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Re: The Atheist's Prayer by TheArranger(m): 7:59pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:I stand corrected on the meaning of "assumption" with regards to science In a philosophical (not scientific, mind you) context however, if you assume God exists, you are committing the logical fallacy of presupposition/assumptive thinking/presumption You're using language that presupposes conclusions into the statements without first showing those statements to be true. Presupposition is a sneaky assumption. It is an unstated assumption. You can't just assume God exists and call it a day. You have to show it This just shows you are being irrational and probably not realizing the reason you don't want to talk about your assumptions. No one likes to expose his or her inner thoughts when they are not rational. Ihedinobi3:Can you please point out where i implied that "the assumption that God is universal is untrue"?. That'd be very helpful. Its also very funny, though not surprising, how you're drawing all these conclusions out of a "supposed" contradiction. You've already conditioned your mind to believe that i'm going to lie and be dishonest even when we haven't started. I'm just shaking my head painfully at this point. You're putting the dead, beaten horse before the cart ... but what do i know, right? Ihedinobi3:@red, humans will want to invent a god because deep down, they want to feel special. They want recognition. They want to be acknowledged. They want to feel like their actions count. Dying patients, bereaved people.... they want to believe that their problems always have an answer. In turn they create this deity who can answer EVERY single one of their prayers. Because they may have problems & they seek justice, they create a deity that watches over them and rewards them for good and punishes them for evil. They project their ego and persona unto this god. That is why this god has emotions like jealousy, anger, joy, remorse etc. Somehow, we know he will be angry with us if we sin and he will rejoice if we repent. Isn't that a god of people who want to be monitored? These are emotions felt by humans and they project these emotions unto said god. I don't see how this strays too much from reality. As for your comment @italics, don't you think religion serves this purpose? Aren't their political philosophies in parts of the world that have a basis in religion? Aren't there laws in certain parts of the world that are guided by religious beliefs? Isn't Theocracy a form of government? Aren't these "imposing their will" on everything around them? By creating this god, they themselves are BECOMING said god by extending their ego to him. Then they use this god to fulfil their selfish intents & desires through laws & commandments and what have you. I don't see how this strays too much from reality. Ihedinobi3:How about intersubjective truths @italics? Also, what is the human ego? It is an insatiable desire for pleasures, rewards, profit for ourselves. Majority would rather live a comfortable life than an uncomfortable life. Majority would rather be praised and complimented than shunned and disgraced. Hopefully this makes sense. Besides this, i'll agree that you may be correct at this point in the majority. Ihedinobi3:Lol. SMH. Ihedinobi3:This should also be a rebuttal to your number 13. I still don't understand how atheism is dishonest. Especially weak atheism, which is my, and most people's, kind of atheism. It's not reasonable for a person to claim that no deities exist (strong atheism, which isn't the discussion here), as that person then bears the burden to prove their claim, which isn't possible. The same burden of proof weighs on the person who says that one or more deities do exist; it, too, is an impossible task. If it was intellectually dishonest to be a weak atheist, then it's also intellectually dishonest to be a weak theist. But since proof that deities do or don't exist is unavailable, how can a person assert one or the other without delving into irrational territory, or at least untenable territory? Would we not identify such assertions as intellectually dishonest since they aren't justified by the available evidence? There's nothing wrong with saying "I believe (or not), but I don't know." Indeed, it seems to me to be the best position, as it avoids the untenable position of having to prove a claim to be true or false when such a demonstration is impossible. @bold Your main issue is you attack the atheists first. Then proceed to use the information you get from the atheists as the problem with atheism. For me, i have issues with both Christianity & christians. And i've given reasons for my dislike of both. You've given reasons for your dislike for atheists but you are yet to explain the dishonesty of atheism, and the only way to do this is to provide evidence of your god. As for atheists attacking christians, it isn’t safe to be an atheist. Some Christians like you tell us that we should be tortured in hell forever because we don’t believe what they do. Lots of love, there! I remember watching a certain american politician on television blaming natural disasters on gays, atheists, and liberals and begging the judgement of God to fall on us. Go to forums like Reddit & 4chan and people ask questions on whether atheists should have freedom of speech or be imprisoned, or even be put to death. Schools try to make children participate in public prayer. Churches try to undermine how parents raise their children by instilling the fear of hell into them. The death penalty for atheism exists in 13 countries. Some preachers in fundamentalism AND evangelicalism have actually called for atheists and gays and others to face the death penalty in the US. Go into any Christian book store. There are lots of titles attacking atheists and atheism. Preachers call us fools, saying we are the enemies and in league with the Devil. And all we want is the freedom of our own conscience and the civil and political rights of a free people. And you think we attack Christians? All we are doing is trying to defend ourselves and our freedoms!!! You want atheists to think Christians are good and kind? Then have them stop attacking everyone who doesn’t believe as they do. How about that? "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them." - Thomas Jefferson Ihedinobi3:Let me rephrase it then: If you provide me with evidence that Jehovah exists, i will believe he exists. That's it. I will be like "Oh, you were right all along". I would love to be a christian but I'm not desperate to worship your god. He's really not that important to me. If you christians weren't infringing on our basic human rights, we couldn't care less about your god to be wasting our time debating with you folks. Atheism has been much more fulfilling to me than Christianity. I don't have to follow restrictive rules based on unproven rumors, i have no fear of hell, i'm not bigoted (wish you could say the same), and i solve problems with reason, not dogma & invisible magicians.... Lol @ the emptiness of atheism when the happiest and richest countries in the world are atheist countries https://www.axios.com/the-worlds-unhappiest-countries-1513301073-e24ee650-db2b-46b2-a548-e5caeb02b43f.html https://news.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx 2 Likes |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by TheArranger(m): 8:01pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:SMDH. This arguments aren't new @green. Same old, same old. The Universe: the existence of the universe does NOT confirm that magic is real. Jehovah, Angels, Demon, Lucifer, Behemoth; they're magical beings. Another thing missing is the demonstration that Jehovah created the universe as a true statement. It’s nothing but a rumor. An unproven assumption if you may. 4 thousand years without being substantiated - that’s a failure rate of 100%. The Conscience: Depends on what you call "god". Some people have this image of what they would like God to be. These people somehow naturally assume everyone on earth knows exactly what they mean when they use this three lettered word called God. There are 4 Abrahamic religions which actually supposed to believe in the same sole Abrahamic deity or God. None of these 4 Abrahamic religions believe in the same sole Abrahamic deity or God. Yet none of these 4 Abrahamic religious followers want to acknowledge that all of their religions were made by humans who simply made up a deity for themselves to worship. If you give power to your beliefs admit it. Such power only came from ones own imagination. The imagination is the conscience. Death: How does your dying show me that God is not a fantasy of yours? The universal fact of death, is hardly “proof” of anything other than the universal fact of death. We've never seen dead people come back and tell us about the afterlife. I'm talking of "thoroughly cold, laying in the ground or mausoleum" dead. I put it to you, sir, that it is the very fact that you have NO EVIDENCE to support your theological opinions, either way, that fosters your characteristic draconian hostility towards those of slightly different opinion. Perhaps i overrated your person and your intelligence before engaging you in discourse but you've proven to me now that i've done nothing but shoot myself in the foot. So thanks for me helping me see that. I also think its quite obvious that you're gradually trying to label me a villain at this point. When i read your statement @red, i couldn't help but burst into uncontrollable laughter . Since you take pleasure in doing this to people, sir, let me now return you the favor. Take offence or not, i really don't care. Say i'm wrong or not, i don't care either because 1. You are a constant strawman when you're talking with people & 2. I'm simply stating what I & everyone who's seen your posts & engaged you has noticed. I think you're very smart. One of the smartest apologists on this website. However, i think you're also a cynical, closeminded fraud who makes up stories and uses special pleading & false equivalences to cover up the gaps in your knowlegde. You conjure up long posts rife with fallacies & word salads to obfuscate atheists and discourage them from responding (this could be intentional or unintentional, but i finally decided to take up this specific challenge you present, hence my response to you here). I think your childhood indoctrination was very insidious hence your overwhelming dogmatism. You call people out when they commit errors but then you go ahead to commit tons of strawmen among other fallacies. You make up lies about people and polish them to make it seem true. You pride in being close-minded and assume everyone else is as stubborn, which is a huge fallacy for even someone of your calibre. You also commit intellectual bullyism. Not that you're the only one who does this, but yours is the most obvious and most frequent. If you're concerned that i'm typing all this to look good on Nairaland, i'll be more than happy to give you my social media contacts so that we can interact properly. Far away from the eyes of the lurkers and members of Nairaland. I'm not interested in looking good. I've repeated over and over that i'm relatively a novice on these matters and i'm a genuine skeptic, but oh well, you just feel like you know everyone more than they know themselves. You just love to beat people to their conclusions and make up lies about them. I wonder how far your dishonest tactics, dogma and baseless intolerance can carry you. Give me the word and i'll mail my contacts to you. Then we'll talk. Till then, this is my final response to you. Oh, and if you're just going to judge me and make assumptions about my motives again, i'd really appreciate if you don't mention me on this website henceforth. IAmSabrina Martinez39 LordReed CAPSLOCKED Johnydon22 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 8:26pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
Martinez39:Your folks do? My folks would ostracize me faster than i can pronounce "Atheism"! |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Martinez39(m): 8:32pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:My mum knows. Because of me, my sister is now an atheist . My brother is too stubborn and a bit illogical. He is still a christian, although in name only ---- the bloody hypocrite . Thankfully, we've all stopped going to church. My mum keeps telling me "whether you like it or not there is god, I am sure god exists blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." She is the only one that goes to church. 1 Like |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 8:36pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
Martinez39:LOL 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by budaatum: 8:39pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Weakling! My entire family knew I was an atheist. They'd be like "let us pray" and buda will leave the room. It was just ridiculous joining them in prayer to a God I knew was a figment of their imagination, and I was not prepared to stand there as if their imaginary emperor wore clothes. Then I went and got my own emperor and clothed it. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 8:54pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
budaatum:Lol. Wish i had the courage though. A few of my friends know.... But daddy, mummy & all my bros,.... Hell. No. Telling them i'm a cultist would be better 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Bojack(m): 9:01pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:lol, most of friends already know but when my folks found out that I was an atheist they they were thinking of disowning me. 1 Like |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Martinez39(m): 9:09pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:If you are not 100% sure that they will take it nicely, don't tell them. My sympathy, church services and programmes might be boring and be a serious pain in the ass. However, there is a way to kill this boredom and make the experience worthwhile as much as possible. If you attend a pentecostal church or a new generation, observe those that speak in tongues and roll on the floor. Observe them closely and do what I always do -------------- laugh 1 Like 1 Share
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Re: The Atheist's Prayer by LordReed(m): 9:14pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
TheArranger: LoL! |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 9:16pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
Martinez39:LOL . Don't worry bout me, Martinez. I don't stay with my old man. I stay with my immediate elder bro and he's just like yours: a "christian" 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Martinez39(m): 9:19pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Great. 1 Like |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by LordReed(m): 9:37pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina: My family except my mum knows. She's not fit medically so I was advised not to tell her yet. Its not imperative that they know, judge for yourself when the time is right. 1 Like |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by TheArranger(m): 9:43pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
LordReed:I don't always go into long rants like this. But people who admit they are being intentionally dogmatic & bigoted can really get on my nerves |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 9:58pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
LordReed:Exactly. Matters like this are very delicate. Ihedinobi3:My parents are staunch christians. They're not gonna hear anything other than Jesus. That said, i'm not them. If i have a child and he/she happens to fall in love with your lord, i wouldn't restrict him/her. Obviously i will keep questioning them and not hide my perplexities about what they learn or believe, but i won't censor them in anyway. Its their choice and i'll still love them. I respect other's opinions a lot more than you think. 1 Like |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by budaatum: 10:03pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Courage! I went to Church for 12 or so years, Bible Study too and everyone knew as i never hid the fact I was an atheist from anyone. What amused me most about them was their misunderstanding of Scripture. Then one of my siblings who's a pastor and is married to a pastor said she'd never read it from beginning to end and that was the instant I became a theistically minded individual and began my God is God on here. I always had courage I guess. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by CAPSLOCKED: 10:08pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina: HAHA.. PEOPLE HAVE REAL PROBLEMS. A PARENT WILL LOVE AND HARBOUR A THIEF AND A MURDERER, AND EVEN PROTECT HIM FROM THE LAW. BUT IF HE'S GAY OR IRRELIGIOUS, OR BELONGS WITH A DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS SECT THAN IT BECOMES A REAL ISSUE. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 10:11pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
CAPSLOCKED:So Damn True |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by LordReed(m): 10:12pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
TheArranger: Don't worry Ihedinobi3's characteristics are unmistakable. |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by CAPSLOCKED: 10:44pm On Apr 07, 2019 |
IAmSabrina: WHEN YOU LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT YOU'VE BECOME, THEY BECOME WORRIED ABOUT YOU, AND SCARED OF YOU. THEY THINK YOU'RE SICK AND GOING MENTAL. THEY SEE YOU AS A DISEASE, AS DIRT. THEY BEGIN TO BELIEVE YOU'RE POSSESSED BY DEMONS, AND ATTRIBUTE EVERY BAD SITUATION (EVEN COMMON HEADACHE) TO THE DEVIL, WHILE THE GOOD ONES THEY CLAIM IT'S JUST GOD STILL RENDERING YOU MERCY DESPITE YOUR FLAWS. THEY BECOME WORRIED THAT YAHWEH MIGHT CAUSE VERY BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN TO YOU, AND YOU COULD DIE ANY MOMENT AND SURELY YOUR PORTION IS HELL. DON'T EVEN TELL THEM YOU'VE LEFT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO JOIN REDEEM. OR YOU'VE LEFT DEEPER LIFE TO JOIN MFM. DON'T EVEN LET THEM KNOW YOU'VE LEFT CHRISTIAN MOTHERS (CATHOLIC) TO JOIN CWO (STILL CATHOLIC)... THEY'LL THINK SOMETHING HAS TAKEN OVER YOU IF YOU DO ANYTHING A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY. IN MY FAMILY IT'LL BE BETTER FOR YOU TO JOIN A KIDNAPPERS GANG THAN FOR YOU TO DO ANY OF THE THINGS ABOVE... WORSE IS IF YOU MIGRATE TO ISLAM FROM CHRISTIANITY. YOU BECOME DEAD IN THEIR EYES WHEN YOU DO THAT. FOR ALL THEIR WASTED EMOTIONS AND STRESS THEY GO THROUGH KEEPING ALL THESE FEELINGS AND CARRYING THE BURDEN OF BULLSHĮT RELIGIOUS SUPERSTITIOUS BELIEFS, I PITY THEM TOO MUCH TO LET THEM KNOW I THINK DIFFERENTLY. A LOT HAS CHANGED SINCE I STARTED ATTENDING CHURCH ONLY ONCE IN 2 TO 3 YEARS, SO YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I GET IN THE NEWS FOR BECOMING I'VE LOST RELATIONSHIPS, FRIENDSHIPS AND LOVED ONES, AND I'VE HAD ENOUGH. SO I'M LEAVING ALL THESE IN MY POCKET TILL THE TIME I REALLY NEED THEM. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Danhumprey: 4:08pm On Apr 08, 2019 |
Martinez39:Mom knows and she's liberal and lenient? No surprises. Is Dad around too? |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Ihedinobi3: 5:30pm On Apr 08, 2019 |
Michellekabod1:It's all right. Thank you for your apology. |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Martinez39(m): 5:38pm On Apr 08, 2019 |
Danhumprey:Dad is late. The iron man would have roasted me alive if he knew I was an atheist. |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Ihedinobi3: 5:43pm On Apr 08, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:My parents are staunch Christians too. But I didn't have an easy time committing to following the Bible with them in the picture. There are Christian parents who are magnanimous toward incredibly wayward children, even to atheistic children. It's easy to say what you say. As it is right now, you may be having a hard enough time making your peace with the fact that other people make their choices independent of you. When it is your own child doing that, it is considerably harder to let them. Additionally, nobody particularly likes having someone looking over their shoulder all the time, so your continued questioning might not quite be received in the manner you might expect. Point is, this is not something atheists suffer specially. Even Christians suffer it. 1 Like |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Ihedinobi3: 6:02pm On Apr 08, 2019 |
TheArranger, since that was your last response, and one that is answered in the post you were responding to, I'm not sure it is worth the cost in time and energy to essentially repeat myself. If you wish to talk to me privately, my email is in my signature and on my profile. It won't be a problem at all. |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Danhumprey: 6:29pm On Apr 08, 2019 |
Martinez39:thought as much. In my case, both parents are alived and none will hear of my denouncing religions, the religion they have so grown into and embraced. |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 6:43am On Apr 10, 2019 |
IAmSabrina:Yeah it's understandable considering how most Christians think, inclusive of those here in Nairaland, for as long as you "believe" in Jesus and say that He is Lord with your mouths and lips, even though you are very wicked, an arm robber, ritualist, cultist, rapist, fraudster, adulterer etc., it is better than being an atheist even though you are righteous and not wicked for to them there can never be a righteous atheist. In my own case though, I think that my christian parents may have preffered an atheist who's loyal to them than a Jesus' disciple as myself who obviously wouldn't be because I hence cannot be loyal to two masters at the same time. So if you think being an atheist is hard, try being a disciple of Jesus and you'd perhaps see that the cross of atheism may even be an easier one to carry than that of a being a Jesus disciple. So sis you don't have to tell me what it feels like to be different from the norm, for as you already acknowledged here it's quite a lonely place. But perhaps your belief that atheism is worth the trouble, or the company of fellow atheists etc. is what keeps you going in that respect. Mine is God presence and acknowledgment, for that means everything to me, because that's what my satisfaction and sense of fulfillment is hinged on. So just to keep that constant is enough inspiration for me to keep being the disciple of Jesus that I am, and to keep doing and being what it implies to be a disciple of Jesus in spite of all the opposition, persecution, mockery, humiliation, suffering, etc., that it brings my way, for just maintaining the statusquo is worth it all. For that is what has kept me going in Nairaland in spite of the extent of opposition and dissaproval I face here especially from the Nairaland Christians, for since I began operating the jesusjnr moniker in Nairaland alone, if you know how many times that God has shown me Himself that what I do here is very personal and important to Him, you would understand sis why I wouldn't trade it for anything else in the world, not even just what Nairaland has to offer. So as I said to someone, I know it's not really easy a times to stand for what you believe in, but if you really think it's worth it, you should give it your everything, for the extent to which you commit to something, is a proof of the value you have placed on that thing. And speaking of courage, when I first started on this course of being a disciple of Jesus, the first persons that came to my mind were my christian parents, to prove that they were the greatest threat my decision to become a Jesus disciple faced - it was then it became clear to me what Jesus meant by "if someone doesn't hate his parents etc., he cannot be His disciple - for I certainly didn't have the courage to face them with it. But I asked God to help me, because I didn't have the courage to face them with that decision but that I was willing. And fast forward to today, over sixteen years later, where I could face just about any damn body with that decision, yeah, God gave the courage I needed to make good my willingness. And I would have suggested that you asked Him to give you the courage to be able to do same in your beliefs, but since you don't believe He exists, that would be contradictory to your beliefs. Nonetheless I hope you're able to find the courage you need for that purpose sis, because you would certainly need it at some point. But just incase, if you don't find it there, then you should try God even though you don't believe He exists, because what would you stand you stand to lose? |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by TheArranger(m): 4:17pm On Apr 11, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:Check your mail pls |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Ihedinobi3: 11:57am On Apr 12, 2019 |
TheArranger:Responded. |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by Nobody: 12:40am On May 04, 2019 |
CAPSLOCKED: That's my guy CAPSY. Preach brother, preach |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by hayoholla(m): 8:00pm On May 19, 2019 |
budaatum: To each, his own reality. In the end everything is a paradox. |
Re: The Atheist's Prayer by budaatum: 8:09pm On May 19, 2019 |
hayoholla:Make up your reality and try crossing a very busy road and you'd soon realise some things are real. 1 Like 1 Share |
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