frosbel:

Thanks , we cannot be right all the time, but one thing I am certain off , is that God never meant to confuse us about himself.

Anything of confusion is of the devil.

The Trinity assigns 2 Spirits to God, God himself who is Spirit and the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity also assigns positions in a sort of hierarchy thereby relegating the Holy Spirit who in my opinion is the Spirit of God to the bottom.

Scripture does not support this position, we do not have multiple thrones in Heaven where God sits separate to the Holy Spirit.

God is ONE and so the Jews are bewildered by the Christian stance and view us as Polytheists.

On this one , I beg to differ.

thanks

Mr_Anony:
No my brother, God's nature of Trinity is not one of those things a christian can "beg to differ" on.

The problem with rejecting Trinity is that once you do that, you will immediately start to discount some parts of the bible as fake and then gradually the bible looses it's authority for you and from there, it's a steady decline into apostasy.

I'm pretty occupied at the moment but I'll make out time and we'll properly have this chat.

Mr_Anony:
No my brother, God's nature of Trinity is not one of those things a christian can "beg to differ" on.

The problem with rejecting Trinity is that once you do that, you will immediately start to discount some parts of the bible as fake and then gradually the bible looses it's authority for you and from there, it's a steady decline into apostasy.

I'm pretty occupied at the moment but I'll make out time and we'll properly have this chat.

frosbel: [/quote][quote author=frosbel]

Ihedinobi:

May Father bless your efforts, my brother.

@Frosbel
It is quite difficult for me to address any argument or comment you post. I address them with questions to encourage you to consider possible oversights in explanations you accept as true.

For instance, if you insist that Jesus, and not the Trinity, is the cornerstone of Christianity, then you have to explain Who or What Jesus is. But if I engaged you in a debate presenting Scriptures that show that in the Man Jesus, the full Godhead is embodied, then you would reply with Scriptures that appear to confound the concept of a Godhead. If I try to show non-contradiction between the two bodies of Scripture, you will accuse me of employing human wisdom if I disagree with you. Then you will proceed to do the exact same thing and where things become difficult, declare that it is a mystery that we cannot know at all.

That's the problem. So instead of starting such a war that will lead to a ripping up of the Bible, I ask questions. In the case where you say that Jesus is the cornerstone of Christianity as against the Trinity, I'd ask what you think the following two passages mean.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV

. . .that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself. . .


Hebrews 9:14 KJV

. . .Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God. . .


I have understanding of the Nature Of God. This understanding is not full yet, but it's still incontrovertible by any argument this side of Life. How so? It is not understanding that was reached by argument. It was understanding that was received as a gift. And one that I have tested by argument and questions and which has stood unwavering and confounded the arguments and questions.

So, I am not interested in trying to convince you about it. I am only interested in proving the perfectness of the foundation of your position. It is what I have learned to do with discussions about doctrines with Christians.

The proof that the person holding the position that is being proved with questions and arguments is a Christian is their submission to test.

i.chuka:

@FROSBEL
you might be right about the verse i quoted(1John5:7)earlier,but it doesnt change the fact that the Holy Spirit is a person.

Goshen360:
Is God, the father called God in the Bible? YES or NO

Is Jesus called God in the bible? Yes or NO

Is the Holy Spirit called God in the bible? YES or NO

Answers to these questions will end all this arguments. Thank you.

Goshen360: @ Frosbel, I hope you are not ignoring my question intentionally?

frosbel:

Okay , you are my friend, let me answer you

Only the Father is GOD. Father GOD has Heaven as his throne and reaches out to us through his Spirit which is really the Holy Spirit, self explanatory , since God is Holy.

examples :

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." - Genesis 6:3

"This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear.'" - Haggai 2:5


So the Holy Spirit is GOD because it is actually HIM, in other words the Father's Spirit or presence on a universal scale such as in the church or in the life of believers.


Jesus Christ is NOT GOD in the sense that he is NOT YAHWEH.


But he is the Lord of Lord and King of Kings who will rule the new Heaven and Earth after crushing all the present earthly kingdoms.

He is also the Alpha and Omega, the first born from the DEAD and our everlasting Redeemer.


In summary :

Is Jesus called God in the bible? Yes or NO = If you mean YAHWEH , then NO

Is the Holy Spirit called God in the bible? YES or NO = YES but only because he is GOD, i.e the Spirit of GOD

okeyxyz: Clearly the new-testament talks about three distinct entities(Let's not call them persons now. I guess that's the contention), God the Father, who we all agree is not Jesus, then jesus himself who is "the son", then there is the Holy Spirit which(whom??) jesus categorically says would come after himself and by whose power and guidiance the apostles claim to be led and perform miracles. So we have The Father, Jesus and Holy-Spirit, each unique and different from the other. Why does @Frosbel & co try so hard to abolish the Holy-Spirit and cling only to Father & Son?

Ihedinobi: Frosbel, believe me when I say that I do not cherish arguments over interpretation of the Bible. They annoy me to no end. So I still will not respond with arguments.

Permit me to make one observation first. This current position which essentially refuses acknowledgment of the Godhead is not the same as the position you held on your thread on the Trinity. You degenerated from that position to throwing out the place of the Holy Spirit and now in this last post of yours Jesus's Divinity has come into question. You do know that there's nothing between this current position and throwing God out altogether, don't you? In fact, once one member of the Godhead has been thrown out, God can no longer be truly accommodated and atheism aka idolatry sets in. The position of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a pretension at best. What they have amounts to a Godless Christianity, which very concept is nonsense. What use is God when He's an utterly remote reality?

[/b]

It's a question I've asked before on my own thread about the Trinity.

As for the questions that you asked, my answer is encapsulated in this question: [b]how did Jesus's death suffice to reconcile fallen humanity to God?

frosbel:


Jesus's divinity has never been under question.

What has been under contention is if Jesus Christ as Lord is also the one and ONLY TRUE GOD.

The Holy Spirit is not separate from GOD but is his Spirit.

Goshen360:

This is what am trying to correct on the other thread. You fall for this error because you admit God is a PERSON and have BODILY FORM hence, you conclude God has a Spirit like man. When you admit the words of Jesus that God is Spirit, then you will need to answer the question how it is possible from anywhere in the bible that a Spirit (God) will have another Spirit. If you believe God is Spirit, and Spirit cannot have another Spirit, then you will re-visit this concept you have about Trinity and see the Holy Spirit as distinct from God, the father and God's Spirit.

frosbel:


Jesus's divinity has never been under question.

What has been under contention is if Jesus Christ as Lord is also the one and ONLY TRUE GOD.

The Holy Spirit is not separate from GOD but is his Spirit.





Absolutely 100%.

His death has satisfied God and redeemed us from the curse of SIN and DEATH.

Ihedinobi:

I'm sorry but the question was "how?" not "did?" How did His Death do so?

frosbel:


God's Spirit is not seperate from God himself.

God's Spirit is GOD's influence, Power in the universe / world.

They are not TWO.

If God is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit then we have 2 Spirits , right Also our Lord Jesus is a life giving Spirit , so that makes 3 Spirits now


Put that catholic doctrine behind you bro .

I end my debate here !

frosbel:

Read your bible , the answer should be there !

Goshen360: ^^^
I guess you and this brother (okeyxyz) are saying the same thing to our brother Frosbel. This brother said on the other thread and I kind of agree with his view and yours.



@ Frosbel, e be like say you don read/study too much and now confused . Abeg take am easy o.

Image123: obviously, fros has never experienced the real Holy Spirit, else he won't be talking about Him being just a force and not a person. had the deeper life form of godliness with no power. my sure view BTW

At times the claims of Trinitarian apologists are downright ridiculous.

How many times have you heard a Trinitarian claim the Magi bowed down before baby Jesus because they knew he was God? How many times have you heard them claim that nobody would do such a thing unless he was indeed God? How many times have you wondered if they bowed down before him simply because he was the King of the Jews? And have you ever wondered if they, and even the Jewish people themselves, considered it appropriate to bow down before a King? Do Trinitarians really expect us to believe the Jews did not know anything about a three person God because God had not yet "fully revealed himself" but the pagan Magi were well aware that Jesus was God?

And when Mary his mother changed baby Jesus' diapers did she really think she was changing God's diapers? Or was Jesus' own mother not privy to the same insight as the Trinitarians? The Bible says Jesus was subject to Joseph and Mary. It must have been quite difficult for them to have such authority over God. "God, go to your room!" And are we really to believe that Joseph was guarding God from Herod when he fled to Egypt with little Jesus? And when Joseph and Mary realized they had lost Jesus on their trip home from Jerusalem, are we really to believe they were worried they had inadvertently left God behind? And what was God doing growing in wisdom and favor with God and men anyway?

Are we really to accept the Trinitarian translation of Hebrews 1:8, "To the Son he says, 'Your throne O God is forever and ever" and blindly fail to notice the very next verse would then refer to God's God? Are we really supposed to be completely blind to the fact that this would have God the Father speaking to God the Son and reminding God the Son that he has a God? Are we really to accept the Trinitarian "only begotten God" manuscript variant of John 1:18 when it says this only begotten God reveals God the Father who happens to be the unbegotten God? Are we really supposed to stick our tongue in cheek and not see that this would result in a begotten God revealing an unbegotten God. That would be two Gods, one begotten and one not. How many doses of denial do they expect us to take?

Are we really to pretend Jesus was omniscient, all knowing, when we are told that he increased in wisdom? Are we really supposed to believe this preposterous claim when Jesus himself said only the Father knew the day and hour of his return? Did the word "only" lose its meaning last night? Just to what extent to Trinitarians expect us to deceive ourselves?

And when Trinitarians respond to John 20:17 by pointing out that Jesus said, "My God and your God" but did not say "My God and our God," just what exactly are they suggesting? That Jesus' God is a different God than our God? What difference would it make? Isn't "My God and Your God" simply an emphatic way of saying "Our God?" And if you only believe in one God then there is no difference in the identity of "My God" and "your God" is there? Or perhaps their entire goal was to confuse the issue to avoid the implications of Jesus words? After all, he is saying that our God is the same God as his God. Who was his God? Just what are Trinitarian apologists trying to do here?

frosbel:
God's Spirit is GOD's influence, Power in the universe / world.

aletheia:
. . .and thus is the obfuscation laid bare.

Reminds me of these quotes: "A fanatic is a man who consciously over compensates a secret doubt"; and "A fanatic is a man who, when he's lost sight of his purpose, redoubles his effort."

The Holy Spirit is not a "Person" you say. . .and yet He is spoken of in the Scriptures using the masculine personal pronoun rather than the impersonal form:
1. He descended bodily on Jesus at Jordan.
2. He speaks. . .
3. He grieves. . .
4. He teaches. . .
5. He reminds. . .
6. He wills. . .
7 &c

Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
(Act 8:29)
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
(Act 13:2)

As it is written it is not good to have zeal without knowledge. And you do bear a striking similarity to those of whom this was written: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Fr0sbel:
Persecute me for all I care, the truth must have it's way.

Fr0sbel:
Ah okay , so this Spirit is different from God the Spirit.

Fr0sbel:
You are utterly confused.

Fr0sbel:
So when God said he will pour his Spirit upon all flesh and which was fulfilled from the day of penetecost, whose Spirit was this, another Spirit called the Holy Spirit.

Fr0sbel:
Mate , I do not take lectures from Calvinists, those who believe in the OSAS doctrine ( Once saved always saved ).

Fr0sbel:
And by the way can you explain to the audience, the spirit behind Calvin when he ordered the death of Michael Servetus for heresy because he rejected the trinity doctrine.

Fr0sbel:
Just goes to show the spirit behind your pagan doctrine, not the Spirit of GOD for sure.

Fr0sbel:
Bye.