Ihedinobi:
For instance, histories of the Church, to say nothing of the Bible, hold that the "doctrine" of the Trinity is older than the Roman Catholic Church.

As another instance, is all tradition wrong? Tradition is that which holds true no matter the age or era in which it is found. In other words, tradition is principle.

Therefore, it will not change. Expressions of it might, but not its essence. True tradition is not a respecter of time, person or political correctness. Does that remind you of anything or anyone?

aletheia:

Perhaps in Frosbel's personal bible version. . .the Holy Spirit is different from God. . .hence his confusion.

Calvinists? How ironic. What a Pharisee and hypocrite your are. You are quick to attach labels to people and yet your displays and temperament is exactly like that of Calvin. . .arrogant, intolerant and convinced that he alone has the right of the matter. You are a true descendant of your father John Calvin.

As Jesus said to some like you Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

The same spirit that actuates you Frosbel the spiritual son of Calvin.

. Your true colours. . .exactly what your father Calvin would have used as justification for killing Servetus. Methinks Frosbel doth protest too much.

Apparently I hit a little too close to home with these comments:
"A fanatic is a man who consciously over compensates a secret doubt"; and "A fanatic is a man who, when he's lost sight of his purpose, redoubles his effort."

Look here: Go and exorcise your doubts through diligent Bible study and Prayer and stop coming here to lead astray the brethren.

Au contraire, monsieur. You and I are far from done. Will be seeing you around.

frosbel: God's Spirit is GOD's influence, Power in the universe / world.

aletheia: Apropos the topic:

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

A person has the following characteristics:
1. A mind - able to think and act upon their thinking
2. Their own will - self identity
3. Emotions - able to act cognitively

The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13. The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Act 13:2)

But of course Frosbel's agenda of deception would not permit him to see that. Frosbel's Holy Spirit is not God, but a force like in Buddhism, an influence.


The Holy Spirit comes alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. Paracletos is used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles.

He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identity.

Looking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus.
Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints,"

1 Cor.12:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills.

Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches"
Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!"

So Frosbel tell us how an Influence has a Mind, and a Will, and Speaks?

Holy Spirit Absurdities


If the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity then:

Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with [the third person of the Trinity] in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge (Exodus 31:1-3).


Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your [third person of the Trinity] from me. (Psalm 51:11).


Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My [third person of the Trinity] upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1).


I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My [third person of the Trinity] on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:29).


It will come about after this that I will pour out My [third person of the Trinity] on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (Joel 2:28).


"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with [the third person of the Trinity] and fire. (Matthew 3:11).


Jesus, full of [the third person of the Trinity], returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness (Luke 4:1).


If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give [the third person of the Trinity to those who ask Him? (Luke 11:13).


For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives [the third person of the Trinity] withthout measure. (John 3:34).


Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of [the third person of the Trinity], Jesus has poured forth this which you both see and hear. (Acts 2:33).


Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive [the third person of the Trinity] for [the third person of the Trinity] had not yet fallen on any of them... Then they laid their hands on them and they received [the third person of the Trinity]... Now when Simon saw that [the third person of the Trinity] was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money (Acts 8:14-15).


While Peter was still saying this, [the third person of the Trinity] fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of [the third person of the Trinity] had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received [the third person of the Trinity] just as we have?" (Acts 10:43-47).


But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have [the third person of the Trinity] (1 Corinthians 7:40).

Did you receive [the third person of the Trinity] by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in [the third person of the Trinity], are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3).


By this you know [the third person of the Trinity]: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2).


I was in [the third person of the Trinity] on the Lord's day (Revelation 1:10).

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/hsabsurdities.html

Fr0sbel:
So tell me High Priest aletheia , you say GOD is ONE.

Father God = 1
Jesus Christ = 1
Holy Spirit = 1

Fr0sbel:
God is Spirit. . .

aletheia:
Pope Frosbel. Is that your attempt to reduce your confusion to arithmetic of human derivation and logic?
I know for sure this:
The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God. Simple. The scriptures are unequivocally clear on this. . .even the OT is unambiguous about it:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9:6)

aletheia:

God is Spirit. . .you have been declaiming throughout this thread and yet fail to grasp the essential truth that God is Spirit therefore the Holy Spirit is God.

frosbel:
You are a Polytheist not a Monotheist.

You believe in 3 GODs not ONE.

Synonymous parallelism. A line strengthens, develop, reinforces or repeat the line before it.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth;
and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (KJV)

Isaiah 44:22a

I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,

your sins like the morning mist.(NIV)

aletheia:
So says, Frosbel, the Muslim wannabe.

H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

Ihedinobi: Aletheia, I haven't seen evidence on goshen360's thread about the gap theory that you have continued to follow it, that's why I'm informing you here that I intend to start a thread on the Age of the Earth, probably in the science section. I'd love to discuss it some more with you and Mr Anony. Information from the Bible and scientific findings will be very welcome. I sincerely hope that you will oblige me when I call upon you.

frosbel:
1. God said he is not a man that he should LIE. How did God himself then become a MAN

2. James clearly said that God cannot be tempted , yet Jesus was tempted

3. God cannot die, but Jesus died and God raised him from the dead

4. Jesus emphatically said that God is greater then Him, what exactly does this mean ?

aletheia: Next will come the denial of the hypostasis of Jesus. . .the seeds of which are already evident in some of your posts on this thread

frosbel:
1. God said he is not a man that he should LIE. How did God himself then become a MAN

frosbel:
2. James clearly said that God cannot be tempted , yet Jesus was tempted

frosbel:
3. God cannot die, but Jesus died and God raised him from the dead

frosbel:
4. Jesus emphatically said that God is greater then Him, what exactly does this mean ?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:

Sweetnecta:
@Aletheia, old chap, how are you and the family?

aletheia:
Are you saying that I am an adherent of the Gap theory? Perhaps you need to read my post again on that thread. Thanks.

Ihedinobi:

No, sir, I'm not saying that. On that matter, you and I are of the same persuasion.

I am only requesting a scientific discussion of the age of the earth using information from the Bible and established findings in the scientific community with you and Mr Anony. I hope that you can indulge me, sir.

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,


So the Mark 12:29 is in reference to the Father BUT the scriptures clearly call the Son, God and also calls the Holy Ghost, God.

Image123: sad times really, talk about drawing back. Just to throw in though, how Jesus compared the Holy Ghost to Himself, calling Him Another Comforter.

free123: Alatheia thanks for those verses up there. they clearly show Jesus as God, no doubt.

One line says that Jesus did not take the nature of angels but that of men. this clearly indicates that Jesus is more than angels. i wonder if Jehovah's witneses who claim that Jesus is an angel cannot see this and other verses alatheia has been able to quote here.

for frosbel
what do u stand to gain from all these threads? Is dis d same u who opened a thread on d divinity of Christ, showing how Jesus is God, how he at times talked like a man and other times like God? Have u become a JW or an Eckist lately by saying that God's Spirit is His influence or power on earth? if d Holy Spirit is not a person, why d pronoun - He?

frosbel:

New International Version (©1984)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one - Mark 12:29

Ephesians 4:4-6
New International Version (NIV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


You are playing gymnastics with words.

Both Mark and Ephesians say that GOD is ONE. What are you trying to say, that it does not mean what it says but another thing.

In Ephesians , it also added one Lord , and we know this Lord is Christ Jesus.

Why are you so hell bent on attributing 3 persons to one GOD ? How can it be ONE when it is 3.

Absurd !!

I am waiting for the day you will discard this catholic heresy.

The true belief is : Holy Spirit is the personal, operational presence and power of God that is given to all believers through Jesus Christ.

frosbel:
I am in the minority which means I am safe

frosbel: Trinitarians let us do some maths. . .
Can you please help me here or am I missing something.

aletheia:
Is this the crutch you lean on? The Sadducees were a minority, you know. . .so I guess by your logic, they were "safe"?

Your video there makes such a big to do about houtos and autos and at 5:23 makes this statement: "Absolutely nothing in the Greek indicates a person is in view", whereas much earlier it claims that both words may be used for both a person and an inanimate object. Seems the author is confused. . .and it is clear that he starts from a pre-determined conclusion and seeks to panel beat the scriptures to suit his own desires. . .else how do we explain his glaring silence on these words: the Word was God.
Logically if the Word was God, it would indicate that Word is indeed a person and is the person kept in view by houtos and autos. The video ignores these words the Word was God. because it demolishes its premise.

Moreover, the video attempts to obfuscate by claiming it doesn't say:
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.
And why should the scriptures use Jesus in John 1:1 - 3, when clearly it is talking about the pre-Incarnate Word of God. Jesus is the name He bears on earth. . .as clearly shown in Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. He has other names in Heaven such as the Word!
Indeed John 1 shows how the Word who was at the beginning, the Word who was with God, the Word who was God became flesh. . .and so from verse 17 on we see but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The unity of the scriptures is plain to behold and so in Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

. . .and his name is called The Word of God.

QED

Well, that doesn't sound like an inanimate, impersonal, spoken word to me.

Here is a question for you, Frosbel (though, I notice, you haven't answered a single one I asked you - but you expect others to answer your questions).

If the Word in John 1:1 is the impersonal and spoken word as your video claims and you agree, explain these words of Jesus:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


You have obviously missed something. God is not a vector or scalar in Euclidean space that is subject to your arithmetic. God is a Spirit.

frosbel:




All this just to explain what is supposed to be a single concept.


You are truly going round in circles.