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34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Fr0sbel: 10:02am On Sep 07, 2012
Ihedinobi:
For instance, histories of the Church, to say nothing of the Bible, hold that the "doctrine" of the Trinity is older than the Roman Catholic Church.

And where exactly ?

Who coined the term Trinity , when and where.

I mean why are we trying to interject meanings into the inerrant word of God which is made plain for all to know by God's wisdom.

As another instance, is all tradition wrong? Tradition is that which holds true no matter the age or era in which it is found. In other words, tradition is principle.

"And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others." - Mark 7:13

What matters is scripture not tradition , this is my opinion.


Therefore, it will not change. Expressions of it might, but not its essence. True tradition is not a respecter of time, person or political correctness. Does that remind you of anything or anyone?

Tradition is precisely the reason we are in this mess today.

A concoction of tradition handed down through the ages has caused immense confusion in the body of Christ.

Are you glad with this state of affairs where we have over 30,000 denominations not to talk of ministries with most contradicting each other.



Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
Mark 7:9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Fr0sbel: 10:14am On Sep 07, 2012
aletheia:

Perhaps in Frosbel's personal bible version. . .the Holy Spirit is different from God. . .hence his confusion.


God is Spirit, and those who worship him will do so in spirit and truth.


God poured out HIS Spirit on the day of pentecost and it is this power from on high that anointed his disciples to preach the word and perform miraculous wonders.



Calvinists? How ironic. What a Pharisee and hypocrite your are. You are quick to attach labels to people and yet your displays and temperament is exactly like that of Calvin. . .arrogant, intolerant and convinced that he alone has the right of the matter. You are a true descendant of your father John Calvin.


But I do not hold unto the tenets of Calvin, while you do. For example eternal hell, and the immortal soul , once saved forever saved.

These are not my beliefs.



As Jesus said to some like you Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


The Power of God is his Spirit.


The same spirit that actuates you Frosbel the spiritual son of Calvin.


grin

You must be up to one of your numerous jokes.



grin. Your true colours. . .exactly what your father Calvin would have used as justification for killing Servetus. Methinks Frosbel doth protest too much.


Protest

Nay 'ol boy.



Apparently I hit a little too close to home with these comments:
"A fanatic is a man who consciously over compensates a secret doubt"; and "A fanatic is a man who, when he's lost sight of his purpose, redoubles his effort."


I have no doubts.


God is one as my Lord and Saviour rightly said.

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:29

So tell me High Priest aletheia , you say GOD is ONE.

Father God = 1
Jesus Christ = 1
Holy Spirit = 1

1+1+1 = 3

But according to our resident professor, 1+1+1 = 1





But how can this be, seeing that God is ONE but yet 3 .


American Wonder if you ask me grin



Look here: Go and exorcise your doubts through diligent Bible study and Prayer and stop coming here to lead astray the brethren.


You mean protect them from false teachers and prophets , who would rather expound tradition than scripture.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.


Au contraire, monsieur. You and I are far from done. Will be seeing you around.

I am here as always , ready to take headon false teachers, so your wish is my pleasure. wink
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 10:24am On Sep 07, 2012
Apropos the topic:

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

A person has the following characteristics:
1. A mind - able to think and act upon their thinking
2. Their own will - self identity
3. Emotions - able to act cognitively

The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13. The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Act 13:2)

But of course Frosbel's agenda of deception would not permit him to see that. Frosbel's Holy Spirit is not God, but a force like in Buddhism, an influence.
frosbel: God's Spirit is GOD's influence, Power in the universe / world.

The Holy Spirit comes alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. Paracletos is used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles.

He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identity.

Looking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus.
Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints,"

1 Cor.12:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills.

Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches"
Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!"

So Frosbel tell us how an Influence has a Mind, and a Will, and Speaks?

1 Like

Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 10:33am On Sep 07, 2012
I softened on you because of a beloved brother of mine. I gave you wiggle room to escape your condition, but if I answer you from now on, I will stamp the Lord's authority on every word I speak. You need not believe that I have it.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 10:35am On Sep 07, 2012
aletheia: Apropos the topic:

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

A person has the following characteristics:
1. A mind - able to think and act upon their thinking
2. Their own will - self identity
3. Emotions - able to act cognitively

The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13. The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Act 13:2)

But of course Frosbel's agenda of deception would not permit him to see that. Frosbel's Holy Spirit is not God, but a force like in Buddhism, an influence.


The Holy Spirit comes alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. Paracletos is used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles.

He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identity.

Looking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus.
Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints,"

1 Cor.12:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills.

Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches"
Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!"

So Frosbel tell us how an Influence has a Mind, and a Will, and Speaks?


You are a Polytheist not a Monotheist.

You believe in 3 GODs not ONE.

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:29

So tell me High Priest aletheia , you say GOD is ONE.

Father God = 1
Jesus Christ = 1
Holy Spirit = 1

1+1+1 = 3

But according to our resident professor, 1+1+1 = 1





But how can this be, seeing that God is ONE but yet 3 .


American Wonder if you ask me grin
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 10:35am On Sep 07, 2012
Holy Spirit Absurdities


If the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity then:

Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with [the third person of the Trinity] in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge (Exodus 31:1-3).


Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your [third person of the Trinity] from me. (Psalm 51:11).


Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My [third person of the Trinity] upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1).


I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My [third person of the Trinity] on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:29).


It will come about after this that I will pour out My [third person of the Trinity] on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (Joel 2:28).


"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with [the third person of the Trinity] and fire. (Matthew 3:11).


Jesus, full of [the third person of the Trinity], returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness (Luke 4:1).


If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give [the third person of the Trinity to those who ask Him? (Luke 11:13).


For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives [the third person of the Trinity] withthout measure. (John 3:34).


Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of [the third person of the Trinity], Jesus has poured forth this which you both see and hear. (Acts 2:33).


Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive [the third person of the Trinity] for [the third person of the Trinity] had not yet fallen on any of them... Then they laid their hands on them and they received [the third person of the Trinity]... Now when Simon saw that [the third person of the Trinity] was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money (Acts 8:14-15).


While Peter was still saying this, [the third person of the Trinity] fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of [the third person of the Trinity] had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received [the third person of the Trinity] just as we have?" (Acts 10:43-47).


But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have [the third person of the Trinity] (1 Corinthians 7:40).

Did you receive [the third person of the Trinity] by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in [the third person of the Trinity], are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3).


By this you know [the third person of the Trinity]: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2).


I was in [the third person of the Trinity] on the Lord's day (Revelation 1:10).

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/hsabsurdities.html
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 10:39am On Sep 07, 2012
Fr0sbel:
So tell me High Priest aletheia , you say GOD is ONE.

Father God = 1
Jesus Christ = 1
Holy Spirit = 1
Pope Frosbel. Is that your attempt to reduce your confusion to arithmetic of human derivation and logic?
I know for sure this:
The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God. Simple. The scriptures are unequivocally clear on this. . .even the OT is unambiguous about it:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9:6)
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 10:45am On Sep 07, 2012
Fr0sbel:
God is Spirit. . .

God is Spirit. . .you have been declaiming throughout this thread and yet fail to grasp the essential truth that God is Spirit therefore the Holy Spirit is God.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 10:48am On Sep 07, 2012
aletheia:
Pope Frosbel. Is that your attempt to reduce your confusion to arithmetic of human derivation and logic?
I know for sure this:
The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God. Simple. The scriptures are unequivocally clear on this. . .even the OT is unambiguous about it:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9:6)

Now that you have calmed down, we can talk.

I will address the verse you quoted, if you can tell me the meaning and interpretation of the verses below.


1. God said he is not a man that he should LIE. How did God himself then become a MAN

2. James clearly said that God cannot be tempted , yet Jesus was tempted

3. God cannot die, but Jesus died and God raised him from the dead

4. Jesus emphatically said that God is greater then Him, what exactly does this mean ?
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 10:49am On Sep 07, 2012
aletheia:

God is Spirit. . .you have been declaiming throughout this thread and yet fail to grasp the essential truth that God is Spirit therefore the Holy Spirit is God.

God is Spirit and his Spirit is the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit is GOD.

So this does not look like a dual personality.

Different to your own concept of God the Spirit, Holy Spirit and then Christ the Spirit.

Please stop confusing yourself.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 10:51am On Sep 07, 2012
Aletheia, I haven't seen evidence on goshen360's thread about the gap theory that you have continued to follow it, that's why I'm informing you here that I intend to start a thread on the Age of the Earth, probably in the science section. I'd love to discuss it some more with you and Mr Anony. Information from the Bible and scientific findings will be very welcome. I sincerely hope that you will oblige me when I call upon you.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 11:24am On Sep 07, 2012
frosbel:
You are a Polytheist not a Monotheist.

You believe in 3 GODs not ONE.
So says, Frosbel, the Muslim wannabe.

H2O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H2O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)


Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

Synonymous parallelism. A line strengthens, develop, reinforces or repeat the line before it.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth;
and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (KJV)

Isaiah 44:22a

I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,

your sins like the morning mist.(NIV)
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 11:28am On Sep 07, 2012
aletheia:
So says, Frosbel, the Muslim wannabe.

H2O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H2O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)


Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him



You have not explained my points

Why is that ?

I am waiting.

Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Sweetnecta: 12:07pm On Sep 07, 2012
So all of them, Fr0sbel, aletheia, the cartoonist Olaadegbu, etc can tell us how a ghost, God or not spoke audible speech to men, if Jesus was rightly recorded in the Bible.

Was the holy spirit speaking in fashion that his voice was heard or human does?
If Ghost can talk in loud voice, people will remember what they heard. where is anything the Ghost said?

If human speaks without anyone hearing the sound of his speech, he will be miming, like a clown or something like that.

What is the position of your Holy Spirit; a voiceless speaker or has audible voice? What did it correct of any mistake?


Muhammad [sa] heard from God and spoke to people exactly what he heard. Muhammad [sa] spoke in the Name of God.
We have records of what he said; its in The Quran, The Speech of his One God Who is One Lord.

@Aletheia, old chap, how are you and the family?
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 12:13pm On Sep 07, 2012
Ihedinobi: Aletheia, I haven't seen evidence on goshen360's thread about the gap theory that you have continued to follow it, that's why I'm informing you here that I intend to start a thread on the Age of the Earth, probably in the science section. I'd love to discuss it some more with you and Mr Anony. Information from the Bible and scientific findings will be very welcome. I sincerely hope that you will oblige me when I call upon you.
Are you saying that I am an adherent of the Gap theory? Perhaps you need to read my post again on that thread. Thanks.

frosbel:
1. God said he is not a man that he should LIE. How did God himself then become a MAN

2. James clearly said that God cannot be tempted , yet Jesus was tempted

3. God cannot die, but Jesus died and God raised him from the dead

4. Jesus emphatically said that God is greater then Him, what exactly does this mean ?
Your four questions are summed up by the bolded portion. This I guess is the source of your angst. But I 'd already identified that much earlier on this thread when I said:
aletheia: Next will come the denial of the hypostasis of Jesus. . .the seeds of which are already evident in some of your posts on this thread

frosbel:
1. God said he is not a man that he should LIE. How did God himself then become a MAN
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.(Joh 1:14)

What is meant by the Word was made flesh; if not that God Himself became a MAN. Are you a deceiver or just confused?
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1Jn 4:2-3)

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

frosbel:
2. James clearly said that God cannot be tempted , yet Jesus was tempted
Complete the quotation, and also indicate the purpose for his being tempted. . .stop wrenching verses out of context.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Heb 2:14-18)

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
(Heb 4:15)


That Jesus was tempted? Is that your argument against the Incarnation of the Word who was God? Didn't you see the scriptures above. God willingly and deliberately became flesh in order to save the children who are partakers of flesh and blood. Jesus allowed himself to be tempted so that in all things he will be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest, knowing what it is to be tempted and yet being without sin so that he is able to reconcile the brethren to God.

frosbel:
3. God cannot die, but Jesus died and God raised him from the dead
Why is that difficult for you to understand. Flesh and blood dies. The Man Jesus died. . .and rose. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Jesus laid down His life of his volition and took it up again! No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (Joh 10:18)

frosbel:
4. Jesus emphatically said that God is greater then Him, what exactly does this mean ?
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:6-11)

What do you understand by the underlined words above?

It was at a certain point in Time that Jesus said this. Was it not while he was as yet on earth when he had emptied himself of his Heavenly Glory, laying it aside for the time while he was on earth. He point he clearly makes here. . .And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (Joh 17:5)

Now He is risen and ascended on high. What does he say now?
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:cool

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Ti 3:16)
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 12:16pm On Sep 07, 2012
Sweetnecta:
@Aletheia, old chap, how are you and the family?
We are fine. And you?
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 12:29pm On Sep 07, 2012
aletheia:
Are you saying that I am an adherent of the Gap theory? Perhaps you need to read my post again on that thread. Thanks.

No, sir, I'm not saying that. On that matter, you and I are of the same persuasion.

I am only requesting a scientific discussion of the age of the earth using information from the Bible and established findings in the scientific community with you and Mr Anony. I hope that you can indulge me, sir.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 1:02pm On Sep 07, 2012
Ihedinobi:

No, sir, I'm not saying that. On that matter, you and I are of the same persuasion.

I am only requesting a scientific discussion of the age of the earth using information from the Bible and established findings in the scientific community with you and Mr Anony. I hope that you can indulge me, sir.
OK.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Goshen360(m): 1:04pm On Sep 07, 2012
@ Frosbel,

This is the answer to your kweshion. See, many times when the NT testament quotes from the OT, it does NOT quote exactly it is was written in the OT, it is mostly kind of paraphrased. Your question as to:

Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

The above quote implies that it is talking about Jesus as "L"ord our God. But in the OT, you will see phrase such as "LORD GOD", Anywhere you see in scripture with FULL Capitalization such as LORD God or LORD GOD, it is in reference to Yahweh - the Father. The proper capitalization makes the distinction between words like "l"ord, "L"ord, LORD etc. Now go back to where Mark 12:29 is referenced from, Deuteronomy 6:4,

New International Version (©1984)
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Listen, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Listen, Israel: The LORD is our God. The LORD is the only God.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

American King James Version
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

English Revised Version
Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:

Webster's Bible Translation
Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:

World English Bible
Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:

Off course, God, the Father is ONE! And this is very clear through the scriptures as:

There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called--one L[/b]ord, (reference to Christ-mine added) one faith, one baptism; [b]one God and Father of all, (reference to Yahweh - mine added) who is over all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:6 NIV.

So the Mark 12:29 is in reference to the Father BUT the scriptures clearly call the Son, God and also calls the Holy Ghost, God.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 1:17pm On Sep 07, 2012
Goshen360: @ Frosbel,


So the Mark 12:29 is in reference to the Father BUT the scriptures clearly call the Son, God and also calls the Holy Ghost, God.


New International Version (©1984)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one - Mark 12:29


Ephesians 4:4-6
New International Version (NIV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


You are playing gymnastics with words.


Both Mark and Ephesians say that GOD is ONE. What are you trying to say, that it does not mean what it says but another thing.

In Ephesians , it also added one Lord , and we know this Lord is Christ Jesus.

Why are you so hell bent on attributing 3 persons to one GOD ? How can it be ONE when it is 3.

Absurd !!


I am waiting for the day you will discard this catholic heresy.



The true belief is : Holy Spirit is the personal, operational presence and power of God that is given to all believers through Jesus Christ.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 1:42pm On Sep 07, 2012
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Image123(m): 1:47pm On Sep 07, 2012
sad times really, talk about drawing back. Just to throw in though, how Jesus compared the Holy Ghost to Himself, calling Him Another Comforter.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 1:58pm On Sep 07, 2012
Image123: sad times really, talk about drawing back. Just to throw in though, how Jesus compared the Holy Ghost to Himself, calling Him Another Comforter.


I am in the minority which means I am safe wink

The majority are rushing along with church tradition without thinking.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by free123: 5:11pm On Sep 07, 2012
Alatheia thanks for those verses up there. they clearly show Jesus as God, no doubt.

One line says that Jesus did not take the nature of angels but that of men. this clearly indicates that Jesus is more than angels. i wonder if Jehovah's witneses who claim that Jesus is an angel cannot see this and other verses alatheia has been able to quote here.

for frosbel
what do u stand to gain from all these threads? Is dis d same u who opened a thread on d divinity of Christ, showing how Jesus is God, how he at times talked like a man and other times like God? Have u become a JW or an Eckist lately by saying that God's Spirit is His influence or power on earth? if d Holy Spirit is not a person, why d pronoun - He?
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 6:43pm On Sep 07, 2012
free123: Alatheia thanks for those verses up there. they clearly show Jesus as God, no doubt.

One line says that Jesus did not take the nature of angels but that of men. this clearly indicates that Jesus is more than angels. i wonder if Jehovah's witneses who claim that Jesus is an angel cannot see this and other verses alatheia has been able to quote here.

for frosbel
what do u stand to gain from all these threads? Is dis d same u who opened a thread on d divinity of Christ, showing how Jesus is God, how he at times talked like a man and other times like God? Have u become a JW or an Eckist lately by saying that God's Spirit is His influence or power on earth? if d Holy Spirit is not a person, why d pronoun - He?

What I stand to gain is to speak the truth from the bible and not from tradition.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 6:49pm On Sep 07, 2012
Trinitarians let us do some maths.

If

A = 1
B = 1
C = 1

Find T

A + B + C = T


1 + 1 + 1 = 3

T = 3


But hold on .



A is not B is not C and B is not A and is not C and C is not A and is not B so :




A , B and C are independent of each other.



Now according to Trinitarian maths :



A + B + C = T

1 + 1 + 1 = 1


Can you please help me here or am I missing something.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Goshen360(m): 8:24pm On Sep 07, 2012
frosbel:

New International Version (©1984)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one - Mark 12:29


Ephesians 4:4-6
New International Version (NIV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


You are playing gymnastics with words.

Both Mark and Ephesians say that GOD is ONE. What are you trying to say, that it does not mean what it says but another thing.

In Ephesians , it also added one Lord , and we know this Lord is Christ Jesus.

Why are you so hell bent on attributing 3 persons to one GOD ? How can it be ONE when it is 3.

Absurd !!

I am waiting for the day you will discard this catholic heresy.

The true belief is : Holy Spirit is the personal, operational presence and power of God that is given to all believers through Jesus Christ.

Okay I hear you bro. Now answer this question. This same "One Lord" i.e. Jesus Christ, WAS HE CALLED GOD in another scriptures? YES or NO?

After answering this, I will proceed to tell you what's on my mind and probably end this argument because I can see you are trying to deny the context of Ephesians and Mark......You know the context of that One God is the Father (Yahweh) and the context of One Lord is Jesus Christ which we all know is distinct from Yahweh, the father, so Paul could NOT have said, their is TWO God and Father of all. That is why Paul further describe the One God he is writing about by adding....."and the Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all"....BUT the bible also calls this same ONE Lord (in the context of Ephesians) God in another scriptures.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Sweetnecta: 9:11pm On Sep 07, 2012
I typed some sort of greeting to aletheia.

he read it, because he has sight by his eyes. Then he typed a response.

I read it is the only reason i knew he responded.

If i were standing in front of aletheia or using a telephone, wherein in either case he can hear me speak, sound from my mouth to his ears, instead of printed letters typed out and read by eyesight.

@Aletheia, etc, how did holy spirit hear from God and then speak to man to be able to pass for the another comforter?
did the invisible holy spirit ave audible voice?

is it not one with Yahweh and thereby know the thought of Yahweh and needed not to listen to hear before talking?


I know you guys are running away from the hearing and speaking parts.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by aletheia(m): 9:17pm On Sep 07, 2012
frosbel:
I am in the minority which means I am safe wink
Is this the crutch you lean on? The Sadducees were a minority, you know. . .so I guess by your logic, they were "safe"?

Your video there makes such a big to do about houtos and autos and at 5:23 makes this statement: "Absolutely nothing in the Greek indicates a person is in view", whereas much earlier it claims that both words may be used for both a person and an inanimate object. Seems the author is confused. . .and it is clear that he starts from a pre-determined conclusion and seeks to panel beat the scriptures to suit his own desires. . .else how do we explain his glaring silence on these words: the Word was God.
Logically if the Word was God, it would indicate that Word is indeed a person and is the person kept in view by houtos and autos. The video ignores these words the Word was God. because it demolishes its premise.

Moreover, the video attempts to obfuscate by claiming it doesn't say:
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.
And why should the scriptures use Jesus in John 1:1 - 3, when clearly it is talking about the pre-Incarnate Word of God. Jesus is the name He bears on earth. . .as clearly shown in Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. He has other names in Heaven such as the Word!
Indeed John 1 shows how the Word who was at the beginning, the Word who was with God, the Word who was God became flesh. . .and so from verse 17 on we see but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The unity of the scriptures is plain to behold and so in Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

. . .and his name is called The Word of God.

QED

Well, that doesn't sound like an inanimate, impersonal, spoken word to me.

Here is a question for you, Frosbel (though, I notice, you haven't answered a single one I asked you - but you expect others to answer your questions).

If the Word in John 1:1 is the impersonal and spoken word as your video claims and you agree, explain these words of Jesus:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

frosbel: Trinitarians let us do some maths. . .
Can you please help me here or am I missing something.
You have obviously missed something. God is not a vector or scalar in Euclidean space that is subject to your arithmetic. God is a Spirit.

3 Likes

Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by free123: 9:21pm On Sep 07, 2012
muslim take ur islam to ur brothers. tell them to stop killing
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 9:38pm On Sep 07, 2012
aletheia:
Is this the crutch you lean on? The Sadducees were a minority, you know. . .so I guess by your logic, they were "safe"?

Your video there makes such a big to do about houtos and autos and at 5:23 makes this statement: "Absolutely nothing in the Greek indicates a person is in view", whereas much earlier it claims that both words may be used for both a person and an inanimate object. Seems the author is confused. . .and it is clear that he starts from a pre-determined conclusion and seeks to panel beat the scriptures to suit his own desires. . .else how do we explain his glaring silence on these words: the Word was God.
Logically if the Word was God, it would indicate that Word is indeed a person and is the person kept in view by houtos and autos. The video ignores these words the Word was God. because it demolishes its premise.

Moreover, the video attempts to obfuscate by claiming it doesn't say:
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.
And why should the scriptures use Jesus in John 1:1 - 3, when clearly it is talking about the pre-Incarnate Word of God. Jesus is the name He bears on earth. . .as clearly shown in Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. He has other names in Heaven such as the Word!
Indeed John 1 shows how the Word who was at the beginning, the Word who was with God, the Word who was God became flesh. . .and so from verse 17 on we see but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The unity of the scriptures is plain to behold and so in Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

. . .and his name is called The Word of God.

QED

Well, that doesn't sound like an inanimate, impersonal, spoken word to me.

Here is a question for you, Frosbel (though, I notice, you haven't answered a single one I asked you - but you expect others to answer your questions).

If the Word in John 1:1 is the impersonal and spoken word as your video claims and you agree, explain these words of Jesus:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


You have obviously missed something. God is not a vector or scalar in Euclidean space that is subject to your arithmetic. God is a Spirit.




All this just to explain what is supposed to be a single concept.


You are truly going round in circles.
Re: 34 Reasons Why The “holy Spirit” Is Not A “person” - Bible Scholars attention ! by Nobody: 9:46pm On Sep 07, 2012
frosbel:




All this just to explain what is supposed to be a single concept.


You are truly going round in circles.

Could you show us how he is?

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