obadiah777: WHAT IT DO BRAH ? TRUST ALL IS WELL. FUNNY COMMENT

Lol....

Its really funny...

If hell is a place of torment then it means Jesus was tormented because Jesus went to Hell.......lol...

Abi??

This is what happens when sheol and hades are mistranslated as"" HELL""

ijawkid:

Oh its within you??

And what is it doing??is it a seperate part of you that is you??

Its waiting to escape and rove about after you return to the ground abi??

SMH!!!!.......

REYGINUS SPIRIT IS ROAMING AROUND SEEKING FOR WHOM TO DEVOUR

ijawkid:

Lol....

Its really funny...

If hell is a place of torment then it means Jesus was tormented because Jesus went to Hell.......lol...

Abi??

This is what happens when sheol and hades are mistranslated as"" HELL""

COULDNT AGREE WITH YOU MORE. IN FACT THOSE 3 NAMES ARE INTERMINGLED WITHIN THE SAME VERSE IN DIFFERENT BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

obadiah777: REYGINUS SPIRIT IS ROAMING AROUND SEEKING FOR WHOM TO DEVOUR

Lol.....

Abeg o......

Na only satan dey rove about seeking for whom to devour.....

Reyginus is my dear brother.....

ijawkid:

Lol.....

Abeg o......

Na only satan dey rove about seeking for whom to devour.....

Reyginus is my dear brother.....

LOL YEAH HE A COOL BREDA. JUST MESSING WITH HIM. ME AND REYGINUS GO WAY BACK LIKE BABY AND DIAPERS

ijawkid:

Lol....now I got you....

Jesus was flesh and blood in order for his death to be sacrificial.....

Jesus was put to death in the flesh......and Jesus spent 3 good days in HELL just like every human would.....

If you always think HELL is a place of torment,then be ready to agree that Jesus was tormented in Hell.....

The KJV is what has landed each and every one in this wahala...

That's why I asked you if you are familiar with words like sheol and hades....those were the words that the KJV transliterated as HELL.......

We have read from revelation that both HELL(grave) which Jesus went to and death were thrown into the lake of fire.......

sheol and hades are the greek and hebrew words used in the scriptures,not HELL.....

He came in human form but was he trully a 'man' by the things he did?

ijawkid:

Oh its within you??

And what is it doing??is it a seperate part of you that is you??

Its waiting to escape and rove about after you return to the ground abi??

SMH!!!!.......

Before you start joking around, where is your spirit now?

obadiah777: REYGINUS SPIRIT IS ROAMING AROUND SEEKING FOR WHOM TO DEVOUR

Brah!
That was harsh.

obadiah777: LOL YEAH HE A COOL BREDA. JUST MESSING WITH HIM. ME AND REYGINUS GO WAY BACK LIKE BABY AND DIAPERS

Lol....you too funny....

Reyginus: Before you start joking around, where is your spirit now?

My spirit??

I no get o....rather it is Gods breath in me that is keeping me alive......

I aint a spirit,I am flesh and blood......

Reyginus: He came in human form but was he trully a 'man' by the things he did?

Jesus was a man when on earth...that was why he could bleed and die.....

With Gods power in Him Jesus could do all he did when on earth.....

obadiah777: READ IT WELL SIR. IT IS TALKING ABOUT THE RESTING SPIRIT IN DEATH. MATTER OF FACT, AND I AM NOT USUALLY STUMPED FOR SCRIPTURES BUT I CANT LOCATE THIS PARTICULAR SCRIPTURE, HOWEVER I WILL KEEP TRYING. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS THERE IS A PLACE WHERE THE SOULS OF THE DEAD ARE HOUSED AND AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER IT. THESE SOULS ( SPIRITS ) ARE SLEEPING AND WAITING FOR THEIR NEXT DEPLOYMENT TO EARTH. I WILL LOOK FOR THAT SCRIPTURE

^^^
I think I have read something like this in the Book of Enoch.

seriallink:

^^^
I think I have read something like this in the Book of Enoch.

not in the bible !

frosbel:

not in the bible !

But you do know that it's in the Ethiopian Bible right? Even Christ and some of his disciples quoted from it when teaching!

You might wanna check out this thread : www.nairaland.com/1080843/book-enoch-jesus-quoted-it

@frosb

There is no contradiction between the words of Solomon and Jesus or the apostles.

I am really worried for those who associate with your form of theology as it is pagan , false and quite misleading.

You show no respect for the consistency of GOD's word.

i noticed that you skipped my previous post completely. Try to read it and try to read posts fully first to kind of digest the other viewpoint, instead of the rush to 'rebut' or 'debunk'. You saw the thread 'rules' right? You are not omniscient, are you? Now, to what i said. I said "this position may sound contrary to 'the position of Solomon', as many have put up on this thread". To state that something may sound contrary or contradictory is not the same as saying that it IS contrary. i said both Solomon and the apostles were saying the same thing, and that Solomon has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. I only opined that even if Solomon is contrary to the apostles, i'd go with the apostles instead. you hardly know the meaning of theology, so don't bother talking down on me about it.

A number of problems with you assessment.

1. First of all this is an allegory, it is not actual fact that the souls of men and women will be under the altar for countless ages waiting for the end of the world, you guys are really confused. One minute they are with JESUS and the next minute they are under an altar.

That it is symbolic is not a reason to toss it aside. What you need to patiently and humbly find out is what is symbolic and how it applies. the passage speaks plainly for itself.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them [b]that were slain [/b]for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
They were slain, killed, or that is also symbolic? They cried,spoke aloud, and what they said is direct and can be understood by any. It is not all shrouded in some mystery that only frosb and his church members can explain. Robes were given to them, and they were told to rest for a while. these are simple messages that any reader can decipher from the passage, and they show a point. The point again being that dead saints can talk, hear, rest, and wear a robe. they are not unconscious and paralysed. John saw them under the altar. Now, under the altar may be symbolic, but i'm sure it is not a symbol of their coffin or hell. Other scriptures that talk about dead saints help us infer that it is the same place that is called paradise, Abraham's bosom, sleeping in Jesus etc. that a place or person is tagged different names is a common occurence in the Bible. The Bible/Word of God is symbolised as a sword, a fire, light etc. God Himself has many names, He is even symbolised as a sun and a shield, a tower, a buckler etc. Jesus is symbolised as the Word, the Way, the Door, the Truth, Branch, Wonderful etc. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. Symbolism is not only for the privileged esoteric few of frosb class to understand, so no come bamboozle us here. Use the different scriptures on the abode/dwelling place of dead saints to know what is been referred. Chei, i thought you said you were in deeper life, don't they teach you this simple things. Anyway, i've met others so you're not a proper yardstick.

2. We then have to assume that ABEL's blood is still crying today from the ground literally


The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground - Genesis 4;10

Why do you have to make such an assumption? i quote Rev, you run go Gen. Get the point. i didn't say anyone is still crying, neither does the passage i gave or the one you gave say so. Stop trying to distract issues. unlike the Genesis passage, the souls in revelation were seen/visible to man(john), the souls heard and spoke definite specific words, the souls rested, and they were given something. Don't just go and pull out something to try to misconstrue. Seek and learn to rightly divide the Word of God.

3. You have to take everything in revelation literally , for example :

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months - Revelation 9:7-10

In this passage you MUST agree that :

- Locusts looked like horses prepared for battle
- They had crowns of gold
- the Locusts had human faces
- The Locust have women's hair
- The Locusts had Lion's teeth

etc etc


Now you are beginning to see how silly it is to take everything in the book of revelation literally.

You are not the sole determinant of what to take literally in the Bible. Perhaps you should just close up Revelations since everything is symbolic to you, what an excuse. maybe even Jesus or God mentioned there are also symbolic. You should know how to divide the Word of truth rightly, and at least get basic points out of passages even when you do not seem to understand them. If not, simply go ahead and tell us what verse or chapter we may consider literal and the ones we should not.

The verse you quoted simply implies that as ABEL's blood cried, the blood of the just who have died since the world began is crying unto God even though they are dead , for vengance and God will avenge in due course.

New International Version (©1984)
By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead - Hebrews 11:4

Again, please post which verses in Revelation we should take literally, thank you. And what does the passage imply when it states that souls could hear, receive robes, rest, and be seen. Thank you in advance.

Paul rightly said they sleep, someone cannot be sleeping and be awake somewhere else.

You keep showing a serious inability to rightly discern the word of GOD because the answer to your confusion is in the same chaper

You missed the point. here is what i said "When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven." they are at rest just like the souls, but like the souls can communicate, even so can those sleeping in Jesus. They are the spirits of just men made perfect, the cloud of WITNESSES.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
God is not a God of the dead or paralysed, He is a God of the living. the dead saints are living. You are talking like the pharisees.

Which one is it , make up your mind, are they in paradise or under the altar, does being under an altar sound like paradise to you ?

Its the same thing. I already said it is the same thing if you bothered to read my post in full instead of just trying hard to debunk. Like your folks like to remark, 'we are here to learn'. paradise is a place in heaven, no? The altar is a place in heaven, no? Jesus is in heaven, no? The dead saints are asleep in Jesus, no?
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Paul had a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. You say if Paul dies, all he will do is go to hell(the grave). Well, i know who to believe.

seriallink:

But you do know that it's in the Ethiopian Bible right? Even Christ and some of his disciples quoted from it when teaching!

You might wanna check out this thread : www.nairaland.com/1080843/book-enoch-jesus-quoted-it

There are many books floating about the place.

Be rest assured that when MAN dies he is sleeping and totally dead.

ijawkid:

My spirit??

I no get o....rather it is Gods breath in me that is keeping me alive......

I aint a spirit,I am flesh and blood......

haba! Sanu!

Is there anything like the book of enoch?

Reyginus: Is there anything like the book of enoch?

Yeah, even though it's considered an apocriphal work, it's in the Ethiopian Bible!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Reyginus: haba! Sanu!

DE ZUAAAAA......lol

@Anony

Now this is what I believe we really should be discussing about. i.e. whether there is a conscious hell of torment before there is a lake of fire or whether there is a sleep until resurrection to life or second death.

I have my reservations with some parts of your posts but I'll air them a little later. Let us learn together

Well said.

@ijawk

We are told from revelations that underneath this altar are "" the souls of them[/b] that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:""..............
Because of your pre-concieved notion that "" the soul"" is a disembodied part of a Human that escapes at one's death,you tend to conclude that definitly the dead are concious of there surrounding.....

you seem to be attacking something else outside the post, perhaps your preconceived notion of my personality. The Bible teaches that when a man dies, his flesh or body decays(goes to the dust), but that the spirit goes up.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
if you notice, there is a separation. that is what death is, a separation.

I'll like to take you to the scriptures for us to see what the word ""soul"" stands for......

John knew that the soul or ""life"" is symbolized by the"" blood"",and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal.they sprinkled the blood ""round about upon the altar"" or poured it ""at the base of the altar of burnt offering""...

We can see this from leveticus 4:7 and 17:11-12 respectively
........
Leviticus 4:7
And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock atthe"" bottom of the altar of the burnt offering"", which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
.............
Leviticus 17:11-12
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the ""blood"": and Ihave given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat"" blood"", neither shall anystranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

................
So the life of those animals was in there ""blood"".....but here we are talking about souls or blood of these particular servants of God been seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven....why??
..Because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.....

Let's read phillipians 3:9-10....
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;............
..........
So john in a real sense was correct to had seen the souls( blood)of these matyrs underneath that symbolic altar.........these faithful ones in their day were matyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Gods word........

i didn't ask for this, i wonder why you are bringing it up. i agree with most of what is written here. though souls can also refe to other things. this is not a thread for soul education though.

In what sense were these souls crying out to GOD to avenge those who killed them??

Frosbel gave a perfect rebuttal by using ABEL as an example.......

ABels blood cried out after cain murdered Him....genesis 4:10-11 has that record......

It was not that abels blood literally was uttering words,rather abel had died as an innocent victim and justice called out for his murderer to be purnished.........

Similarly those christian matyrs are innocent,and in justice they must be avenged.......

These are the points you have to grasp..
1...There souls signifies there blood which was spilled
2....There souls(blood) being underneath that symbolic altar shows those faithful ones died a sacrificial death..
3....There souls crying out just as abels own did,shows they are waiting for justice to be done to there murderers...

in addition to my reply to frosb on this issue, your post, and the relevance to this thread. The remaining points to be grasped are that dead people are not inactive, but have parts that can hear, speak, receive robes, and be told to rest. Why would they be told to rest if it was automatic for all dead people. And what of the other posts that i gave you guys showing that dead people are not inactive, like the passages from Ecclesiastes, and the words of Jesus.

Now please can you define paradise??

Is it the altar that is the paradise or what??

Many things don't have an exact explanation in the Bible. If i asked you to define hell, or heaven, or God, or born again, we could have a thread for each with many views. So don't derail the thread. if you so need the definition, you may open another thread. I have already stated that paradise, abraham's bosom, under the altar, sleeping in Jesus are all phrases used to describe the state of dead believers. They are all the same thing expressed in different names to show us a more thorough view. just like god's Word is described in different ways, as a fire, a hammer, truth, light, sword etc to teach us different aspects of describing it. No sane christian gets up and says is the Word of God fire or sword or water, choose one. Or is God a buckler, or a sun, or love or holy, choose one or stop confusing us. That's why we emphasize reading things in totality, the Word of God, people's posts, etc.

In case you've forgotten these faithful christians were to experience exactly the same ressurection Jesus underwent......

Until Jesus was ressurected he was no where to be found in heaven.......neither was Jesus running around the whole place aimlessly from his Grave...he waited until his Father ressurected Him...

Don't expect anything different when it comes to the ressurection of those who also died in the same manner Jesus did.....

Dead christians are WITH CHRIST, get that into your skull.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

There is life after death after one is ressurected......

Don't you get it??

Ressurection is the word.....

David,abraham etc are all In there graves waiting until they are ressurected....

Abraham and co are not dead. God is not a God of the dead. They are conscious. Elijah is conscious, Moses is conscious. they are all a cloud of WITNESSES that can see us. they can't fully participate, hence the need for a later resurrection where they will be changed and given heavenly bodies.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The soul and spirit will be joined to a spiritual body. It is resurrection that takes them from under the altar. that is what they were essentially told to wait for.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The souls lived and reigned with Christ after they were resurrected. Of course, you are expected to say the souls are blood and they are symbolic with joining the blood of the lamb and metaphoric to abel and levi and zacharias, and all other cock and bull you want to present next. Please, try to learn something from the thread.

[quote author=Image123]

you seem to be attacking something else outside the post, perhaps your preconceived notion of my personality. The Bible teaches that when a man dies, his flesh or body decays(goes to the dust), but that the spirit goes up.

All 'spirits' go up , returning to GOD !

How come no spirit goes down to hell.

Your theology is convoluted and seriously warped.

ijawkid:

From this your statement you are indirectly telling us that God is the cause of everybody's temporal suffering right now on earth.....abi??......

egba mi o! Ijawkid y are u puting words in my mouth, i talked about a reality, i didnt mention anything like "cause". Ijawkid these are your words, i tag them back at ya.

For you to say that"" eternal torment"" is as real as ""temporal suffering"" is so preposterous.....you just completely pÀinted God the evil guy who keeps on suffering peoplÉ for all eternity......

you are d person wu did, adam sin and brought temporal suffering on humanity by each man sin he make himself a debtor of divine justice

Even the now suffering we experience today has an end when we die......so why insinuate God would suffer persons for all eternity??....


So I'll ask you::::

1...Who is the cause of our temporal sufferiÑgs??

2......Who will be the cause of everlasting torment and suffering??

man

truthislight:

let me still show it to you that animal and man have the same spirit.

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 3:19).

Learn well.

wow! Truthislight has no importance above a beast, wow, wen will people learn to interprete scripture well.

obadiah777: LOL YEAH HE A COOL BREDA. JUST MESSING WITH HIM. ME AND REYGINUS GO WAY BACK LIKE BABY AND DIAPERS

really?? This means you guys are quite 'recent'. If u were old pals u would have said "baby and napkins".

seriallink:

^^^
I think I have read something like this in the Book of Enoch.

i thought as much, where did u get Enoch to read? I thought those books were extinct.

Ubenedictus: egba mi o! Ijawkid y are u puting words in my mouth, i talked about a reality, i didnt mention anything like "cause". Ijawkid these are your words, i tag them back at ya.

you are d person wu did, adam sin and brought temporal suffering on humanity by each man sin he make himself a debtor of divine justice


man

HehehÉhehehehe.......

The way u easily made eternal torment as real as mans temporal sufferings got me wondering...

Because according to you guys God would be the one tormenting those who wiLl be thrown in hell fire....abi??no be Him??

If God can torment one for all eternity,then it simply means God is the same one purnishing us now as we speak.......

Abi now God don good not to fit purnish us temporarily before the everlasting torment ??......

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]

Good question...

Why must the ""spirit"" of all(both good and bad) go back to God the source of it......??

Why doesn't some spirits like our colleagues here are insinuating go to Hell.....??

This is simply because they have not really defined what the ""spirit""that returns to God is.......

Image123: @Anony

Well said.

@ijawk

you seem to be attacking something else outside the post, perhaps your preconceived notion of my personality. The Bible teaches that when a man dies, his flesh or body decays(goes to the dust), but that the spirit goes up.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
if you notice, there is a separation. that is what death is, a separation.


i didn't ask for this, i wonder why you are bringing it up. i agree with most of what is written here. though souls can also refe to other things. this is not a thread for soul education though.



in addition to my reply to frosb on this issue, your post, and the relevance to this thread. The remaining points to be grasped are that dead people are not inactive, but have parts that can hear, speak, receive robes, and be told to rest. Why would they be told to rest if it was automatic for all dead people. And what of the other posts that i gave you guys showing that dead people are not inactive, like the passages from Ecclesiastes, and the words of Jesus.



Many things don't have an exact explanation in the Bible. If i asked you to define hell, or heaven, or God, or born again, we could have a thread for each with many views. So don't derail the thread. if you so need the definition, you may open another thread. I have already stated that paradise, abraham's bosom, under the altar, sleeping in Jesus are all phrases used to describe the state of dead believers. They are all the same thing expressed in different names to show us a more thorough view. just like god's Word is described in different ways, as a fire, a hammer, truth, light, sword etc to teach us different aspects of describing it. No sane christian gets up and says is the Word of God fire or sword or water, choose one. Or is God a buckler, or a sun, or love or holy, choose one or stop confusing us. That's why we emphasize reading things in totality, the Word of God, people's posts, etc.


Dead christians are WITH CHRIST, get that into your skull.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Abraham and co are not dead. God is not a God of the dead. They are conscious. Elijah is conscious, Moses is conscious. they are all a cloud of WITNESSES that can see us. they can't fully participate, hence the need for a later resurrection where they will be changed and given heavenly bodies.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The soul and spirit will be joined to a spiritual body. It is resurrection that takes them from under the altar. that is what they were essentially told to wait for.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The souls lived and reigned with Christ after they were resurrected. Of course, you are expected to say the souls are blood and they are symbolic with joining the blood of the lamb and metaphoric to abel and levi and zacharias, and all other cock and bull you want to present next. Please, try to learn something from the thread.

The problem you are having right now is that you are just confused......

First ressurection or last ressurection .RESSURECTION is RESSURECTION....

If the saints are not ressurected they have no business leaving there graves to strole in the heavens.......

The spirit that goes back to God after ones death,is the ""breathe of life"".....

This is onÉ simple truth you guys have been finding hard to grasp..........

All persons that die,there spirits(breath of life) returns to God the source of it.....

If not by yoÙr definitioÑ of spirit§,it will mean the spirit of all wrongdoers too are in heaven......

Abraham and co are all dead and unconscious as we speak......

God is a God of the living in the sense that he ressurects all those who were faithful to Him back to life.....ressurection is the reason why God is called the God of the living,not because when we die our spirits start running around the place.........get that pagan supersticious belief off your system..........

And we had all confirmed from the scriptures long ago that abraham and all faithful patriarchs are not in heaven(john 3:13),rather they are in there graves awaiting ressurection.......

And I can see how you skillfully dodged the pertinent question I asked....

I asked if underneath the altar in heaven where those souls are found is the paradise you've been referring to....??

Your answer becomes shaky......

That is why I gave you a biblical answer to tell you what the souls of those saints that is underneath the altar symbolizes....but again you refuse to learn..........

If only you knew that all what John saw at revelation were future events you won't be here mis-construing verses to suit your belief that spirits of the dead(which is the samÉ as that person) are there in the heavens even before there ressurection...........

If Jesus himself had to wait for his ressurection before ascending to the heavens,who are we humans to run away to heaven before we are ressurected??.....

Remember what returns to God after we return to dust,is the breath of life which was given to us by God and not some spirit who is a replica of us......

If not you must start explaining to all of us where the spirit of adam is.........in heaven or still in the grave??

Because all spirits(wether that of the good or bad) return back to God after ones death......

ijawkid:

How on earth would you tell me death and Hell are personified??

How else do you think the last enemy ""DEATH"" would be brought to nothing if not being thrown in the lake of Fire..??

Interesting, I think you need to brush up your english literature skills (or better yet, look up the meaning of personification in a dictionary)
The moment you start giving an abstract concept personal attributes like it being an enemy who is defeated and thrown into a fire, you have personified it. (For reference compare this to how Love is personified in 1 Corinthians 13).

Can you please juxtapose revelation 20:14 where"" death"" is said to be thrown into the lake of fire and revelation 21:4 where we are told that ""Death"" would be no more??

Let's read revelation 21:4...
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their
eyes; and there shall be no more"" death"",
neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there
be any more pain: for the former things are
passed away.

.....

It is very simple, in Revelations 21:4 God is talking to those who have been redeemed and telling them that they will not die anymore neither will anyone weep or cry anymore or be in pain because they have passed on to eternal life.

Interestingly, we are not told anywhere that "Sorrow", "Tears" and "Pain" have been cast into any fire somewhere. You just managed to single out "death" to force into your theology.

Also compare 1 corinthians 15:26..
American King James Version
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
""death"".


......
For you to say"" death"" is personified and so would be tormented literally alongside satan and his cohorts forever would be the greatest lie ever told.....that bible you are holding never supports your view.....

If you had noticed death and hades are the last of Gods enemies.......

Revelation 20 clearly shows that ""death and hades"" were the last enemies to be thrown into the lake of fire....satan even was thrown into the lake of fire before death...death and hades was the last......that agrees with 1 corinthians 15:26 that calls ""death"" the last enemy.....

And we all know from 1 corinthians 15:26 what the fate of ""death"" is.....total destruction...

Anything or anybody that is thrown into the lake of fire faces complete ""destruction""......


Now thats the point you have to understand....

For you to be dodging this lucid truth by personifying death has got me worried......

I think you should read 1 corinthians 15:24-28 critically,it would help you a lot.....

If you would understand that ""death"" is the last of Gods enemy,then you wouldn't have to worry about how every other thing that would be thrown into the lake of fire would experience death and total destruction....

DEATH is last on the list of things/persons to face destruction.....

Mr anony embrace truth...its staring right at you......

Again, you are also personifying death by calling it an enemy to be destroyed.

You know what, I agree with you when we talk about destruction. All I keep pointing at is the nature of this destruction we are talking about. Is it a disappearance or is it eternal torment or as Ihedinobi put it eternal chaos.

We are told clearly that the devil will be tormented forever. Next we are told that death and hades will be thrown into the fire.

Let us even say that death is not personified i.e. it is the concept of death that is eliminated, wouldn't this also mean that those whose names are not found in the book of life will equally be incapable of dying?

Why are you so hellbent on forcing the same fate for an abstract concept upon distinct beings? Your reading lacks consistency because if the devil which is a distinct being suffers eternally, it also follows that the sinner who is equally a distinct being should have the same fate.

I know hell is a very terrible thing and I wish it didn't exist but then what I won't do is to force the scripture to say something else just because I am uncomfortable with hell.

By the way, try not to read me wrong. I have never said that the occupants of hell would "burn" in the literal sense of the word. What I have insisted is that the suffering (in whatever form it will take) is for sure and it is forever. That is the nature of the second death.

Ubenedictus: i thought as much, where did u get Enoch to read? I thought those books were extinct.

Oh okay, the Ethiopian Bible is extinct too right? Are you implying that all Ethiopian Christians are hell bound? I thought Catholics have some of those Books in their Bible too

Mr_Anony:
Yes Jesus was talking to the pharisees but my friend, your explanation of that parable is by far the most convoluted I have ever seen. All you have done is try desperately hard to escape the plain truth.

So the pharisees "died" in respect to falling out of God's favour? Did the disciples i.e. the righteous also fall out of God's favor? (don't forget that Lazarus is also dead in the parable)

The even funnier explanation is the torment bit where you make it to mean that torment is their deeds exposed. Of course pharisees were in torment while happily beheading, stoning and crucifying apostles all over the place.

Your convoluted explanation fails woefully here my friend.

Detailed explanation of the parable. I implore you to take a second look at it.

JESUS has been talking to his disciples about the proper use of material riches, explaining that we cannot be slaves to these and at the same time be slaves to God. The Pharisees are also listening, and they begin to deride Jesus because they are money lovers. So he says to them: "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men ; but God knoweth your hearts : for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God . "

Well, read on and see how the tables will soon turne on them.

The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment.

They are rich in spiritual privileges and opportunities, and they conduct themselves as the rich man did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, and the white linen pictures their self-righteousness.

This proud rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them am ha·'a'rets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs. Yet, those of the Lazarus class hunger and thirst for spiritual nourishment and so are at the gate seeking to receive whatever meager morsels of spiritual food may drop from the rich man's table.

Jesus now goes on to describe changes in the condition of the rich man and Lazarus. What are these changes, and what do they represent? Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men's circumstances.

"And it came to pass" Jesus says, "that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom : the rich man also died , and was buried ; And in hell he lift up his eyes , being in torments , and seeth Abraham afar off , and Lazarus in his bosom." - verses 22 & 23.

Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent?

Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that 'The law and the prophets were until John : since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it ' - (verse 16). Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.

Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Yahweh, their heavenly father.

On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, that is why they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:

"And he cried and said , Father Abraham , have mercy on me , and send Lazarus , that he may dip the tip of his finger in water , and cool my tongue ; for I am tormented in this flame". verse 24.
God's fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus' disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They want the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments.

"But Abraham said , Son , remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things , and likewise Lazarus evil things : but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us , that would come from thence." - verses 25 & 26.

How just and appropriate that such a dramatic reversal take place between the Lazarus class and the rich man class! The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders.
The "great chasm" that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus' disciples therefore represents God's unchangeable, righteous judgment.

The rich man next requests, 'I pray thee therefore , father , that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house : For I have five brethren' . Here the rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. (see John 8:44) The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God's judgment messages so as not to put his "five brethren", his religious allies, into "this place of torment." - verses 27 & 28.

"Abraham saith unto him , 'They have Moses and the prophets ; let them hear them .'" - verse 29.

Yes, if the five brethren would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: "Nay , father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead , they will repent.'
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'" - verses 30 & 31. God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince such. People must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor.


The context and the wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account. Poverty is not being extolled, nor are riches being condemned. Rather, conduct, final rewards, and a reversal in the spiritual status, or condition, of those represented by Lazarus and by the rich man are evidently indicated.

The time will soon come for the tables to be turned on people who are rich in worldly goods, political power, and religious control and influence, but neglect the actual doing of the will of God. They will be put down, and those who recognize their spiritual need will be lifted up. Jesus pointed to such a change in his introduction to the parable. Luke 16:16-17

If you feel you have a better explanation to the parable than this, please bring it up that we might learn from you.