No you are the confused one.........if you can't comprehend what the term ""ressurection"" means irrespective of wether its first or second.......

My point if you have noticed is that until one is ressurected(just as Jesus was) that fellow can never be in any other place other than his or her grave.....now that one fact is what you are dodging from.........to you when we die,our souls escape to its various abode before an individual is ressurected...now isn't that false??..........

Now can you please compare daniel 12:2 and john 5:28-29??
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, inthe which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
.......
Again those in there graves have to wait till they receive the command of ressurection.....
This still supports my stance that if on isn't ressurected,that persons soul cannot exist outside his or her body....
I am pro-ressurection,not pro immortality of the soul.......

Its good you are saying from your understanding!!!!.....and your understanding is warped completely from the bibles point of view.......

EcclesÍastes plainly tells us where all ""spirits"" go to after they a person returns to the dust....it is you
and your trickery that has assumed that whÉn man dies his soul goes to heavÉn (altar) or Hell,body to ground and spirit go up....

if I may ask you where does the spirit go up to??to NASA or some astronauts up there in outer space??

there you go again twisting plain scriptures to fit into your pagan belief.......solomon says all spirits regardless of whose(bad or good) spirit goes back to the source(God)...now what is that spirit??

.you also said the soul either goes to the altar and then you equally a
ssumed that the alter is paradise,or the soul goes to Hell.....


And you are not still certain if abraham is in heaven or not.....!!!!!!!!!!!

Even after learning that the word"" Hell"" is grave you are still holding on to the false notion of it because as I can see your life depends on it.....
Jesus went to"" HELL"" and stayed there for 3days,so I wonder how we are going to handle your issue........

And again if these souls run to heaven or hell before they are eventually ressurected of what use is the word ressurection??God would be wasting his time ressurecting persons who by default according to you and your cohorts are in either heaven or Hell fire already imme.diately afte.r death..........

Now I know you got a very big problem understanding scriptures........

I can't believe you will quote a scripture like eccl 6:5 to support your yeye stance on this discussion.....

How wayo of you not to had read from verse 3 to find out who these persons are that will have more rest than a man who has toiled all is life in world of vanity....
........
Eccl 6:3-5
3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a"" stillborn"" child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man—


.......

Do you see that ecclesiastes was talking about a still born child??

Please image123 I would want you to define who a still born child is and please tell me how this verses supports your definition of rest.........the way you have twisted the words of solomon just to let it fit into your spurious belief has left me bewildered....do you even understand what solomon was talking about??
SMH!!!!!!!!.......

So from your false assertions under what group would we categorize children who are born dead?? Sinners or saints??so that we can tell who rests more or who rests less....

Image123 Please always make it your aim to read your bible complete before coming here to post myths......

Now let me ask you:::::: had Jesus been raised from the earth when that incident recorded in matthew 27:52-53 occured??

What brought out those bodies from the graves??

Image123 for you to make this statement """""Actually, the fact Christ was trying to pass across was that His authority supercedes others because He had come from heaven unlike other men who had not been there. he wasn't teaching on where men go to when they die""""" shows that you are a hater of truths and a lover of human traditions and lies ..

For you to refute Jesus' clear statement in john 3:13 is what might make me truncate this discussion I'm having with you...if Jesus said before I came to the earth from heaven I never saw anybody ascend to the heavens, why can't you just believe Him.......except you are insinuating that Jesus didn't check the heavens very well before his descension to the earth.......

From Jesus' clear words @ john 3:13,elisha and moses are right in there graves waiting for when Jesus would ressurect them.......

It seems you still haven't come to the reality that Jesus is the first born from the dead.......the more you push that moses ,elijah and all faithful partriarchs are in heaven and not in there graves the more you are negating Jesus as the first born from the dead.........

I believe you did read about the ""transfiguration""....and a transfiguration it was........nothing more nothing less....continue to re-read john 3:13 until you balance your beliefs with the scriptures.....

Staying. Under an altÀr is not synonymous to paradise.........there souls(blood) being under that §ymbolic or figurative altar shows that those matyrs died a sacrificial death.....I had pointed out this trÙth that corresponds with the ancient temple in Jerusalem.......but you would rather hold on to believe that the blood of those saints are infact the saints themselves in paradise,,,,,

Blood is what is put around or underneath an altar and not humans.....

I had earlier told you that the soul in that context is the blood which is equal to LIFE......

I would like to ask you one good question::::

WHERE IS THE SOUL,BODY,and SPIRIT of adam and eve our first parents who landed us in this predicaments we are facing??

Freksy:


Detailed explanation of the parable. I implore you to take a second look at it.

JESUS has been talking to his disciples about the proper use of material riches, explaining that we cannot be slaves to these and at the same time be slaves to God. The Pharisees are also listening, and they begin to deride Jesus because they are money lovers. So he says to them: "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men ; but God knoweth your hearts : for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God . "

Well, read on and see how the tables will soon turne on them.

The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment.

They are rich in spiritual privileges and opportunities, and they conduct themselves as the rich man did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, and the white linen pictures their self-righteousness.

This proud rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them am ha·'a'rets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs. Yet, those of the Lazarus class hunger and thirst for spiritual nourishment and so are at the gate seeking to receive whatever meager morsels of spiritual food may drop from the rich man's table.

Jesus now goes on to describe changes in the condition of the rich man and Lazarus. What are these changes, and what do they represent? Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men's circumstances.

"And it came to pass" Jesus says, "that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom : the rich man also died , and was buried ; And in hell he lift up his eyes , being in torments , and seeth Abraham afar off , and Lazarus in his bosom." - verses 22 & 23.

Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent?

Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that 'The law and the prophets were until John : since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it ' - (verse 16). Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.

Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Yahweh, their heavenly father.

On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, that is why they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:

"And he cried and said , Father Abraham , have mercy on me , and send Lazarus , that he may dip the tip of his finger in water , and cool my tongue ; for I am tormented in this flame". verse 24.
God's fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus' disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They want the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments.

"But Abraham said , Son , remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things , and likewise Lazarus evil things : but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us , that would come from thence." - verses 25 & 26.

How just and appropriate that such a dramatic reversal take place between the Lazarus class and the rich man class! The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders.
The "great chasm" that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus' disciples therefore represents God's unchangeable, righteous judgment.

The rich man next requests, 'I pray thee therefore , father , that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house : For I have five brethren' . Here the rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. (see John 8:44) The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God's judgment messages so as not to put his "five brethren", his religious allies, into "this place of torment." - verses 27 & 28.

"Abraham saith unto him , 'They have Moses and the prophets ; let them hear them .'" - verse 29.

Yes, if the five brethren would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: "Nay , father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead , they will repent.'
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'" - verses 30 & 31. God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince such. People must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor.


The context and the wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account. Poverty is not being extolled, nor are riches being condemned. Rather, conduct, final rewards, and a reversal in the spiritual status, or condition, of those represented by Lazarus and by the rich man are evidently indicated.

The time will soon come for the tables to be turned on people who are rich in worldly goods, political power, and religious control and influence, but neglect the actual doing of the will of God. They will be put down, and those who recognize their spiritual need will be lifted up. Jesus pointed to such a change in his introduction to the parable. Luke 16:16-17

If you feel you have a better explanation to the parable than this, please bring it up that we might learn from you.

ijawkid:
But you were the one who indeed personified those abstracts terms ""death"" and ""Hell"
.......All I did was tell you that for "" death"" to be thrown into the lake of fire,it only means that the lake of fire is symbolic and not a literal location were persons would be burning for all eternity.......remember I always stood by the fact that the lake of fire is a symbol of complete destruction....you were the one not agreeing.....
The bible has many times refered to ""death""as if it was a person,,.but we all know death still remains what it is..""DEATH""...and death would be thrown in the lake of fire.......completely brought to nothing............

Now my question is why will ""death "" be no more??where did death go to??I thought death would continue to be purnished in a fiery Hell..living forever...right??....a previous chapter showed you how death was thrown into the lake of fire,and now @ revelation 21:4 it is said death will be no more....how does that sound to you??....what does that tell you about the lake of fire??its a symbol of complete destruction and obliteration.....but you would continue to argue because you are bent on clinging to your eternal torment dogma.....
You asked why wasn't pain,sorrow and tears thrown into the lake of fire??....

It is simple...adamic death is the cause and the reason why we experience pain,sorrow and tears.........when death is destroyed symbolically the rest of its progeny would be gone forever too as well...



I didn't personify death...the bible did....death is called an enemy in the bible......


And that enemy death is to be destroyed,not literally tormented forever....


That's how serious the concept of death is...it has plagued mankind for too long,and that is what Gods king designate would do away with.....

Wether death is personified or not it still remains ""DEATH"".......

I will like to quote what you wrote down in your earlier posts...

""I hold that Revelations personifies death
and hades (my understanding is that you
don't think they are personified but rather
you interpret it as the concept of death
itself being annihilated)""
.......

You were even the one insisting that revelation personified death....and now you are accusing me of personifying ""death""
........
............
Fortunately the bible does personify death too....
But wether death is personified or not,it still remains death.....you can keep comparing 1 corinthians 15:24-28,revelation 21:4,revelation 20:14 until you come to an agreement that the lake of fire is a symbol of total destruction.....


Those persons whose names are found in the book of life ofcus will receive the gift of everlasting life(immortality)...why would there names be found in the book of life if not to gain eternal life??.....or did you expect they be thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed??

Now these are my points that you seem to not understand ......

1....The lake of fire is a symbol of complete destruction and not a place......

That is why both abstract and real elements are thrown into it....

The minute you understand this, your whole misconceptions and mysteries would come to an end..........

The problem you guys are having is that ,you feel that the lake of fire is literal and does have a location.........

No!!!!!!!!!!!.....

Its a symbol of complete and absolute destruction,annihilation, etc............



That is why
Satan,(person)
Demons(persons),
Death(abstract),
Wrongdoers(persons),
Wild beast(abstract),
Hades(grave)(abstract)
Etc

Are thrown into it.....

...........

Mr anony you can do better........

The gift God gives is immortality,and that gift is what satan and his cohorts can never attain........

ijawkid:
Now these are my points that you seem to not understand ......

1....The lake of fire is a symbol of complete destruction and not a place......

That is why both abstract and real elements are thrown into it....

The minute you understand this, your whole misconceptions and mysteries would come to an end..........

The problem you guys are having is that ,you feel that the lake of fire is literal and does have a location.........

No!!!!!!!!!!!.....

Its a symbol of complete and absolute destruction,annihilation, etc............



That is why
Satan,(person)
Demons(persons),
Death(abstract),
Wrongdoers(persons),
Wild beast(abstract),
Hades(grave)(abstract)
Etc

Are thrown into it.....

frosbel:

Again you miss the entire point, your theology is not consistent. Take the whole bible as one book of prophecy , study it with reference to both the old and new, if you do this , the truth will be revealed.

Cherry picking, twisting certain passages out of context and out of their their originally intended meaning , will only push you into more confusion and error.

Indeed, and which is this present earth in it's rejuvenated form.

But the outer darkness implies total darkness, try not to wriggle out of this one, that's what deceptive serpents do !

You are digging yourself into a hole.

As mentioned above , outer darkness has to mean outer darkness, darkness means the total absence of light.

Therefore to be tormented day and night in outer darkness is illogical.

Or do you have another explanation as to why there will be daylight in outer darkness. What will be the source of this day , seeing that the SUN according to Peter will be dissolved and be no more ?

If I were you I will laugh at my inability to consistently and truthfully interpret scripture in a proper and contextualised form.

Again you have to take everything literal to be consistent.

It will be rather dishonest not to , and will appear to show that you are arguing not for the truth but for tradition.

So again , the angels will have to be where this torment is taking place and our Lord ( forbid it so ) will watch them roast for all eternity.

Are you now beginning to see how silly this nonsense sounds to our ears.

Do not murder the integrity of scripture to confuse babes in Christ.

It explicitly says the devil will be no more.

For the audience, please read Ezekiel 28 , all of it, ask God for wisdom.

Mate I am older than you no doubt, but have no qualms allowing you display your hyperactive youthfulness.

Remember lolling will not get you out of this one.

We will go down to the wire on this topic , and people may just begin to see how inconsistent false teachers are.

ijawkid:

For the wicked and satan to suffer excrutiating torture eternally it means that God will have to preserve them alive forever to keep torturing them....

And that goes contrary to the scriptures and Gods standard....

LIFE is a gift and not a ""purnishment""

It is either one is dead forever or that one keeps living forever.......

Satan cannot live forever...immortality is what God gives to those who served him faithfully and not to satan and his cohorts.....

For you to deny that the dirge directed to the human ""kings of tyre"" doesn't have a parallel to the course taken by the spirit son of God who first sinned who is now called ""satan"" would be one big lie.....

There are so many parallels....
How would you actually run away from these clear verses..

Ezekiel 28:13-15....
13 Thou hast been in"" Eden the garden of God""; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the"" anointed cherub"" that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast"" perfect"" in thy ways from the daythat thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

.........

Let me point out the similarities...

1.....Eden the garden of God....that certainly corresponds to biblical information concerning satan the devil,who became puffed up with pride,and linked to the serpent in EDEN...

2.....""Annointed cherub"".....
We all know who cherubs are and ofcus satan was one........infact the king of tyre couldn't have literally been a cherub......satan was one...

3.....Verse 15 says ""thou was perfect in thy ways from the daythat thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.....

Satan was infact created a perfect being....satan was a perfect angel before his rebellion........the kings of tyre literally speaking weren't created perfect,they all were filled with adamic sin.....

...........

I know you would deny these parallels because the thought of satan being"" destroyed"" just as the kings of tyre and sidon were is so far off from your perception......

truthislight:

the question you should be asking is why will God be punishing someone for the sin they have paid the wages when they died?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23).

Yes, the wages of sin is death, and he that has died has been "forgiven/acquitted/freed from his sins that he committed befor he died the bible says:

this applied to baptism, when a sinner repent, and get baptised his former sins are forgiven.

"For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:7).
^^^
this is divine justice. It is the reason christ came to the world to undo the works of sins.

Those that have died and receives the benefit of God's resurrection, on coming up at the resurrection their former sins will have been forgiven, there coming up from resurrection they are on a clean slate.

those that have never heard about christ are going to be taught from the scrolls:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).

the acceptance or rejection of the things written on the scrolls by the dead that are resurrected determines if they will be destroyed for the second time(second death) or they will be given eternal life.

This is a clear bible teaching that the wages of sin is death and those that have died have been acquitted from sin.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:.

truthislight:

my friend, this is plain dishonesty from you.

What was the purpose of the high place they build?

That bible portion above clearly puts it this way:

"to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire"

why then are you twisting that scripture?

It was that burning of their sons and their daughters in the fire that God said it has "never entered" his heart, but you had to twist it to suite your fire fire doctrine.

There were different form of human sacrifice but God did not react in the same way like he did here.

The next time in that same Jeremiah that the warning of human sacrifice in fire came up God again made similar statement that it has never entered his heart to burn people in fire.

*sigh*

truthislight:

at this point the Adamic death will be no more as all those that died the Adamic death that is not a death by God had come out. John 5:28,29.

So, an empty grave/hell will be cast into the lake of fire, remove for ever.
meaning that Adamic death as we have it today will be no more.

But those that did not follow the instruction from the scroll then after the 1000yrs will be destroyed by God.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).

According to there works withing the 1000yrs.
Call it (by whatever means) of destruction if you like second death.

but it is not an on going event but a one off permanent removal of all the entity involve in this destruction by God permanently, like death will be remove and be no more. Rev 20:4.

What ever means of enihilation/removal
/second death/fire.

The main thing here is that this destruction is cause by God and not from Adam sin, this are human that are capable of living for a thousand years.

God is a consuming fire. He will simply consume them out of existance for all eternity. Like burning a paper instead of tearing it. When you consume something, that thing ceases to exist. Second death.

See what Isaiah says about this :

"Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10).
&

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." (Isaiah 65:20).

Second death = lake of fire is consistent with all those that have been kill or will be kill by God or rejected by God.

1. The pharisees = Gehena (fire)

2. end of this system of things = (2peter 3:10) fire.
(melting)

3. The resurrected ones = second death(fire)

fire = symbol of everlasting destruction by God.

Not that the incident keeps on going on continuously.
*edited*Je

Mr_Anony: @frosbel and @Ijawkid

Ezekiel 26-28 (RSV)

Eze 26:1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 26:2 "Son of man, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem, 'Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me; I shall be replenished, now that she is laid waste,'
Eze 26:3 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves.
Eze 26:4 They shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers; and I will scrape her soil from her, and make her a bare rock.
Eze 26:5 She shall be in the midst of the sea a place for the spreading of nets; for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD; and she shall become a spoil to the nations;
Eze 26:6 and her daughters on the mainland shall be slain by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 26:7 "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers.
Eze 26:8 He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a siege wall against you, and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you.
Eze 26:9 He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers.
Eze 26:10 His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as one enters a city which has been breached.
Eze 26:11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword; and your mighty pillars will fall to the ground.
Eze 26:12 They will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; your stones and timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters.
Eze 26:13 And I will stop the music of your songs, and the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more.
Eze 26:14 I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets; you shall never be rebuilt; for I the LORD have spoken, says the Lord GOD.
Eze 26:15 "Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: Will not the coastlands shake at the sound of your fall, when the wounded groan, when slaughter is made in the midst of you?
Eze 26:16 Then all the princes of the sea will step down from their thrones, and remove their robes, and strip off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit upon the ground and tremble every moment, and be appalled at you.
Eze 26:17 And they will raise a lamentation over you, and say to you, 'How you have vanished from the seas, O city renowned, that was mighty on the sea, you and your inhabitants, who imposed your terror on all the mainland!
Eze 26:18 Now the isles tremble on the day of your fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea are dismayed at your passing.'
Eze 26:19 "For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a city laid waste, like the cities that are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you,
Eze 26:20 then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the nether world, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living.
Eze 26:21 I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more; though you be sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord GOD."

Eze 27:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 27:2 "Now you, son of man, raise a lamentation over Tyre,
Eze 27:3 and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrance to the sea, merchant of the peoples on many coastlands, thus says the Lord GOD: "O Tyre, you have said, 'I am perfect in beauty.'
Eze 27:4 Your borders are in the heart of the seas; your builders made perfect your beauty.
Eze 27:5 They made all your planks of fir trees from Senir; they took a cedar from Lebanon to make a mast for you.
Eze 27:6 Of oaks of Bashan they made your oars; they made your deck of pines from the coasts of Cyprus, inlaid with ivory.
Eze 27:7 Of fine embroidered linen from Egypt was your sail, serving as your ensign; blue and purple from the coasts of Elishah was your awning.
Eze 27:8 The inhabitants of Sidon and Arvad were your rowers; skilled men of Zemer were in you, they were your pilots.
Eze 27:9 The elders of Gebal and her skilled men were in you, caulking your seams; all the ships of the sea with their mariners were in you, to barter for your wares.
Eze 27:10 "Persia and Lud and Put were in your army as your men of war; they hung the shield and helmet in you; they gave you splendor.
Eze 27:11 The men of Arvad and Helech were upon your walls round about, and men of Gamad were in your towers; they hung their shields upon your walls round about; they made perfect your beauty.
Eze 27:12 "Tarshish trafficked with you because of your great wealth of every kind; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged for your wares.
Eze 27:13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech traded with you; they exchanged the persons of men and vessels of bronze for your merchandise.
Eze 27:14 Beth-togarmah exchanged for your wares horses, war horses, and mules.
Eze 27:15 The men of Rhodes traded with you; many coastlands were your own special markets, they brought you in payment ivory tusks and ebony.
Eze 27:16 Edom trafficked with you because of your abundant goods; they exchanged for your wares emeralds, purple, embroidered work, fine linen, coral, and agate.
Eze 27:17 Judah and the land of Israel traded with you; they exchanged for your merchandise wheat, olives and early figs, honey, oil, and balm.
Eze 27:18 Damascus trafficked with you for your abundant goods, because of your great wealth of every kind; wine of Helbon, and white wool,
Eze 27:19 and wine from Uzal they exchanged for your wares; wrought iron, cassia, and calamus were bartered for your merchandise.
Eze 27:20 Dedan traded with you in saddlecloths for riding.
Eze 27:21 Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your favored dealers in lambs, rams, and goats; in these they trafficked with you.
Eze 27:22 The traders of Sheba and Raamah traded with you; they exchanged for your wares the best of all kinds of spices, and all precious stones, and gold.
Eze 27:23 Haran, Canneh, Eden, Asshur, and Chilmad traded with you.
Eze 27:24 These traded with you in choice garments, in clothes of blue and embroidered work, and in carpets of colored stuff, bound with cords and made secure; in these they traded with you.
Eze 27:25 The ships of Tarshish traveled for you with your merchandise. "So you were filled and heavily laden in the heart of the seas.
Eze 27:26 Your rowers have brought you out into the high seas. The east wind has wrecked you in the heart of the seas.
Eze 27:27 Your riches, your wares, your merchandise, your mariners and your pilots, your caulkers, your dealers in merchandise, and all your men of war who are in you, with all your company that is in your midst, sink into the heart of the seas on the day of your ruin.
Eze 27:28 At the sound of the cry of your pilots the countryside shakes,
Eze 27:29 and down from their ships come all that handle the oar. The mariners and all the pilots of the sea stand on the shore
Eze 27:30 and wail aloud over you, and cry bitterly. They cast dust on their heads and wallow in ashes;
Eze 27:31 they make themselves bald for you, and gird themselves with sackcloth, and they weep over you in bitterness of soul, with bitter mourning.
Eze 27:32 In their wailing they raise a lamentation for you, and lament over you: 'Who was ever destroyed like Tyre in the midst of the sea?
Eze 27:33 When your wares came from the seas, you satisfied many peoples; with your abundant wealth and merchandise you enriched the kings of the earth.
Eze 27:34 Now you are wrecked by the seas, in the depths of the waters; your merchandise and all your crew have sunk with you.
Eze 27:35 All the inhabitants of the coastlands are appalled at you; and their kings are horribly afraid, their faces are convulsed.
Eze 27:36 The merchants among the peoples hiss at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more for ever.'"


Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 28:2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you consider yourself as wise as a god--
Eze 28:3 you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you;
Eze 28:4 by your wisdom and your understanding you have gotten wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
Eze 28:5 by your great wisdom in trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth--
Eze 28:6 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Because you consider yourself as wise as a god,
Eze 28:7 therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor.
Eze 28:8 They shall thrust you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the heart of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Will you still say, 'I am a god,' in the presence of those who slay you, though you are but a man, and no god, in the hands of those who wound you?
Eze 28:10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD."
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 28:12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, topaz, and jasper, chrysolite, beryl, and onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and wrought in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
Eze 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
Eze 28:18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought forth fire from the midst of you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
Eze 28:19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more for ever."
Eze 28:20 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 28:21 "Son of man, set your face toward Sidon, and prophesy against her
Eze 28:22 and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I am against you, O Sidon, and I will manifest my glory in the midst of you. And they shall know that I am the LORD when I execute judgments in her, and manifest my holiness in her;
Eze 28:23 for I will send pestilence into her, and blood into her streets; and the slain shall fall in the midst of her, by the sword that is against her on every side. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 28:24 "And for the house of Israel there shall be no more a brier to prick or a thorn to hurt them among all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD.
Eze 28:25 "Thus says the Lord GOD: When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and manifest my holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they shall dwell in their own land which I gave to my servant Jacob.
Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell securely in it, and they shall build houses and plant vineyards. They shall dwell securely, when I execute judgments upon all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God."


I have taken the time now to paste the whole prophecy here. This prophecy is tangential to our discussion so I don't really want to pursue it on here. However, I would like you guys (and everyone else who is interested) to take the time and read it.
As I have said, the subject of the prophecy is Tyre and Sidon. The devil is referred to but he is used as a metaphor to show what will be the extent of Tyre and Sidon's destruction.
All the same, don't take my word for it. Read it and find out yourself what it is really saying.

It is funny how you guys (frosbel and Ijawkid) will happily overlook the book of Revelations where the devil's fate is described in vivid colorful detail only to come to Ezekiel 28(where the devil isn't even mentioned by name) and try to use one prophecy to cancel another out.

It is bad practice to write of Revelations as figurative only to attempt to use an even more figurative prophecy in Ezekiel to cancel out another prophecy (God forbid!)

ijawkid:

MR anony you act like you have not seen many prophecies in the bible that although when directed to a particular person or nation at a particular moment ,its fulfillment projects also to other persons....that is why we have the word ""antitype""...



......
What would you say about psalms chapter 89.??

That whole psalms was directed to david,but at some point we could also see that it was applying to Jesus even when his name wasn't mentioned.......

Jesus' name was never mentioned in the book of psalms...was it??
.
Now that is how the bible is.....

There in ezekiel chapter 28,although a dirge was directed straigth at tyre and sidon.we could see how the disobedient son of God(satan) was incorporated into that same prophecy...when you hear words like ""cherub"",created ""perfect"",you were in ""EDEN""
One whÓ is a bÍble student would know that,that chapter was also giving a gist of how satan who had a perfect standing and beginning with God,but have now turned into a renegade would meet his end...which is??total destruction......

I and frosbel were not doing selective hearing or comparing scriptures and twisting its context,rather we've used the scriptures to prove that the lake of fire is a symbol of total destruction and not some literal lake or place were persons would be wallowing in torment for all eternity...

The truth that is so hard for you to accept is that satan would be ""destroyed"".....

The hell fire dogma has totally made you reject truths staring right @ you....

Mr_Anony: @Image123, I think I have now had my fill of aimless argument. Let us discuss.

What happens to man after he dies?

Mr_Anony:
I was reading through your response a second time and I wanted to single out this bit since it is your main point......and so that we don't keep arguing in circles.

You say that eternal fire is not literal fire - I agree that it doesn't have to be literal fire.
You say that it is a symbol of complete destruction - I agree though we are not quite agreed on what the nature of that destruction is.

You list those thrown into the lake of fire - I say let us look at what the bible says will happen to them.
(Mind you, I hold that the lake of fire means destruction, I am only pointing at what this destruction really means for them.)

Satan (person) - tormented forever (Rev 20:10)
Demons (persons) - I couldn't find an explicit verse but from Matthew 25:41 we can deduce they'll be tormented forever just like the devil.
Death (abstract) - We are not told explicitly what happens to death in the lake but we can know from other verses that it is destroyed.
Wrongdoers (persons) - tormented forever (Rev 14:9-11)
Wild beast (abstract) - I don't know what this is but if you mean antichrist, then I hold that it is a person and will be tormented forever (Rev 20:10)
Hades/grave (abstract) - We are also not told explicitly what happens to hades but we can also know from other verses that it is destroyed.


Notice that whenever persons are involved, the bible takes it's time to emphasize on the torment. Please don't overlook this.

Mr_Anony: You say that eternal fire is not literal fire - I agree that it doesn't have to be literal fire.

Mr_Anony:
You say that it is a symbol of complete destruction - I agree though we are not quite agreed on what the nature of that destruction is.

Mr_Anony:
Satan (person) - tormented forever (Rev 20:10)
Demons (persons) - I couldn't find an explicit verse but from Matthew 25:41 we can deduce they'll be tormented forever just like the devil.
Death (abstract) - We are not told explicitly what happens to death in the lake but we can know from other verses that it is destroyed.

Mr_Anony: Wild beast

Mr_Anony:
Notice that whenever persons are involved, the bible takes it's time to emphasize on the torment.

Image123:
One advice, please read through this whole post first before your attempt to reply, thanks. Your point is not scriptural. Paul said,

Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
maybe not for you, but for me also, to die is gain. He said
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
He knew that when he died, he would be with Christ. Christ is not in the grave. he spoke of other believers who are with Christ,
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Believers are sleeping IN Jesus, not in the grave.

Image123:

if you truly bothered to read my posts instead of going on a monologue, you'd have observed that i'm not saying anything contrary to the resurrection. To help you, the bone of contention is that physically dead people are conscious. i've not said that they have resurrected. i've said that their activities are limited as they are in a state of rest(i.e the saints), but they are not unconscious.
Who says a person's soul cannot exist outside his body? Any scripture that says that? As far as we know, i have provided a scripture that states souls existing outside the body.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Notice the bolded phrases, and also notice that 'souls' and 'blood' are distinctly used in the passage, not equaled. Observe what later happens to this souls below, they are resurrected. the resurrection would involve the joining of the body to the soul.The souls existed outside their body, that's why they needed a resurrection. the resurrection joins them, death separates.

Image123:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Image123:

you're such a nitpicker. What are you posting from, from your misunderstanding? Here is what Ecclesiastes tells us.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes mentions the spirit and the body(dust) going different directions, did you miss that yet again?. It doesn't mention the soul. The passage provides no viewpoint on the soul's destination. Looking cummulatively at the scriptures, we can easily learn that the soul of the saints go to where is called in Revelations as 'under the altar'. This is not my idea but scripture. You are the one trying to reinterprete the scriptures given to fit your misunderstandings.

Image123:
How is the statement a twist? Here is the statement again, from my understanding, man is a living soul essentially. So, when he dies, his body(all bodies) go down, his spirit(all spirits) go up
you have english troubles if you think the statement is different in meaning from Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Which BTW was a question, hence the needed phrase, from my understanding.

Image123:

From studying the totality of scriptures, the lessons learnt show where the dead saints go to. The Bible teaches in different books and chapters that dead saints are sleeping in Jesus, under the altar, in paradise etc. We either say this passages are contradictory or understand that these passages refer to the same place in different descriptions. It is not uncommon of scriptures to describe a noun in different ways. The kingdom of heaven is described in different ways. God is described in different ways. Same goes for Jesus, The Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and same goes for the abode of dead saints. I said it twice already, why do you falsely say that i am not certain?

Image123:
Another proof that you have not bothered to listen to me, or read what i'm posting. You're more interested in a monologue, or milder still, a debate and not a discussion. i have explained earlier that the word 'hell' refers to different things in the Bible. Just like heaven refers to different things in the Bible. the context would help to know whether heaven is talking about our sky or whee God is. Hell may refer to the lake of fire, it may also refer to the grave/coffin. Jesus referred to hell, the place of judgement in His speeches. That is where the devil will be thrown in later. This hell/lake of fire is not where Jesus went when He died. he went to the grave. Nobody is in the lake of fire yet. The angels that sinned are not in the grave. they are not in the lake of fire yet, they are waiting for that. But they are somewhere that the Bible also refers to as hell.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;. Hell is not strictly the grave/coffin. you need to learn to read and study and understand scriptures cummulatively, not selectively.

Image123:

Yet another proof that you've not been reading my posts, just eager to rebut. i've earlier quoted Ecclesiastes 6v3-6 and commented on it. You may care to back read. i brought up the key verse again to re-state the reality of a proportional rest. Your stance is that all the dead(saints and sinners) are in an equal state of unconsciousness. The verse shows that one has MORE rest than the other. The sinner cannot enjoy the rest promised by Jesus Christ. Try to get the basic point first on the reality of different levels of rest. Also notice the other scriptures posted tandem that show that saints are rest[/b]ing.

Image123:
i have the right as a christian to quote from any scripture, you do not hold the copyrights. If you were sober enough, you will see that i LIKENED the saints to lazarus in the story of the rich man and lazarus. Ever heard of a simile before? iguessnot. Ever seen/read Jesus liken things before? (e.g Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven [b]is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son. ) and other numerous alikes. Focus on the point, not on the parable argument mr. Are we to delete the passage from our Bible now or what? Any mention or suggestion about the narrative, and all you churn out is that is a parable, like a parable is a sin or abomination. Again listen carefully,
The scripture teaches that dead saints have ability to receive good things, take robes, speak to God, and be sent on cameos as it were. They are in a better state than any living saint. i don't think to be 'dead and unconscious' is a better state than the potential and ability to do greater works than Jesus on earth. Don't tell us again that they are dead and unconscious, why build a doctrine on one misinterpreted and misunderstood verse in the old testament?


Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Image123:
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Make your conclusions.

Image123:

Can you prove this? Is there anything false about those statements? Does Jesus' authority supercede others? Did Jesus come from Heaven? Was Jesus teaching about the destination of man when he dies, in that passage?

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Fortunately for us, Jesus did not say the boldened. The boldened contradict other scriptures. Jesus said many things which should not be taken literally when other scriptures are considered CUMMULATIVELY. He said stuff such as,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever:
He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and His disciples. They came with a message from on His passion for Him and for His disciples. Elijah was taken to Heaven.

2Ki 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Image123:

Jesus raised many dead folks before He Himself was raised from the dead. Being the firstborn from the dead has to do with His resurrection. Resurrection involves the joiningg of the spirit, soul and body separated by death, in this case, never to die again. The dead saints are not yet joined together spirit, soul and body. They do not yet have a spiritual BODY. This is different from them being conscious, or being in heaven(under the altar, paradise, asleep in Jesus who is IN HEAVEN).

Image123:
So why does the Spirit of God use the two words 'soul' and 'blood' in the same passage, if He meant them as the same thing? Why do this 'bloods' get to reign a thousand years?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
In the ijawk version/translation, remember to write it as the below ehn!

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the bloods of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

OR

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our soul on them that dwell on the earth?

Look at this again.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You fit put blood for your own Bible wey you wan write ehn!

Image123:
And what is the relevance of this question again?

Mr_Anony:
Now my friend don't get me wrong. I have never said that Ezekiel 28 does not refer to the devil. What I am annoyed about is how you and frosbel are trying to make it say what it is not saying.
For instance, you are pointing at references to "Eden" while ignoring references to "trading" in the same chapter and about the same person.

Now imagine I was arguing based on Psalm 89 that Jesus had children, you would immediately correct me by pointing out that the Psalm was of David. You will also try to show me other parts of scripture that paint a clearer picture so that I don't get it wrong. This is the same thing I am doing for you here.

It is amazing how you can read Revelations, see it clearly stated that the devil will be tormented forever but then instead of trying to at least reconcile it with other scripture, you write it of as "figurative" only for you to pull out another figurative verse which is even more vague than in Revelations and then build your theology upon a wrong interpretation of it. That is just wrong.

Mr_Anony:
This is untrue. I believe that satan will be destroyed and his destruction will be his everlasting torment.

Mr_Anony:

Let me make something clear to you: I couldn't really care less about the fate of satan. If God by some weird chance chooses to forgive him and make him an arch angel, I will still give God the glory. It won't change anything for me.

What I won't tolerate is when someone chooses to ignore the bible and force his own imagination on it. that's where we have a problem.

This statement is worth nothing because I can equally say that the anti-hell fire dogma is influencing you.

Let me get something straight with you again: I don't want anyone to go to hell, in fact I wish there was no hell, If I had my way I would literally drag people out of it but then one thing I will not do is to deny it's existence so that I can feel comfortable.

Mr_Anony:
If a person rejects God, it will be wicked of Him to force the person into His presence for all eternity. Hell is real, denying it(even after clear verses from the scripture) does not somehow make it go away.

You know what, I think we have thrashed this issue resoundingly and we have now come to a point where we'll only be talking in circles if we continue further. I'll leave you to make of this discussion whatever you may but one thing is sure; Hell is very very real and denying it won't make it any less real. You can have the last word if you like.

truthislight:

at this point the Adamic death will be no more as all those that died the Adamic death that is not a death by God had come out. John 5:28,29.

So, an empty grave/hell will be cast into the lake of fire, remove for ever.
meaning that Adamic death as we have it today will be no more.

But those that did not follow the instruction from the scroll then after the 1000yrs will be destroyed by God.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).

According to there works withing the 1000yrs.
Call it (by whatever means) of destruction if you like second death.

but it is not an on going event but a one off permanent removal of all the entity involve in this destruction by God permanently, like death will be remove and be no more. Rev 20:4.

What ever means of enihilation/removal
/second death/fire.

The main thing here is that this destruction is cause by God and not from Adam sin, this are human that are capable of living for a thousand years.

See what Isaiah says about this :

"Let (though) favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10).
&

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days,(no child dying prematurely) nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." (Isaiah 65:20).

Note here ^^^ that a hundred years old person is refered to as a child.

So, curse by God = being destroyed by God. (second death)

how do we know?

because : "for the child shall die an hundred years old" = second death.

Second death = lake of fire is consistent with all those that have been kill or will be kill by God or rejected by God.

1. The pharisees = Gehena (fire)

2. end of this system of things = (2peter 3:10) fire.
(melting)

3. The resurrected ones = second death(fire)

fire = symbol of everlasting destruction by God.

Not that the incident keeps on going on continuously

after christ have finished his 1000yrs rulership, he will hand over a cleans human race to his father.

Mr_Anony:
The above is a good example of quoting the word of God out of context. You first developed your theory then cut and joined verses to form your collage.



Lol, another example of selective interpretation. What did God say He didn't command them to do Jer 7:31? What exactly was it that was repulsive to God here? Was it the actual burning or was it the human sacrifice?

mind before this time, God had already destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha with fire (Gen 19:24) and also consummed soldiers with fire at the command of Elijah(2Kings 1:9-12)

Mr_Anony: @Image123, I think I have now had my fill of aimless argument. Let us discuss.

What happens to man after he dies?

IMMORTALITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL

Unlike early Christianity, where hope for the dead was in a resurrection - Ancient Babylonian religion taught a belief in an immortal soul that lived on - after death.



"After death the souls of men were supposed to continue in existence....." - (Beliefs of Ancient Babylon) - The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1960), Vol. I, pg.373


"...immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Death was a passage to another kind of life." - [The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria(Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., page 556]


"the vast majority of people have come to believe Satan's lie that no matter what they do, they "shall not die" (Gen 3:4) - but become like gods by living for ever." - Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.Retired Professor of Theology, Andrews University


"This doctrine of natural immortality can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity,a perverted Judaism, and pagan philosophy, and a superstitious idolatry, to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels of Paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology: "ye shall not surely die."" -Methodist-Congregationalist clergyman, Amos Phelps (1805-1874)


"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is nowhere taught in the Holy Scriptures...The belief in the immortality of the soul came chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended." - Jewish Encyclopedia, "Immortality of the Soul," 1925.


"Nowhere in the Bible is the immortality of the soul taught. Nowhere is the soul distinct from the body, taught: A notion which has erroneously been derived from heathen philosophers." -JAMIESON, FAUSSET AND BROWN


"...Our soul is immortal, and has judges, and pays the utmost penalties whenever a man is rid of the body." - [Plato (pagan philosopher), 7th letter, 335a]



the FIRST LIE -- Genesis 3:14, "Ye shall not surely die." - is Satan's masterpiece of deception which has caused most to believe that we possess immortal souls





HELLFIRE TORMENT

Unlike Early Christianity; which believed in eternal life on a paradise earth, as the supreme reward (Mat.5:5) and everalsting destruction as the final punishment(Mat.7:13,14) - Ancient Babylon's religion espoused a place of eternal torment.


"In ancient Babylon - the nether world...is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness."- The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria; Boston, 1898 Morris Jastrow Jr., p.581

For more GO HERE

@Image123, I think I have now had my fill of aimless argument. Let us discuss.

What happens to man after he dies?

[quote author=Image123]
What is man? Man is created in the image of God. He is made a little lower than God. Made with spirit, soul and body. When man dies, he is separated i.e his spirit, soul and body are separated.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The passage tells us of the possibility of killing the body without killing the soul. When a man dies, the body dies and is separated from the soul and spirit.

If the soul that sinneth will really die, what happens to the soul that did not sin? When any man dies, their body goes down to the dust, it rots. But the spirit and the soul go to another place.

When Jesus died, He had to give up His spirit.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

His Spirit went into God's hands but His body went to the grave. i'm trying to settle this point of separation before moving on. If you have been near someone about to die, say in the hospital,

Recall the story of the dry bones in Ezekiel. Or better still, consider the below.

Jdg 15:19 But God cleaved a hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water therefrom; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof En-hakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day.

Image123:
What is man? Man is created in the image of God. He is made a little lower than God. Made with spirit, soul and body. When man dies, he is separated i.e his spirit, soul and body are separated.

The passage tells us of the possibility of killing the body without killing the soul. When a man dies, the body dies and is separated from the soul and spirit. If the soul that sinneth will really die, what happens to the soul that did not sin? When any man dies, their body goes down to the dust, it rots. But the spirit and the soul go to another place.
When Jesus died, He had to give up His spirit.

Image123:
What is man? Man is created in the image of God. He is made a little lower than God. Made with spirit, soul and body. When man dies, he is separated i.e his spirit, soul and body are separated.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The passage tells us of the possibility of killing the body without killing the soul. When a man dies, the body dies and is separated from the soul and spirit. If the soul that sinneth will really die, what happens to the soul that did not sin? When any man dies, their body goes down to the dust, it rots. But the spirit and the soul go to another place.
When Jesus died, He had to give up His spirit.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
His Spirit went into God's hands but His body went to the grave. i'm trying to settle this point of separation before moving on. If you have been near someone about to die, say in the hospital, you may have better experience of what is being said. The spirit and the soul leave the body when someone dies. Recall the story of the dry bones in Ezekiel. Or better still, consider the below.

Jdg 15:19 But God cleaved a hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water therefrom; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof En-hakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day.
This experience is common with people about to die, or women in labour. You can almost visibly see them 'going'.

1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
The soul of the child came into him again. The soul had left the body when the child died. this thing is a real life commonsense experience. Thank God, it's even recorded in scriptures, else some people no go accept. Even though its something easily observable.
That been said, the Resurrection is a future event. At the resurrection, spirit, soul and body will be re-joined together. At the resurrection however, the body will be a spiritual body, not dust or physical body. They become as the angels. Angels have a spiritual body, both good and evil angels. Satan has a spiritual body. Saints and sinners will be resurrected. The saints resurrection is termed the first resurrection. Jesus is the first to be resurrected. He was not just raised from the dead like Lazarus or Jarius' daughter, He was resurrected. Notice again in the passages below that the two parties of saints and sinners will be resurrected.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

That established, what happens to man between death and the resurrection? Like has been shown, during death, man is separated. Man's soul is the core, that's where his will and decision is. That is also where he experiences joy and sadness, it is the seat of emotions, it is the part of man that can best experience comfort or torment. When man dies, we say he is dead. God says he is sleeping or resting. The Bible reveals to us that there are varying degrees of this sleep or rest. Just like there are varying degrees of sleep, like a deep sleep and a light sleep, and one can have a good night rest. Not every man has a good rest. Sinners do not have a good rest, unlike believers. Believers enter into rest in the arms of Jesus. Believers sleep in Jesus when they die,
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Paul said "2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Believers rest in Christ when they die. Their sleep is not troubled but a place of rest. There is no such peace for the wicked. Paul called the dead believer's condition as a place to be desired, a position which is far better. Not which will be far better, but which is far better. If the dead stat of the believer was empty, it would then be better for Paul to be here on earth until the resurrection. The place of rest or sleep is a place of consciousness as evidenced by the Revelations 6 passage and the passage of the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
It should be observed that the souls of this set of dead saints were not yet resurrected, yet they could speak to God and hear from Him. They were not unaware or without sense. Also, they could rest as they were told to. It is also obseved from the rich man and Lazarus that they can hear, speak and see, thirst and rest. Ecclesiastes presents us with the state of two dead people.

Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
A baby and a man are contrasted after death. It is said that the baby HAS more rest than the man. Note that the tense is continuous, not past. Else, it may have read that 'this had more rest than the other'. All the dead are not all in the same state or even place. There is evidently a place of torment OUTSIDE the lake of fire or the grave. The devils know this. Compare the scriptures below.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

Loveaflame: I AM A STRONG LOVER OF THE BIBLE.IT IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE MY FINAL AUTHORITY ON ALL SPIRITUAL AND LIFE ISSUES.I SUGGEST WE STICK TO KINGS JAMES THE OLDEST AND MOST RELIABLE VERSION AND AMPLIFIED BIBLE VERSION FOR BETTER UNDERSTANDING.

ijawkid:


Image123 let me actually show you 3 aspects from the bibles view point of what “”SOUL””is...
And noÑe points to the fact that the soul is an immaterial part of the body that escapes to Hell or heaven before one is ressurected...



, Genesis 2:7 states: “American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of
the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the
breath of life; and man became a living "SOUL" .
.” The first man, Adam, was a soul.
The understanding that the word “soul” can mean the whole person is supported by other scriptures.
.....
For example, the Bible speaks of a soul’s doing work. (Leviticus 23:30)..
American King James Version
And whatever "soul" it be that does any work in
that same day, the same" soul" will I destroy
from among his people.

........


The soul is spoken of as being impatient, irritated, sleepless, fearful, . (Judges 16:16; Job 19:2; Psalm 119:28; Acts 2:43; )
.......
Judges 16:16.
American King James Version
And it came to pass, when she pressed him
daily with her words, and urged him, so that his
"soul" was vexed to death;

Job 19:2...
Douay-Rheims Bible
How long do you afflict my" soul", and break me
in pieces with words?

Psalm 119:28..

American King James Version
My "soul" melts for heaviness: strengthen you
me according to your word.

Acts 2:43..
American King James Version
And fear came on every" soul": and many
wonders and signs were done by the apostles.



.............
Referring to a soul as a person, Romans 13:1 states:
Darby Bible Translation
"Let every"" soul"" be subject to the authorities
that are above him. For there is no authority
except from God; and those that exist are set
up by God."




Also at 1 Peter 3:20, we read:


American King James Version
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once
the long-suffering of God waited in the days of
Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein
few, that is, eight"" souls"" were saved by water.
.”
........
Nothing in these scriptures indicates that the soul is some immaterial entity that lives on after death.
......

What about animals ? Are they souls? Consider how the Bible describes the creation of animals.
“.” (Genesis 1:20)
Darby Bible Translation
And God said, Let the waters swarm with
swarms of living ""souls"", and let fowl fly above
the earth in the expanse of the heavens...


(Genesis 1:24)
Darby Bible Translation
""And God said, Let the earth bring forth living
""souls"" after their kind, cattle, and creeping
thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind.
And it was so.""



Therefore, all living creatures—human or animal—are souls. .

Animals are infact living SOULs...

.............................
.............................
The word “soul” is used in yet another sense. At Job 33:22, we read:

“King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
"Yea, his" soul" draweth near unto the grave, and
his "life" to the destroyers.
.”

Here, the terms “soul” and “life” are used in parallel, one amplifying the meaning of the other. “Soul,” then, can also refer to the life that one enjoys as a living soul, or person. Hence, the Scriptures refer to Moses’ enemies who were seeking to take his life as “all the men who were hunting for [his] soul{PSUCHE}.” (Exodus 4:19) And concerning Jesus Christ, the Bible says: “The Son of man came . . . to give his soul [life]{PSUCHE} a ransom for many.”—Matthew 20:28.


The Bible’s definition of “soul” is simple and consistent. The word can refer to a human or an animal or to the life that a creature enjoys as a living soul..
.................
...................


Concerning what happened to the resurrection of a widow’s son, 1 Kings 17:22 states:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and
the soul(life) of the child came into him again, and
he revived.

The widows son was ressurected when life came back to Him....

And as regards Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the
body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both
soul and body in hell(gehenna)

Look at it from a well rendered translation...

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill
the body that are not able to kill the soul;
rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul
and body in (Gehenna).”


..........

That verse is simply saying we should be afraid of Yahweh who is the only one that can kill both our present existence and that to come...Yahweh is the only one that can kill us without the hope of ressurection...

Gods gift is eternal life,and he gives it to those who have been faithful....if we are rebellious then Yahweh can deprive us of eternal life,thereby being able to destroy body and soul.....



The lake of fire is there for complete destruction of those who disobeyed God....


Until an individual is ressurected he or she has no business in heaven....

Every ressurection after Jesus must follow the pattern of Jesus',who was in the tomb for 3days(without his Soul running to heaven),until he was ressurected.....





the analogy of ressurection =joining of soul,body and spirit.... is never a bible teaching but that of paganism....... ....

The teaching of the immortality of the soul totally negates the purpose of ressurection.....

If our souls are immortal then the doctrinÉ of ""ressurection"" would be a complete scam............

Image123:
What is man? Man is created in the image of God. He is made a little lower than God. Made with spirit, soul and body. When man dies, he is separated i.e his spirit, soul and body are separated.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The passage tells us of the possibility of killing the body without killing the soul. When a man dies, the body dies and is separated from the soul and spirit. If the soul that sinneth will really die, what happens to the soul that did not sin? When any man dies, their body goes down to the dust, it rots. But the spirit and the soul go to another place.
When Jesus died, He had to give up His spirit.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
His Spirit went into God's hands but His body went to the grave. i'm trying to settle this point of separation before moving on. If you have been near someone about to die, say in the hospital, you may have better experience of what is being said. The spirit and the soul leave the body when someone dies. Recall the story of the dry bones in Ezekiel. Or better still, consider the below.

Jdg 15:19 But God cleaved a hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water therefrom; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof En-hakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day.
This experience is common with people about to die, or women in labour. You can almost visibly see them 'going'.

1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
The soul of the child came into him again. The soul had left the body when the child died. this thing is a real life commonsense experience. Thank God, it's even recorded in scriptures, else some people no go accept. Even though its something easily observable.
That been said, the Resurrection is a future event. At the resurrection, spirit, soul and body will be re-joined together. At the resurrection however, the body will be a spiritual body, not dust or physical body. They become as the angels. Angels have a spiritual body, both good and evil angels. Satan has a spiritual body. Saints and sinners will be resurrected. The saints resurrection is termed the first resurrection. Jesus is the first to be resurrected. He was not just raised from the dead like Lazarus or Jarius' daughter, He was resurrected. Notice again in the passages below that the two parties of saints and sinners will be resurrected.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

That established, what happens to man between death and the resurrection? Like has been shown, during death, man is separated. Man's soul is the core, that's where his will and decision is. That is also where he experiences joy and sadness, it is the seat of emotions, it is the part of man that can best experience comfort or torment. When man dies, we say he is dead. God says he is sleeping or resting. The Bible reveals to us that there are varying degrees of this sleep or rest. Just like there are varying degrees of sleep, like a deep sleep and a light sleep, and one can have a good night rest. Not every man has a good rest. Sinners do not have a good rest, unlike believers. Believers enter into rest in the arms of Jesus. Believers sleep in Jesus when they die,
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Paul said "2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Believers rest in Christ when they die. Their sleep is not troubled but a place of rest. There is no such peace for the wicked. Paul called the dead believer's condition as a place to be desired, a position which is far better. Not which will be far better, but which is far better. If the dead stat of the believer was empty, it would then be better for Paul to be here on earth until the resurrection. The place of rest or sleep is a place of consciousness as evidenced by the Revelations 6 passage and the passage of the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
It should be observed that the souls of this set of dead saints were not yet resurrected, yet they could speak to God and hear from Him. They were not unaware or without sense. Also, they could rest as they were told to. It is also obseved from the rich man and Lazarus that they can hear, speak and see, thirst and rest. Ecclesiastes presents us with the state of two dead people.

Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
A baby and a man are contrasted after death. It is said that the baby HAS more rest than the man. Note that the tense is continuous, not past. Else, it may have read that 'this had more rest than the other'. All the dead are not all in the same state or even place. There is evidently a place of torment OUTSIDE the lake of fire or the grave. The devils know this. Compare the scriptures below.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

Ihedinobi:

Yes! Finally! Been waiting for you guys to come out of the loop

Those verses he dropped in his last post interest me greatly. I have some reservations about some of his stances, but I'm completely open to considering them.

However, look at the following passage in Hebrews 12:22-24. Quoting from the KJV (I eliminate the verse numbers for seamless reading),

. . . but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.