frosbel:

You totally miss the whole point of the death of Christ, he came to save us from SIN and it's consequence which is DEATH not eternal torment.

If our punishment was eternal torment then Jesus did not take this punishment for us. Our punishment is death and this is why Jesus came to defeat death , sin and the power behind these vices.

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil - Hebrews 2:14

this is beautifully stated.

frosbel:

You totally miss the whole point of the death of Christ, he came to save us from SIN and it's consequence which is DEATH not eternal torment.

and that ^^^ is true.

Mr_Anony:
It is good that we are working towards the same thing. What we are divided on is what it means to "perish" as shown in scripture.


Unfortunately the other verses prove no such thing. They talk about a destruction yes and the wicked being cut-off yes but what is clear also and very vivid is the depiction of conscious suffering for the wicked. You can't just airbrush that part out.



As I said to frosbel, I don't necessarily hold that the story is literal. All I am pointing you to is the message of the story. Remember, a parable is an analogy. The aim is to use a simple story to illustrate a greater truth.

The real questions here are: What is the message of that story? Why would Jesus go through the trouble of describing the sinner experiencing pain if in reality, the sinner will merely cease to exist? Why would Jesus use a false condition to illustrate a greater truth? These are the questions we must consider

fire means everlasting death.

Jesus knew the meaning of fire as he had used it earlier when he told the religiouse leaders that they cannot escape the "judgement of Gehena"

Gehena = fire outside the walls of Jerusalem..

But those pharisees where not physically thrown into that fire outside Jeruselam's walls, because they killed Jesus and were later given respectful burial, does that means that Jesus statement was false? No.

Jesus knew that his used of fire in their instance means that they are due for everlasting death, death without resurrection.

Jesus as the judge of the judgement day has the right to pronounce judgement opon them acts 17:31.

His sentence with the used of the word "fire" shows that theirs is everlasting death.

Not applying fire in way that Jesus used it creat a very big problem and lead people astray.

Lord_Reed:

I am seeing comments but no scripture.

the scripture you quoted did not say that it was during the three(3) days death period that Jesus went to the spirit in prison.

But we know that Jesus had encounters with spirit creatures when he was alive on earth and not in the grave.

Were you told that the spirit in prison were dead spirit? No.

This where angels that did not keep there original position but came down to "have the daughters of men" during noah's day.

At the flood of noah they Dematerialise to spirit body and headed back to heaven but were denied access and were held in prison.

obadiah777: VERY TRUE. ECCLESISTES 12 VS 7. HOWEVER THE ENERGY IS NOT TRANSFORMED. WATCH THIS

2 ESDRAS 14 VS 35 For after death shall the judgment come, when we shall live again: and then shall the names of the righteous be manifest, and the works of the ungodly shall be declared. AFTER DEATH > JUDGEMENT > THEN YOU LIVE AGAIN. MY POINT IS, AND I RESPECT YOUR OPINION, BUT I DONT THINK SPIRITS EVER GET COMPLETELY DESTROYED. SPIRITS ARE HUMANS BUT WITHOUT THE BODY. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE DO THEY GET DESTROYED. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS SPIRITS ARE TOTALLY ANNIHILATED AFTER SECOND DEATH.

Now the question is:::::

In ecclesiastes 12:7 what is the" spirit" that returns back to God who gave it??

And please which bible chapte® and verse is this 2 ESDRAS 14 VS 35??

Mr_Anony:
And this is the point I keep hammering on: The Second Death by definition is Eternal Torment and Eternal Separation from God it is not an annihilation/disappearance.

how can that be when "grave" and "death", abstract things are to be thrown into the lake of fire and that is the second death?

Can this abstract things be burnt with fire? No, for they dont exist as entities, but this shows that there will be no more death and grave in God's kingdom.

So also, the persons that will be thrown there will cease to exist just like death will cease to exist and also grave since there will be no more death then there will be no grave.

Ubenedictus: d. I've got news for u guyz eternal punishment is as real as temporal suffering, airbrushing it wont help.

From this your statement you are indirectly telling us that God is the cause of everybody's temporal suffering right now on earth.....abi??......

For you to say that"" eternal torment"" is as real as ""temporal suffering"" is so preposterous.....you just completely pÀinted God the evil guy who keeps on suffering peoplÉ for all eternity......


Even the now suffering we experience today has an end when we die......so why insinuate God would suffer persons for all eternity??....


So I'll ask you::::

1...Who is the cause of our temporal sufferiÑgs??

2......Who will be the cause of everlasting torment and suffering??

Reyginus: PROGRESS REPORT
As it stands now, it seems we all have agreed to the existence of a place like hell.
The problem now is the nature of hell.
Correct me If am wrong.
Edited.

hell is grave and Jesus went to hell.

Mr_Anony:
The nature of the devil's destruction is him in torment forever. (see Rev 20:10). Don't try to airbrush it out.

fire "means" the second death, dont read that in Rev20:14?

It "means" something, but you said it does not mean anything, that fire is fire.

Read from GENESIS to Revelation, "fire" is a symbol of everlasting destruction. Consistency please.

Mr_Anony:
Wrong. If it is a mere literal grave, why then would the bible make references to the fire of it?

fire is a symbol of everlasting destruction, cant you get it?

"And Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, this means the second death" Rev 20:14.

Reyginus: This defeats the tripartite nature of man.
For clarity you can tell me what part of man stays in the grave?
If its the body, why? if the spirit, can a spirit be corporeal? If the soul, how?

man is not three part.

Body + spirit = living soul.

Animals are soul also, are you saying that all the dead animal And bird and worms and flies and maggot and insects etc are kept some where by God?

Mr_Anony:
Reading Revelations 20, there is one thing we know for sure that will happen to the false prophet, the antichrist and the devil; they will be tormented forever.
Next to join them in the lake of fire are death and hades. We are told that the the state of being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.
I hold that Revelations personifies death and hades (my understanding is that you don't think they are personified but rather you interpret it as the concept of death itself being annihilated)
After that, people whose names are not written in the book of life get thrown in lake and experience the second death too. If you hold that death does not exist anymore, how do these people now die? (this should be a pointer to you that the definition of the second death cannot be the same as what you nominally know as dying).
If the devil is to be tormented forever, I see no reason why sinners who the bible makes it clear that they will share the same inheritance with him will somehow become exempt from his suffering.
My point is simple. The second death is defined as eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Ask yourself: Why would Jesus hint at suffering after physical death at all if the notion is entirely false?


Please quote a particular verse and I'll try and find the Greek of it.

satan being thrown into the lake of fire means he will under go everlasting destruction, completely destroyed.

Satan is a spirit and does not have material body, literal fire cannot burn spirit body since spirits does not have material to burn.

Using fire for satan simply shows that he will be destroyed forever.

Can literal fire burn a spirit creature? NO.

Fire = absolute/complete destruction.

Mckybarf: i wonder who is missing the point here. According to scripture unless a man accepts Christ and turns from his old ways, he is doomed to be condemned with the devil with unquenchable fire in a place where there is gnashing of teeth and the likes. Physical death is for all men but spiritual death(separation from God) is as a result of adams sin. If a man refuses to accept Christ, he is spiritually dead but his punishment is not until God comes to judge the world and recompense every man according to his deeds.

fire = everlasting destruction.

A death not from Adamic sin but from God that has the power to completely destroy a man without the hope of a resurrection which he God is the one that can give resurrection.

When fire is used it means it is final, everlasting destruction.

truthislight:

hell is grave and Jesus went to hell.

If hell is grave then somethings must be going on even in that place "hell" to the "things" there that is not good.

@ all, it is amusing reading back and forth the perspectives and angles of human beings. I very much doubt that we can all reach an agreed conclusion, however, very soon, we will all get to know what is the truth.

One thing is however true, perfectly true, God's judgment is JUST. Nobody else can experience the pains of miscarraiged justice over God. Our knowledge is also severely limited, lets keep that in mind and our minds struggle to comprehend an incomprehensible God which makes the purpose of this thread though educating but also liable to futility.

You could keep going back and forth and neither sides shifting ground on the nature of the second death. Non-existence versus eternal dying if I get both sides right. May God grant us understanding in this matter.

Reyginus: I see fact where you see error.
Sir, can you help me with 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

that we it is that man is:

body + spirit = soul

those that mean it is a crime to mention spirit, body and soul together?

[quote author=]
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
[/quote]

did you not notice the word "wholly"
unlike you that says that the soul will leave the body to be tormented?

"wholly" = intact, meaning the body and spirit that gives the soul or the their life should be preserved.

Will the physical body then go to heaven? No,
But the life of this people should be preserved.

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven" 1cor 15:50.

It is a reference to the life.

It is not saying that :

body + spirit + soul = living soul (man)
^^^
does that make sense?

Freksy:

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them : and they were judged every man according to their works . 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire . This is the second death . 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" . Rev. 20:13-15 KJV

My questions: if hell is really a place of torment, why would those in it come back for judgement? On what basis were they sent to hell in the first place?

Its usage in verse 13 perfectly fit that of a grave - the place for the deads. Delivering up of people from it is nothing, but resurrection of the deads from it for judgement.

lets look at this closely

]
Rev. 20:13

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ; and death and [b:
hell delivered up the dead which were in them

^^^

this means that hell will be empty befor it is destroys or thrown into the lake of fire

[quote author=]
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire .
[/quote]

so from this, it is an empty hell that will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Since the death in hell will all be out befor hell is thrown into the lake of fire what will the "hell fire" burn then?

Note: Empty Hell thrown into lake of fire.

End of story. QED.

.

Reyginus: .

And what is it??

That people would be literally tormented day and night in a fiery HELL and that there smoke will continue to rise up forever??.....

truthislight:

man is not three part.

Body + spirit = living soul.

Animals are soul also, are you saying that all the dead animal And bird and worms and flies and maggot and insects etc are kept some where by God?

Lol. Before you start comparing man to other animals you must know that they lack freewill and were not made in the image and likeness of God.
So this comparison is illogical.

obadiah777:
2 ESDRAS 14 VS 35 [b]For after death shall the judgment come, when we shall live again: and then shall the names of the righteous be manifest, and the works of the ungodly shall be declared.

^^^

is that bible

obadiah777: AND TRUTHISLIGHT SAYS THE BODY IS THE MAN AND YOU ARE POWERED BY SOME ELECTRICITY LOL. WELL THIS PROVES YOUR THEORY IS A WASH. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR SPIRIT WHEN YOU ARE DEAD

JOB 3 VS 17 There the wicked cease from turmoil,
and there the weary are at rest.
18 Captives also enjoy their ease;
they no longer hear the slave driver’s shout.
19 The small and the great are there,
and the slaves are freed from their owners. YOUR PERSONALITY IS STILL INTACT WHILE YOUR SPIRIT IS STILL WHOLESOME. YOU ARE JUST RESTING. THOSE VERSES PROVE SPIRITS ARE HUMANS WITHOUT THE BODY

i dont understand you, that place is talking about the grave and unconsciousness, all worries are gone, the brain is dead the man is dead, none existance. Psalm 146:4.

Its as though they are sleeping with their mind at ease.

truthislight:

that we it is that man is:

body + spirit = soul

those that mean it is a crime to mention spirit, body and soul together?



did you not notice the word "wholly"
unlike you that says that the soul will leave the body to be tormented?

"wholly" = intact, meaning the body and spirit that gives the soul or the their life should be preserved.

Will the physical body then go to heaven? No,
But the life of this people should be preserved.

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven" 1cor 15:50.

It is a reference to the life.

It is not saying that :

body + spirit + soul = living soul (man)
^^^
does that make sense?

It's not a matter of making sense. Even wrong ideas make sense to those who propose them.
The passage wasnt talking about an afterlife, but a present one. Your first error was relating it to the afterlife where their should be none.
Remember the rules to this discusion suggest that metaphoric or other meanings should not be ascribed to things that make sense literally. The sense which the word 'wholly' was used in the passage does not tell anything of the afterlife, but the present one. So, the question of tormenting shouldnt even be there.
Spirit+body+soul=man.

Abbott:

If hell is grave then somethings must be going on even in that place "hell" to the "things" there that is not good.

how? There is no oxygen in the grave to sustain literal fire.

But biblical fire means permanent destruction.

ijawkid:

And what is it??

That people would be literally tormented day and night in a fiery HELL and that there smoke will continue to rise up forever??.....

That's not the question.
If you insist that grave is hell, what part of the nature of man stay buried? That aside.
If their is eternal torment like you would want me believe, what is this passage talking about. Mattew 25:41

Reyginus: It's not a matter of making sense. Even wrong ideas make sense to those who propose them.
The passage wasnt talking about an afterlife, but a present one. Your first error was relating it to the afterlife where their should be none.
Remember the rules to this debate suggest that metaphoric or other meanings should not be ascribed to things that make sense literally. The sense which the word 'wholly' was used in the passage does not tell anything of the afterlife, but the present one. So, the question of tormenting shouldnt even be there.
Spirit+body+soul=man.

what does the word preserved means?

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

^^^
read it again.

If it is not in the future in God's kingdom how then are they preserved?

Are they still alive today?

Reyginus:
Spirit+body+soul=man.

from this cant you see that there is repetition?
Man and soul are the same thing.
Read this:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7).

"and man became a living soul."

so, it is either you put it thus:
spirit + body + man = a living soul
(which is wrong)

or you put it thus :
spirit + body = man + a living soul

because that genesis says that :
"and man became a living soul."
meaning that man is the soul

man and soul = same thing.

So, your maths is wrong due to the repetition of man and soul.

See, Spirit+body+soul=man. Error.
This two are same: soul=man.

Reyginus: That's not the question.
If you insist that grave is hell, what part of the nature of man stay buried? That aside.
If their is eternal torment like you would want me believe, what is this passage talking about. Mattew 25:41

Man is only a living soul because he has the spirit of GOD in him.

[quote author=Abbott]@ all, it is amusing reading back and forth the perspectives and angles of human beings. I very much doubt that we can all reach an agreed conclusion, however, very soon, we will all get to know what is the truth.

indeed we will , some before others , lol.

One thing is however true, perfectly true, God's judgment is JUST. Nobody else can experience the pains of miscarraiged justice over God.

Quite True

Our knowledge is also severely limited, lets keep that in mind and our minds struggle to comprehend an incomprehensible God which makes the purpose of this thread though educating but also liable to futility.

We should never struggle to understand the mind of GOD.

This is precisely why we have so many incomprehensible doctrines which so many are forced to accept without a proper searching of scripture.

It is quite dubious and dishonest when our so called MOG Leaders want to us suspend all logic, thinking and application of truth.

God has made certain things very very clear in his WORD , if we do not understand it, it is our fault and could be due to the love for tradition more than truth, laziness and more worryingly the fear of MAN. We are worried that we might be kicked out of our churches, disowned by our pastor and even our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Remember the fear of man brings a snare.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The fear of man brings a snare: but whosoever puts his trust in the LORD shall be safe - Proverbs 29:25

Any doctrine we cannot understand our MOG and false teachers tell us they are mysteries , well have you heard of mystery babylon in the book of revelations, she is the apostate church full of mysteriousness.

Why should the word of GOD be a mystery when we have 66 books in the bible with thousands of pages and millions of precious God breathed words all revealing the nature of GOD , his love for man, his hatred for sin, his punishment of the wicked and the redemption of the righteous. Even more importantly we have the Spirit of GOD to reveal deeper meanings of these truths if we have humility and a love for his word.

What is the point in having a bible when nowadays everything is a mystery,

I tell you what many people like , DECEPTION .

truthislight:

what does the word preserved means?

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

^^^
it again.

If it is not in the future in God's kingdom how then are they preserved?

Are they still alive today.


from this cant you see that there is repetition?
Man and soul are the same thing.
Read this:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7).

"and man became a living soul."

so, it is either you put it thus:
spirit + body + man = a living soul
(which is wrong)

or you put it thus :
spirit + body = man + a living soul

because that genes says that :
"and man became a living soul."
meaning that man is the soul

man and soul = same thing.

So, your maths is wrong due to the repetition of man and soul.

See, Spirit+body+soul=man. Error.
This two are same: soul=man.

You dont get it. The 'living soul' is the quality of man indicating life. It's not a description of the sub-materials of man as you think.
I will explain.
The body can take any form. It can be physical or spiritual. But the body we are talking about here is the fleshy part of man which can be palpated.
The spirit is the inner man. That which makes us distinct from every other creature. It is what makes you you.
The soul inhabits any of the above two. It cannot exist on its own. It requires a physical or spiritual case.
Since a soul is a dependent entity, when the case dies, it dies as well. Then it ceases to be a living soul. A dead soul is a dead body. The scriptures you quoted do not in any way describe it as a look into the parts of man. You are the person misunderstanding everything.

frosbel:

Man is only a living soul because he has the spirit of GOD in him.

Lol. Man is a living soul because God breathed life into him.
If am to go by this your doctrine, it will follow that animals too have the spirit of God in them, because they are living souls. And also when the soul dies the spirit dies too. That will be bunch of confusion.

Reyginus: That's not the question.
If you insist that grave is hell, what part of the nature of man stay buried? That aside.
If their is eternal torment like you would want me believe, what is this passage talking about. Mattew 25:41

You should ask what part of adam stayed buried in HELL...I think that will answer your question........


And it seems you've been mistaken me for some one else.......

I don't believe in a literal torment of wrong doers in a fiery place,I believe in total destruction......

Reyginus: That's not the question.
If you insist that grave is hell, what part of the nature of man stay buried? That aside.
If their is eternal torment like you would want me believe, what is this passage talking about. Mattew 25:41

Can you please compare matthew 25:41 and jude 7??....

1....Matthew 25:41
American King James Version
Then shall he say also to them on the left hand,
Depart from me, you cursed, into ""everlasting
fire"", prepared for the devil and his angels:

2....
King James Version (KJV)
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities
about them in like manner, giving themselves
over to fornication, and going after strange
flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering
the vengeance of ""eternal fire""

Sodom and gomorah was an example of those who suffered the vengeance of ""eternal fire""......

If satan and his angels would suffer the same(eternal or everlasting fire) that sodom and gomorah under went,then ofcus we know what the end result would be......we know sodom and gomarrah isn't still burning till this moment.....

Sodom and gomorah was brought to nothing,completely destroyed....so it will be with satan and his cohorts......

ijawkid:

You should ask what part of adam stayed buried in HELL...I think that will answer your question........


And it seems you've been mistaken me for some one else.......

I don't believe in a literal torment of wrong doers in a fiery place,I believe in total destruction......

Weak dodge.