Mr_Anony:
Haba Bros, Have we started translation jumping already? I thought we agreed on only KJV and RSV?!

Lol....

I just had to chip in the darby translation for the sake of lucidity since the Kjv sometimes used the words (life) or (creature) when rendering the. Hebrew and greek word§ for """.soul"".


But the hebrew and greek words that are rendered as SOUL is what is used in all the verses I've quoted....

And they are NEPHESH $ PSUCHE respectively......

So I'm still on trÀck......lol.....

Goodmorning....

^
I'm trying to have a discussion here, don't look forward to my replying you and co at least for now.

Mr_Anony: Wow, who has been feeding you this stuff?
I'll leave your explanation aside for now however, here's something I want you to seriously consider:

Think of all of Jesus' parables for a minute. You'll probably notice that what Jesus does is to use an example which the Jews know to be true (i.e. something they can relate to) to explain Heavenly theories.

For instance, the prodigal son, the marriage feast, the sower, the good samaritan, the ten virgins e.t.c. All of Jesus parables are simple easy realistic stories that have a greater meaning.

The question now is: If there really isn't any torment in hell after death, why then would Jesus use a LIE to represent a greater truth?

Nobody doubts the bolded. Jesus often used what his audience were familiar with in his sermons. The Pharisees were familiar with Gehenna when he related the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to them. The meaning of the parable had nothing to do with burning of things in fire of Gehenna or grave or hades or hell.

For instance, did Jesus want his listeners to believe that there are prodigal sons in heaven, that there will be marriage feasts in heaven, that there are cultivable lands for seed-sowing in heaven, that there are robbers and good samaritans in heaven, that there are ten virgins in heaven? Certainly not! These illustrations/parables, though drawn from familiar situations have different meanings from their literal interpretations.

Explaining a parable is much like solving a riddle? First of all you need to consider the settings, the context and seek to understand what the characters and actions represent.

Read below the Parable of the sower in Matthew 13:2-8 and its explanation in verses 18-23 to see what I am talking about.

[2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
[3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
[5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
[6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
[7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
[8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Explanation by Jesus:

[18] "Hear then the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.
[20] As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
[21] yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
[22] As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[23] As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

What literal resemblance does the characters/actions in verses 2-8 have with what they represent or symbolize in verses 18 - 23? Nothing!!!

Would it not sound hilarious for me to ask:

If there really isn't any seed-sowing in heaven, why then would Jesus use a LIE to represent a greater truth? ...........Quite similar to your question above!

Freksy:


Nobody doubts the bolded. Jesus often used what his audience were familiar with in his sermons. The Pharisees were familiar with Gehenna when he related the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to them. The meaning of the parable had nothing to do with burning of things in fire of Gehenna or grave or hades or hell.

For instance, did Jesus want his listeners to believe that there are prodigal sons in heaven, that there will be marriage feasts in heaven, that there are cultivable lands for seed-sowing in heaven, that there are robbers and good samaritans in heaven, that there are ten virgins in heaven? Certainly not! These illustrations/parables, though drawn from familiar situations have different meanings from their literal interpretations.

Explaining a parable is much like solving a riddle? First of all you need to consider the settings, the context and seek to understand what the characters and actions represent.

Read below the Parable of the sower in Matthew 13:2-8 and its explanation in verses 18-23 to see what I am talking about.

[2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
[3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
[5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
[6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
[7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
[8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Explanation by Jesus:

[18] "Hear then the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.
[20] As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
[21] yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
[22] As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[23] As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

What literal resemblance does the characters/actions in verses 2-8 have with what they represent or symbolize in verses 18 - 23? Nothing!!!

Would it not sound hilarious for me to ask:

If there really isn't any seed-sowing in heaven, why then would Jesus use a LIE to represent a greater truth? ...........Quite similar to your question above!

Perfect!!!!!!......brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!........

@Anony

pls, am still waiting and hoping that you will attempt an explanation to this scriptures at Isaiah :


"Let (though) favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10).
&

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days,(no child dying prematurely) nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." (Isaiah 65:20).
1. Can you help me to show me how a person that is though a 100yrs old will die as a mere boy?

2. Where do you think is the land of straith forwardness that the unrighteous will be shown mercy?

Is this scripture not in the bible?

If you closely look at that scripture it will reveal a lot of things to you and others.

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Daniel 12:4).

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:" (1 Corinthians 2:7).

The bible information is not contain like in a TEXT book.
Compare that with what will happened when satan is release after the 1000yrs imprisonment below:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom(killed) is as the sand of the sea." (Revelation 20:7-.

^^^ compare that Revelation with this Isaiah below:

"Let (though) favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10).

During the 1000yrs judgement "day" the unrighteose resurectected ones will be given an opportunity(shown mercy) but most of them will not make full use of it and will act unjustly still and will have to be kill befor christ hand over rulership over to God (Yahweh), so, they will not see the majesty of God.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28).
Peace.

For those of us who want a better understanding of the nature of man and what happens at death , please read ARTICLE

The entire book can be found HERE

May I advice that you bookmark these links.

This is not for the faint hearted or for those in a hurry, it has to be read with the bible alongside and endless scriptures are quoted.

I guarantee that if after reading this book, we still hold onto this farce, then only God can open our eyes.


Let me post some excerpts :

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia acknowledges that "we are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament. The whole man dies, when in death the spirit (Ps 146:4; Eccl 12:7), or soul (Gen 35:18; 2 Sam 1:9; 1 Kings 17:21; Jonah 4:3), goes out of a man. Not only his body, but his soul also returns to a state of death and belongs to the nether-world; therefore the Old Testament can speak of a death of one’s soul (Gen 37:21; Num 23:10; Deut 22:21; Jud 16:30; Job 36:14; Ps 78:50)."52

The most common word, shachav, is used in the frequently occuring expression so-and-so "slept with his fathers" (Gen 28:11; Deut 31:16; 2 Sam 7:12; 1 Kings 2:10). Beginning with its initial application to Moses ("Behold, you are about to sleep with your fathers" – Deut 31:16), and then to David ("Thou shall sleep with thy fathers" – 2 Sam 7:12, KJV), and Job ("Now I shall sleep in the dust" – Job 7:21, KJV), we find this beautiful euphemism for death running like an unbroken thread all through the Old and New Testaments, ending with Peter’s statement that "the fathers fell asleep" (2 Pet 3:4). Commenting on these references, Basil Atkinsom aptly observes: "Thus the kings and others who died are said to sleep with their fathers. If their spirits were alive in another world, could this possibly be regularly said without a hint that the real person was not sleeping at all?"55

Another Hebrew word for "sleep" is yashen. This word occurs both as a verb, "to sleep" (Jer 51:39, 57; Ps 13:3) and as a noun, "sleep." The latter is found in the well-known verse of Daniel 12:2: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Notice that in this passage both the godly and ungodly are sleeping in the dust of the earth and both will be resurrected at the End.

A third Hebrew word used for the sleep of death is shenah. Job asks this rhetorical question: "But man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?" (Job 14:10). His answer is: "As waters fail from a lake, and a river wastes away and dries up, so man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake, or be roused out of his sleep [shenah]" (Job 14:11-12; cf. Ps 76:5; 90:5). Here is a graphic description of death. When a person takes the last breath, "where is he?" that is, "what is left of him?" Nothing. He does not exist any more. He becomes like a lake or river whose water has dried up. He sleeps in the grave and "will not awake" till the end of the world.

One wonders, would Job have given us such a negative description of death if he believed that his soul would survive death? If death introduced Job’s soul into the immediate presence of God in heaven, why does he speak of waiting "till the heavens are no more" (John 14:11) and "till my release should come" (Job 14:14)? It is evident that neither Job nor any other Old Testament believer knew of a conscious existence after death.

^
but I've being showing you from the Scriptures all this while that when a man dies, his spirit and soul depart from his body. All you did was call me pagan and traditional. Thank God you've at last read it in an article.

Image123: ^
but I've being showing you from the Scriptures all this while that when a man dies, his spirit and soul depart from his body. All you did was call me pagan and traditional. Thank God you've at last read it in an article.

when a man dies, his spirit which is translated breath ( a gift of life ) returns to GOD.

without this gift of life from GOD , MAN is inanimate.

Freksy:


Nobody doubts the bolded. Jesus often used what his audience were familiar with in his sermons. The Pharisees were familiar with Gehenna when he related the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to them. The meaning of the parable had nothing to do with burning of things in fire of Gehenna or grave or hades or hell.

For instance, did Jesus want his listeners to believe that there are prodigal sons in heaven, that there will be marriage feasts in heaven, that there are cultivable lands for seed-sowing in heaven, that there are robbers and good samaritans in heaven, that there are ten virgins in heaven? Certainly not! These illustrations/parables, though drawn from familiar situations have different meanings from their literal interpretations.

Explaining a parable is much like solving a riddle? First of all you need to consider the settings, the context and seek to understand what the characters and actions represent.

Read below the Parable of the sower in Matthew 13:2-8 and its explanation in verses 18-23 to see what I am talking about.

[2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
[3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
[5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
[6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
[7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
[8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Explanation by Jesus:

[18] "Hear then the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.
[20] As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
[21] yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
[22] As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[23] As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

What literal resemblance does the characters/actions in verses 2-8 have with what they represent or symbolize in verses 18 - 23? Nothing!!!

Would it not sound hilarious for me to ask:

If there really isn't any seed-sowing in heaven, why then would Jesus use a LIE to represent a greater truth? ...........Quite similar to your question above!

Hmm ok, It seems to me that you are now deliberately trying to misunderstand my question but I'll give you the benefit of doubt one more time. . . . .

The issue we have before us is not the interpretation of the parable but the parable itself.

What is a parable? A parable is an analogous story used to explain a more complex phenomenon. It is usually a realistic story that the listener is conversant with and can easily relate to.

Jesus' parables are usually simple stories such as a sower sowing seed. This is a story that the Jews can easily relate to because they are familiar with it. The same applies for a son who leaves his father and squanders his money, a wedding feast e.t.c. All these are simple stories that the 1st century Jew can easily relate to because they are part of what he knows. Jesus then goes on to give a greater meaning to a very simple story by relating it to a much bigger picture i.e. God's kingdom.

Now this is the dilemma you face. You lot claim that the concept of conscious torment after death is alien to scripture and it doesn't even exist. The question now becomes: Why would Jesus use a story that does not exist i.e. a story that his audience cannot possibly even begin to relate to in order to explain a greater truth?

I still maintain that the Jews were very aware of the concept of conscious torment after death in the same way that they were very aware of the concept of a sower sowing seeds. It was a normal everyday understanding for them that evil people will suffer after death while the righteous will be comforted after death. . . . .and Jesus Christ obviously held the same.

In every argument, you can escape the truth if you pay a high enough price. For this one, the price would be to say that Christ didn't know what He was talking about. That's the steep price I'm afraid you will have to pay for you to properly deny torment of the sinner after physical death.
I truly hope that for your sakes, you are not comfortable paying this price.

truthislight: @Anony

pls, am still waiting and hoping that you will attempt an explanation to this scriptures at Isaiah :


"Let (though) favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10).
&

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days,(no child dying prematurely) nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." (Isaiah 65:20).
1. Can you help me to show me how a person that is though a 100yrs old will die as a mere boy?

2. Where do you think is the land of straith forwardness that the unrighteous will be shown mercy?

Is this scripture not in the bible?

If you closely look at that scripture it will reveal a lot of things to you and others.

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Daniel 12:4).

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:" (1 Corinthians 2:7).

The bible information is not contain like in a TEXT book.
Compare that with what will happened when satan is release after the 1000yrs imprisonment below:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom(killed) is as the sand of the sea." (Revelation 20:7-.

^^^ compare that Revelation with this Isaiah below:

"Let (though) favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10).

During the 1000yrs judgement "day" the unrighteose resurectected ones will be given an opportunity(shown mercy) but most of them will not make full use of it and will act unjustly still and will have to be kill befor christ hand over rulership over to God (Yahweh), so, they will not see the majesty of God.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28).
Peace.

I have taken the time this morning to read the passages you put forth but then I must say, I don't quite gt exactly what point you are trying to make. Maybe because I've been away for some time and therefore lost the string of thought. I don't know, but could you be so kind as to clarify for me exactly the point you are out to make?

Mr_Anony:
Hmm ok, It seems to me that you are now deliberately trying to misunderstand my question but I'll give you the benefit of doubt one more time. . . . .

The issue we have before us is not the interpretation of the parable but the parable itself.

What is a parable? A parable is an analogous story used to explain a more complex phenomenon. It is usually a realistic story that the listener is conversant with and can easily relate to.

Jesus' parables are usually simple stories such as a sower sowing seed. This is a story that the Jews can easily relate to because they are familiar with it. The same applies for a son who leaves his father and squanders his money, a wedding feast e.t.c. All these are simple stories that the 1st century Jew can easily relate to because they are part of what he knows. Jesus then goes on to give a greater meaning to a very simple story by relating it to a much bigger picture i.e. God's kingdom.

Now this is the dilemma you face. You lot claim that the concept of conscious torment after death is alien to scripture and it doesn't even exist. The question now becomes: Why would Jesus use a story that does not exist i.e. a story that his audience cannot possibly even begin to relate to in order to explain a greater truth?

I still maintain that the Jews were very aware of the concept of conscious torment after death in the same way that they were very aware of the concept of a sower sowing seeds. It was a normal everyday understanding for them that evil people will suffer after death while the righteous will be comforted after death. . . . .and Jesus Christ obviously held the same.

In every argument, you can escape the truth if you pay a high enough price. For this one, the price would be to say that Christ didn't know what He was talking about. That's the steep price I'm afraid you will have to pay for you to properly deny torment of the sinner after physical death.
I truly hope that for your sakes, you are not comfortable paying this price.

@Anony

if this was not a pareble directing at the rich religiouse leaders of Jesus day that rejected him and the poor ordinary Jews of his day, why did he not say the wicked and lazarus?

This pareble addresses the rejection of the rich religiouse pharisees and their permanent rejection by God of their system (as shown by the fire) while they are still alive they suffer torment as a result of this rejection,

while alive the poor lazarus was now the fevoured ones enjoying the blesing of the promise to Abraham.

This same religious pharisees had earlier been cursed by Jesus with fire:

"And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:30-33).

But this pareble is comparable of two set of people and the shift of God's favour while they are alive.

The issues in this pareble is on the following of CHRIST, Abraham seed and getting the blessing of Abraham.

In no way is Jesus saying that all rich men will be burnt in fire.

Neither is christ saying that all poor men are going to heaven.

Will that mean that the "sin" that determine heaven and fire is money? No.

Reading the book of acts of the apostle we see the anguish that the pharisees went through as a result of the rejection they got by the christian apostle that preach about christ and people accepted christ as the way to God. They became very bitter.

Fire we know is a symbol of everlasting rejection/destruction. The rejection of the religiouse pharisees and form of worship was final.

The way to gaining Abraham blessing is christ that the poor (lazarus) was following.

Ezekiel 28:17-19 (RSV)

17 Your heart was proud because
of your beauty; you corrupted your
wisdom for the sake of your
splendor. I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings, to
feast their eyes on you. 18 By the
multitude of your iniquities, in the
unrighteousness of your trade you
profaned your sanctuaries; so I
brought forth fire from the midst
of you; it consumed you, and I
turned you to ashes upon the
earth in the sight of all who saw
you. 19 All who know you among
the peoples are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more for ever."

This a prophesy of what must happen to satan.

He shall be burnt to ashes and shall be NO MORE FOREVER.

If you don't believe this prophesy from God, it means you are forming your own belief.

Boomark: Ezekiel 28:17-19 (RSV)

17 Your heart was proud because
of your beauty; you corrupted your
wisdom for the sake of your
splendor. I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings, to
feast their eyes on you. 18 By the
multitude of your iniquities, in the
unrighteousness of your trade you
profaned your sanctuaries; so I
brought forth fire from the midst
of you; it consumed you, and I
turned you to ashes upon the
earth in the sight of all who saw
you. 19 All who know you among
the peoples are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more for ever."

This a prophesy of what must happen to satan.

He shall be burnt to ashes and shall be NO MORE FOREVER.

If you don't believe this prophesy from God, it means you are forming your own belief.

Gbam!

truthislight:

@Anony

if this was not a pareble directing at the rich religiouse leaders of Jesus day that rejected him and the poor ordinary Jews of his day, why did he not say the wicked and lazarus?

This pareble addresses the rejection of the rich religiouse pharisees and their permanent rejection by God of their system (as shown by the fire) while they are still alive they suffer torment as a result of this rejection,

while alive the poor lazarus was now the fevoured ones enjoying the blesing of the promise to Abraham.

This same religious pharisees had earlier been cursed by Jesus with fire:

"And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:30-33).

But this pareble is comparable of two set of people and the shift of God's favour while they are alive.

The issues in this pareble is on the following of CHRIST, Abraham seed and getting the blessing of Abraham.

In no way is Jesus saying that all rich men will be burnt in fire.

Neither is christ saying that all poor men are going to heaven.

Will that mean that the "sin" that determine heaven and fire is money? No.

Reading the book of acts of the apostle we see the anguish that the pharisees went through as a result of the rejection they got by the christian apostle that preach about christ and people accepted christ as the way to God. They became very bitter.

Fire we know is a symbol of everlasting rejection/destruction. The rejection of the religiouse pharisees and form of worship was final.

The way to gaining Abraham blessing is christ that the poor (lazarus) was following.

Still missing the point are we?

Boomark: Ezekiel 28:17-19 (RSV)

17 Your heart was proud because
of your beauty; you corrupted your
wisdom for the sake of your
splendor. I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings, to
feast their eyes on you. 18 By the
multitude of your iniquities, in the
unrighteousness of your trade you
profaned your sanctuaries; so I
brought forth fire from the midst
of you; it consumed you, and I
turned you to ashes upon the
earth in the sight of all who saw
you. 19 All who know you among
the peoples are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more for ever."

This a prophesy of what must happen to satan.

He shall be burnt to ashes and shall be NO MORE FOREVER.

If you don't believe this prophesy from God, it means you are forming your own belief.

Hahahahaha......It is so funny when folks just throw verses about.
(Usually I don't argue like this but it appears that it is the only way you can understand)

Well, since we are throwing verses today, here's one for you.

Revelations 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This a prophesy of what must happen to satan.

He shall be thrown into the lake of fire and shall be TORMENTED FOREVER.

If you don't believe this prophesy from God, it means you are forming your own belief.

Mr_Anony:
Hahahahaha......It is so funny when folks just throw verses about.
(Usually I don't argue like this but it appears that it is the only way you can understand)

Well, since we are throwing verses today, here's one for you.

Revelations 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This a prophesy of what must happen to satan.

He shall be thrown into the lake of fire and shall be TORMENTED FOREVER.

If you don't believe this prophesy from God, it means you are forming your own belief.

pls dont do this, throwing scriptures around never helps a discussion at d end sum1 is accusing d oda of heresy and vice versa, pls keep d scripture flowing dnt throw them abt.

Ubenedictus: pls dont do this, throwing scriptures around never helps a discussion at d end sum1 is accusing d oda of heresy and vice versa, pls keep d scripture flowing dnt throw them abt.

I'm sorry, my mistake

Mr_Anony:
Hahahahaha......It is so funny when folks just throw verses about.
(Usually I don't argue like this but it appears that it is the only way you can understand)

Well, since we are throwing verses today, here's one for you.

Revelations 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This a prophesy of what must happen to satan.

He shall be thrown into the lake of fire and shall be TORMENTED FOREVER.

If you don't believe this prophesy from God, it means you are forming your own belief.

Do you know that Eze 28:17-19 and Rev 20:10 are contradictory?

Mr_Anony:
Still missing the point are we?

it is not missing any point.

It is about rejection/destruction of a religiouse system.

This used of fire to symbolised what God has rejected permanently is very consistent in the bible.

1. Rejection of the pharisees = fire
2. The harlot of revelation = fire
3. the false prophet = fire.

Now to show that the fire is symbolically representing permanent destruction see how the "kings" of the earth is used in this two passages:

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of "kings," and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17,18).

^^^ here the kings of the earth is killed with the sword by christ and the birds of heaven are to feed on them, but since this destruction is permanent/eternal/everlasting, Vers 19&20 below still mention the kings again in relation with fire to drive home the point that the destruction is permanent. :

"And I saw the beast, and the "kings" of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Revelation 19:19-20).

^^^ this is showing that those entities mention there are permanently remove befor the next phase of God's plan, the 1000yrs reign of christ.

The sense that the fire is used here for removal/rejection of the false prophet and "kings" is the same way that the pharisees and their form of worship was permanently rejected in Jesus day as shown by the fire in the pareble of the rich man and lazarus.

All thing that God uses fire to reference faces ETERNAL rejection and removal.

That pherisaic form of worship was permanently rejected by Jesus with that pareble.

Boomark:

Do you know that Eze 28:17-19 and Rev 20:10 are contradictory?

Lol, no they are not.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, no they are not.

Tell me how.
One said he will be burnt to ashes and be no more forever while the other said he will be thrown into the lake of fire where he will be alive and tormented forever.

Boomark:

Tell me how.
One said he will be burnt to ashes and be no more forever while the other said he will be thrown into the lake of fire where he will be alive and tormented forever.

My brother, these guys will never get it or maybe they will one day.

They are creating more atheists than the devil daily by preaching these falsehoods and refusing to unlearn their dogmatic tradition and learn the simple truths of scripture.

Boomark:

Tell me how.
One said he will be burnt to ashes and be no more forever while the other said he will be thrown into the lake of fire where he will be alive and tormented forever.

It depends on how you define "alive"

I haven't got much time to go in depth into scripture so I'll assume that you are quite conversant with it and just go ahead and shoot.

...As I said, it depends on how you define "alive". compare how in Genesis, God told Adam that the day he ate the fruit he would die, also consider how Jesus refers to sinners as dead i.e. "let the dead bury the dead". Next, consider that the state of being in the lake of fire is called the second death.

So what does the bible mean when it talks about death?

I'll suggest to you that death means separation. Physical death being the separation of the body and soul while spiritual death being separation from God. The second death is simply eternal separation from God, thrown out of the city of God into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Another thing I will implore you to do is to prayerfully read Ezekiel chapter 26, 27, and 28. and equally read Revelations chapters 19, 20, and 21. These should help you put those verses in context.

Cheers

frosbel:

My brother, these guys will never get it or maybe they will one day.

They are creating more atheists than the devil daily by preaching these falsehoods and refusing to unlearn their dogmatic tradition and learn the simple truths of scripture.

tell me more! The Revelation of Jesus is falsehood, while your malunderstanding of Ezekiel is truth and light. fill up the measure of your fathers.

Image123:
tell me more! The Revelation of Jesus is falsehood, while your malunderstanding of Ezekiel is truth and light. fill up the measure of your fathers.

what are you babbling about ?

Mr_Anony:
It depends on how you define "alive"

I haven't got much time to go in depth into scripture so I'll assume that you are quite conversant with it and just go ahead and shoot.

...As I said, it depends on how you define "alive". compare how in Genesis, God told Adam that the day he ate the fruit he would die, also consider how Jesus refers to sinners as dead i.e. "let the dead bury the dead". Next, consider that the state of being in the lake of fire is called the second death.

So what does the bible mean when it talks about death?

I'll suggest to you that death means separation. Physical death being the separation of the body and soul while spiritual death being separation from God. The second death is simply eternal separation from God, thrown out of the city of God into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Another thing I will implore you to do is to prayerfully read Ezekiel chapter 26, 27, and 28. and equally read Revelations chapters 19, 20, and 21. These should help you put those verses in context.

Cheers

And you have read it a million times that that ""DEATH"" wethe® spiritÙal or physical will die too.....

I don't know how you choose to dodge this glaring truth......

The bible says Yahweh will use Jesus to kill death itself....

the second death isn't just eternÀl seperatiÓn,it is also total destrÙction and complete obliteration......the same thing t
hat happened adam....adam died in everyway....

From your reasoning we can say death will still exist even after Jesus has destroyed it......

I will repeat the same words I sÀid when this discussion started.....

""Eternal life"" is a Gift and not a purnishment....


Satan cannot gain immortality or eternal life....

Boomark:

Do you know that Eze 28:17-19 and Rev 20:10 are contradictory?

lol. Lord! but this is pure gold. Did you just declare a belief that Scriptures are contradictory? You didn't have to prove me right, you know.

Ubenedictus: pls dont do this, throwing scriptures around never helps a discussion at d end sum1 is accusing d oda of heresy and vice versa, pls keep d scripture flowing dnt throw them abt.

Excuse me, but I don't think this is correct in response to Mr Anony. In the discussion, you must communicate and sometimes it is necessary to mirror your discussant's discussing behavior to show what's wrong with it. And in this context, my twin did the exact right thing for effective communication. You will find that Paul and Jesus used this skill too.

Ihedinobi:

lol. Lord! but this is pure gold. Did you just declare a belief that Scriptures are contradictory? You didn't have to prove me right, you know.

You should know me better. That gold can burn your hand if you touch it. So don't touch!

Ihedinobi:

Excuse me, but I don't think this is correct in response to Mr Anony. In the discussion, you must communicate and sometimes it is necessary to mirror your discussant's discussing behavior to show what's wrong with it. And in this context, my twin did the exact right thing for effective communication. You will find that Paul and Jesus used this skill too.

i totally understand u and i blive bro anony totally understands me. I have been on this forums for a short time but i have learnt wen people esp frosbel(no offence) becomes interested in throwing scriptures they do so that they may comfortably acuse d other of heresy and to make a scene for d onlookers. The other party is made to look like a fool wu doesnt know his onions, d moment you start throwing back ur own scripture d discussion breaks down and everybody goes his own way. The person wu made d most convicing case is thought to be stupid d person with the greatest number of followers win.
If u think i'm lying go through the past threads on nairaland, at present i'm trying to distance myself from such and simply stand as a spectator.

Mr_Anony:
It depends on how you define "alive"

I haven't got much time to go in depth into scripture so I'll assume that you are quite conversant with it and just go ahead and shoot.

...As I said, it depends on how you define "alive". compare how in Genesis, God told Adam that the day he ate the fruit he would die, also consider how Jesus refers to sinners as dead i.e. "let the dead bury the dead". Next, consider that the state of being in the lake of fire is called the second death.

So what does the bible mean when it talks about death?

I'll suggest to you that death means separation. Physical death being the separation of the body and soul while spiritual death being separation from God. The second death is simply eternal separation from God, thrown out of the city of God into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Another thing I will implore you to do is to prayerfully read Ezekiel chapter 26, 27, and 28. and equally read Revelations chapters 19, 20, and 21. These should help you put those verses in context.

Cheers

I don't know how else "alive" will mean being alive and gnashing teeth.

Death is death and opposite of being alive. If one dies in the physical, he cease to exist physically. The meaning of the word "death" will not change when it comes to the spiritual context. God said satan will be burnt to ashes and will be no more forever(cease to exist forever).

The same proclamation was made about the city of Tyre in Eze 26:21

New International Version
(©1984)
I will bring you to a
horrible end and you will
be no more. You will be
sought, but you will never
again be found, declares
the Sovereign LORD."

The city of tyre no longer exist. Which mean that God was specific when He said satan will be no more forever.

As you can see there is no other meaning to Eze 28:18-19. So whatever you have to say about Rev 20:10(lake of fire=second death) must be in tandem with what is written in Ezekiel, else they will become contradictory.

Ubenedictus: i totally understand u and i blive bro anony totally understands me. I have been on this forums for a short time but i have learnt wen people esp frosbel(no offence) becomes interested in throwing scriptures they do so that they may comfortably acuse d other of heresy and to make a scene for d onlookers. The other party is made to look like a fool wu doesnt know his onions, d moment you start throwing back ur own scripture d discussion breaks down and everybody goes his own way. The person wu made d most convicing case is thought to be stupid d person with the greatest number of followers win.
If u think i'm lying go through the past threads on nairaland, at present i'm trying to distance myself from such and simply stand as a spectator.

I get you, bro. I also don't care to engage frosbel and his crew. However, this is not about winning/losing. It's totally about Truth. It matters nothing how many embrace Him, what matters is that He is unveiled.

And when He can be unveiled by reflecting a person's foolishness, we who carry Him should do so.