From my study of the bible, i have come to understand that it was not in God's plan that human go through all the trouble we are all going through Today,

the reason for this is due to the sin of our forefather Adam, and Ofcouse, God had warned him that if he should disobey his instruction that he will die(cease to exist)
GENESIS 2:17.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

So, when Adam did actually disobeyed with the help of satan, God had to abandon him Since God and satan cannot shear, with that separation from the source of life, Adam went back to the dust the place he was taken from at the first place, from dust to dust, GENESIS 3:19.

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Genesis 3:19).

Befor Adam was created from the dust was he existing some where else?

No, since that will mean that he was not in actuality created by God and his existance in the garden of eden was not the origin of man/him.

The problem that God came back to fixe when he told Abraham "that by means of your seed all the nation of the earth will certainly bless themself was the problem that he new that Adam will have if he disobeyed, GENESIS 2:17 = death.

So, the wages of sin is death, as was in the case of Adam GENESIS 3:19, from dust to dust.

In like manner, today, the scenario facing man is to stick to God and keep his commandment and have everlasting life or do otherwise like Adam and cease to exist/lost out on everlasting life like Adam did.

The bible consistently says, "the wages of sin is death and the gift that God gives is everlasting life through Jesus christ our lord.
Romans 6:23

It will be an irony if this was false and not true, that both sinners and righteous will both have everlasting life.

At the bible book of Roman 6:7, we are told that he that had died is free from sin"

so, on what basis will the resurrected once that have died and are freed from sin be tormented?

bearing in mind that they have already died and have been acquitted from sin they committed while alive and Ofcouse the wages of sin is death?


If i should steal a car and sent to prison, on serving the prison term will i still pay for the car i had stolen?

Eternal torment is an irony of justice and is not a bible based teaching.
Peace

WHAT TIME DOES THIS DEBATE START ?

obadiah777: WHAT TIME DOES THIS DEBATE START ?

It just started bro....

Get your double edged sword ready......:-)

ijawkid:

It just started bro....

Get your double edged sword ready......:-)

BUAHAHAHAHA YOU DONT SAY BRAH ? I DONT SEE ANYONE HERE THOUGH

obadiah777: BUAHAHAHAHA YOU DONT SAY BRAH ? I DONT SEE ANYONE HERE THOUGH

Lol....truthislife just dropped some punch lines........it has started already...:-).....

ijawkid:

Lol....truthislife just dropped some punch lines........it has started already...:-).....

WELL DAYUM *SHARPENING MY SWORD*

ijawkid:

Lol....truthislife just dropped some punch lines........it has started already...:-).....

Yeah guys, it has started. (I have just got back from church and I'm still writing up my introduction)

Please before you start contesting anyone else's points, please be sure that you have posted a an introduction detailing your stance. I'll post mine soon. God's love be with us all.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE PANEL, HEATHENS AND JEWS, PLEBEIANS AND THE HIGHBROW, I SALUTE. WE ARE GATHERED TODAY TO BREAK BREAD FOR THE PURPOSE OF EDIFICATION AND GROWTH. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE LIVING IN A MONUMENTAL PERIOD OF BIBLICAL HISTORY. THE PROPHETS OF YORE WERE NEVER PRIVY TO THE FULL PICTURE OF THE LORDS PLAN AS WE ARE TODAY. THEY WROTE THEIR RESPECTIVE BOOKS IN A VACUUM WITHOUT GETTING TO SEE IT COMPILED WITH THAT OF THE REST OF THE PROPHETS SO AS TO BUILD A FULL PICTURE OF WHAT THE LORD IS DOING. PROPHETS LIKE DANIEL AND HABBAKUK AND EZRA WITH THEIR INQUISITIVE MINDS KEPT PROBING AND PROBING FOR THE FULL PICTURE FROM THE LORD BUT WERE NOT EDIFIED BECAUSE THE FULL PICTURE WAS NOT REVEALED TO THEM. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN WE ARE IN A FORTUNATE PERIOD IN BIBLICAL HISTORY WHERE WE ARE ABLE TO PUT TOGETHER THE PIECES INTO THE FULL PICTURE PRECEPT BY PRECEPT. SO THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO HOLD STEADFASTLY ONTO ARCHAIC PASSED DOWN DOCTRINES OF DEVILS. WE HAVE TO BE HUMBLE ENOUGH TO SHED THAT WHICH IS FALSE AND CLEAVE ONTO THAT WHICH IS THE TRUTH. SCRIPTURE SAYS THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE. MANY OF US ARE STILL IN BONDAGE OF LIES AND SHACKLED DOWN BY DOCTRINE OF DEVILS.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, WE ARE GATHERED HERE TODAY TO BREAK BREAD ON THE ISSUES OF HELL. I BELIEVE WE CANT TALK ABOUT HELL WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN SO I WOULD LIKE TO COMPREHENSIVELY TALK ABOUT THE ARCHAIC CONCEPT OF HEAVEN AND HELL WITH TWO VERSES. I WOULD LIKE FOR THE HONORABLE GENTLEMEN AND WOMEN OF THE PANEL TO BE OPEN MINDED WHEN I BRING OUT THESE TWO VERSES AND I HOPE THIS WILL QUICKEN THEIR SPIRITS.

WILL GOD SEND HIS SON JESUS TO HELL ? WILL GOD SEND JESUS TO BURN IN AN ETERNAL FIRE FILLED WITH SULFUR AND BRIMSTONE ? PONDER ON THAT QUESTION WHILE YOU EXAMINE THIS VERSE > ACTS 2 VS 31 'He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption' SO THAT VERSE TELLS US THAT THE LORD DID NOT LEAVE CHRIST IN HELL BUT RESSURECTED HIM BEFORE HE DECAYED AND ROTTED IN HELL. SO LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I ASK. IS HELL WHAT WE REALLY THINK IT IS ? OR IS IT JUST THE 'GRAVE', OR AS WE FONDLY REFER TO IT IN NIGERIA, 'BURIAL GROUND'

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, AS FONDLY PONTIFICATED ON IN NIGERIA IS THIS PLACE OF SANCTITY WITH NO VIOLENCE. IT IS A UTOPIA. A PEACEFUL PLACE WITH NO SIN WHATSOEVER. IT IS A PLACE FOR ANGELIC BEINGS. WE WILL EXIST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITHOUT HUMAN BODYS BUT WE WILL BE SPIRITUALLY ENDOWED AND WILL FLOAT AROUND IN UTTER BLISS. PONDER ON THAT WHILE WE EXAMINE THIS VERSE > MATTHEW 11 VS 12 'And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force' NOW IT SAYS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAS SUFFERED IMMENSE VIOLENCE SINCE THE TIME OF JOHN THE BAPTIST UNTIL NOW, SO I ASK YOU ? IS HEAVEN REALLY AN UTOPIA OF BLISS ? IS IT A DESTINATION AS OPPOSED TO A GROUP OF SEALED PEOPLE ? IS IT A GOVERNMENT BODY OF INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE UNDER TRIBULATION NOW, HENCE BEING REFINED IN THE FIRE OF AFFLICTION IN THIS WORLD TO GET THEM PREPARED FOR THE NEXT WORLD ? IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN REALLY A PLACE AS OPPOSED TO A PEOPLE ?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE PANEL. I REST MY CASE.

Unlike the death of all (wo)man today that have the prospect of a resurrection to life John 5:28,29

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. " (John 5:28-29).

"ALL those in the grave will hear his voice and come out" = ALL

^^^

that prospect is the difference between us and those that will be resurrected and that will have to die again (second death)

in the instance of the second death there is no hope of a resurection and as such it is signified with the symbolism of the word "fire" Revelation 20:14,15.
This people that under go second death will also be kill by God and not on the basis of Adamic sin.

Those that God has personally deem deserving of death and had to be killed by God has no more hope of living cause there own case is closed and final, such people even in the bible there that were killed by God without hope of a resurrection are also symbolised with fire, showing that there case is closed and their death is eternal death.

So again are those that will be destroyed at the end of this system of things, there destruction being by God means that they have no more hope of a resurrection and is symbolised by fire. 2peter 3:10.

So, in the bible, fire is consistently being used to symbolised everlasting death.

Lack of this knowledge is the reason for not getting the sense of what "fire" means in the bible and not taking one scripture out of "context" of the "whole bible" .


Be in fear of him that can kill both body and soul in Gehena(fire = everlasting death)

(meaning , be in fear of him that can kill human without the hope of a resurrection)

obadiah777: WHAT TIME DOES THIS DEBATE START ?

is there not a difference in a debate and a discussion?
BTW, all these rules, i. need to look for grace to keep am first. imagine even that artiste cyrex say nothing do kjv, na oversabi frosb go dey whine like devil. make mi go look for some gracias, sorry, Grace.

obadiah777: WHAT TIME DOES THIS DEBATE START ?

2013 same time

truthislight: From my study of the bible, i have come to understand that it was not in God's plan that human go through all the trouble we are all going through Today,


Eternal torment is an irony of justice and is not a bible based teaching.
Peace

I support your position !

Image123:
is there not a difference in a debate and a discussion?
BTW, all these rules, i. need to look for grace to keep am first. imagine even that artiste cyrex say nothing do kjv, na oversabi frosb go dey whine like devil. make mi go look for some gracias, sorry, Grace.

DEBATE, DISCUSSION, HOWEVER FORMAT YOU WANT TO SWING WITH ? DONT MATTER SO LONG AS YOU MAKE YOUR POINTS LEGIBLE.

frosbel:

2013 same time

LOL FUNNY

frosbel:

I support your position !

SO YOU ARE SAYING, IN CONJUNCTION WITH TRUTHISLIGHT, THAT GOD WHO WRITES THE END FROM THE BEGINNING WAS IN A SITUATION THAT WHAT HE PLANNED DID NOT HAPPEN ? LIKE HIS PLAN WENT AWRY ON HIM ?
TRUTHISLIGHT I THINK YOU OFTEN MISTAKE SYMBOLISM FOR REALITY. THE DEATH YOU ARE REFERING TO IS NOT PHYSICAL DEATH. IT IS SPIRITUAL DEATH. PHYSICAL DEATH IN ITSELF IS NOT A PUNISHMENT. IT IS JUST A TRANSFORMATION. SPIRITUAL DEATH HOWEVER IS SERIOUS PUNISHMENT BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD, THEN SATAN HAS POWER OVER YOU ( HEBREWS 2 VS 14 ). WHEN SATAN HAS POWER OVER YOU IS HOW YOU GET TO REALLY PAY FOR YOUR SINS CUZ SATAN WILL KICK YOUR AZZ. YOU CANT PAY FOR YOUR PUNISHMENT WHEN YOU ARE DEAD PHYSICALLY. THE JUDGEMENT PLACE IS ON EARTH AND YOU HAVE TO BE ALIVE TO BE ON EARTH

ECCLESIASTES 3 VS 16 And I saw something else under the sun: In the place of judgment THE PLACE OF JUDGEMENT UNDER THE SUN IS THE EARTH. YOU HAVE TO BE ALIVE TO GET PUNISHMENT. SPIRITUALLY DEAD BUT PHYSICALLY ALIVE

Before I proceed, I would like to point out that of the two versions prescribed, I have access to none. But, that wont be a problem, only that I will refrain from quoting directly from my bible version, I will just text out the verse. Am typing from my phone.
^^^^
First of all, I must admit that my knowledge of the almighty God is not absolute, neither is it malignant, rather, balanced and incorruptibly structured by the inspired word of God, the bible.
The person of God is an independent reality,incorporeal, infinitely perfect and eternally true.
His holiness has no bound, so his mercy. Despite the holiness, He still interacts with 'us', an unholy people. The reason He sent us his word that we may be renewed and have life more abundantly.
The truth is, we can never fully understand how He reigns in holiness. A look at Isaiah 6:1-4, can paint a closer picture of what am talking about.
He transcends the literal definition of the word. Aside from being the most-holy, He is also most-merciful and most-gracious.
Though merciful and gracious, He will not condone sin in his kingdom. In romans 6:14, it was clearly illustrated that we are not to be slaves of sin, but righteousness. And as the effect of sin, in verse 23, the punishment was laid out. Death! Not the physical death to our mortal bodies, but an extermination of the soul to an abode of torment. I subscribe to the relegating of unsound souls to hell.
Some may say if He cant totally forgive, God is not gracious. Or that a gracious God cannot go such length. I beg to disagree. The scripture made us to know that our God is a just Judge. I think if God is to remain just, He must be able to seperate good and evil, which He can.
And when their is the seperation of the divides, their must also be a distinctiveness in the various rewards, which must also stem from the nature of the basis on which they were seperated initially.
Finally, we must also know that for everything the bible say, the essence can never be in the opposite of what it trully is.
My reference: mattew 7:13, 10:28, 24:50-51, 25:41, Acts 2:9, 2 thessolonians 1:9, Rev 10:15

My position is :

Sin is a blight on God's creation and quite horrific in all it's implications.

Before SIN there was bliss, no pain , no death , no tears , no wickedness.

With SIN came all the aforementioned.

God's heart was grieved and he had to do something to restore order while saving this new creature MAN from extinction.

If God had left MAN to stay in the garden and eat from the tree of life , MAN would have lived forever in a sinful state , perpetual misery and always under the wrath of GOD.

So God sentenced MAN to death and creation to corruption with the intent of saving MAN from a catastrophic end.

Romans 8: "20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God" - RSV

God prophesied the salvation of Mankind through his WORD from the seed of a WOMAN.

Between that time and now , God has always punished SIN , for example the flood that destroyed the people of the old world, fire that wiped out Sodom , judgement with pestilence, disease, wars and death.

In all this , it has grieved the heart of GOD that MAN chooses sin over life and so God keeps wooing mankind to him with LOVE to avoid the ultimate punishment which is death.

Ezekiel 18 : 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." - RSV

God's final plan through his SON is to cast all sinners both dead and alive into the lake of fire , to purify the planet from wickedness and inflict appropriate punishment on the wicked with the ultimate destruction of their souls.

The Wrath of GOD is the destruction of all the wicked with fire with the consequence of eternal death , which means exactly what is depicts , death or a cessation of existence.

Death is the enemy of MAN, this is the ultimate wrath of GOD against SIN, MAN's worst enemy as plainly implied in the word of GOD is not eternal torment, something which is totally unscriptural but DEATH.

This last enemy DEATH is so evil that it shall also have to be destroyed .

1 Corinthians 15 :54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 Corinthians 15 : 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death

Revelation 20 : 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

My stand::::::::

It is either one is rewarded with everlasting life or one is thrown into the lake of fire(second death).........death without the hope of ressurection.....total and complete destruction........a replica of what sodom and gomorah experienced but in a symbolic sense..........

It is either everlasting life or death(eternal destruction),john 3:16

.........

Now that is my stand....I aint got much to write,but if need be then I'm here....

1. Death is the opposite of life. It is a state of non-existent or inactivity. When I was not created, I did not exist. When I die I will exist no more.

God said to man: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” -Genesis 2:17 (NKJV) "...For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”-Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. -Genesis 3:4 (NKJV)

In view of the above, it is either God or Satan is a liar. Well, Eve was quick to realize Satan is a liar.
"...The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” -Genesis 3:13 (NKJV)

This seed of untruth about man continuous existence after sin and death was sown far back in the garden of Eden, it is almost as old as man. Since Satan is crafty and unrelenting he has re-packaged and re-presented same. Today we have this untruth in forms such as immortality of the soul of man, reincarnation of man, eternal torment of man in a fiery hell etc.

Considering the foregoing, on whose side are you? God's or Satan's?

2. Hell simply means grave. The Hebrew word for it is Sheol, the Greek word for it is Hades. It is not a literal place for torment. It is a place of inactivity. For example, Jesus was raised from the grave or Sheol or Hades or Hell. Compare the following quotations from the King James Versions:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell ; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Psalms 16:10 (KJV)

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell , neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Acts 2:27 (KJV)

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Psalms 16:10 (NKJV)

"For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Acts 2:27 (NKJV)

Conclussion: Hell = Sheol = Hades = Grave.

3. Fire is a symbol of annihilation. The lake of fire and sulphur is not a literal place of torment, but a symbol of everlasting death - the second death. Destruction by God is everlasting - no hope of recovery or resurrection. It's like incinerating an object.

Whenever the expression "everlasting/eternal torment, punishment, suffering etc is used, it's often symbolic, not literal. Consider the following:

"as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". -Jude 1:7 (NKJV)

Geographically and literally speaking, today the biblical cities of Sodom and Comorrah are believed to have been in the vicinity of southeastern Isreal, near the south end of the dead sea. They are industral sites.

If we take Jude's description of the destruction of the aforementioned cities literally, then either Jude lied or the incident never happened. The truth is, their death was final. Destruction of the wicked by God is often described symbolically as by fire. It's difference from destruction by others.

4. Will there be any retribution for unrepentant sinners? Yes!
Whatever means God will use, the wicked will be killed. I mean death, in the true sense of the word.
It will be total annihilation. They will exist no more.

"For evildoers shall be cut off;But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more. -Psalms 37:9-10 (NKJV)

5. Is there any hope for the dead? Yes, the hope of resurrection! God made man from dust and from dust faithful ones who died will be resurrected at His appointed time.

frosbel:

And this is the kind of juvenile we are to engage with in debates about the word of GOD.

I pity your soul that is going lost. I ve said it that you are like a fallen angel. Run for your dear life before you find yourself in hell because of your false teachings. Stop deceiving people.

alexleo:


I pity your soul that is going lost. I ve said it that you are like a fallen angel. Run for your dear life before you find yourself in hell because of your false teachings. Stop deceiving people.

And what is TRUE teaching Mr. Pharisee !

Children of Yahweh, pls show some maturity now. Some of us are here to learn. Dont give us a wrong impression about you.

May the Spirit of Yahweh take control of this discussion/debate in Yeshua's name I pray. Amen.

Freksy: 1. Death is the opposite of life. It is a state of non-existent or inactivity. When I was not created, I did not exist. When I die I will exist no more.

God said to man: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” -Genesis 2:17 (NKJV) "...For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”-Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. -Genesis 3:4 (NKJV)

In view of the above, it is either God or Satan is a liar. Well, Eve was quick to realize Satan is a liar.
"...The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” -Genesis 3:13 (NKJV)

This seed of untruth about man continuous existence after sin and death was sown far back in the garden of Eden, it is almost as old as man. Since Satan is crafty and unrelenting he has re-packaged and re-presented same. Today we have this untruth in forms such as immortality of the soul of man, reincarnation of man, eternal torment of man in a fiery hell etc.

Considering the foregoing, on whose side are you? God's or Satan's?

2. Hell simply means grave. The Hebrew word for it is Sheol, the Greek word for it is Hades. It is not a literal place for torment. It is a place of inactivity. For example, Jesus was raised from the grave or Sheol or Hades or Hell. Compare the following quotations from the King James Versions:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell ; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Psalms 16:10 (KJV)

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell , neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Acts 2:27 (KJV)

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Psalms 16:10 (NKJV)

"For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Acts 2:27 (NKJV)

Conclussion: Hell = Sheol = Hades = Grave.

3. Fire is a symbol of annihilation. The lake of fire and sulphur is not a literal place of torment, but a symbol of everlasting death - the second death. Destruction by God is everlasting - no hope of recovery or resurrection. It's like incinerating an object.

Whenever the expression "everlasting/eternal torment, punishment, suffering etc is used, it's often symbolic, not literal. Consider the following:

"as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". -Jude 1:7 (NKJV)

Geographically and literally speaking, today the biblical cities of Sodom and Comorrah are believed to have been in the vicinity of southeastern Isreal, near the south end of the dead sea. They are industral sites.

If we take Jude's description of the destruction of the aforementioned cities literally, then either Jude lied or the incident never happened. The truth is, their death was final. Destruction of the wicked by God is often described symbolically as by fire. It's difference from destruction by others.

4. Will there be any retribution for unrepentant sinners? Yes!
Whatever means God will use, the wicked will be killed. I mean death, in the true sense of the word.
It will be total annihilation. They will exist no more.

"For evildoers shall be cut off;But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more. -Psalms 37:9-10 (NKJV)

5. Is there any hope for the dead? Yes, the hope of resurrection! God made man from dust and from dust faithful ones who died will be resurrected at His appointed time.

Perfect!!!!!!!......

It all starts with God. God is the greatest being, He created the world and owns it. It is not an issue up for debate. He is the absolute boss and has the right to treat the world however He deems fit.

God really needs no introduction to us. The attribute I want to focus on here is His holiness. Our God is a God of Love but He is also a consuming fire and will never tolerate sin. God punishes sin with extreme severity. God put to death entire communities; men, women, children and even livestock because of sin. God has also allowed the deaths of people just to make a point (see the case of Job's children). To put it plain and simple: The universe is entirely God's property.

While we are talking about sin, I would like us all to note that sin is simply breaking God's law and not necessarily doing what you may consider "bad things" if God says jump and you don't , for you it is sin. It is irrelevant whether you think that "there is nothing wrong with not jumping".

The point is that it is not you and I who get to say what is evil and what amount of punishment is appropriate. It is entirely at God's discretion. God alone decides what is sin and the severity of punishment (consider the story of Uzzah who stretched out his hand to support the ark and God killed him also consider what might seem a mismatch between the crime of Saul and that of David)

The difference here you might note is God's mercy and repentance but then what will you say about Uzzah or Ananias and Sapphira who were not even given the opportunity to repent?

Does this make God unfair? Certainly not. He is the Potter and we are the clay. He will show mercy on whomever He wishes (Rom 9:13-21). God's mercy is beyond all limits but His mercy is totally and absolutely subject to Him.

The reason I have taken the time to go through the above preamble is so that we can happily discard the emotional argument of "How can a merciful God do [insert terrible action] to His creation?
The answer is: Yes He can. God's nature is far too holy to tolerate sin (Hab 1:13). Sin cannot co-exist with God (much like fire can't co-exist with a piece of paper. It will be burnt) God even killed His beloved chosen people (Israelites) when they sinned.

Now that we have looked at God's nature, let us now look at redemption and the purpose of sacrifices and covenants.
God by nature is far too holy to tolerate sin, He must punish it. But then again, God is also extremely merciful and His mercy endures forever. Can you see where this is heading?

God's nature here appears to be self-conflicting: On one hand, He must punish sin and on the other hand, he must forgive sin. This is where sacrifice comes in. Here the punishment due to a man is transferred to an animal. In the same way, Christ was sacrificed on our behalf bearing the punishment for our sin upon Himself.

Now this means that anyone who does not accept the sacrifice of Christ will be doomed and condemned to face the fullness of God's wrath.

This brings us to the case of eternal punishment.

The bible makes it quite clear that there is a different reward for the righteous and for the wicked after death.

Consider the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31).
One may argue that the story is figurative but two things are quite certain from this parable.
1. The righteous are in conscious enjoyment in the afterlife
2. The wicked are in conscious suffering in the afterlife.
For now let us assume that we don't know how long the torment or enjoyment will last because we are not told in the parable

A few more of Jesus' parables mention an outer darkness where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 22:1-14, 25:14-30). These also point to conscious suffering on one end and enjoyment on the other.

Now, making progress and moving on from the parables, What else do we know about the afterlife?
We know for sure that the saints will have everlasting life (John 3:16)

Our contention today is: What will happen to sinners after they die?

A simple way to look at it is this:

First let us look at the context of what hell was to a New testament Hebrew

Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luk_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luk_16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

James_3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

In the verses listed we can begin to see that for an ancient Hebrew, hell was a place of fire and darkness and terrors below the earth where the wicked are punished after death.
I want to put it to you, that when Jesus talked about hell fire, the Jews knew what He meant. They likely pictured sinners burning in fire.

One may argue that these references to hell are the same as Hades that is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelations 20:13-14.

If this is true, what it would mean is that sinners are first tormented in Hades, then resurrected to face judgement after which Hades is thrown into the lake of fire and the sinners are thrown into the same…..and both are annihilated.

I don't accept this because the bible makes it clear that after death is judgment (Heb 9:27). I do not see anything about an afterlife punishment before judgment anywhere in my bible . For this reason, I believe Hades and death used here are a personification of the spirit of death and the grave.

Now, Revelations 19 and 20 shows us something interesting which is the devil and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented forever, all those whose names are not found in the book of life are also thrown into the same lake of fire.

I see no reason other than special pleading why the wicked won't be tormented forever after being thrown into the same lake of fire (Also see Matt 25:41)


Now I think I have made my point so I'll acknowledge a few things here which are that:
I can understand when someone argues that the second death means annihilation and that perishing strictly means ceasing to exist but then this doesn't follow or else Jesus wouldn't have gone through the trouble of telling us about the sinner in torment.

The truth however is that the bible tells us that it is the state of being in the lake of fire that is the second death and not a result of the burning. (Rev 21:8 )

I also appreciate that the bible uses a number of metaphors for hell such as "everlasting fire" and "outer darkness". Perhaps Hell may or may not be a literal fire burning just like Heaven may or may not be a place with literal streets of gold .

One thing however is sure. Hell is a place where the fullness of God's wrath on those who have sinned against Him. Those who die in sin will be resurrected to eternal contempt (Dan 12:1). The torment will be forever. It is not a place anyone wants to be. There will be no more sacrifice for sin. It will be terrible.
Heaven is the exact opposite

I'll leave you with this verse:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mattew 25:46


The Good News………….Christ has paid for us. He has purchased for us with His blood; a place in the book of Life.
All glory to His Name forever and ever Amen


Translation used: KJV

alexleo:


I pity your soul that is going lost. I ve said it that you are like a fallen angel. Run for your dear life before you find yourself in hell because of your false teachings. Stop deceiving people.

Ehm...alexleo please let's be civil here. Present us with an introductory summary of your position and then join in the discussion. Flinging insults at each other is not one of the fruit of the Spirit my brother. Insults are totally uncalled for here please. (frosbel you too) Are we not tired of the same old routine of name-calling yet?

@Mr Anony

What is a parable? If you claim what Jesus said at Luke 16:19-31 and other related scriptures should be taken literally, then answer the following:

1. Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on between Abraham and Lazarus?

2. If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

3. Have you literally plucked out or cut off any part of your body that can possibly prevent you from entering into the kingdom of God? Who has ever done it, can you tell us?..........Matt. 5:29-30

Freksy: @Mr Anony

What is a parable? If you claim what Jesus said at Luke 16:19-31 and other related scriptures should be taken literally, then answer the following:

1. Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on between Abraham and Lazarus?

2. If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

3. Have you literally plucked out or cut off any part of your body that can possibly prevent you from entering into the kingdom of God? Who has ever done it, can you tell us?..........Matt. 5:29-30

http://www.informationnigeria.org/2012/09/bizarre-27-year-old-man-cuts-off-his-own-hands-to-prevent-him-from-stealing.html

obadiah777: http://www.informationnigeria.org/2012/09/bizarre-27-year-old-man-cuts-off-his-own-hands-to-prevent-him-from-stealing.html

That man na mumu man wey cut him hand......lol....

If Jesus' words were meant to be applied literally then we will all be amputees ......

Buzugee I'm sure you would have cut off your whole mouth to avoid shekpe and some alcohol....lol....

@Anony
1. Your use of the word hell is very much out of context from the meaning of hell as grave, its like you take for granted that hell as us in the bible = fire.
But Jesus went to same Hell

Was Jesus burnt in fire since you said that hell is under the ground and he was buried as we know.

2. The bible said that "fire" means second death Rev. 20:14,
can you explain what and how the bible defines death? ecclesiates 9:5,6,10.

3. Can you reconcile from the bible the sort of body that will be put into this fire?

4. Is the fire literal fire?

5. At what points in time do they start this "burning in fire" ? Imediately after death or subsequently in the future?

6. Can you explain what you understan by what Romans 6:7 says? (he that has died is free/acquitted from his sin)
since the dead will still be punish after resurrection for there past sins?

pls note, if you should contradict the bible it then means that there is an error in your teaching since it CANT be God's word that is in the wrong.

More question after you answer this questions

ijawkid:

That man na mumu man wey cut him hand......lol....

If Jesus' words were meant to be applied literally then we will all be amputees ......

Buzugee I'm sure you would have cut off your whole mouth to avoid shekpe and some alcohol....lol....

My bros, no be small thing...o

You see what harm this falsehood can cause.

I am sure Mr Anony and his fellow Hellers have seen this.

ijawkid:

That man na mumu man wey cut him hand......lol....

If Jesus' words were meant to be applied literally then we will all be amputees ......

Buzugee I'm sure you would have cut off your whole mouth to avoid shekpe and some alcohol....lol....

i think i will risk hell than cut my mouth and stop drinking the almighty delicious shekpe VERYY FUNNY

what happened to this thread ? thought it would be packed and exciting. the thread dead

obadiah777: http://www.informationnigeria.org/2012/09/bizarre-27-year-old-man-cuts-off-his-own-hands-to-prevent-him-from-stealing.html

Thank you Obadiah for showing us how dangerous and harmful it can be if Jesus' words at Matt. 5:29-30 are taken literally.

Mr Anony, please who is responsible for the young man's amputation?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]It all starts with God. God is the greatest being, He created the world and owns it. It is not an issue up for debate. He is the absolute boss and has the right to treat the world however He deems fit.

Not under contention.

It is also useful to note that though God has the right to treat the world however he deems fit, it will always be in alignment with his attributes such as mercy , love, justice, patience , gentleness, humility etc.

God really needs no introduction to us. The attribute I want to focus on here is His holiness. Our God is a God of Love but He is also a consuming fire and will never tolerate sin. God punishes sin with extreme severity. God put to death entire communities; men, women, children and even livestock because of sin. God has also allowed the deaths of people just to make a point (see the case of Job's children). To put it plain and simple: The universe is entirely God's property.

God looks at sin from 2 angles , as a judge and as a father.

As a judge because he must judge and sentence the disobedient to some degree of punishment but also as a father because he would rather his offspring repent and turn from their evil ways than be punished.

Further , God's punishment for those who polluted his LAND has always been death.

The point is that it is not you and I who get to say what is evil and what amount of punishment is appropriate. It is entirely at God's discretion.

Everything GOD does and will do is written and revealed clearly in his word.

He is the GOD that changes not, so he will not say one thing in his word and do another.

We all know how bad sin is , and we also by the same word of God know what judgement and punishment awaits sinners.

God alone decides what is sin and the severity of punishment (consider the story of Uzzah who stretched out his hand to support the ark and God killed him also consider what might seem a mismatch between the crime of Saul and that of David)

Uzzah again was punished with death , to you his crime may seem trivial , not so to a just GOD.

Regarding SAUL and DAVID, God judges by the heart and he will always listen to a broken and contrite heart, it is not the magnitude of sin that was in question here, but the humility , repentance and honesty of DAVID. Unlike Saul, David made no excuse for SIN.

The difference here you might note is God's mercy and repentance but then what will you say about Uzzah or Ananias and Sapphira who were not even given the opportunity to repent?

Ananias and his wife lied to GOD , this is s serious SIN.

The reason I have taken the time to go through the above preamble is so that we can happily discard the emotional argument of "How can a merciful God do [insert terrible action] to His creation?
The answer is: Yes He can. God's nature is far too holy to tolerate sin (Hab 1:13). Sin cannot co-exist with God (much like fire can't co-exist with a piece of paper. It will be burnt) God even killed His beloved chosen people (Israelites) when they sinned.

You like to portray God as a being eager to do terrible things to his creation, yet the bible disagrees with you on this note.

"33 for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men. 34 To crush under foot all the prisoners of the earth, 35 to turn aside the right of a man in the presence of the Most High, 36 to subvert a man in his cause, the Lord does not approve." - Lamentations 3 " - RSV

20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done - Genesis 8 - RSV

God's nature here appears to be self-conflicting: On one hand, He must punish sin and on the other hand, he must forgive sin. This is where sacrifice comes in. Here the punishment due to a man is transferred to an animal. In the same way, Christ was sacrificed on our behalf bearing the punishment for our sin upon Himself.

Now this means that anyone who does not accept the sacrifice of Christ will be doomed and condemned to face the fullness of God's wrath.

God's nature is not conflicting.

He will punish sin and vent his fill wrath on the unrepentant wicked , but he has also made a way of escape for us , that we may avoid the consequences of this same wrath.

However , God is not excited about the destruction of the wicked, he would rather they repent.


9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance - 2 Peter 3 " - RSV

Consider the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31).
One may argue that the story is figurative but two things are quite certain from this parable.
1. The righteous are in conscious enjoyment in the afterlife
2. The wicked are in conscious suffering in the afterlife.
For now let us assume that we don't know how long the torment or enjoyment will last because we are not told in the parable

A few more of Jesus' parables mention an outer darkness where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 22:1-14, 25:14-30). These also point to conscious suffering on one end and enjoyment on the other.

1. This was a parable, Jesus had just told another parable in the same chapter prior, so for consistency you must also take the first parable literally
2. If this was literal please do tell us the rich man's name
3. Appears the rich man had physical organs, again this is contradictory because as Jesus implied in a statement , a spirit does not have bodily organs.
"39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have." - Luke 24" - RSV
4. The richman did not have a name , so this cannot be literal
5. The implication of taking this parable literally is that the righteous will watch their relatives in torment just a stone throw away while praising GOD. Does not make sense
6. Death is sleep
7. Man is a mortal and not a spirit, angels are spirits, if a man dies that's it.

Just to conclude, you cannot form a theology on one parable in Luke 16 , a doctrine has to be based on consistent revelation from Genesis to Revelation.

Our contention today is: What will happen to sinners after they die?

A simple way to look at it is this:

First let us look at the context of what hell was to a New testament Hebrew

[i]Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Hell fire here is the Lake of Fire not an existing place called Hell.

Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Again the Lake of fire where the whole person is destroyed.

I want to put it to you, that when Jesus talked about hell fire, the Jews knew what He meant. They likely pictured sinners burning in fire.

One may argue that these references to hell are the same as Hades that is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelations 20:13-14.

If this is true, what it would mean is that sinners are first tormented in Hades, then resurrected to face judgement after which Hades is thrown into the lake of fire and the sinners are thrown into the same…..and both are annihilated.

Wrong.

You are actually potraying human judges as more righteous than God, because they always only punish the criminal after a judgement has been passed , not before.

To suggest that God will punish before judgement is false and not biblical.

..... Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" - Genesis 18:25

I don't accept this because the bible makes it clear that after death is judgment (Heb 9:27). I do not see anything about an afterlife punishment before judgment anywhere in my bible . For this reason, I believe Hades and death used here are a personification of the spirit of death and the grave.

After death is judgement , but there is only ONE judgement not TWO. There is not one judgement after death and another one after the resurrection, this is not in any form or shape supported by scripture.

When a man dies he sleeps till the resurrection either to judgement or to life. This is the judgement and there is not another one before.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment - John 5 " - RSV


All the dead are in the grave waiting for judgement, no spirits are in hell or heaven, man is not a spirit, man is a mortal soul and when the spirit that God gives him leaves he is dead and I mean as dead as a dodo.

King Solomon one of the wisest kings of all time, never for once mentioned that when a man dies his soul goes to hell, his body to the grave and his spirit to heaven , rather he rightly explains that when a man dies his spirit or source of life returns to God while his body returns to the dust.

In fact he goes further to say that in death we are no better than animals.

19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity -Ecclesiastes 3 " - RSV

Now, Revelations 19 and 20 shows us something interesting which is the devil and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented forever, all those whose names are not found in the book of life are also thrown into the same lake of fire.

But death and hades are also thrown into this fire, does it mean that death and hades will also burn and be tormented forever, of course not.

Death will be destroyed and so will the wicked and even Satan in this lake of fire.

Let us consider the end of SATAN as prophesied by Ezeiekl.

15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. 16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. 18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought forth fire from the midst of you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more for ever - Ezekiel 28 " - RSV

Now I think I have made my point so I'll acknowledge a few things here which are that:
I can understand when someone argues that the second death means annihilation and that perishing strictly means ceasing to exist but then this doesn't follow or else Jesus wouldn't have gone through the trouble of telling us about the sinner in torment.

Sinners will be punished with fire before they are destroyed, the ultimate purpose of this fire is the second death and death means death not eternal existence.

It will be laughable to suggest that God grants immortality to the righteous and also to the wicked albeit to spend it in a place of torment.

Not true.

The penalty for sin is death which means no life and in the absence of life their can be no consciousness , to suggest otherwise is to turn logic on it's head.

Only a person with life can be conscious and if a person is conscious because he has life in this context , it means he has also been granted immortality which totally contradicts the word of GOD which says ;

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever - Genesis 3 " - RSV

Scripture is very clear that death is the destiny of all those who refuse to repent from their wickedness, death by definition is the absence of life not the presence of it.

One thing however is sure. Hell is a place where the fullness of God's wrath on those who have sinned against Him. Those who die in sin will be resurrected to eternal contempt (Dan 12:1). The torment will be forever. It is not a place anyone wants to be. There will be no more sacrifice for sin. It will be terrible.
Heaven is the exact opposite

Totally wrong, false , a farce and in direction opposition to scripture and the nature of GOD.

God's anger is but for a moment, an eternal hell which we all know is non-biblical , suggests a GOD who is angry forever, talk about misrepresenting the character of GOD,

5 For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. -Pslam 30 " - RSV

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mattew 25:46

Eternal death is everlasting punishment, it is irreversible, no coming back , the consequences are final