^^

I made some typo corrections , so you may way to re-read my update above, in a sort of hurry.

Freksy: 1. Death is the opposite of life. It is a state of non-existent or inactivity. When I was not created, I did not exist. When I die I will exist no more.

God said to man: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” -Genesis 2:17 (NKJV) "...For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”-Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. -Genesis 3:4 (NKJV)

In view of the above, it is either God or Satan is a liar. Well, Eve was quick to realize Satan is a liar.
"...The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” -Genesis 3:13 (NKJV)

This seed of untruth about man continuous existence after sin and death was sown far back in the garden of Eden, it is almost as old as man. Since Satan is crafty and unrelenting he has re-packaged and re-presented same. Today we have this untruth in forms such as immortality of the soul of man, reincarnation of man, eternal torment of man in a fiery hell etc.

Considering the foregoing, on whose side are you? God's or Satan's?

2. Hell simply means grave. The Hebrew word for it is Sheol, the Greek word for it is Hades. It is not a literal place for torment. It is a place of inactivity. For example, Jesus was raised from the grave or Sheol or Hades or Hell. Compare the following quotations from the King James Versions:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell ; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Psalms 16:10 (KJV)

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell , neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Acts 2:27 (KJV)

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Psalms 16:10 (NKJV)

"For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Acts 2:27 (NKJV)

Conclussion: Hell = Sheol = Hades = Grave.

3. Fire is a symbol of annihilation. The lake of fire and sulphur is not a literal place of torment, but a symbol of everlasting death - the second death. Destruction by God is everlasting - no hope of recovery or resurrection. It's like incinerating an object.

Whenever the expression "everlasting/eternal torment, punishment, suffering etc is used, it's often symbolic, not literal. Consider the following:

"as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". -Jude 1:7 (NKJV)

Geographically and literally speaking, today the biblical cities of Sodom and Comorrah are believed to have been in the vicinity of southeastern Isreal, near the south end of the dead sea. They are industral sites.

If we take Jude's description of the destruction of the aforementioned cities literally, then either Jude lied or the incident never happened. The truth is, their death was final. Destruction of the wicked by God is often described symbolically as by fire. It's difference from destruction by others.

4. Will there be any retribution for unrepentant sinners? Yes!
Whatever means God will use, the wicked will be killed. I mean death, in the true sense of the word.
It will be total annihilation. They will exist no more.

"For evildoers shall be cut off;But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more. -Psalms 37:9-10 (NKJV)

5. Is there any hope for the dead? Yes, the hope of resurrection! God made man from dust and from dust faithful ones who died will be resurrected at His appointed time.

Interestingly Fresky, you omitted a large part of Christ talking about a suffering after judgment. What you are proposing sounds like this: Man sins and dies, God resurrects him and says something along the lines of "you have been a very bad boy haven't you? Now go back to sleep".

Annihilation is not preached in the scripture. It is only something you have assumed. It is special pleading to say that though the bible says that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, that man thrown into the same lake of fire will somehow be exempt from the same punishment but will simply go into another long eternal sleep. This is false.

Just to be sure, so that the above isn't just a conclusion I am jumping to. Do you agree that the wicked will be resurrected for judgment as it says in Rev 20? or do you hold that they will never even rise at all?


The part you cited in the book of Psalms where the wicked will be cut off was referring to a physical death. How do I know? I read the whole Psalm and nothing about that verse seems to indicate an afterlife cutting off.


One more thing Fresky. please stick to KJV or RSV as we have agreed, NKJV is not one of the translations we agreed upon (yeah I know it is very similar to KJV and it is also my favoured translation but then an agreement is an agreement. Let's respect that).

Welldone, guys on either camps, both eternal torturists (hellists) and total annihilists. Its getting interesting now as we have moved from the dulling preliminaries to action-packed stage.

I will just suggest that a common understanding should be reached on the meaning of death, you guys on either camps may be referring to different concepts while thinking you are referring to the same thing. It seems as if the meaning of death is twofold

1. To the annilhilists: death means total cessation of life, no consciousness whatsoever, until it is brought back to life again in ressurection. Death is the exact opposite of life.

2. To the hellists: death means another second life somewhere else with consciousness and awareness. You just change location from this physical world and enter the spirit world with your second life. Death is not the opposite of life but upgrading or downgrading from the body life to the spirit life, in either a good place or bad place as the case may be.

Which view is supported by the bible? Does the bible have its own consensus on this? Or are we to deduce our own conclusions from the scriptures or based on our personal rationalisations like ... Ehm.... Mr Anony... is very skilful with.

We shall see very soon.

Keep it coming guys, Kudos

Freksy: @Mr Anony

What is a parable? If you claim what Jesus said at Luke 16:19-31 and other related scriptures should be taken literally, then answer the following:

1. Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on between Abraham and Lazarus?

2. If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

3. Have you literally plucked out or cut off any part of your body that can possibly prevent you from entering into the kingdom of God? Who has ever done it, can you tell us?..........Matt. 5:29-30

This is the reason why I asked everyone to give their introduction so that it will be easy to go back and see exactly what each person's position is instead of merely generalizing based on what you think the person is saying.

I have not claimed that the parable should be taken literally but I have pointed out that clearly the conscious suffering of a sinner after death is a core point of Jesus' parables.

If you had bothered to read my argument through and through, you would have noticed that I do not necessarily hold that hell is a literal fire. What I do hold is that there is definitely eternal suffering for the sinner after death and Jesus pointed at this in his parables.

Dp

Mr_Anony:
Interestingly Fresky, you omitted a large part of Christ talking about a suffering after judgment. What you are proposing sounds like this: Man sins and dies, God resurrects him and says something along the lines of "you have been a very bad boy haven't you? Now go back to sleep".

Annihilation is not preached in the scripture. It is only something you have assumed. It is special pleading to say that though the bible says that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, that man thrown into the same lake of fire will somehow be exempt from the same punishment but will simply go into another long eternal sleep. This is false.

The part you cited in the book of Psalms where the wicked will be cut off was referring to a physical death. How do I know? I read the whole Psalm and nothing about that verse seems to indicate an afterlife cutting off.


One more thing Fresky. please stick to KJV or RSV as we have agreed, NKJV is not one of the translations we agreed upon (yeah I know it is very similar to KJV and it is also my favoured translation but then an agreement is an agreement. Let's respect that).

please, for this debate to be useful, you have to used scripture to refute scriptures.

You cannot reward yourself eternal life nor can you reward another person, that reward is God's and as such let us allow God's word to stand, so please it is either you have a scripture to refute or you allow what has been said from scripture to stand as a fact.

Mr_Anony:

The part you cited in the book of Psalms where the wicked will be cut off was referring to a physical death. How do I know? I read the whole Psalm and nothing about that verse seems to indicate an afterlife cutting off.

can you use the bible to show that man is still existing after death?

If you cant, then this statement of yours is inconsequential to what the bible and plans are but are a figment of your own imagination and a false doctrine.

Once again, all your statment MUST have a scripture backing and if not, dont pen it down.

Dont rationalise for God.

If it is not bible based it is not God's plans.

Psalm 37:9,10 is in agreement with what Revelation 19:11-18= wicked being cut off, what there described as being the fate of the wicked and will be done personally by Jesus with a sword is what God plans. so you are not qualify to wave it off with words of mouth.
Peace

Mr_Anony:
Interestingly Fresky, you omitted a large part of Christ talking about a suffering after judgment. What you are proposing sounds like this: Man sins and dies, God resurrects him and says something along the lines of "you have been a very bad boy haven't you? Now go back to sleep".

Annihilation is not preached in the scripture. It is only something you have assumed. It is special pleading to say that though the bible says that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, that man thrown into the same lake of fire will somehow be exempt from the same punishment but will simply go into another long eternal sleep. This is false.

The part you cited in the book of Psalms where the wicked will be cut off was referring to a physical death. How do I know? I read the whole Psalm and nothing about that verse seems to indicate an afterlife cutting off.


One more thing Fresky. please stick to KJV or RSV as we have agreed, NKJV is not one of the translations we agreed upon (yeah I know it is very similar to KJV and it is also my favoured translation but then an agreement is an agreement. Let's respect that).

Mr anony my comrade....

Just a little question for you.......

What will actually be tormenting these bad guys (satan,his demons,rulers of the earth,death,hell,unrighteous persons etc) in the lake of fire??

Is it the fire itself or something else??

Because I barely think any fire can literally torment satan who is a spirit!!!!!!!!!.........


And where would this literal lake of fire be located??......

Also if death and hell would literally be tormented along§ide real persons day and night for all eternity then can we as well say that once upon a time there were persons or individuals known as death and ""hell "".......??........

Lastly where is adam and eve the instigators of mankinds dilemma??

ijawkid: My stand::::::::

It is either one is rewarded with everlasting life or one is thrown into the lake of fire(second death).........death without the hope of ressurection.....total and complete destruction........a replica of what sodom and gomorah experienced but in a symbolic sense..........

It is either everlasting life or death(eternal destruction),john 3:16

.........

Now that is my stand....I aint got much to write,but if need be then I'm here....

On this i stand.

Everlasting life is not of 2 types or 2 in 1...the one a person spends either in the kingdom of God or the one to be spent in hell alive while burning forever.

It is either eternal life or eternal destruction.

cyrexx: Welldone, guys on either camps, both eternal torturists (hellists) and total annihilists. Its getting interesting now as we have moved from the dulling preliminaries to action-packed stage.

I will just suggest that a common understanding should be reached on the meaning of death, you guys on either camps may be referring to different concepts while thinking you are referring to the same thing. It seems as if the meaning of death is twofold

1. To the annilhilists: death means total cessation of life, no consciousness whatsoever, until it is brought back to life again in ressurection. Death is the exact opposite of life.

2. To the hellists: death means another second life somewhere else with consciousness and awareness. You just change location from this physical world and enter the spirit world with your second life. Death is not the opposite of life but upgrading or downgrading from the body life to the spirit life, in either a good place or bad place as the case may be.

Which view is supported by the bible? Does the bible have its own consensus on this? Or are we to deduce our own conclusions from the scriptures or based on our personal rationalisations like ... Ehm.... Mr Anony... is very skilful with.

We shall see very soon.

Keep it coming guys, Kudos

the bible clearly says that death is the cessation of life. Ecclesiates 9:5,6,10 and Psalm 146:4.

Anony theory is none biblical and as such is null and void in this debate and search for the truth.

No scripture backing then it cant be the truth.

Mr_Anony:
This is the reason why I asked everyone to give their introduction so that it will be easy to go back and see exactly what each person's position is instead of merely generalizing based on what you think the person is saying.

I have not claimed that the parable should be taken literally but I have pointed out that clearly the conscious suffering of a sinner after death is a core point of Jesus' parables.

If you had bothered to read my argument through and through, you would have noticed that I do not necessarily hold that hell is a literal fire. What I do hold is that there is definitely eternal suffering for the sinner after death and Jesus pointed at this in his parables.

that pareble of the rich man and lazarus is teaching a change of condition between those that follow Jesus in this system of things and those that dont.

That in the new world there will be a turn of event and the followers of christ will be in God's favour and those not following christ will get God displeasure and will under go what fire symbolise = second death/everlasting death.

truthislight: @Anony
1. Your use of the word hell is very much out of context from the meaning of hell as grave, its like you take for granted that hell as us in the bible = fire.
But Jesus went to same Hell

Was Jesus burnt in fire since you said that hell is under the ground and he was buried as we know.

Not really, actually I have been very careful to put it in context as best as I could. hell/hades/sheol are used interchangeably throughout scripture. When I said hell was a fiery place, I made sure that I pointed out that this was likely what a Jew of Jesus' time visualized as hell for punishment of the wicked. Some other parts of the scripture simply render hell as the grave especially in the old testament.

I have never said hell is literal fire buried underground. Please refer back to my post and try to understand exactly what I said.
Did Jesus descend into Hell? Yes he did. Was He burnt in a fire? The bible does not tell us.

2. The bible said that "fire" means second death Rev. 20:14,
can you explain what and how the bible defines death? ecclesiates 9:5,6,10.

Now Rev 20:14 tells us that the casting into the lake of fire is(the definition of) the second death. It does not say that the casting into the lake of fire results in the second death. You can read the same verse again Rev 21:8.
How do I know that they will exist in a state of torment? Because Rev 20:10 makes it clear that the devil will be tormented forever along with the beast and the false prophet. Also note in Rev 19:20 that they are cast into the fire alive. Note again that the wicked have been resurrected to also be cast into the fire alive. Why is it then that the devil, the beast and his false prophet suffer forever while other sinners who share the same inheritance get to go back to sleep. The annihilation message is not written in the bible, It is only an assumption.

3. Can you reconcile from the bible the sort of body that will be put into this fire?

I have every reason to believe that it will be a resurrected body that is alive and capable of being tormented. See Rev 19:20

4. Is the fire literal fire?

As I have said it may or may not be literal fire but the torment is real. refer again to my introductory post.

5. At what points in time do they start this "burning in fire" ? Imediately after death or subsequently in the future?

The bible tells me that after death is judgment. Read Rev 20, the dead will all be resurrected and then judgment will be meted out.

6. Can you explain what you understan by what Romans 6:7 says? (he that has died is free/acquitted from his sin)
since the dead will still be punish after resurrection for there past sins?

You have quoted that verse out of context. The death there refers to salvation i.e."death to sin"

pls note, if you should contradict the bible it then means that there is an error in your teaching since it CANT be God's word that is in the wrong.

More question after you answer this questions

Lol, how nice. Sounds like the kind of comment I usually make after I have presented a brother with scriptural questions.

I know you probably have more questions coming up but before you do, I think it is only fair to ask you some here:

What happens to a sinner after he dies? I know you disagree with eternal torment so I'll leave that out but please choose an option:

A. He never resurrects and stays in an unconscious state forever.

B. He resurrects and then God deletes him and he goes back into an unconscious state forever.

C. He is in a conscious holding place(hades) from where he resurrects to have his consciousness deleted forever.

D. He resurrects and God condemns him to the "lake of fire" where he is "burnt" until he dies again I.e. suffers for some time before he finally is annihilated/deleted/thrown into a forever unconscious state.

ijawkid:

Mr anony my comrade....

Just a little question for you.......

What will actually be tormenting these bad guys (satan,his demons,rulers of the earth,death,hell,unrighteous persons etc) in the lake of fire??

Is it the fire itself or something else??

Because I barely think any fire can literally torment satan who is a spirit!!!!!!!!!.........

Rev 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. KJV

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. RSV

Make of it what you may.

And where would this literal lake of fire be located??......

I have never said the fire must be literal. Go an read my Introductory post.

Also if death and hell would literally be tormented along§ide real persons day and night for all eternity then can we as well say that once upon a time there were persons or individuals known as death and ""hell "".......??........

death and hades have been treated as persons obviously in this verse. If you don't think so but you think its is all an abstract discussion merely talking about elimination of entities, then you are left with the burden of explaining why the devil is an exception to your thesis. Seeing that the bible makes it clear that he will be tormented forever.

Lastly where is adam and eve the instigators of mankinds dilemma??

I don't know. Ask God. But then again, I see no relevance for the whereabouts of Adam and Eve to this discourse

truthislight:

that pareble of the rich man and lazarus is teaching a change of condition between those that follow Jesus in this system of things and those that dont.

That in the new world there will be a turn of event and the followers of christ will be in God's favour and those not following christ will get God displeasure and will under go what fire symbolise = second death/everlasting death.

Your explanation would have made sense if not that Luke 16:19-31 clearly shows that both the rich man and Lazarus are very dead.

truthislight:

the bible clearly says that death is the cessation of life. Ecclesiates 9:5,6,10 and Psalm 146:4.

Anony theory is none biblical and as such is null and void in this debate and search for the truth.

No scripture backing then it cant be the truth.

Please truthislight, let us stick to the rules. It is christians only. Let cyrexx comment but don't respond to his post let's not start having back-and-forths with those of us who don't regard the bible so that the thread doesn't get derailed with. And cyrexx, please don't respond to this. Help us try to keep this thread in line so we can get to the conclusion of the issue according to the bible. Cheers

^^

I am not derailing this thread. What i posted is totally relevant to the topic, even more relevant than some other derailers you tolerate. Your response to truthislight and specifically referring to my username while ignoring the relevant point i made is an act of derailing by your very own self. If you dont want to respond to my posts, then JUST DONT RESPOND and focus on your discussion ( i never seek response anyway, i'm just posting what i feel is relevant and you cant deny me that right as long as i dont troll or derail, nobody is here with certificate of christianity to confirm their status, i just might exhibit "christian character" more than some of your other christians).

You are actually derailing by calling out my username while you totally avoid my point as if its irrelevant.

Focus. Dont dodge artfully.

Nuff said

Lol. Well, I'll be up with my introductory statement in a few. A little too busy at the moment. As an aside, some of you guys need not be so predictable breaking the rules, you know

Another side note, useless rules made to promote shortsighted bigotry and suppress the truth are not meant to be kept but disregarded in favor of truth and fairness.

*edited*

truthislight:

please, for this debate to be useful, you have to used scripture to refute scriptures.

You cannot reward yourself eternal life nor can you reward another person, that reward is God's and as such let us allow God's word to stand, so please it is either you have a scripture to refute or you allow what has been said from scripture to stand as a fact.

I know you probably don't mean it that way but then if scripture becomes self-refuting, it breaks down. Go and take the time to read my introductory post and be sure to consult all the verses I cited. I don't have to always paste a scripture verse when I am saying the same thing again.

can you use the bible to show that man is still existing after death?

Simple. I'll give you a small example
Matthew 17:1-4. Moses and Elijah were clearly existing after death.

If you cant, then this statement of yours is inconsequential to what the bible and plans are but are a figment of your own imagination and a false doctrine.

I can and I have.

Once again, all your statment MUST have a scripture backing and if not, dont pen it down.

Dont rationalise for God.

If it is not bible based it is not God's plans.

I agree, now please go and read my introductory statement properly

Psalm 37:9,10 is in agreement with what Revelation 19:11-18= wicked being cut off, what there described as being the fate of the wicked and will be done personally by Jesus with a sword is what God plans. so you are not qualify to wave it off with words of mouth.
Peace

Really I am lost as to what you mean here. Do you mean Jesus literally using a sword to kill sinners?

Hello everyone, my introduction to this discussion is as follows:

The bible introduces to us God right from the very beginning as the Lord of cause and effect. He starts out by declaring (cause) and then seeing the effect. We are thus made to glimpse the nature of the Administrator of The Universe, the Ultimate Judge. As we proceed through Genesis we are made to understand more and more of His Character. His dealings with men begin with the first humans Adam and Eve, He still shows us that He will deal with humans on a cause and effect basis; He tells them do this & this, and that & that will happen. As the narrative time moves on we witness that men have become corrupted and it leads Him to make the decision to destroy them saving an uncorrupted man, Noah. Even in dealing with Abraham we see Him base it on a cause and effect ground. The Abrahamic episodes however provide us with a deeper insight into His judgement style. A certain day comes and He declares to Abraham:

Genesis 18
King James Version (KJV)
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Also instructive is Abraham's response:

Genesis 18
King James Version (KJV)
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

This for me is the epitome of God's judgement style. He will make and inquiry into every single matter that will influence His decision and He will deal with offenders.

We should now look into the concept of hell. Most of the Old Testament does not expound on this concept much so we only seem to have just passing references to it being a place that exists for holding the souls of men after death. There doesn't seem to be a distinguishing amongst those that are held in the place:

2 Samuel 22:6
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

However it seem that the righteous fully expected to be delivered from the place.

Jonah 2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Coming to the New Testament we get a fuller picture on the nature of the place. Jesus gives a very big insight when He speaks about Lazarus and the Rich man:

Luke 16
King James Version (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

I will like to agree with commentators who say that this is not a parable because in no other parable does He give a name of the protagonist, making this a "real life" glimpse into hell and one of the clearest in the bible.

From what Jesus says we see that men are "conscious" after death, they have the full use of their memories, reasoning, senses, voice and limbs. From this direct view we have no question of soul sleep or annihilation after death. Men are "alive" perhaps in a more fundamental way even though they have no physical bodies.

Also made clear is that though men are all held together in the "grave" there is a separation between the righteous dead and the wicked dead. We see also see the wicked dead in torment and being "conscious" can fully appreciate the torment. However the nature of the torment while severe and heat related does not seem to be true fire. If it was true fire the rich man would not expect Lazarus to approach him much less bring water.

Having established these two things material to our discussion we can now ask will God send uncountable billions to hell, to torment and the answer unfortunately is yes. There is however a caveat and that is God will righteously judge. So we can expect that not all that do not believe or accept Him to be spared the torment of hell.

As a follow up to my last point, to suggest that man can exist outside his body without the life of God is actually bordering on witchcraft and pagan myth.

When Man was made he was inanimate, lifeless form , a mould of clay.

It was when God breathed into MAN that he became a living soul.

The bible does not say that God breathed soul and spirit into MAN, it says God breathed spirit into man ( spirit here denoting breath or wind ) and MAN became a living soul.

"then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." - Genesis 2:6

It is this breath or spirit of GOD which made man come into existence.

When this breath is taking away MAN returns to dust or as dorox correctly put it , lifeless dust.

"When thou hidest thy face, they are dismayed; when thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust. " - Psalm 104:29

God also called MAN dust without God's spirit.

" In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." - Genesis 3:19

The bible consistently rerfers to MAN as dust without the spirit or breath of GOD.

The idea that MAN can exist outside his body is totally alien to scripture and cannot be backed up biblically.

For example when Jesus died he said " father into your hands I commit my spirit " and then he died and his body returned to the ground.

I am trying to lay the correct foundation based on the bible, because it is this error of making MAN a being outside the life of GOD that got us here in the first place.

Even prophet Daniel knew from his Hebrew theology that all those who were dead weere not in some strange place suffering torment or enjoying bliss before judgement, they were actually in the dust of the earth.

What is the whole point of the resurrection if people are dead but still alive either with GOD paradise or in Hell before judgement, it it total madness and anti-scripture.

" And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" - Daniel 12:2

We notice from Daniel's understanding that the dead :
1. are currently sleep in the dust of the earth
2. shall awake at the resurrection and not before.

Let us stick to the bible.

I really have a problem when people form volumes of theology on just one parable and ignore 99% of the rest of scripture , this is how error starts. One good example is the white garment church that forbids it's members wearing shoes into the church because Moses took of his scandals before the burning bush.

We cannot base theology on a few cherry picked verses in the bible.

For a doctrine to be accurate it has to have the following attributes :

1. consistency
2. rationale
3. context
4. truth



Finally , the point of everlasting torment, I know some amongst us have ignored my post on this matter , but I repeat for clarity.

Even the devil himself shall be no more as the bible says quite explicitly in Ezeiekl 28:18 which goes :

"By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought forth fire from the midst of you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you"

There is no such thing as eternal torment, only those who have the breath of GOD in them can live forever and God has not promised his gift of immortality to the sinners and profane.

Also the bible quite succinctly explains that there will be no more DEATH , no more DEATH anywhere in the universe. To suggest that GOD is lying because we want to fit him into our theology is quite dangerous.

DEATH cannot be no more, when people are still dying for all eternity.

Mr_Anony:

Matthew 17:1-4. Moses and Elijah were clearly existing after death.

Not entirely true.

This was a vision as JESUS himself declared.

" And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead." - Matthew 17:9

frosbel: ^^

I made some typo corrections , so you may way to re-read my update above, in a sort of hurry.

@frosbel, I appreciate your response to my intro but then, I think the problem is that you didn't read my post properly as a whole document but in fragmented parts. You were probably a bit too eager to post objections. In some cases, you set out to object rhetoric only to agree with the point I am making anyway. There are also cases where you totally miss it. All that is by the way anyway.

I'm kinda busy now but I will come back to your comments a bit later.

Let's keep this rolling guys.

Mr_Anony: Not really, actually I have been very careful to put it in context as best as I could. hell/hades/sheol are used interchangeably throughout scripture. When I said hell was a fiery place, I made sure that I pointed out that this was likely what a Jew of Jesus' time visualized as hell for punishment of the wicked. Some other parts of the scripture simply render hell as the grave especially in the old testament.

you have not use hell with a clear sense of the word and hence the question.
Hell is translated as the common grave of mankind, six(6) feet below, and there is no fire inside the ground since there is no oxygen there if the fire was to be literal.
People have been deceive by wrong usage Of the word "hell fire"

Mr_Anony: Did Jesus descend into Hell? Yes he did. Was He burnt in a fire? The bible does not tell us.

now friend, dont be evasive with your answer to the truth.

If the grave or hell is not fire or a place of fire there is no way christ will be burn with fire, and there is no way that a translation of grave to hell can turn to fire and burn people.

So, we can say that those in hell are not in fire. QED. = hell fire is FALSE.

Mr_Anony:

Now Rev 20:14 tells us that the casting into the lake of fire is(the definition of) the second death. It does not say that the casting into the lake of fire results in the second death. You can read the same verse again Rev 21:

the word there is: "this means the second death the lake of fire" second death means the lake of fire, and we know what death is cause the bible defines death at ecclesiates 9:5,6,10.
You refuse to consider that part of the bible in your reply since it will prove your stand to be baseless.

Now, that ecclesiates say that the dead are are uncontiouse of NOTHING at all, that their brain is dead, that they know nothing at all.

^^^ how can uncontiouse thing/persons experience pain or torment?
Your stand on death being torment is false since uncontiouse things are incapable of feeling anything?

Fire in the bible = equal everlasting death, that is death again for the resurrected ones (dying two times)

Mr_Anony: How do I know that they will exist in a state of torment? Because Rev 20:10makes it clear that the devil will be tormented forever along with the beast and the false prophet.

no, this is a wrong idea since fire means everlasting death, you have to be consistent in apply the meaning of fire when you see it in the bible = second death = death without resurrection = everlasting death.

Forever and ever torment is for enphersis that this destruction is for eternity since we are talking about the symbolism of fire.

Note that spirit creatures dont have material body that literal fire can burn.
But the use of fire shows that satan and his demons will be removed/destroyed for ever.
Same thing with death and grave, this are abstract things that cant be burnt in fire.
Death does not exist as an entity and cannot be burnt literally.

Mr_Anony: Note again that the wicked have been resurrected to also be cast into the fire alive.

wrong again, the dead being resurrected is for judgement and the judgement day is 1000years revelation 20:4

so, you got it all mixe up bro.
It is after the 1kyrs judgement that God will kill those resurrected ones that refuse to follow christ.

This 1000yrs judgement is justice for the dead that never heard about christ and that is why it is for the "righteous and unritheouse"

Mr_Anony: Why is it then that the devil, the beast and his false prophet suffer forever

this false prophet/religion mention in rev 19:20 have been destroyed already befor this time that satan freed from 1000yrs prison Rev 20:1-3 will be destroyd.
This are not literal entities, but the fire shows they will be destroyed forever.

Mr_Anony: As I have said it may or may not be literal fire but the torment is real. refer again to my introductory post.

the fire is not literal.
The wages of sin is death, but the mention of fire makes it everlasting death.

Mr_Anony: The bible tells me that after death is judgment. Read Rev 20, the dead will all be resurrected and then judgment will be meted out.

you did not mention that the judgement is for 1000yrs.

That it involve all.
That they remain in the waiting till that period, and not imediately.

Mr_Anony:
You have quoted that verse out of context. The death there refers to salvation i.e."death to sin"

no i did not. The same principle is used for baptism.
After baptism pass sins are forgiving. Romans 6:1:7

dont denied that when some one is buried in water baptism as in your coming out(resurrection) his old sins are forgiving.

It is what happens at death that is used for baptism.

Died to Adamic sin and resurected as a new person.

This is God means of undoing all that satan has ever done to mankind.

frosbel: As a follow up to my last point, to suggest that man can exist outside his body without the life of God is actually bordering on witchcraft and pagan myth.

When Man was made he was inanimate, lifeless form , a mould of clay.

It was when God breathed into MAN that he became a living soul.

The bible does not say that God breathed soul and spirit into MAN, it says God breathed spirit into man ( spirit here denoting breath or wind ) and MAN became a living soul.

"then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." - Genesis 2:6

It is this breath or spirit of GOD which made man come into existence.

When this breath is taking away MAN returns to dust or as dorox correctly put it , lifeless dust.

"When thou hidest thy face, they are dismayed; when thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust. " - Psalm 104:29

God also called MAN dust without God's spirit.

" In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." - Genesis 3:19

The bible consistently rerfers to MAN as dust without the spirit or breath of GOD.

The idea that MAN can exist outside his body is totally alien to scripture and cannot be backed up biblically.

For example when Jesus died he said " father into your hands I commit my spirit " and then he died and his body returned to the ground.

I am trying to lay the correct foundation based on the bible, because it is this error of making MAN a being outside the life of GOD that got us here in the first place.

Even prophet Daniel knew from his Hebrew theology that all those who were dead weere not in some strange place suffering torment or enjoying bliss before judgement, they were actually in the dust of the earth.

What is the whole point of the resurrection if people are dead but still alive either with GOD paradise or in Hell before judgement, it it total madness and anti-scripture.

" And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" - Daniel 12:2

We notice from Daniel's understanding that the dead :
1. are currently sleep in the dust of the earth
2. shall awake at the resurrection and not before.

Let us stick to the bible.

I really have a problem when people form volumes of theology on just one parable and ignore 99% of the rest of scripture , this is how error starts. One good example is the white garment church that forbids it's members wearing shoes into the church because Moses took of his scandals before the burning bush.

We cannot base theology on a few cherry picked verses in the bible.

For a doctrine to be accurate it has to have the following attributes :

1. consistency
2. rationale
3. context
4. truth



Finally , the point of everlasting torment, I know some amongst us have ignored my post on this matter , but I repeat for clarity.

Even the devil himself shall be no more as the bible says quite explicitly in Ezeiekl 28:18 which goes :

"By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought forth fire from the midst of you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you"

There is no such thing as eternal torment, only those who have the breath of GOD in them can live forever and God has not promised his gift of immortality to the sinners and profane.

Also the bible quite succinctly explains that there will be no more DEATH , no more DEATH anywhere in the universe. To suggest that GOD is lying because we want to fit him into our theology is quite dangerous.

DEATH cannot be no more, when people are still dying for all eternity.

Quoted for future reference....I'll come back to this.

@Lord_Reed.

Brother, all the verses you mentoined actually refer to Sheol and not HELL.

The KJV has dubiously translated the word grave from both the Hebrew and Greek meanings into HELL all over.

The correct interpretation is the grave.

This is how the RSV bible version corrects this error and it reads thus :
"the cords of Sheol entangled me, the snares of death confronted me." - 2 Samuel 22:6

sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Short Definition: Sheol


Death is sorrow , no ?

Nowhere does it mention that there is a fire burning those in the grave, this is not according to scripture.

Mr_Anony:
@frosbel, I appreciate your response to my intro but then, I think the problem is that you didn't read my post properly as a whole document but in fragmented parts. You were probably a bit too eager to post objections. In some cases, you set out to object rhetoric only to agree with the point I am making anyway. There are also cases where you totally miss it. All that is by the way anyway.

I'm kinda busy now but I will come back to your comments a bit later.

Let's keep this rolling guys.

thanks for the compliment, I have also noted your veiled snides , an example the bolded , I aint got a problem with it.

Lord_Reed: Hello everyone, my introduction to this discussion is as follows:

Having established these two things material to our discussion we can now ask will God send uncountable billions to hell, to torment and the answer unfortunately is yes. There is however a caveat and that is God will righteously judge. So we can expect that not all that do not believe or accept Him to be spared the torment of hell.

Actually the answer is NO

1. There is no immortality to the wicked.
2. God's anger is not going to last for eternity
3. Death itself will be destroyed, so to suggest that people will be dying for all eternity is actually illogically unscriptural.
4. You are portraying Hitler as a Boys scout in comparison to GOD
4. God is not the author and finisher of torture, he is the author and giver of live.

Mr_Anony:
Your explanation would have made sense if not that Luke 16:19-31 clearly shows that both the rich man and Lazarus are very dead.

its making sense that. Job is not literal as they don't have the name of his wife. sorry, I'm still on the search for that Grace i spark of.
did me just read 'don't rationalize for God', from an anti Trinity fellow, what a joke!

Anony:
What happens to a sinner after he dies? I know you disagree with eternal torment so I'll leave that out but please choose an option:

this is my answer:
* He will neve resurrects and stays in a conscious state till he is being resurrected and giving the poturnity to Decide on judgement day.
.*

^^^

the sinner that have never heard of the message about the christ have no basis to be destroyed forever.

Such ones that God feels that they where honest from the heart though they never heard about christ are known by God and will be resurrected.
Isaiah 5:20

but those sinners that have heard about christ, the message they have heard about the christ, their response to the message serves as a judgement to them and they are not the kind of unrighteose the bible is talking about.

frosbel:

Not entirely true.

This was a vision as JESUS himself declared.

" And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead." - Matthew 17:9

Hmm....If Moses and Elijah didn't really appear, did Jeaus really transfigure? Or was it all just a "vision"?

Mr_Anony:
Hmm....If Moses and Elijah didn't really appear, did Jeaus really transfigure? Or was it all just a "vision"?

"Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead." - Matthew 17:9

In the same chapter, Elijah is then said to be John the Baptist.

"The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist - Matthew 17:10-11

Mr_Anony: Simple. I'll give you a small example
Matthew 17:1-4. Moses and Elijah were clearly existing after death.

error error errors,

Elijah did not go to heaven or was taken to heaven.

At the bible book of 2kings 2:11
Elijah was said to have been carried by a chariot into heaven/sky like a plane will fly into the sky, but this those not means that Elijah was taken to heaven where God and the angels leave, how do we know this?

Because at 2chronicles 21:12
Elijah sent a letter to another king of Israel, Je-Ho-ram that leaved and ruled many years after Elijah was carried away.

Many many years later.

Meaning that God simply hide his prophet Elijah on another part of the earth to prevent harm getting to him by bad kings ruling Israel at that time and wanted to kill Elijah.

About moses, when he died his body was still on earth, but to prevent Idolatrouse worship, God has to hide his body as can be seen by the argument between satan and angel Michael contending about the DEAD body of moses at the wilderness.
Jude verse 9.

Moses did not go to heaven also.
They died and was buried on earth.

Unless you want to tell us that Jesus lied when he said that no man has ascended into heaven befor but him that came down. John 3:13 ( no man has ascended into heaven)

If people had gone to heaven befor why will Jesus have to go back to heaven and prepare a place befor taking his disciples back to heaven?

Transfiguration is semilar to a vision or projection. Just like the vision of God though no man have ever seen God.

It was meant to impress on the disciple of christ who Jesus was and what Jesus can do.

Mr_Anony:
Really I am lost as to what you mean here. Do you mean Jesus literally using a sword to kill sinners?

there is a different between death by cutting and death by burning.

Rev 19:18 mention the birds of heaven gathered to eat fleshy part of those slain and that clearly agrees with psalm 37:9-11