Can the parable folks please create a thread for parables? i just tried reading through and saw a lot of waste of space, insanity and very uninteresting reading. And all the folks yapping about their views as 'truth'and others' as 'tradition' are just sickening. The Bible is truth, Jesus is truth, God is truth. Like my previous two posts, i expect this also to be largely ignored, or at most quoted and replied with a hopeless one-liner like "DEBUNKED or FAIL". Folks are learning hard from logicb.
On to my continued post. God is Holy and Loving. It is His holiness and Love that produce Hell. Hell is a very general statement in scriptures that mean many things; like hell fire or lake of fire, grave or coffin, a outer darkness sort of place ETC.
Jesus Christ the meek and lowly, loving and gentle, tender and kind Saviour spoke the most of Hell. he created it BTW. Unmistakable is the fact that He often described it as a place of torment, weeping, and darkness.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Jesus is quite unequivocal on this, There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. If Jesus says something will be, i wonder the sort of christian that says it will not be.

Hell is basically a God forsaken place or state. Heaven is where God is. If God is not in Heaven, count me out. I want to follow Him and Him alone. Hell is a place of death, separation. Hell fire is a place of eternal separation from God. the very absence of God is what makes the hellishness of hell fire than any other thing. We were made to connect to god. a disconnect will ultimately lead to torment, dissatisfaction and unfulfillment. Hell in scriptures is determined based on context, this has been explained in mine previous posts with bible references. hell may refer to the lake of fire or hell fire, hell may refer to the grave or coffin or place of burial, hell may also refer to what i want to talk on and which this thread may actually need some discussion about. the hell i'm referencing is the place where the ungodly are before they go to the lake of fire. Is there any hell apart from the lake of fire or the grave, yes. Consider the below.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
CONSIDER, BEHOLD, that the 'angels' here are in 'hell', waiting for judgement. they are not yet in the lake of fire, as they are reserved unto it. And of course they are not in the coffin. This hell is what is like a detention before final sentence/judgement. a detention is not a place of freedom or enjoyment. It is this hell that one may conclude that sinners are in before they are finally Judged/sentenced to hell fire.
When a man dies, BTW man is said to be made up of spirit, soul and body.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Man is not just a soul, or just a body/flesh, or just a spirit. He is uniquely tripartite. When a man dies, his body goes to the dust, his spirit goes up, and his soul goes to either the hell currently spoken of, or to where the Bible calls emmmmmm Abraham's bosom, or paradise, or under the altar. Like hell is generalised, many can simply generalise this as heaven. Cos in a sense, it is heaven, not looking at the technicalities, doctrines, and papers of all the brilliant men around. A simple everyday believer common man can say, my friend has died and gone to heaven. Low battery, i'll continue later with the bible passages you're probably about to scream for.

Reyginus: Lol. Man is a living soul because God breathed life into him.
If am to go by this your doctrine, it will follow that animals too have the spirit of God in them, because they are living souls. And also when the soul dies the spirit dies too. That will be bunch of confusion.

actually, your limited knowledge of the bible is the reason for this comment

Reyginus:
If am to go by this your doctrine, it will follow that animals too have the spirit of God in them, because they are living souls. And also when the soul dies the spirit dies too. That will be bunch of confusion.

now hear God's truth:

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20).

Let me add another scripture so that you can leave behind this your idea that the ogboni and Eckanka and African traditional Religion all have in common

"He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish." (Psalm 49:19-20).

Now, this is what the bible teaches
leave satanic knowledge alone, man is mortal.
Peace

Lord_Reed:

First off, read this:

then read this:

Then tell me how this event could possibly be any other time than at the time of His death.

Why would He need to preach to fallen angels? Was it for them He died?

try reading other translation and you will find out that it says that Jesus was raise up a life giving spirit.

He raise befor preaching to those spirits.

Peace.

Image123: Can the parable folks please create a thread for parables? i just tried reading through and saw a lot of waste of space, insanity and very uninteresting reading. And all the folks yapping about their views as 'truth'and others' as 'tradition' are just sickening. The Bible is truth, Jesus is truth, God is truth. Like my previous two posts, i expect this also to be largely ignored, or at most quoted and replied with a hopeless one-liner like "DEBUNKED or FAIL". Folks are learning hard from logicb.
On to my continued post. God is Holy and Loving. It is His holiness and Love that produce Hell. Hell is a very general statement in scriptures that mean many things; like hell fire or lake of fire, grave or coffin, a outer darkness sort of place ETC.
Jesus Christ the meek and lowly, loving and gentle, tender and kind Saviour spoke the most of Hell. he created it BTW. Unmistakable is the fact that He often described it as a place of torment, weeping, and darkness.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Jesus is quite unequivocal on this, There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. If Jesus says something will be, i wonder the sort of christian that says it will not be.

Hell is basically a God forsaken place or state. Heaven is where God is. If God is not in Heaven, count me out. I want to follow Him and Him alone. Hell is a place of death, separation. Hell fire is a place of eternal separation from God. the very absence of God is what makes the hellishness of hell fire than any other thing. We were made to connect to god. a disconnect will ultimately lead to torment, dissatisfaction and unfulfillment. Hell in scriptures is determined based on context, this has been explained in mine previous posts with bible references. hell may refer to the lake of fire or hell fire, hell may refer to the grave or coffin or place of burial, hell may also refer to what i want to talk on and which this thread may actually need some discussion about. the hell i'm referencing is the place where the ungodly are before they go to the lake of fire. Is there any hell apart from the lake of fire or the grave, yes. Consider the below.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
CONSIDER, BEHOLD, that the 'angels' here are in 'hell', waiting for judgement. they are not yet in the lake of fire, as they are reserved unto it. And of course they are not in the coffin. This hell is what is like a detention before final sentence/judgement. a detention is not a place of freedom or enjoyment. It is this hell that one may conclude that sinners are in before they are finally Judged/sentenced to hell fire.
When a man dies, BTW man is said to be made up of spirit, soul and body.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Man is not just a soul, or just a body/flesh, or just a spirit. He is uniquely tripartite. When a man dies, his body goes to the dust, his spirit goes up, and his soul goes to either the hell currently spoken of, or to where the Bible calls emmmmmm Abraham's bosom, or paradise, or under the altar. Like hell is generalised, many can simply generalise this as heaven. Cos in a sense, it is heaven, not looking at the technicalities, doctrines, and papers of all the brilliant men around. A simple everyday believer common man can say, my friend has died and gone to heaven. Low battery, i'll continue later with the bible passages you're probably about to scream for.

Thanks, bro. God bless you.
God2man.

Reyginus: Very good. That goes to show that the punishment for sodom and gomorah was beyond the events that happened in the city. It transcended to hell. If the word 'eternal' is defined as a limit, it ceases to be original and lose meaning.

eternal is eternal = eternal death.

Reyginus: The issue is not where they are now, but where they would be in the time to come.
If the grave is hell, that also entails that the righteous who have died are in hell as we speak.

hell is the common grave of man that has been translate from hebrew sheol and greek Hedes.

Jesus went to hell as a righteous man.

All other rigtheous people went to hell and wait until they are resurected.

Hail is grave. Six feet.

Reyginus: The problem we christains have with bible verses is that we fail to break the constituents words down for proper analysis.
What is fate? Is it the unifying factor between man and beast. No. The verse in quote is only pointing out why we should be less concerned about earthly possession. Verse 21 is a rhetoric question centered upon correcting the wrong notion of man claiming to be too important.
Let me ask you this question:
Do animals have spirits?
Secondly, is life useless?

let me still show it to you that animal and man have the same spirit.

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 3:19).

Learn well.

Reyginus: how can something which you claim has a limit have an eternal result?

the death is eternal death no resurrection.

That is what we are talking about.

Reyginus: He was in a grave for sure. But not in hell.
Hell is a place of torment. Is their any form of torture in the graves?
Compare it with what the nature of hell is.

you need to go and confirm the hebrew and greek words translated into hell to have the sense of what hell is.

Now, why do i say that there is activity and consciousness after a man dies and before the lake of fire, because the Bible suggests so. it is not much activity, hence the reason for a later resurrection. this position may sound contrary to 'the position of Solomon', as many have put up on this thread, but i will stand with it based firstly on the authority of One wiser and greater than Solomon, and on the words of the apostles who have the mind of Christ BTW. Infact their words are actually the word of Christ if we should go further. Secondly, i stand with this because the position of Solomon has been misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
In this passage, please note that some people had died, but their SOULS are at place called under the altar. These souls can actually speak, no, even cry aloud or shout. They are not totally unconscious. this period is BEFORE the Lord Judges, before judgement. these souls are even given white robes. they are in a place of rest. This agrees with common thoughts of Resting in peace after death, and the position of Sleeping or been asleep. this is what is said in the scriptures of believers that die. they are safe in the arms of Jesus, in Abraham's bosom as it were, asleep, in paradise. they are entered into Rest, unlike the sinner who has no rest. there is no peace for the sinner, infact, he runs even when nobody is pursuing.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven. Hear apostle Paul
Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Paul knew that death for him was not inactivity, it was a gain. A place to be. A better place than this earth. paradise, Abraham's bosom is a better place than this earth, even though it is not the final destination. We'll still be raptured and changed.
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul knew that if he died, he would immediately BE WITH CHRIST. He said it is far better. it is not an empty state of waiting, it is a place of RESTing for a while. This is where believers go when they die. When sinners die, they go to a place of torment, darkness and weeping, hell. i expect some folks to deceive themselves as if they've not read the previous posts i made, and make remarks on a few sentences or phrases i just made. that's the same way they treat God's Word, in part, cherry picking, not in the whole.
To be fair on my pesin Solomon, lets briefly look at Eccl.
Ecclesiastes as a whole should be taken in its proper context. It is the words of the preacher, and the core message he is giving is that this world/life is vanity. And that each individual should be wise BECAUSE OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT. He is not trivialising judgement and saying sinners will die and nothing will happen, then God will wake them up and they will die again. No, He is warning man to see himself as fallen, just like or close to the animal. he should not be overcome by pride or learning. There is nothing new. here is a cross section

Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
If you read the book, it will be good you note the contexts, and several hints to show that man is limited, and the unOBVIOUS context of "upon the earth" or "under the sun". It is not everything that applies under the sun/on the earth that applies in the afterlife or in Heaven or in Hell.


Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
i've highlighted some not so obviousES. One, he is going to theme on Judgement and Vanity, God will judge. Then he tells man, he is but a man. he is in a fallen state. he will die like an animal dies, like the fish doesn't know when it will die. he is not so intelligent or preeminent as to know even this basics. Please note the last verse where he makes a distinction. Man is not completely equal to animals. Animals won't fac judgement or go to heaven and hell. he says 'the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward'
for time and space purpose,
Ecc 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.
there is your judgement and vanity theme again,

Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
Up here again, and

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
and there again. So to some other passages to help with our thread,


Ecc 6:3 If a man beget a hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Ecc 6:4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.
Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
this passage tells us that there is life after death. he compares the state of rest of the dead, this hath more rest than the other
What the passage is saying, incase you are not too accustomed to the style of writing is this. If a man achieves much on earth, lives many years, gives birth to many children, and yet loses his soul(in the words of Jesus) i.e his soul not filled with good. he says a dead baby is better than him. for the old man came in with vanity and departed earth in darkness. but the baby has not seen the sun or known anything. He has MORE REST than the other.do not all go to one place?, as in, is everybody not going to die. But one has MORE REST than the other. they are not all just unconscious and inactive.

then He asks a question,
Ecc 6:12 For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?
who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun? Even Solomon did not know. But Jesus knew Still, we see Solomon used by divine inspiration to still reveal truths though with limited understanding.
Let me speak briefly on the star passage though,

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
In summary, he is saying that after death, it is judgement. there is no repentance in the grave. there is no i'm sorry. It is like when you submit your answer in an exam. There is still hope for one who is alive, the living can still erase something, re-spell or shade something, but not the dead. the dead don submit answer as it were. there is nothing they can do again to get a reward. neither have they any more a reward. he is not literally saying they will not be rewarded again. Folks pick up know not any thing but won't pick up 'neither have they any more a reward'. They will ALL be rewarded ACCORDING TO their works. But once dead, there is no more love, or hatred or envy to demonstrate. nothing new to learn, you don buy am literally. they don't have a say, or any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun. this is why he exhorts later on in the chapter that,

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Ecc 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. So please, stop misunderstanding my pal King Solomon. There is life after death, and hell awaits all sinners, whatever hell now means.

Image123: Can the parable folks please create a thread for parables? i just tried reading through and saw a lot of waste of space, insanity and very uninteresting reading. And all the folks yapping about their views as 'truth'and others' as 'tradition' are just sickening. The Bible is truth, Jesus is truth, God is truth. Like my previous two posts, i expect this also to be largely ignored, or at most quoted and replied with a hopeless one-liner like "DEBUNKED or FAIL". Folks are learning hard from logicb.
On to my continued post. God is Holy and Loving. It is His holiness and Love that produce Hell. Hell is a very general statement in scriptures that mean many things; like hell fire or lake of fire, grave or coffin, a outer darkness sort of place ETC.
Jesus Christ the meek and lowly, loving and gentle, tender and kind Saviour spoke the most of Hell. he created it BTW. Unmistakable is the fact that He often described it as a place of torment, weeping, and darkness.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Jesus is quite unequivocal on this, There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. If Jesus says something will be, i wonder the sort of christian that says it will not be.

Hell is basically a God forsaken place or state. Heaven is where God is. If God is not in Heaven, count me out. I want to follow Him and Him alone. Hell is a place of death, separation. Hell fire is a place of eternal separation from God. the very absence of God is what makes the hellishness of hell fire than any other thing. We were made to connect to god. a disconnect will ultimately lead to torment, dissatisfaction and unfulfillment. Hell in scriptures is determined based on context, this has been explained in mine previous posts with bible references. hell may refer to the lake of fire or hell fire, hell may refer to the grave or coffin or place of burial, hell may also refer to what i want to talk on and which this thread may actually need some discussion about. the hell i'm referencing is the place where the ungodly are before they go to the lake of fire. Is there any hell apart from the lake of fire or the grave, yes. Consider the below.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
CONSIDER, BEHOLD, that the 'angels' here are in 'hell', waiting for judgement. they are not yet in the lake of fire, as they are reserved unto it. And of course they are not in the coffin. This hell is what is like a detention before final sentence/judgement. a detention is not a place of freedom or enjoyment. It is this hell that one may conclude that sinners are in before they are finally Judged/sentenced to hell fire.
When a man dies, BTW man is said to be made up of spirit, soul and body.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Man is not just a soul, or just a body/flesh, or just a spirit. He is uniquely tripartite. When a man dies, his body goes to the dust, his spirit goes up, and his soul goes to either the hell currently spoken of, or to where the Bible calls emmmmmm Abraham's bosom, or paradise, or under the altar. Like hell is generalised, many can simply generalise this as heaven. Cos in a sense, it is heaven, not looking at the technicalities, doctrines, and papers of all the brilliant men around. A simple everyday believer common man can say, my friend has died and gone to heaven. Low battery, i'll continue later with the bible passages you're probably about to scream for.

Lovely!
Notice how they keep trying to shy away from the suffering of the wicked.
The question I keep asking which they keep evading: Even if it is "just a parable", why would Jesus use false conditions to illustrate a truth?
........And not only do it once but over and over again He points at an afterlife suffering for the wicked.

[quote author=Image123] Now, why do i say that there is activity and consciousness after a man dies and before the lake of fire, because the Bible suggests so. it is not much activity, hence the reason for a later resurrection. this position may sound contrary to 'the position of Solomon', as many have put up on this thread, but i will stand with it based firstly on the authority of One wiser and greater than Solomon, and on the words of the apostles who have the mind of Christ BTW. Infact their words are actually the word of Christ if we should go further. Secondly, i stand with this because the position of Solomon has been misinterpreted and misunderstood.

There is no contradiction between the words of Solomon and Jesus or the apostles.

I am really worried for those who associate with your form of theology as it is pagan , false and quite misleading.

You show no respect for the consistency of GOD's word.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
In this passage, please note that some people had died, but their SOULS are at place called under the altar. These souls can actually speak, no, even cry aloud or shout. They are not totally unconscious. this period is BEFORE the Lord Judges, before judgement. these souls are even given white robes. they are in a place of rest. This agrees with common thoughts of Resting in peace after death, and the position of Sleeping or been asleep. this is what is said in the scriptures of believers that die. they are safe in the arms of Jesus, in Abraham's bosom as it were, asleep, in paradise. they are entered into Rest, unlike the sinner who has no rest. there is no peace for the sinner, infact, he runs even when nobody is pursuing.

A number of problems with you assessment.

1. First of all this is an allegory, it is not actual fact that the souls of men and women will be under the altar for countless ages waiting for the end of the world, you guys are really confused. One minute they are with JESUS and the next minute they are under an altar.

2. We then have to assume that ABEL's blood is still crying today from the ground literally


The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground - Genesis 4;10

3. You have to take everything in revelation literally , for example :

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months - Revelation 9:7-10

In this passage you MUST agree that :

- Locusts looked like horses prepared for battle
- They had crowns of gold
- the Locusts had human faces
- The Locust have women's hair
- The Locusts had Lion's teeth

etc etc


Now you are beginning to see how silly it is to take everything in the book of revelation literally.


The verse you quoted simply implies that as ABEL's blood cried, the blood of the just who have died since the world began is crying unto God even though they are dead , for vengance and God will avenge in due course.

New International Version (©1984)
By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead - Hebrews 11:4

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also [b]which sleep i[/b]n Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul rightly said they sleep, someone cannot be sleeping and be awake somewhere else.

You keep showing a serious inability to rightly discern the word of GOD because the answer to your confusion is in the same chaper

When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven. Hear apostle Paul

Which one is it , make up your mind, are they in paradise or under the altar, does being under an altar sound like paradise to you ?

Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Paul knew that death for him was not inactivity, it was a gain. A place to be. A better place than this earth. paradise, Abraham's bosom is a better place than this earth, even though it is not the final destination. We'll still be raptured and changed.
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Fail again.

Death to Paul meant sleep and previously mentioned.

Image123: Now, why do i say that there is activity and consciousness after a man dies and before the lake of fire, because the Bible suggests so. it is not much activity, hence the reason for a later resurrection. this position may sound contrary to 'the position of Solomon', as many have put up on this thread, but i will stand with it based firstly on the authority of One wiser and greater than Solomon, and on the words of the apostles who have the mind of Christ BTW. Infact their words are actually the word of Christ if we should go further. Secondly, i stand with this because the position of Solomon has been misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
In this passage, please note that some people had died, but their SOULS are at place called under the altar. These souls can actually speak, no, even cry aloud or shout. They are not totally unconscious. this period is BEFORE the Lord Judges, before judgement. these souls are even given white robes. they are in a place of rest. This agrees with common thoughts of Resting in peace after death, and the position of Sleeping or been asleep. this is what is said in the scriptures of believers that die. they are safe in the arms of Jesus, in Abraham's bosom as it were, asleep, in paradise. they are entered into Rest, unlike the sinner who has no rest. there is no peace for the sinner, infact, he runs even when nobody is pursuing.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven. Hear apostle Paul
Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Paul knew that death for him was not inactivity, it was a gain. A place to be. A better place than this earth. paradise, Abraham's bosom is a better place than this earth, even though it is not the final destination. We'll still be raptured and changed.
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul knew that if he died, he would immediately BE WITH CHRIST. He said it is far better. it is not an empty state of waiting, it is a place of RESTing for a while. This is where believers go when they die. When sinners die, they go to a place of torment, darkness and weeping, hell. i expect some folks to deceive themselves as if they've not read the previous posts i made, and make remarks on a few sentences or phrases i just made. that's the same way they treat God's Word, in part, cherry picking, not in the whole.
To be fair on my pesin Solomon, lets briefly look at Eccl.
Ecclesiastes as a whole should be taken in its proper context. It is the words of the preacher, and the core message he is giving is that this world/life is vanity. And that each individual should be wise BECAUSE OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT. He is not trivialising judgement and saying sinners will die and nothing will happen, then God will wake them up and they will die again. No, He is warning man to see himself as fallen, just like or close to the animal. he should not be overcome by pride or learning. There is nothing new. here is a cross section

Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
If you read the book, it will be good you note the contexts, and several hints to show that man is limited, and the unOBVIOUS context of "upon the earth" or "under the sun". It is not everything that applies under the sun/on the earth that applies in the afterlife or in Heaven or in Hell.


Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
i've highlighted some not so obviousES. One, he is going to theme on Judgement and Vanity, God will judge. Then he tells man, he is but a man. he is in a fallen state. he will die like an animal dies, like the fish doesn't know when it will die. he is not so intelligent or preeminent as to know even this basics. Please note the last verse where he makes a distinction. Man is not completely equal to animals. Animals won't fac judgement or go to heaven and hell. he says 'the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward'
for time and space purpose,
Ecc 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.
there is your judgement and vanity theme again,

Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
Up here again, and

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
and there again. So to some other passages to help with our thread,


Ecc 6:3 If a man beget a hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Ecc 6:4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.
Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
this passage tells us that there is life after death. he compares the state of rest of the dead, this hath more rest than the other
What the passage is saying, incase you are not too accustomed to the style of writing is this. If a man achieves much on earth, lives many years, gives birth to many children, and yet loses his soul(in the words of Jesus) i.e his soul not filled with good. he says a dead baby is better than him. for the old man came in with vanity and departed earth in darkness. but the baby has not seen the sun or known anything. He has MORE REST than the other.do not all go to one place?, as in, is everybody not going to die. But one has MORE REST than the other. they are not all just unconscious and inactive.

then He asks a question,
Ecc 6:12 For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?
who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun? Even Solomon did not know. But Jesus knew Still, we see Solomon used by divine inspiration to still reveal truths though with limited understanding.
Let me speak briefly on the star passage though,

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
In summary, he is saying that after death, it is judgement. there is no repentance in the grave. there is no i'm sorry. It is like when you submit your answer in an exam. There is still hope for one who is alive, the living can still erase something, re-spell or shade something, but not the dead. the dead don submit answer as it were. there is nothing they can do again to get a reward. neither have they any more a reward. he is not literally saying they will not be rewarded again. Folks pick up know not any thing but won't pick up 'neither have they any more a reward'. They will ALL be rewarded ACCORDING TO their works. But once dead, there is no more love, or hatred or envy to demonstrate. nothing new to learn, you don buy am literally. they don't have a say, or any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun. this is why he exhorts later on in the chapter that,

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Ecc 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. So please, stop misunderstanding my pal King Solomon. There is life after death, and hell awaits all sinners, whatever hell now means.

Now this is what I believe we really should be discussing about. i.e. whether there is a conscious hell of torment before there is a lake of fire or whether there is a sleep until resurrection to life or second death.

I have my reservations with some parts of your posts but I'll air them a little later. Let us learn together

Image123:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
In this passage, please note that some people had died, but their SOULS are at place called under the altar. These souls can actually speak, no, even cry aloud or shout. They are not totally unconscious. this period is BEFORE the Lord Judges, before judgement. these souls are even given white robes. they are in a place of rest. This agrees with common thoughts of Resting in peace after death, and the position of Sleeping or been asleep. this is what is said in the scriptures of believers that die. they are safe in the arms of Jesus, in Abraham's bosom as it were, asleep, in paradise. they are entered into Rest, unlike the sinner who has no rest. there is no peace for the sinner, infact, he runs even when nobody is pursuing.

We are told from revelations that underneath this altar are "" the souls of them[/b] that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:""..............
Because of your pre-concieved notion that "" the soul"" is a disembodied part of a Human that escapes at one's death,you tend to conclude that definitly the dead are concious of there surrounding.....
I'll like to take you to the scriptures for us to see what the word ""soul"" stands for......

John knew that the soul or ""life"" is symbolized by the"" blood"",and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal.they sprinkled the blood ""round about upon the altar"" or poured it ""at the base of the altar of burnt offering""...

We can see this from leveticus 4:7 and 17:11-12 respectively
........
Leviticus 4:7
And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock atthe"" bottom of the altar of the burnt offering"", which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
.............
Leviticus 17:11-12
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the ""blood"": and Ihave given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat"" blood"", neither shall anystranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

................
So the life of those animals was in there ""blood"".....but here we are talking about souls or blood of these particular servants of God been seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven....why??
..Because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.....

Let's read phillipians 3:9-10....
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;............
..........
So john in a real sense was correct to had seen the souls( blood)of these matyrs underneath that symbolic altar.........these faithful ones in their day were matyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Gods word........

..............

In what sense were these souls crying out to GOD to avenge those who killed them??

Frosbel gave a perfect rebuttal by using ABEL as an example.......

ABels blood cried out after cain murdered Him....genesis 4:10-11 has that record......

It was not that abels blood literally was uttering words,rather abel had died as an innocent victim and justice called out for his murderer to be purnished.........

Similarly those christian matyrs are innocent,and in justice they must be avenged.......

These are the points you have to grasp..
1...There souls signifies there blood which was spilled
2....There souls(blood) being underneath that symbolic altar shows those faithful ones died a sacrificial death..
3....There souls crying out just as abels own did,shows they are waiting for justice to be done to there murderers...

Image123:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven. Hear apostle Paul
Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Paul knew that death for him was not inactivity, it was a gain. A place to be. A better place than this earth. paradise, Abraham's bosom is a better place than this earth, even though it is not the final destination. We'll still be raptured and changed.
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul knew that if he died, he would immediately BE WITH CHRIST. He said it is far better. it is not an empty state of waiting, it is a place of RESTing for a while. This is where believers go when they die. When sinners die, they go to a place of torment, darkness and weeping, hell. i expect some folks to deceive themselves as if they've not read the previous posts i made, and make remarks on a few sentences or phrases i just made. that's the same way they treat God's Word, in part, cherry picking, not in the whole.

Now please can you define paradise??

Is it the altar that is the paradise or what??

In case you've forgotten these faithful christians were to experience exactly the same ressurection Jesus underwent......

Until Jesus was ressurected he was no where to be found in heaven.......neither was Jesus running around the whole place aimlessly from his Grave...he waited until his Father ressurected Him...

Don't expect anything different when it comes to the ressurection of those who also died in the same manner Jesus did.....

Image123:
To be fair on my pesin Solomon, lets briefly look at Eccl.
Ecclesiastes as a whole should be taken in its proper context. It is the words of the preacher, and the core message he is giving is that this world/life is vanity. And that each individual should be wise BECAUSE OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT. He is not trivialising judgement and saying sinners will die and nothing will happen, then God will wake them up and they will die again. No, He is warning man to see himself as fallen, just like or close to the animal. he should not be overcome by pride or learning. There is nothing new. here is a cross section

Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
If you read the book, it will be good you note the contexts, and several hints to show that man is limited, and the unOBVIOUS context of "upon the earth" or "under the sun". It is not everything that applies under the sun/on the earth that applies in the afterlife or in Heaven or in Hell.


Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
i've highlighted some not so obviousES. One, he is going to theme on Judgement and Vanity, God will judge. Then he tells man, he is but a man. he is in a fallen state. he will die like an animal dies, like the fish doesn't know when it will die. he is not so intelligent or preeminent as to know even this basics. Please note the last verse where he makes a distinction. Man is not completely equal to animals. Animals won't fac judgement or go to heaven and hell. he says 'the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward'
for time and space purpose,
Ecc 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.
there is your judgement and vanity theme again,

Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
Up here again, and

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
and there again. So to some other passages to help with our thread,


Ecc 6:3 If a man beget a hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Ecc 6:4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.
Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
this passage tells us that there is life after death. he compares the state of rest of the dead, this hath more rest than the other
What the passage is saying, incase you are not too accustomed to the style of writing is this. If a man achieves much on earth, lives many years, gives birth to many children, and yet loses his soul(in the words of Jesus) i.e his soul not filled with good. he says a dead baby is better than him. for the old man came in with vanity and departed earth in darkness. but the baby has not seen the sun or known anything. He has MORE REST than the other.do not all go to one place?, as in, is everybody not going to die. But one has MORE REST than the other. they are not all just unconscious and inactive.

then He asks a question,
Ecc 6:12 For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?
who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun? Even Solomon did not know. But Jesus knew Still, we see Solomon used by divine inspiration to still reveal truths though with limited understanding.
Let me speak briefly on the star passage though,

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
In summary, he is saying that after death, it is judgement. there is no repentance in the grave. there is no i'm sorry. It is like when you submit your answer in an exam. There is still hope for one who is alive, the living can still erase something, re-spell or shade something, but not the dead. the dead don submit answer as it were. there is nothing they can do again to get a reward. neither have they any more a reward. he is not literally saying they will not be rewarded again. Folks pick up know not any thing but won't pick up 'neither have they any more a reward'. They will ALL be rewarded ACCORDING TO their works. But once dead, there is no more love, or hatred or envy to demonstrate. nothing new to learn, you don buy am literally. they don't have a say, or any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun. this is why he exhorts later on in the chapter that,

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Ecc 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. So please, stop misunderstanding my pal King Solomon. There is life after death, and hell awaits all sinners, whatever hell now means.

There is life after death after one is ressurected......

Don't you get it??

Ressurection is the word.....

David,abraham etc are all In there graves waiting until they are ressurected....

Freksy:

It's you that brought up this parable and have failed to explain it.

The rich man in the parable stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him.

Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God's Son.

The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Yahweh, the heavenly father.

At the same time, the false religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ's followers exposed their evil works.
So you see, the parable does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.

Please read from verse 14 and take note of Jesus primary audience.

Yes Jesus was talking to the pharisees but my friend, your explanation of that parable is by far the most convoluted I have ever seen. All you have done is try desperately hard to escape the plain truth.

So the pharisees "died" in respect to falling out of God's favour? Did the disciples i.e. the righteous also fall out of God's favor? (don't forget that Lazarus is also dead in the parable)

The even funnier explanation is the torment bit where you make it to mean that torment is their deeds exposed. Of course pharisees were in torment while happily beheading, stoning and crucifying apostles all over the place.

Your convoluted explanation fails woefully here my friend.

Please go to www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna befor reading the following.

In the Hebrew Scriptures Gehenna is "the valley Hinnom." Remember, Hinnom was the name of the valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the Israelites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time, good King Josiah had this valley made unfit to be used for such a horrible practice.

"And he defiled Topheth , which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom , that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech" - 2 Kings 23:10 KJV

During the time Jesus was on earth Gehenna was Jerusalem's garbage dump. Fires were kept burning there by the adding of brimstone (sulfur) to burn up the garbage. Smith's Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 1, explains: "It became the common lay-stall [garbage dump] of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." No live creatures, however, were cast there.

Knowing about their city's garbage dump, Jerusalem's inhabitants understood what Jesus meant when he told the wicked religious leaders: "Ye serpents , ye generation of vipers , how can ye escape the damnation of hell (Gehenna)?" - Matthew 23:33 KJV

Jesus plainly did not mean that those religious leaders would be tormented. Why, when the Israelites were burning their children alive in that valley, God said that to do such a horrible thing had never come up into his heart!

"And they have built the high places of Tophet , which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom , to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire ; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart ". - Jeremiah 7:31 KJV

So it was clear that Jesus was using Gehenna as a fitting symbol of complete and everlasting destruction. KJV uses the word "Hell"

Jesus meant that those wicked religious leaders were not worthy of a resurrection. Those listening to Jesus could understand that those going to Gehenna, like so much garbage, would be destroyed forever.

Actually, I was wondering how long before you tell me about gehenna. What is interesting here is how you have put one of the most spectacular twists to it.

Let us agree that Gehenna is a garbage dump that is burning with fire. Now think carefully about this. Why would Jesus specifically use the symbol of the wicked being burnt in fire after death? He could easily have referred to nominal death or the nominal grave but instead he chose to use Gehenna...............and not only that, He goes on to paint a terrifying picture of Gehenna's fire (in Mark 9). This should tell you that Jesus was hinting at something more than just a mere death.

Mind you, when you say that Jesus meant that some religious leaders wouldn't be worthy of resurrection, Bear in mind that it is highly unlikely that the Jews believed in resurrection at this time. Resurrection was something Christ introduced and even His disciples didn't quite get it until Jesus Himself resurrected. So the Jews could not have understood the whole concept of "no hope of resurrection" as you are trying to portray here.

The second part which is very funny and really doesn't help your case is how you explain Jer 7:31.

And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. KJV

Please read it honestly and tell me: From the above verse, what is it that God said he did not command nor think about? Is it the act of burning or is it the sacrifice of human children? Please think honestly. Don't try to force a verse to say what it is not saying.

Can you explain Jude 7?

What am I supposed to explain from Jude 7? The bible says eternal fire. Eternal fire it is. Ok so the fire is not burning Sodom and Gomorra as we speak. Does this mean that eternal fire is untrue? Certainly not. Does it also mean that eternal fire means annihilation? Not so. Consider Matthew 10:15 which talks about the fate of those that will reject the gospel.

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. KJV

Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor'rah than for that town. RSV

First thing we must note is that Jesus is here making a factual statement which by the way is also reported in Luke 10:12 and Mark 6:11.

There are two ways one might interprete this verse.

1. Sodom and Gomorrha will resurrect to be judged of which the punishment of the offending city will be greater.

or if you insist that Sodom and Gomorrha have been totally annihilated never to rise again, then you have option 2. Something worse than total annihilation will happen to the offending city (You can go figure out what it is)

There is much more to that eternal fire in Jude 7 than merely adapting it to fit your doctrine.

truthislight:

soul is the live that the man have as a result of the ignition of the boby by the spirit.

Without either the spirit or the body there is no life or soul.

The soul = the life.

When the spirit Goes out there is no life (the spirit goes out the soul dies) the body goes back to the ground.
psalm 146:4

the soul cannot exist independently on its Own.

Lol. You just copied me.

ijawkid:

Have you ever heard of the words sheol and hades before??

No. What about them?

truthislight:

actually, your limited knowledge of the bible is the reason for this comment



now hear God's truth:

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20).

Let me add another scripture so that you can leave behind this your idea that the ogboni and Eckanka and African traditional Religion all have in common

"He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish." (Psalm 49:19-20).

Now, this is what the bible teaches
leave satanic knowledge alone, man is mortal.
Peace

Wonderful lecture.
Your mastery of using scriptures selectively knows no bound.
If we are same with beasts, then beasts must be tripartite in nature as well.
Like I asked initially, do animals have spirit?

truthislight:

eternal is eternal = eternal death.

lol. You are beginning to sound like a comedian.
Cant one accept to be wrong when he is?

truthislight:

hell is the common grave of man that has been translate from hebrew sheol and greek Hedes.

Jesus went to hell as a righteous man.

All other rigtheous people went to hell and wait until they are resurected.

Hail is grave. Six feet.

You can do better.
Can someone be in hell and not be tormented?

truthislight:

let me still show it to you that animal and man have the same spirit.

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 3:19).

Learn well.

I've treated this?

ijawkid:

Now the question is:::::

In ecclesiastes 12:7 what is the" spirit" that returns back to God who gave it??

And please which bible chapte® and verse is this 2 ESDRAS 14 VS 35??

A LIL SOMETHING CALLED THE KING JAMES APOCRYPHA. PART OF THE BIBLE TAKEN OUT BETWEEN THE BOOK OF MALACHI AND MATTHEW IN THE 1800S . THE SPIRIT THAT RETURNS TO GOD ? THE INVISIBLE MAN

truthislight:
^^^

is that bible

YEZZUR. KING JAMES BIBLE 1611. NOW CALLED THE APOCRYPHA

truthislight:

the death is eternal death no resurrection.

That is what we are talking about.

You think whatever the bible says can be easily twisted as you are trying to do.
Stop misinterpreting the bible.
Why not call it anihilation instead of eternal death?
Can a thing representing an absence be eternal?

Reyginus: You can do better.
Can someone be in hell and not be tormented?

Was Jesus tormented in Hell??

Since when ever you hear the word Hell,torment always runs through your hellish mind...lol.....

truthislight:

i dont understand you, that place is talking about the grave and unconsciousness, all worries are gone, the brain is dead the man is dead, none existance. Psalm 146:4.

Its as though they are sleeping with their mind at ease.

READ IT WELL SIR. IT IS TALKING ABOUT THE RESTING SPIRIT IN DEATH. MATTER OF FACT, AND I AM NOT USUALLY STUMPED FOR SCRIPTURES BUT I CANT LOCATE THIS PARTICULAR SCRIPTURE, HOWEVER I WILL KEEP TRYING. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS THERE IS A PLACE WHERE THE SOULS OF THE DEAD ARE HOUSED AND AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER IT. THESE SOULS ( SPIRITS ) ARE SLEEPING AND WAITING FOR THEIR NEXT DEPLOYMENT TO EARTH. I WILL LOOK FOR THAT SCRIPTURE

ijawkid:

Was Jesus tormented in Hell??

Since when ever you hear the word Hell,torment always runs through your hellish mind...lol.....

Lolol. How can you compare the son of God with mere mortals?
He is not subject to the laws of hell.

Reyginus: Wonderful lecture.
Your mastery of using scriptures selectively knows no bound.
If we are same with beasts, that beasts must be tripartite in nature as well.
Like I asked initially, do animals have spirit?

Mr Reyginus where is your spirit right now as we speak??.......

ijawkid:

Mr Reyginus where is your spirit right now as we speak??.......

Within. Yours?

ijawkid:

Was Jesus tormented in Hell??

Since when ever you hear the word Hell,torment always runs through your hellish mind...lol.....

WHAT IT DO BRAH ? TRUST ALL IS WELL. FUNNY COMMENT

Reyginus: Lolol. How can you compare the son of God with mere mortals?
He is not subject to the laws of hell.

Lol....now I got you....

Jesus was flesh and blood in order for his death to be sacrificial.....

Jesus was put to death in the flesh......and Jesus spent 3 good days in HELL just like every human would.....

If you always think HELL is a place of torment,then be ready to agree that Jesus was tormented in Hell.....

The KJV is what has landed each and every one in this wahala...

That's why I asked you if you are familiar with words like sheol and hades....those were the words that the KJV transliterated as HELL.......

We have read from revelation that both HELL(grave) which Jesus went to and death were thrown into the lake of fire.......

sheol and hades are the greek and hebrew words used in the scriptures,not HELL.....

Reyginus: Within. Yours?

Oh its within you??

And what is it doing??is it a seperate part of you that is you??

Its waiting to escape and rove about after you return to the ground abi??

SMH!!!!.......