ijawkid:

Yeah that is what HELL is....(literal grave).....

This defeats the tripartite nature of man.
For clarity you can tell me what part of man stays in the grave?
If its the body, why? if the spirit, can a spirit be corporeal? If the soul, how?

ijawkid:

Lol......

Stay of that wine...I thought your whole mouth had been cut off and thrown into gehenna....lol..

I've got orange juice for YA......

We are aLl here to learn my bro......

i didnt get the wine eventually lol

ijawkid:

And verse 14 tells you it is the second death.....DEATH!!!!!!!!.....

If satan does not die then God lied to us.....

I have shown from other scriptures to show explicitly what eternal fire symbolizes....but you are closing your eyes to it....

DEATH and HELL itself will be thrown into that same lake of fire that satan is......

I want you to tell me how you would seperate the purnishment of"" death and hell" from satan and his cohorts there in the lake of fire.........

..........

Now I'll tell you this::::......what ever is the fate of ""death and hell"" would also be the same with satan and his cohorts....

Because they are all occupants in that LAKE of fire......

Reading Revelations 20, there is one thing we know for sure that will happen to the false prophet, the antichrist and the devil; they will be tormented forever.
Next to join them in the lake of fire are death and hades. We are told that the the state of being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.
I hold that Revelations personifies death and hades (my understanding is that you don't think they are personified but rather you interpret it as the concept of death itself being annihilated)
After that, people whose names are not written in the book of life get thrown in lake and experience the second death too. If you hold that death does not exist anymore, how do these people now die? (this should be a pointer to you that the definition of the second death cannot be the same as what you nominally know as dying).
If the devil is to be tormented forever, I see no reason why sinners who the bible makes it clear that they will share the same inheritance with him will somehow become exempt from his suffering.
My point is simple. The second death is defined as eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Ask yourself: Why would Jesus hint at suffering after physical death at all if the notion is entirely false?

ijawkid:
I want you to go back and check out the greek word that was rendered HELL fire in the KJV.......

And let's discuss it......

Please quote a particular verse and I'll try and find the Greek of it.

Reyginus: This defeats the tripartite nature of man.
For clarity you can tell me what part of man stays in the grave?
If its the body, why? if the spirit, can a spirit be corporeal? If the soul, how?

And herein lies the foundation of your error.

Man is not a tripartite being.

Man is Body with a spirit or the breath of God and = Soul a living SOUL.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul - Genesis 2:7

frosbel:

You totally miss the whole point of the death of Christ, he came to save us from SIN and it's consequence which is DEATH not eternal torment.

If our punishment was eternal torment then Jesus did not take this punishment for us. Our punishment is death and this is why Jesus came to defeat death , sin and the power behind these vices.

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil - Hebrews 2:14

i wonder who is missing the point here. According to scripture unless a man accepts Christ and turns from his old ways, he is doomed to be condemned with the devil with unquenchable fire in a place where there is gnashing of teeth and the likes. Physical death is for all men but spiritual death(separation from God) is as a result of adams sin. If a man refuses to accept Christ, he is spiritually dead but his punishment is not until God comes to judge the world and recompense every man according to his deeds.

frosbel:

And herein lies the foundation of your error.

Man is not a tripartite being.

Man is Body with a spirit or the breath of God and = Soul a living SOUL.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul - Genesis 2:7

AND TO BACK YOU UP ON THAT > JOB 27 VS 3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

frosbel:

sorry dear bro but may I say Fail !!

fail- hahahaha according to whom?

Mckybarf: i wonder who is missing the point here. According to scripture unless a man accepts Christ and turns from his old ways, he is doomed to be condemned with the devil with unquenchable fire in a place where there is gnashing of teeth and the likes. Physical death is for all men but spiritual death(separation from God) is as a result of adams sin. If a man refuses to accept Christ, he is spiritually dead but his punishment is not until God comes to judge the world and recompense every man according to his deeds.

There are two types of death.

Spiritual death happens when we are alive and alienated from the life of GOD and then follows physical death.

ADAM's sin brought in death.

Stop following tradition , follow truth, the truth is always almost in the minority.

Mr_Anony:
It is good that we are working towards the same thing. What we are divided on is what it means to "perish" as shown in scripture.


Unfortunately the other verses prove no such thing. They talk about a destruction yes and the wicked being cut-off yes but what is clear also and very vivid is the depiction of conscious suffering for the wicked. You can't just airbrush that part out.



As I said to frosbel, I don't necessarily hold that the story is literal. All I am pointing you to is the message of the story. Remember, a parable is an analogy. The aim is to use a simple story to illustrate a greater truth.

The real questions here are: What is the message of that story? Why would Jesus go through the trouble of describing the sinner experiencing pain if in reality, the sinner will merely cease to exist? Why would Jesus use a false condition to illustrate a greater truth? These are the questions we must consider

It's you that brought up this parable and have failed to explain it.

The rich man in the parable stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him.

Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God's Son.

The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Yahweh, the heavenly father.

At the same time, the false religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ's followers exposed their evil works.
So you see, the parable does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.

Please read from verse 14 and take note of Jesus primary audience.



Please go to www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna befor reading the following.

In the Hebrew Scriptures Gehenna is "the valley Hinnom." Remember, Hinnom was the name of the valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the Israelites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time, good King Josiah had this valley made unfit to be used for such a horrible practice.

"And he defiled Topheth , which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom , that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech" - 2 Kings 23:10 KJV

During the time Jesus was on earth Gehenna was Jerusalem's garbage dump. Fires were kept burning there by the adding of brimstone (sulfur) to burn up the garbage. Smith's Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 1, explains: "It became the common lay-stall [garbage dump] of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." No live creatures, however, were cast there.

Knowing about their city's garbage dump, Jerusalem's inhabitants understood what Jesus meant when he told the wicked religious leaders: "Ye serpents , ye generation of vipers , how can ye escape the damnation of hell (Gehenna)?" - Matthew 23:33 KJV

Jesus plainly did not mean that those religious leaders would be tormented. Why, when the Israelites were burning their children alive in that valley, God said that to do such a horrible thing had never come up into his heart!

"And they have built the high places of Tophet , which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom , to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire ; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart ". - Jeremiah 7:31 KJV

So it was clear that Jesus was using Gehenna as a fitting symbol of complete and everlasting destruction. KJV uses the word "Hell"

Jesus meant that those wicked religious leaders were not worthy of a resurrection. Those listening to Jesus could understand that those going to Gehenna, like so much garbage, would be destroyed forever.

Can you explain Jude 7?

obadiah777: AND TO BACK YOU UP ON THAT > JOB 27 VS 3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

thanks Bro.

These so called teachers are actually errormongers, they have no stamina or regard for the truth , they are simply replicating the church Babylonian system's tradition.

frosbel:

thanks Bro.

These so called teachers are actually errormongers, they have no stamina or regard for the truth , they are simply replicating the church Babylonian system's tradition.

SCRIPTURE DO SAY THE RACE IS NOT FOR THE SWIFT. THEY WILL GET THERE SOON ENOUGH

Mr_Anony:
Reading Revelations 20, there is one thing we know for sure that will happen to the false prophet, the antichrist and the devil; they will be tormented forever.
Next to join them in the lake of fire are death and hades. We are told that the the state of being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.
I hold that Revelations personifies death and hades (my understanding is that you don't think they are personified but rather you interpret it as the concept of death itself being annihilated)
After that, people whose names are not written in the book of life get thrown in lake and experience the second death too. If you hold that death does not exist anymore, how do these people now die? (this should be a pointer to you that the definition of the second death cannot be the same as what you nominally know as dying).
If the devil is to be tormented forever, I see no reason why sinners who the bible makes it clear that they will share the same inheritance with him will somehow become exempt from his suffering.
My point is simple. The second death is defined as eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Ask yourself: Why would Jesus hint at suffering after physical death at all if the notion is entirely false?


Please quote a particular verse and I'll try and find the Greek of it.

How on earth would you tell me death and Hell are personified??

How else do you think the last enemy ""DEATH"" would be brought to nothing if not being thrown in the lake of Fire..??

Can you please juxtapose revelation 20:14 where"" death"" is said to be thrown into the lake of fire and revelation 21:4 where we are told that ""Death"" would be no more??

Let's read revelation 21:4...
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their
eyes; and there shall be no more"" death"",
neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there
be any more pain: for the former things are
passed away.

.....

Also compare 1 corinthians 15:26..
American King James Version
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
""death"".


......
For you to say"" death"" is personified and so would be tormented literally alongside satan and his cohorts forever would be the greatest lie ever told.....that bible you are holding never supports your view.....

If you had noticed death and hades are the last of Gods enemies.......

Revelation 20 clearly shows that ""death and hades"" were the last enemies to be thrown into the lake of fire....satan even was thrown into the lake of fire before death...death and hades was the last......that agrees with 1 corinthians 15:26 that calls ""death"" the last enemy.....

And we all know from 1 corinthians 15:26 what the fate of ""death"" is.....total destruction...

Anything or anybody that is thrown into the lake of fire faces complete ""destruction""......

Now thats the point you have to understand....

For you to be dodging this lucid truth by personifying death has got me worried......

I think you should read 1 corinthians 15:24-28 critically,it would help you a lot.....

If you would understand that ""death"" is the last of Gods enemy,then you wouldn't have to worry about how every other thing that would be thrown into the lake of fire would experience death and total destruction....

DEATH is last on the list of things/persons to face destruction.....

Mr anony embrace truth...its staring right at you......

Mckybarf: i wonder who is missing the point here. According to scripture unless a man accepts Christ and turns from his old ways, he is doomed to be condemned with the devil with unquenchable fire in a place where there is gnashing of teeth and the likes. Physical death is for all men but spiritual death(separation from God) is as a result of adams sin. If a man refuses to accept Christ, he is spiritually dead but his punishment is not until God comes to judge the world and recompense every man according to his deeds.

Guy, I don't understand you. In other words, do you mean if Adam did not sin all men would still be subject to physical death but remain alive spiritually?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]
Reading Revelations 20, there is one thing we know for sure that will happen to the false prophet, the antichrist and the devil; they will be tormented forever.

Okay , let's play your game.

Revelation 14:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


If forever is literal in this passage the following also applies :


1. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

But Revelation 22 says there will be no more night .

" And night shall be no more; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they shall reign for ever and ever." - Revelation 22:5


But if you say the wicked will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, then this cannot be HELL because in HELL there is no light only darkness.





2. They will be tormented in the presence of the angels forever and ever.

So the angels of GOD ( God forbid ) will be in HELL watching SATAN and the wretches of mankind burning for all eternity. Mind you there is no escape for the angels of GOD , they must keep watching the wicked burn forever and ever and ever.



3. Also our LORD will be watching the wicked burn for all eternity non stop, but how can this be seeing that the wicked will be in an outer darkness or hell ?


Oh, by the way Ezekiel 28 quite vividly portrays the end of SATAN, you seem to not want to address this chapter, could it be that you are afraid of the truth.

Mate tradition has got you stumped big time and you don't even know it.

Freksy:

Guy, I don't understand you. In other words, do you mean if Adam did not sin all men would still be subject to physical death but remain alive spiritually?

SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT BUT LET ME ADD IN THAT THEY WOULD LIVE TO A RIPE OLD AGE OF ABOUT 1000 BEFORE THEY DIE PHYSICALLY. KINDA LIKE METHUSELLAH AS OLD AS TREES

frosbel:

And herein lies the foundation of your error.

Man is not a tripartite being.

Man is Body with a spirit or the breath of God and = Soul a living SOUL.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul - Genesis 2:7

I see fact where you see error.
Sir, can you help me with 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

Freksy:

Guy, I don't understand you. In other words, do you mean if Adam did not sin all men would still be subject to physical death but remain alive spiritually?

A very good sweet question......

They forget adam died both ways...

Both physically and spiritually....

In all adam ""DIED""

Ceased to exist.....

ijawkid:

A very good sweet question......

They forget adam died both ways...

Both physically and spiritually....

In all adam ""DIED""

Ceased to exist.....

*PUFF* JUST VANISH INTO THIN AIR LIKE DAT ? EVEN PROFESSOR PELLER CANNOT PULL THAT KIND OF TRICK MY BROTHER

Reyginus: I see fact where you see error.
Sir, can you help me with 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

indeed I will, but help me with Genesis 2:7 first .

obadiah777: *PUFF* JUST VANISH INTO THIN AIR LIKE DAT ? EVEN PROFESSOR PELLER CANNOT PULL THAT KIND OF TRICK MY BROTHER

Lol....

Dust he was and to dust he did return.....

Adam is nothing else but dust.....

PERSONALLY, AND I KNOW ITS NOT A POPULAR ANGLE BUT I THINK
1-THE BODY IS MORTAL
2-THE SPIRIT IS IMMORTAL
3-SPIRITS GET RECYCLED INTO NEW BODYS PERIODICALLY
4-LAKE OF FIRE IS A CONDITION YOU ARE PUT INTO ON EARTH WHERE YOU PAY FOR YOUR SIN ALSO CALLED SECOND DEATH. ITS NON REDEEMABLE SUFFERING FOR A LONG TIME
5-HELL IS THE GRAVE
6-HEAVEN IS RULERSHIP ON EARTH

ijawkid:

Lol....

Dust he was and to dust he did return.....

Adam is nothing else but dust.....

VERY TRUE. HOWEVER THE SPIRIT IS ENERGY. ENERGY CANT BE DESTROYED.

frosbel:

indeed I will, but help me with Genesis 2:7 first .

lol.
By the way, am not working with the bible versions prescribed for this discussion.
Do me the favour of quoting them out.
Also, let's not end up derailing.

obadiah777: VERY TRUE. HOWEVER THE SPIRIT IS ENERGY. ENERGY CANT BE DESTROYED.

That energy goes back to God who is the source of it.....:-)

frosbel:


[size=13pt]Jesus Christ came to save us from DEATH not ETERNAL Torment.[/size]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

Proverbs 11:19 The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Romans 1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


For the eternal torment cheer leaders, as horrible as DEATH is and as horrible as the Lake of Fire is , they are not satisfied. It has to be torment for trillions of years.

incase u dont know eternal doesnt mean trillions of years, it actually is closer to timelessness, a state without d burden of time.

Will anyone want to worship a GOD who will torture his creatures made in his own image for Trillions and Trillions of years after which the punishment is only just starting. God's creatures being literally fried for ever and ever and ever and ever at over 1000 degrees centigrade.

d same way atheist say there is no God because there is suffering. Sorry this isnt a point.

Is it not true to say that only a SADIST in the person of SATAN will try to malign the character of GOD as he has done for eons ?

Is the catholic church not the conduit through which all these false doctrines flow into the world and is the Pope not Satan's mouth piece ?

ur arguement alway goes back to d pope and the catholic church, very soon u will deny christ just becos d pope accepts him

How sicker can it get people.

Is Hitler more righteous than GOD, is Genghis Khan more righteousness than GOD , is Stalin more righteous than GOD.

can u define righteousness? Since wen did justice become unrighteous?

Why are people so proudly and arrogantly hell bent on misrepresenting the character of GOD.

What father will beat his children for weeks and weeks non-stop because they stole a loave of bread ?
Get real , stick to the bible
True sequence of events ;
1. Man dies and is no more
2. Resurrection
3. Righteous get new bodies
4. wicked judged and thrown into the lake of fire with hades and death itself
5. wicked experience punishment in degrees
6. wicked perish forever
7. No more death
8. God's new everlasting kingdom is ushered in
9. The saints enjoy bliss forever and ever
10.the wicked are no more

ha! Ur number 5, so they will suffer but only in time and later be distroyed, wow

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death., neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

According to the scripture above, there will be no more death, how can there be no more death when people are still 'DYING' the second death in the lake of fire.
Madness !!!

ur aim here is to play on emotions, hey God is too loving to let pipo suffer for trillions of years, d same way d atheist and agnostics say it is imposible for a loving God to permit suffering in this world. I've got news for u guyz eternal punishment is as real as temporal suffering, airbrushing it wont help.

Mr_Anony:
Reading Revelations 20, there is one thing we know for sure that will happen to the false prophet, the antichrist and the devil; they will be tormented forever.
Next to join them in the lake of fire are death and hades. We are told that the the state of being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.
I hold that Revelations personifies death and hades (my understanding is that you don't think they are personified but rather you interpret it as the concept of death itself being annihilated)
After that, people whose names are not written in the book of life get thrown in lake and experience the second death too. If you hold that death does not exist anymore, how do these people now die? (this should be a pointer to you that the definition of the second death cannot be the same as what you nominally know as dying).
If the devil is to be tormented forever, I see no reason why sinners who the bible makes it clear that they will share the same inheritance with him will somehow become exempt from his suffering.
My point is simple. The second death is defined as eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Ask yourself: Why would Jesus hint at suffering after physical death at all if the notion is entirely false?


Please quote a particular verse and I'll try and find the Greek of it.

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them : and they were judged every man according to their works . 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire . This is the second death . 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" . Rev. 20:13-15 KJV

My questions: if hell is really a place of torment, why would those in it come back for judgement? On what basis were they sent to hell in the first place?

Its usage in verse 13 perfectly fit that of a grave - the place for the deads. Delivering up of people from it is nothing, but resurrection of the deads from it for judgement.

Ubenedictus: incase u dont know eternal doesnt mean trillions of years, it actually is closer to timelessness, a state without d burden of time.

d same way atheist say there is no God because there is suffering. Sorry this isnt a point.

ur arguement alway goes back to d pope and the catholic church, very soon u will deny christ just becos d pope accepts him

can u define righteousness? Since wen did justice become unrighteous?

ha! Ur number 5, so they will suffer but only in time and later be distroyed, wow

ur aim here is to play on emotions, hey God is too loving to let pipo suffer for trillions of years, d same way d atheist and agnostics say it is imposible for a loving God to permit suffering in this world. I've got news for u guyz eternal punishment is as real as temporal suffering, airbrushing it wont help.

When I say that a lot of churches are the daughters of that HARLOT Pagan catholic church I get attacked.

Is it not quite frightening that all these false doctrines propagated by your POPE and his ROMAN church for over a 1000 years are very much adopted by many protestant churches.

Protestant churches making a pact with SATAN and conforming to their Babylonian doctrines ?

ijawkid:

That energy goes back to God who is the source of it.....:-)

VERY TRUE. ECCLESISTES 12 VS 7. HOWEVER THE ENERGY IS NOT TRANSFORMED. WATCH THIS

2 ESDRAS 14 VS 35 For after death shall the judgment come, when we shall live again: and then shall the names of the righteous be manifest, and the works of the ungodly shall be declared. AFTER DEATH > JUDGEMENT > THEN YOU LIVE AGAIN. MY POINT IS, AND I RESPECT YOUR OPINION, BUT I DONT THINK SPIRITS EVER GET COMPLETELY DESTROYED. SPIRITS ARE HUMANS BUT WITHOUT THE BODY. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE DO THEY GET DESTROYED. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS SPIRITS ARE TOTALLY ANNIHILATED AFTER SECOND DEATH.

frosbel:

There are two types of death.

Spiritual death happens when we are alive and alienated from the life of GOD and then follows physical death.

ADAM's sin brought in death.

Stop following tradition , follow truth, the truth is always almost in the minority.

since when did "in the minority" become irrefutable proof of "the truth"?

AND TRUTHISLIGHT SAYS THE BODY IS THE MAN AND YOU ARE POWERED BY SOME ELECTRICITY LOL. WELL THIS PROVES YOUR THEORY IS A WASH. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR SPIRIT WHEN YOU ARE DEAD

JOB 3 VS 17 There the wicked cease from turmoil,
and there the weary are at rest.
18 Captives also enjoy their ease;
they no longer hear the slave driver’s shout.
19 The small and the great are there,
and the slaves are freed from their owners. YOUR PERSONALITY IS STILL INTACT WHILE YOUR SPIRIT IS STILL WHOLESOME. YOU ARE JUST RESTING. THOSE VERSES PROVE SPIRITS ARE HUMANS WITHOUT THE BODY

frosbel:

When I say that a lot of churches are the daughters of that HARLOT Pagan catholic church I get attacked.

Is it not quite frightening that all these false doctrines propagated by your POPE and his ROMAN church for over a 1000 years are very much adopted by many protestant churches.

Protestant churches making a pact with SATAN and conforming to their Babylonian doctrines ?

i saw u screaming "ROMAN", "PAGAN". Since u have problem with rome do u also have problem with alexandria, constantinople, antioch, egypt,etc the list is very long, all the ancient churches believe in an eternal hell, all d orthodox and orientals, mind u they arent protestants. So the next time you want to scream about rome be careful becos i may compel u one day to add all the ancient churches so it will be clear to everyone that u have a teaching that has no basis in christian theology. That mean u and ur fellows invented it.

Mr_Anony:
As I keep reminding you, I have never said that the parable is literal. My point is that names or no names doesn't make the narrative any more or less literal.

You seem very happy to argue over not-so-relevant details of the story, the more important question which you seem very eager to avoid is: What is the message of the story? Why would Jesus use a false condition to Illustrate a truth?

jesus did not used any false conditions at all.

He knew what fire signifies = everlasting death.

Meaning everlasting separation from God the source of life.

He was not talking about temporary Adamic death but death without resurrection and fire is the right symbol for it.