@ elampiro

You think Benedict XVI is the man of God and Francis, the agent of satan.

If that were true, he would frankly say or let us know that Francis is an agent of satan.

It seems that elampiro knows more than Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI of what is happening at the Vatican]

italo: @ elampiro

You think Benedict XVI is the man of God and Francis, the agent of satan.

If that were true, he would frankly say or let us know that Francis is an agent of satan.

It seems that elampiro knows more than Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI of what is happening at the Vatican]

Why are you repeating your previous post?

I reserve any further comment for now.

elampiro:

Why are you repeating your previous post?

I reserve any further comment for now.

Because you ignored it and started again to try to tell me that Pope Francis is an agent of satan. A point you have got across to me a million times.

@ Elampiro, I am appalled that you'd bring in a blogger's write up to defend your position against the Pope. As a child of the church, it will be enough disturbances to harbour such a thought, as to propel you towards better proof and more insightful and balanced judgement on the situation. Could you supply me with where your writer was defending the Pope as you claimed, or have you not noticed his obvious dislike for Jesuits in his earlier posts? We need to be very careful when we actually delve into issues that have far reaching implications such as questioning the ability of Jesus to protect his Church, or making a subtle mockery of a Pope emeritus. An example is the question Italo has been asking you, that question is deep; and it is based on your assertion that it arose. You as a catholic must have heard ridiculous condemnations against the catholic faith, which is born out of partial or complete ignorance, you must have had a good laugh at such times or pity the proponent. Yet it doesn't mean the unfortunate individual is not convinced of his being on the right...just like you. What that blogger did was to ridicule every avenue of defense and not to disprove it. It's such a clear example of the saying, “for he that does not believe; no explanation is possible...". His predecessor resigned voluntarily just like...at least an earlier Pope, He was elected just like other Popes, and he is authentic, for his election has violated no rule. In the church will always be the "Pharisees (keepers of the letters of the law), the sinners (breakers of the law) and the saints (fulfilling the law by their life). The good shepherd has a duty to lead all gently unto the right path, just like Christ did. Do read again the CCC on homosexuality. We ought to pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to so weeds in the garden".

Syncan: @ Elampiro, I am appalled that you'd bring in a blogger's write up to defend your position against the Pope. As a child of the church, it will be enough disturbances to harbour such a thought, as to propel you towards better proof and more insightful and balanced judgement on the situation. Could you supply me with where your writer was defending the Pope as you claimed, or have you not noticed his obvious dislike for Jesuits in his earlier posts? We need to be very careful when we actually delve into issues that have far reaching implications such as questioning the ability of Jesus to protect his Church, or making a subtle mockery of a Pope emeritus. An example is the question Italo has been asking you, that question is deep; and it is based on your assertion that it arose. You as a catholic must have heard ridiculous condemnations against the catholic faith, which is born out of partial or complete ignorance, you must have had a good laugh at such times or pity the proponent. Yet it doesn't mean the unfortunate individual is not convinced of his being on the right...just like you. What that blogger did was to ridicule every avenue of defense and not to disprove it. It's such a clear example of the saying, “for he that does not believe; no explanation is possible...". His predecessor resigned voluntarily just like...at least an earlier Pope, He was elected just like other Popes, and he is authentic, for his election has violated no rule. In the church will always be the "Pharisees (keepers of the letters of the law), the sinners (breakers of the law) and the saints (fulfilling the law by their life). The good shepherd has a duty to lead all gently unto the right path, just like Christ did. Do read again the CCC on homosexuality. We ought to pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to so weeds in the garden".

1. You aren't telling me anything new. I know how the non catholics have been ridiculing the church. But my argument is from a different angle.

2. Italo's question is fully understood by me. Should I answer it sincerely, there will be an irrecoverable earthquake. I wanted the future to speak for itself, but gradually you guys are pushing me.

3. Which blogger did I quote. I haven't quoted any blogger. I only posted comments from Vatican officials and Pope Benedict from reputable international news media.

3. The difference between Pope Benedict's election and that of Pope Francis is that in the former, a death of a Pope gave birth to another. Marian and Jesus end time messages to catholic seers in the last 100 years till now have told us that this would happen. Even now the current messages correctly stated exactly what is happening now. I have told you guys that I want to keep this low for now.

See below comment by a Cardinal and pay attention to the last paragraph.



Catholics have been silent for too long in the face of the deceit of the homosexual agenda – Cardinal Raymond Burke

By Deacon Nick Donnelly, on September 27th, 2013

Cardinal Raymond Burke, the Church’s top canon lawyer and prefect for the Apostolic Signatura, has said that Catholics have been silent for far too long in the face of the deceit of the homosexual agenda out of fear of political correctness.

The cardinal also urged the faithful to practice “much prayer and fasting” to counter the growing threat of the homosexual agenda.

“The alarming rapidity of the realization of the homosexual agenda ought to awaken all of us and frighten us with regard to the future of our nation,” he said. “This is a work of deceit, a lie about the most fundamental aspect of our human nature, our human sexuality, which after life itself defines us. There is only one place these types of lies come from, namely Satan. It is a diabolical situation which is aimed at destroying individuals, families, and eventually our nation.”

“The fact that these kinds of ‘arrangements’ are made legal is a manifestation of a culture of death, of an anti- life and anti- family culture which has existed in our nation now for some time,” he said.

Catholics have not engaged the battle for the family effectively, he said, “because we have not been taught our Catholic Faith, especially in the depth needed to address these grave evils of our time.”

“This is a failure of catechesis both of children and young people that has been going on for fifty years,” he continued. “It is being addressed, but it needs much more radical attention.”

“There is far too much silence — people do not want to talk about it because the topic is not ‘politically correct,’” he added. “But we cannot be silent any longer or we will find ourselves in a situation that will be very difficult to reverse.”

The Cardinal said Catholics risk facing increasing persecution, such as the inability to even work in fields like education and healthcare, if the government remains on its present course.

“If the present government, which can be described in no other way than totalitarian, is not held back from the course it is on, these persecutions will follow,” he said. “It will not be possible for Catholics to exercise most of the normal human services whether in health care, education, or social welfare because in conscience they will no longer be able to do what the government demands: to cooperate in grave moral evil. We are heading in that direction and even see it now.”

He urged Americans to take the example of France, where the people have reacted strongly to government imposition of same-sex “marriage.” “The French people are out on the streets in protest — one demonstration had upwards of two million people,” he said. “There has arisen in France among the people the will to resist the government and that is what we need in this country.”

Asked how Catholics can reconcile the fact that they are told not to vote for political candidates who support grave intrinsic evils, while these same politicians are given honors at Catholic universities and public Catholic funerals, he said, “You cannot reconcile it.”

“It is a contradiction, it is wrong, it is a scandal, and it must stop!” he said. “We live in a culture with a false sense of dialogue — which has also crept into the Church — where we pretend to dialogue about open and egregious violations of the moral law.”

“Can we believe it is permissible to recognize publicly people who support open and egregious violations, and then act surprised if someone is scandalized by it?”

Protect the Pope comment: It’s a nonsense for people to say that Catholics have focused too much on the great moral evils of our time such as abortion and gay marriage and sex, when in fact as a result of the collapse of catechesis since Vatican II, the majority of Catholics have been reduced to silence. In the face of the political push to enshrine gay marriage and the normalisation of deviancy, and the Silent Holocause of 1.7 billion babies killed through abortion since the 1970′s Catholics must shout from the roof tops and take to the streets.
http://protectthepope.com/?p=8434

elampiro:

3. The difference between Pope Benedict's election and that of Pope Francis is that in the former, a death of a Pope gave birth to another. Marian and Jesus end time messages to catholic seers in the last 100 years till now have told us that this would happen. Even now the current messages correctly stated exactly what is happening now. I have told you guys that I want to keep this low for now.

Before Pope Benedict XVI resignation, 5 popes have resigned and the world did not end after that. Pls give us a break with all the prophesies. If i collected a dollar for all the end time prophesies I have heard or read, I would own a Ferrari by now.

Paris-fran:

Before Pope Benedict XVI resignation, 5 popes have resigned and the world did not end after that. Pls give us a break with all the prophesies. If i collected a dollar for all the end time prophesies I have heard or read, I would own a Ferrari by now.

1. Yet some of these prophecies were approved by the church.

2. Were you there when those Popes resigned? Do you know under what circumstances they resigned? Do you know the true story? Are you are some resigned because there were two people laying claim to the throne?

elampiro:

1. You aren't telling me anything new. I know how the non catholics have been ridiculing the church. But my argument is from a different angle.

2. Italo's question is fully understood by me. Should I answer it sincerely, there will be an irrecoverable earthquake. I wanted the future to speak for itself, but gradually you guys are pushing me.

3. Which blogger did I quote. I haven't quoted any blogger. I only posted comments from Vatican officials and Pope Benedict from reputable international news media.

3. The difference between Pope Benedict's election and that of Pope Francis is that in the former, a death of a Pope gave birth to another. Marian and Jesus end time messages to catholic seers in the last 100 years till now have told us that this would happen. Even now the current messages correctly stated exactly what is happening now. I have told you guys that I want to keep this low for now.

1. Thats why you need better and more sound fact than the opinion of a blogger out of 2billion catholics

2. You do not sow a seed of doubt and expect to be left alone, if not to guide others aright, it is still a corporal work of mercy to enlighten the ignorance

3.Mundabor that you quoted is a blogger

4. It matters not if there was a death or not, the seat could be vacant by abdication, even Pope JP 11 was expected to resign, It is not unheard of. The last time it happened before Benedict xv1, the elected Pope was authentic, so why not Pope Francis. Which Current messages? The one i am following now says exactly opposite to what you're saying, be careful what you believe.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.


The above is the teaching of the catholic church which even the pope is bound to. You may want to tell me where he violated it. More so, the pope condemns gay lobbyists which is same with what Cardinal Burke was saying. As per the last paragraph you wanted us to take note of, that does not seem to be the words of the Cardinal but an input of the writer. the words of the cardinal are in quotation marks, do take note of that please. We ought to pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to so weeds in the garden".

elampiro:

1. Yet some of these prophecies were approved by the church.

2. Were you there when those Popes resigned? Do you know under what circumstances they resigned? Do you know the true story? Are you are some resigned because there were two people laying claim to the throne?

1.There is no prophecy approved by the church that supports your argument in any way.

2. So it is now our presence during the resignation that authenticates the event right? What is the story of Pope Benedict's Resignation apart from what He himself said. You want to insinuate that the shepherd abandoned his flock to the wolves, no bro, not at all. He left the drivers seat for someone who is "better prepared for the times", by his God, to lead the flock.

Syncan:

1. Thats why you need better and more sound fact than the opinion of a blogger out of 2billion catholics

2. You do not sow a seed of doubt and expect to be left alone, if not to guide others aright, it is still a corporal work of mercy to enlighten the ignorance

3.Mundabor that you quoted is a blogger

4. It matters not if there was a death or not, the seat could be vacant by abdication, even Pope JP 11 was expected to resign, It is not unheard of. The last time it happened before Benedict xv1, the elected Pope was authentic, so why not Pope Francis. Which Current messages? The one i am following now says exactly opposite to what you're saying, be careful what you believe.

1. Can you repost where I quoted a blogger? I can't see where I did.

2. Which visionary are you following? You also have to be careful not to swallow errors which are starting already. Go back to the prophecy of St Francis of Asisi, Lasalete, Garabadal, Fr Gobbi, etc and you will know that there will be a time of aposacy in the Vatican,

3. Pope Francis as cardinal Bergoglio was in support of Gay union in Argentina. Pope Francis said our sins are not committed by us but they are Jesus' sin. He is also trying to shut the mouth of priests from frequently speaking against homosexuality, abortion etc.

4. In several messages given to a certain visionary between 2011 and 2012, it was clearly stated that Pope Benedict would not die on the throne but would be plotted against in an underground move to resign. A lot were said and at that time I never thought could be possible. And at that time too, we were told the next Pope would be. seen to be very humble (false humility) cunning and greatly loved but he will not be from God. We were also told thayt he would be loved greatly by the circular world and seen to be a living saint. But he will be giving sign of what he intends to do until the time becomes ripe, then he will make major changes that will rock the church to its foundation. Very many will go with him in his new age teachings while the true catholics will retain the traditional teachings of the church.

I was shocked when Benedict announced his resignation, and the prophecy was fulfilled. When Pope Francis came in, the messages told us again how he will be working to undermine so many traditions which will insult God but many will be blind to these things for now.

One of those early signs he gave which many were blind to was the fact he ran away from the Vatican to wash the legs of men, women and people of other faith in a prison instead of legs of his apostles 'the priests'. He was already by that wicked gesture establishing the all inclusive church. He also kissed their legs as a sign of the new age religion that will be coming where humanism (worship of man, nature and things) will be taught instead of only venerating the cross as a sign of allegiance and worship of the crucified Lord. He refuses to sit on the throne (the chair of Peter) but instead in an excuse for humility, he sits on a white chair which some observant have said is in front of the Eucharist . I have not been able to verify where exactly that white chair is positioned whether truly in front of the Eucharist.
I just want to stop here. But consider this:
When we go to confession we say, ''bless me father for I have sinned, I attended confession last on.....these are my sins ........ For these sins and any other I cannot remember, I beg for forgiveness and penance. ''

But Pope Francis said Jesus has become the sinner for us such that when we go to confession it is not that we ask for forgiveness but we are only handling Jesus' sins back to Him. So we say in confession ''Jesus here are your sins... And I will sin again''

I stop here for now.

elampiro:

1. Can you repost where I quoted a blogger? I can't see where I did.

2. Which visionary are you following? You also have to be careful not to swallow errors which are starting already. Go back to the prophecy of St Francis of Asisi, Lasalete, Garabadal, Fr Gobbi, etc and you will know that there will be a time of aposacy in the Vatican,

3. Pope Francis as cardinal Bergoglio was in support of Gay union in Argentina. Pope Francis said when our sins are not committed by us but they are Jesus' sin. He is also trying to shut the mouth of priests from frequently speaking against homosexuality, abortion etc.

4. In several messages given to a certain visionary between 2011 and 2012, it was clearly stated that Pope Benedict would not die on the throne but would be plotted against in an underground move to resign. A lot were said and at that time I never thought could be possible. And at that time too, we were told the next Pope will be. seen to be very humble (false humility) cunning and greatly loved but he will not be from God. We were also told thayt he would be loved greatly by the circular world and seen to be a living saint. But he will be giving sign f what he intends to do until the time becomes ripe, then he will make major changes that will rock the church to it foundation. Very many will go with him in his new age teachings while the true catholics will retain the traditional teachings of the church.

I was shocked when Benedict announced his resignation, and the prophecy was fulfilled. When Pope Francis came in, the messages told us again how he will be working to undermine so many traditions which will insult God but many will be blind to these things for now.

One of those early signs he gave which many were blind to was the fact he ran away from the Vatican to wash the legs of men, women and people of other faith in a prison instead of legs of his apostles 'the priests'. He was already by that wicked gesture establishing the all inclusive church. He also kissed their legs as a sign of the new age religion that will be coming where humanism (worship of man, nature and things) will be taught instead of only venerating the cross as a sign of allegiance and worship of the crucified Lord. He refuses to sit on the throne (the chair of Peter) but instead in an excuse for humility, he sits on a white chair which some observant have said is in front of the Eucharist . I have not been able to verify where exactly that white chair is positioned whether truly in front of the Eucharist.
I just want to stop here. But consider this:
When we go to confession we say, ''bless me father for I have sinned, I attended confession last on.....these are my sins ........ For these sins and any other I cannot remember, I beg for forgiveness and penance. ''

But Pope Francis said Jesus has become the sinner for us such that when we go to confession it is not that we ask for forgiveness but we are only handling Jesus' sins back to Him. So we say in confession ''Jesus here are your sins... And I will sin again''

I stop here for now.

1. Here is your quote, it is from a blogger, Mundabor.

elampiro: @Italo, the writer of the article below has been a renowned defender of Pope Francis in several foreign religion platform. Now surprisingly, look at what he has written:

............................


Mundabor http://mundabor./2013/09/24/absurd-arguments/

2.Yes there will be a time of apostasy, but you should not cry wolf when there is none, lest you scatter the sheep.

3 Please be careful about your accusations, see below:

"When Bergoglio celebrated Mass at the Cathedral for the 2004 First National Government holiday, President Néstor Kirchner attended and heard Bergoglio request more political dialogue, reject intolerance, and criticize exhibitionism and strident announcements. Kirchner celebrated the national day elsewhere the following year and the Mass in the Cathedral was suspended.Kirchner considered Bergoglio as a political rival to the day he died in October 2010. Bergoglio's relations with Kirchner's widow and successor, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, have been similarly tense. In 2008, Bergoglio called for national reconciliation during disturbances in the country's agricultural regions, which the government interpreted as a support for anti-government demonstrators.The campaign to enact same-sex marriage legislation was a particularly tense period in their relations.

"In 2006, Bergoglio publicly opposed an attempt by the Argentine government to legalize some cases of abortion. In 2007, after the government intervened to allow an abortion for a mentally handicapped woman who had been raped, Bergoglio said that "in Argentina we have the death penalty. A child conceived by the rape of a mentally ill or retarded woman can be condemned to death."

"Pope Francis has affirmed Catholic teachings on sexual morality. He said that while homosexual acts were sinful, the homosexual orientation was not".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

I have shown you the teaching of the catholic church from the CCC, you may tell me how Pope Francis contradicts it.

4. Monsignor Esseff was a spiritual director to Mother Teresa of Calcutta, he is the spiritual director to a supposed visionary now, her message contradicts that of your unknown "internet" visionary. you may want to check that out too. http://www.locutions.org/. I must tell you that I do not hold such prophecies as "must happen"...since Jonah's experience.


He washed the feet of lay men and women...bla bla bla, when Jesus commanded the apostles to serve, was it to their priests or to all? The washing of feet is just symbolic and his actions is simply a broader depicting of the command, he went a notch further. He kissed their feet... for Gods sake, did you read anything about St. Francis of Assisi at all? You really should get your fact straight before indulging in attacking such esteem an office holder. The chair of St.Peter...You are not even sure of what you're saying.

Please tell me where Pope Francis made the above as claimed by you, until then, We ought to pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to sow weeds in the garden".

Syncan:


1. Here is your quote, it is from a blogger, Mundabor.



2.Yes there will be a time of apostasy, but you should not cry wolf when there is none, lest you scatter the sheep.

3 Please be careful about your accusations, see below:

"When Bergoglio celebrated Mass at the Cathedral for the 2004 First National Government holiday, President Néstor Kirchner attended and heard Bergoglio request more political dialogue, reject intolerance, and criticize exhibitionism and strident announcements. Kirchner celebrated the national day elsewhere the following year and the Mass in the Cathedral was suspended.Kirchner considered Bergoglio as a political rival to the day he died in October 2010. Bergoglio's relations with Kirchner's widow and successor, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, have been similarly tense. In 2008, Bergoglio called for national reconciliation during disturbances in the country's agricultural regions, which the government interpreted as a support for anti-government demonstrators.The campaign to enact same-sex marriage legislation was a particularly tense period in their relations.

"In 2006, Bergoglio publicly opposed an attempt by the Argentine government to legalize some cases of abortion. In 2007, after the government intervened to allow an abortion for a mentally handicapped woman who had been raped, Bergoglio said that "in Argentina we have the death penalty. A child conceived by the rape of a mentally ill or retarded woman can be condemned to death."

"Pope Francis has affirmed Catholic teachings on sexual morality. He said that while homosexual acts were sinful, the homosexual orientation was not".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

I have shown you the teaching of the catholic church from the CCC, you may tell me how Pope Francis contradicts it.

4. Monsignor Esseff was a spiritual director to Mother Teresa of Calcutta, he is the spiritual director to a supposed visionary now, her message contradicts that of your unknown "internet" visionary. you may want to check that out too. http://www.locutions.org/. I must tell you that I do not hold such prophecies as "must happen"...since Jonah's experience.


He washed the feet of lay men and women...bla bla bla, when Jesus commanded the apostles to serve, was it to their priests or to all? The washing of feet is just symbolic and his actions is simply a broader depicting of the command, he went a notch further. He kissed their feet... for Gods sake, did you read anything about St. Francis of Assisi at all? You really should get your fact straight before indulging in attacking such esteem an office holder. The chair of St.Peter...You are not even sure of what you're saying.

Please tell me where Pope Francis made the above as claimed by you, until then, We ought to pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to sow weeds in the garden".

1. You said the sheep should not be scattered before the time. This is exactly why I have so far refrained from publishing certain things that should have surprised you. Should I do that, I trust nairalanders and some Nigerians who are spiritually immature. But I have reserve some core evidence for the future.

2. I have known that locution sight for ever. I reserve my comment. I have read it for years, including John Leary the most popular catholic prophet and others.

3. The blogger you quoted is the least of the things I have submitted about reactions to the Pope's comment. You obviously jumped into the argument half way. Had you followed the argument from the other thread where Pope Francis said atheist are saved by their conscience, you should have seen the trail of this argument and the references and links I have earlier provided.

4. Hold, let me send you some links.

1. Do you know that as Cardinal Bergoglio, Pope Francis surppoted gay union in Argentina?

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/20/world/americas/argentina-pope-civil-unions/index.htm


2. When we go to confession, for example, it isn’t that we say our sin and God forgives us. No, not that! We look for Jesus Christ and say: 'This is your sin, and I will sin again'. And Jesus likes that, because it was his mission: to become the sinner for us, to liberate us. " -Pope Francis

http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-the-christian-life-proclaims-the-road-to-reco



3. See the confusion on ground already from the Pope's statements.

Priests Struggle To Interpret Pope's Quote On Homosexuality.
http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20130817-r.i.-priests-try-to-interpret-popes-remarks-on-gays.ece



4.
Lastly, Pope Francis comment being rejected or reversed by Vatican.
His first comment on atheist. He has boosted the atheists twice that they can make it without accepting God.

Catholic Church confirms atheists still go to hell, after Pope Francis suggests they might go to heaven

The Vatican has quickly clarified that atheists  - they believe - are still going to hell, despite Pope Francis appearing to say non-believers could be saved through Christ if they do good.

Vatican spokesman Rev. Thomas Rosica said people who know about the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”

In an unprepared speech on Wednesday, the Pope emphasised the importance of “doing good,” for all people.

According to a report from Vatican radio, he explained how upset Jesus’ disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good.

He said: “They complain, ‘If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good’. And Jesus corrects them: 'Do not hinder him', he says, 'let him do good.'”

The disciples, he said, “were a little intolerant,” thinking that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.”

He said: “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon. The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation.”

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catholic-church-confirms-atheists-still-go-to-hell-after-pope-francis-suggests-they-might-go-to-heaven-8634479.html


5. Review the above links/comments carefully. Above all there is something I don't want to discuss here till he makes more comments as these or when he makes changes to the teachings change.

What has Benedict the man of God said about all these things?

It seems Elampiro know much more about the Vatican than the Pope Emeritus.

Ah,@ Elampiro I thought you had something else to say, meanwhile I saw these from your link:

1. (a) An activist and a pastor say the pope told them he supported civil unions in Argentina - somebody said.... untrusted evidence

(b) Reports say the pope also pushed bishops to support the idea at a 2010 meeting - "CNN could not independently confirm the details of the Argentine bishops' meeting,..." (from your link)

(c) As archbishop of Buenos Aires, the pope was a vocal opponent to same-sex marriage - By their fruits ye shall know them

(d) The pope once called same-sex marriage "a destructive attack on God's plan" - Now you accuse him of propagating it


2. Take a look at this:

"I have read the Spanish version,and Italian.

I do not mean to offend by posting in Spanish,but it says very clearly that "This is yours,and I make you become sin again. And he likes that,because it has been his mission,become sin for us,to free us"


“Pero ¿qué es la reconciliación? Tomar a uno de esta parte, tomar a otro y hacer que estén unidos: no, esta es una parte pero no es... La verdadera reconciliación es que Dios, en Cristo, ha tomado nuestros pecados y Él se ha hecho pecado por nosotros. Y cando vamos a confesarnos, por ejemplo, no es que decimos el pecado y Dios nos perdona. No, ¡no es esto! Nosotros encontramos a Jesucristo y le decimos: ‘Esto es tuyo y yo te hago pecado otra vez. Y a Él le gusta eso, porque ha sido su misión: hacerse pecado por nosotros, para liberarnos.
Es la belleza y el “escándalo” de la redención que Jesús llevó a cabo dijo Francisco:"


In the Italian version,the phrase in question is even between inverted commas.
Maybe "make you become sin " can even be translated as "make you sin again" being sin here not a verb but a noun. Hope it clarifies

If anyone can read any of these languages,you will notice the difference.
Peace".

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=802790
http://www.news.va/es/news/el-cristi...ncia-la-de-cri

3. I have published for you a copy of the CCC on homosexuality, you and those confused are yet to tell me how the Pope's statement
contradicts it.

4. The Pope quoted scripture LK 9:50, Mk 9:40, Tell me the scripture is not correct. It doesn't matter what you infer or suggest it insinuates, He quoted scripture to support himself. Do good anyway and let the Holy spirit do His part...this is the message of the Pope. Do not underestimate the power of God to save whoever he so wishes.

5. Read carefully my submissions above and desist from undue alarm, rather pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to sow weeds in the garden".

elampiro:

1. You said the sheep should not be scattered before the time. This is exactly why I have so far refrained from publishing certain things that should have surprised you. Should I do that, I trust nairalanders and some Nigerians who are spiritually immature. But I have reserve some core evidence for the future.

2. I have known that locution sight for ever. I reserve my comment. I have read it for years, including John Leary the most popular catholic prophet and others.

3. The blogger you quoted is the least of the things I have submitted about reactions to the Pope's comment. You obviously jumped into the argument half way. Had you followed the argument from the other thread where Pope Francis said atheist are saved by their conscience, you should have seen the trail of this argument and the references and links I have earlier provided.

4. Hold, let me send you some links.

I shall leave 1 and 2 without a comment.

3. I read from the beginning of a thread; I comment on it, you make a submission on the thread; I react to it, now you accuse me to have "jumped into the argument halfway" because you made some posts in another (mutually exclusive) thread which you never referred to. I de bow for you o

4. I read your link and reverted as seen above.

I doubt that Elampiro knows that slander of such magnitude is a grave sin...and a grave sin separates a soul from God.

Syncan: Ah,@ Elampiro I thought you had something else to say, meanwhile I saw these from your link:

1. (a) An activist and a pastor say the pope told them he supported civil unions in Argentina - somebody said.... untrusted evidence

(b) Reports say the pope also pushed bishops to support the idea at a 2010 meeting - "CNN could not independently confirm the details of the Argentine bishops' meeting,..." (from your link)

(c) As archbishop of Buenos Aires, the pope was a vocal opponent to same-sex marriage - By their fruits ye shall know them

(d) The pope once called same-sex marriage "a destructive attack on God's plan" - Now you accuse him of propagating it


2. Take a look at this:

"I have read the Spanish version,and Italian.

I do not mean to offend by posting in Spanish,but it says very clearly that "This is yours,and I make you become sin again. And he likes that,because it has been his mission,become sin for us,to free us"


“Pero ¿qué es la reconciliación? Tomar a uno de esta parte, tomar a otro y hacer que estén unidos: no, esta es una parte pero no es... La verdadera reconciliación es que Dios, en Cristo, ha tomado nuestros pecados y Él se ha hecho pecado por nosotros. Y cando vamos a confesarnos, por ejemplo, no es que decimos el pecado y Dios nos perdona. No, ¡no es esto! Nosotros encontramos a Jesucristo y le decimos: ‘Esto es tuyo y yo te hago pecado otra vez. Y a Él le gusta eso, porque ha sido su misión: hacerse pecado por nosotros, para liberarnos.
Es la belleza y el “escándalo” de la redención que Jesús llevó a cabo dijo Francisco:"


In the Italian version,the phrase in question is even between inverted commas.
Maybe "make you become sin " can even be translated as "make you sin again" being sin here not a verb but a noun. Hope it clarifies

If anyone can read any of these languages,you will notice the difference.
Peace".

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=802790
http://www.news.va/es/news/el-cristi...ncia-la-de-cri

3. I have published for you a copy of the CCC on homosexuality, you and those confused are yet to tell me how the Pope's statement
contradicts it.

4. The Pope quoted scripture LK 9:50, Mk 9:40, Tell me the scripture is not correct. It doesn't matter what you infer or suggest it insinuates, He quoted scripture to support himself. Do good anyway and let the Holy spirit do His part...this is the message of the Pope. Do not underestimate the power of God to save whoever he so wishes.

5. Read carefully my submissions above and desist from undue alarm, rather pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to sow weeds in the garden".

1. What makes you think I don't have something else to say? I am only writing with reservations.


2. (a) "He (Pope Francis) told me. ... 'I'm in favor of gay rights and in any case, I also favor civil unions for homosexuals, but I believe that Argentina is not yet ready for a gay marriage law,'" said Marquez, a gay rights activist, a self-described devout Catholic and a former theology professor at a Catholic seminary.

That man is not just a circular activist but a friend of the Pope and a devout Catholic who is a professor at the Catholic seminary. Someone who knows the implication of unguided speech that with plenty of consequences, even he knows he could be excommunicated from the church should he tell lies against the Pope. Have you seen anyone coming out to counter this since despite the fact it was widely published in all the major news media and christians/catholic media?

(b) "Bergoglio -- faithful to his moderate position -- proposed continuing measured actions. ... He would suggest, also, that the church discreetly accept the intermediate alternative of the civil union -- authorizing a series of rights (inheritance, social work) -- that would not equate to marriage nor permit adoption," wrote journalist Sergio Rubin -- now Bergoglio's biographer.

Did you not read that what transpired at the Argentina Catholic bishop conference was reported in the newspapers at the time. And the journalist who published it is said to be Pope Francis current biographer. Use your tongue to count your teeth. This was not from an enemy, but from his friend and employee. There has never been any denials or contrary report to date.

(c) It was after the Catholic bishop conference turned down the Pope's proposal that he went and make a public statement that about his rejection of same sex marriage. Why did he support civil union in the first place? That is odd for even a lay faithful, talking much more of a cardinal. You have to speak the truth and be frank till the end. When what you offer are deliberate vague speeches, you leave loopholes for evil to triumph.

2. According to you, you said the Spanish version was interpreted thus: "This is yours,and I make you become sin again. And he likes that,because it has been his mission,become sin for us,to free us"

This is outright blaspheme against Jesus Christ. My Jesus has never been sin and can never be sin. This alone almost made me conclude on Bergoglio.

Take a look at the various English versions too even in the one in the Vatican website at the time and other Catholic papers. All the English interpretations are the same. Now you even publish a Spanish version which looks worse.

3. Everyone knows about the CCC. The CCC did not at anytime say people should be silent or preach less about Homosexuality and abortion. It is the duty of every christian to preach that Homosexuality is wrong and people in this sin must seek repentance and forgiveness. These are mortal sins and very grievous sins where the people who are involved can't receive communion until they are deeply sorry and seek confession.

Homosexuality is particularly worse because you cannot be a gay and still be a christian. Homosexuality is a direct rebellion against God because you are perpetually and permanently declaring yourself to be against a clear commandment, and state of serious sinful living for God destroyed a whole nation. As christians we are meant to love everyone, but we also have the duty to affirm the truth always. This is what the CCC preached. But Pope Francis has never preached against these serious issues and has dodged or given vague answers to any questions about homosexuality and abortion.

There is a difference between falling into sin and declaring you have chosen a sinful lifestyle. If someone had in error or weakness fallen into the unnatural act of homosexuality, then the person needs to be sincerely sorry, repent and confess. That's all. But when one has said he has permanently decided to live wilfully as gay or lesbian, that person is directly mocking God and rebelling against His command. Such a person will have to repent totally of such declaration before he can be said to be a christian again. In other words, you cannot be gay and still claim to be a follower of christ- christian. Anyone who says he is a gay is already accepting he cannot show any remorse for his way of living. It shouldn't be too surprising that most gays are atheists.

4. Anyone can quote scripture for any reason. Scripture can be twisted or misused. That scripture wasn't even talking about unbelievers or atheist. If the Pope was right, the Vatican wouldn't have contradicted him immediately. The duty of a christian is first to point the world to Christ. When you try to tell people they don't need to look for Jesus Christ to be saved, then you are undermining Christianity and helping to defeat the reason Jesus came. Jesus said we have to go to the Father through Him. If there are people to be saved without being christians, that should be left to God and our prayers of conversion for them.

There is no need trying to please people in a bid to forming a one world religion or an all inclusive church where sin and repentance will not be preached. Jesus did not say we should apply diplomacy/compromise to his teachings in order to get everyone into His church. He instructed that the truth should be told, when no one accepts it, shake off your shoes and leave. He said the road to heaven is narrow and only a few will find it. He said people should sit down and take a stock of what it takes to follow Him and make a decision.

5. There is nothing like an undue alarm. In all of Pope John Paul II 25 years reign, he never caused this kind of confusion in key/fundamental teachings. You have to be careful and open your eyes to the gospel of Jesus to enable you detect when lies are being spread. What we are debating today is what the Pope said which is in black and white, and the Pope also said it is not possible to intervene spiritually in the life of a person (sinner). It is not wrong to scrutinize what a church leader has said. Infact it should be our first responsibility as christians because the salvation of the world depends on those teachings.

italo: What has Benedict the man of God said about all these things?

It seems Elampiro know much more about the Vatican than the Pope Emeritus.

If for instance Pope Francis comes tomorrow now and make major changes to the teachings of the church which contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ, would you wait for Pope Benedict to say it before you realize what is happening?
...............................................................

Cardinal Raymond Burke did not have to wait for Benedict to react as quoted below.

" It’s a nonsense for people to say that Catholics have focused too much on the great moral evils of our time such as abortion and gay marriage and sex, when in fact as a result of the collapse of catechesis since Vatican II, the majority of Catholics have been reduced to silence. In the face of the political push to enshrine gay marriage and the normalisation of deviancy, and the Silent Holocause of 1.7 billion babies killed through abortion since the 1970′s Catholics must shout from the roof tops and take to the streets."
http://protectthepope.com/?p=8434

italo: I doubt that Elampiro knows that slander of such magnitude is a grave sin...and a grave sin separates a soul from God.

So analyzing the Pope's comment is now a slander? If the Pope had not made unguided statements the media would be still. We were already used to them from time immemorial how they mock the Catholic church as too conservative, etc. It was better for the church. The church should be church and not circular.

@ Elampiro,

1. That's left for you

2. (a) somebody say is always "your word against mine". You must have seen this as well "Alejandro Russo, the rector of the Metropolitan Cathedral in Buenos Aires, said it was unlikely the pope had ever expressed such a view, even in private".

(b) His position is based on the CCC, the church has moderates in the application of their teachings, these are theological positions

(C)His suggestions in the company of fellow bishops is what you question? Do i need to remind you that the church has never been such that everybody has same opinion, You may want to read Acts 15 again. Even the saints disputed about doctrines but submit in humility when the church declares a stand. His stand is based on how far he wishes to stretch the church teaching on homosexuality albeit "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition".CCC. Check out his recent action in the link below

Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/09/25/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination-and-gays/#ixzz2gB0wmPAR


Except you do not even understand the theology of salvation by grace, that Spanish version is all you need. You just said its worse, means you are turning from the truth to clutching on straw.


2. You call 2cor 5:21 a blasphemy? "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God". I really fear for you my friend.



3. You accuse the pope of not preaching against it...., He fought his government to a standstill on the Issue for goodness sake, i do not know who you are listening to. Now he has excommunicated a priest for it. while you are there shouting blasphemy for what you do not understand. Just wikipedia him and learn.

4. Scripture can be twisted or misused you say? hahahaha, Italo did you here that? Elampiro's interpretation of scripture is now the guide. The Vatican did not contradict him, rather the Vatican spokesman reaffirmed the stand of the church, to the media and you, who are bent on misrepresenting him. The quote at the end, I have said it before, is not from Cardinal Burke.

5. Vatican II and Vatican I are different approaches to same subject. Approaches change based on subsisting challenges. people left the church after Vatican II, claiming the church has been taken over by the devil, today even you say JPII was saintly...and he practiced vatican II. It is your responsibility to pray, we have those Christ have put at the head, of whom he will demand accountability, do not delve into unfamiliar territory claiming to be a master and making conclusions based on some sort of ignorance. JPII went to the mosque to pray, some earlier Popes would never have done that, lets not compare Popes here.
We ought to pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to sow weeds in the garden".

elampiro:

If for instance Pope Francis comes tomorrow now and make major changes to the teachings of the church which contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ, would you wait for Pope Benedict to say it before you realize what is happening?
...............................................................

Cardinal Raymond Burke did not have to wait for Benedict to react as quoted below.

" It’s a nonsense for people to say that Catholics have focused too much on the great moral evils of our time such as abortion and gay marriage and sex, when in fact as a result of the collapse of catechesis since Vatican II, the majority of Catholics have been reduced to silence. In the face of the political push to enshrine gay marriage and the normalisation of deviancy, and the Silent Holocause of 1.7 billion babies killed through abortion since the 1970′s Catholics must shout from the roof tops and take to the streets."
http://protectthepope.com/?p=8434

Till he makes that major change ( which is obviously against faith and moral), he continues to be the shepherd.

Cardinal Burke did not make that statement, the writer of the article, who share the same opinion as you, wrote that. The quotation mark, is yours.

elampiro:

So analyzing the Pope's comment is now a slander? If the Pope had not made unguided statements the media would be still. We were already used to them from time immemorial how they mock the Catholic church as too conservative, etc. It was better for the church. The church should be church and not circular.

The church should preach what the spirit has taught. Same words, new enlightenment. Before now, I never knew the CCC was even that considerate on homosexuality. Pope Francis has led me to read it, now I know better. Peter has taught me, Praise the Lord!

elampiro:

If for instance Pope Francis comes tomorrow now and make major changes to the teachings of the church which contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ, would you wait for Pope Benedict to say it before you realize what is happening?
...............................................................

Cardinal Raymond Burke did not have to wait for Benedict to react as quoted below.

" It’s a nonsense for people to say that Catholics have focused too much on the great moral evils of our time such as abortion and gay marriage and sex, when in fact as a result of the collapse of catechesis since Vatican II, the majority of Catholics have been reduced to silence. In the face of the political push to enshrine gay marriage and the normalisation of deviancy, and the Silent Holocause of 1.7 billion babies killed through abortion since the 1970′s Catholics must shout from the roof tops and take to the streets."
http://protectthepope.com/?p=8434

I was just wondering why a man of God would be writing to an Atheist on less important issues if we had satan's agent leading the Catholic Church.

Would it be more reasonable for him to write to Christians, warning us of this "satan" and his agenda?

@ Elampiro,

The way you viciously antagonize Pope Francis with false quotes and misquotes...

...do we need to look to far to find an agent of satan?

Syncan: @ Elampiro,

1. That's left for you

2. (a) somebody say is always "your word against mine". You must have seen this as well "Alejandro Russo, the rector of the Metropolitan Cathedral in Buenos Aires, said it was unlikely the pope had ever expressed such a view, even in private".

(b) His position is based on the CCC, the church has moderates in the application of their teachings, these are theological positions

(C)His suggestions in the company of fellow bishops is what you question? Do i need to remind you that the church has never been such that everybody has same opinion, You may want to read Acts 15 again. Even the saints disputed about doctrines but submit in humility when the church declares a stand. His stand is based on how far he wishes to stretch the church teaching on homosexuality albeit "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition".CCC. Check out his recent action in the link below

Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/09/25/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination-and-gays/#ixzz2gB0wmPAR


Except you do not even understand the theology of salvation by grace, that Spanish version is all you need. You just said its worse, means you are turning from the truth to clutching on straw.


2. You call 2cor 5:21 a blasphemy? "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God". I really fear for you my friend.



3. You accuse the pope of not preaching against it...., He fought his government to a standstill on the Issue for goodness sake, i do not know who you are listening to. Now he has excommunicated a priest for it. while you are there shouting blasphemy for what you do not understand. Just wikipedia him and learn.

4. Scripture can be twisted or misused you say? hahahaha, Italo did you here that? Elampiro's interpretation of scripture is now the guide. The Vatican did not contradict him, rather the Vatican spokesman reaffirmed the stand of the church, to the media and you, who are bent on misrepresenting him. The quote at the end, I have said it before, is not from Cardinal Burke.

5. Vatican II and Vatican I are different approaches to same subject. Approaches change based on subsisting challenges. people left the church after Vatican II, claiming the church has been taken over by the devil, today even you say JPII was saintly...and he practiced vatican II. It is your responsibility to pray, we have those Christ have put at the head, of whom he will demand accountability, do not delve into unfamiliar territory claiming to be a master and making conclusions based on some sort of ignorance. JPII went to the mosque to pray, some earlier Popes would never have done that, lets not compare Popes here.
We ought to pray more in these times, for the "enemy cometh at night to sow weeds in the garden".

2. Your number 2 above. This is not a matter of word against word. Why did the Argertina church or the bishops not counter deny the newspaper publication? Why did any Vatican official not clear the alleged Pope's remarks?

You still are missing some points about the homosexual remark. Did the CCC said we should not preach against homosexuality? How funny to hide under mercy to twist things. Mercy for the sinner, but preach to him/her.

That excommunication stuff was the handiwork of Benedict. Francis only used it as part of his weapon.

3. The excommunication was a work done under Benedict. The process of excommunication is a long one.

4. The Corth verse you quoted clearly stated that Jesus is One (He) without sin and had taken away the sins of the world by his death. But Pope Francis said we don't have to seek forgiveness when we go to confession. He said we should say ''Jesus here are your sins.... And we will sin again'' he continued that we are not asking for forgiveness because we are handing Jesus' sins back to Him. My friend this is blaspheme.

Compare the Pope's comment with what is in Corithians and you will notice the twist.

Bible said Jesus had no sin. Pope said we should not seek forgiveness of our sins because they are Jesus' sins. And we must state we will sin again. No remorse.

5. The scripture has no two meanings on sexual sins. It is clear. The teachings of the church is very clear too, but Pope Francis has refused to affirm the teachings of the church on sexual sins, instead he is watering it down.

6. In Pope John II 25 years reign only one thing you were able to bring out- he entered a mosque. And he did that just to help negotiate for tolerance for all chrisians in muslim world. He did not tell the atheist they are okay without Jesus. He was against sexual immorality. Has Pope Francis worked even for 1 years? Look at the controversies in just 6 months.

7. Vatican II was a preparatory ground for some of the errors we see today. This is another topic altogether. The smoke of satan has entered the church for some years now and it has been growing.

Syncan:

Till he makes that major change ( which is obviously against faith and moral), he continues to be the shepherd.

I have not said he is not currently the shepherd. It is Italo who has been putting words in my mouth that I called Pope Francis an agent of satan. Scan through my writing whether you will see any of such statement. From the start I was focused on the Pope statements. I think I have the liberty to analyze these statements

Syncan:
Cardinal Burke did not make that statement, the writer of the article, who share the same opinion as you, wrote that. The quotation mark, is yours.

I only copied everything thinking it was all from the Cardinal. I didn't take note that was a conclusion remark. Thanks for calling my attention to that.

Syncan:

The church should preach what the spirit has taught. Same words, new enlightenment. Before now, I never knew the CCC was even that considerate on homosexuality. Pope Francis has led me to read it, now I know better. Peter has taught me, Praise the Lord!

Hope you know there is a difference in condemning the sinner and condemning the sin?

italo:

I was just wondering why a man of God would be writing to an Atheist on less important issues if we had satan's agent leading the Catholic Church.

Would it be more reasonable for him to write to Christians, warning us of this "satan" and his agenda?

You call him satan, not anyone else. What every other person is doing is pointing out or exposing the errors in Pope Francis statements. If not curb, should it continue it will be disastrous.

italo: @ Elampiro,

The way you viciously antagonize Pope Francis with false quotes and misquotes...

...do we need to look to far to find an agent of satan?

Show me one single place I have misquoted Pope Francis? Show me any English version of his speech I have reported that is not same with what you will find in the Vatican website or Vatican news papers?

You are the one who refuses to see you are supporting errors.

Any time the Pope makes such serious controversial remarks, I must pick it up. The times are dangerous and we must be on the alert.