InesQor:

Dude it's a simple question and has nothing to do with all these delay tactics of yours: what is your BASIS for saying "Christianity is meant for dull people"?

I understand if you have no basis / no answer to my question, and you would be too ashamed to say you have no basis - because in your atheistic worldview everything should have a basis. But judging by that statement it would just mean you use words carelessly the way a madman with diarrhoea releases faeces.

Yes there are gods in my village, and I have worshipped them before until I found something I deemed better.

You see? I can actually answer questions. Unlike you, it appears.

Christians are the dumbest of people because
-they believe without prove
-they never seek knowledge and do personal research
-They claim they know God but when they are questioned, they always claim God is too complicated to understand
-they are slave minded
-they worship a DEAD JEW
-they insult their ancestors
-they fail to realise their fraudulent Religion was based on Jewish myth, I mean Imagine a yoruba man believing that he is a decendant of Adam
-they refer to themselves as adopted children of Abraham so sad, A man who doesnt give a rats tail about you
-they fail to realise that the God in the bible is biased to favour only Jews, not IGbo, yoruba or any African group.(he hates ur guts) U can read wat the Jews claim he did to the Egyptians and even original habitants of Canaan
-the god of the jews promotes discrimination
-the Christians downgrade God by including the dead Jew as part of a false Trinity
-the early Christians were murderers and liars
-Their Religion tried(and still tries, but would never succeed) to completely obliterate Africanism
- these christians are in support of the attempt of Christianity to end Africanism
- these Christians have failed to realise that their bible is incomplete

macof: making dull people wise are u wise now?
so is the bible the only thing that preaches "love ur neighbour as yourself"?

1Co 1:20-25 NET 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching. For Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks ask for wisdom, but we preach about a crucified Christ, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
See we've been through this part severally, whatever answers we give, u guys will call it irrational, so what else do you expect?!

ifeness:
You are dull because you refuse to think.

Like you better than some people here.......

How can you worship a god you cannot prove its existence?

Who told you God cannot be proved?

you are sick!

From a Rational mind.


Have you ever ask yourself, what makes people change overtime?

Many Christian have changed to atheism and other religions, like many atheist have become Christian........

Then, what is the missing link?

noblefada:
1Co 1:20-25 NET 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching. For Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks ask for wisdom, but we preach about a crucified Christ, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
See we've been through this part severally, whatever answers we give, u guys will call it irrational, so what else do you expect?!

Just proves u are really dumb. I asked a question u throwing a bible verse, as if Paul knew the level of ur intelligence when he was writing the letter.

Emusan:

Like you better than some people here.......



Who told you God cannot be proved?



From a Rational mind.


Have you ever ask yourself, what makes people change overtime?

Many Christian have changed to atheism and other religions, like many atheist have become Christian........

Then, what is the missing link?

PAGANISM is the missing link

macof:
Christians are the dumbest of people because
-the believe without prove
-the never seek knowledge and do personal research
-They claim they know God but when they are questioned, they always claim God is too complicated to understand
-they are slave minded
-they worship a DEAD JEW
-the insult their ancestors
-the fail to realise their fraudulent Religion was based on Jewish myth, I mean Imagine a yoruba man believing that he is a decendant of Adam
-they refer to themselves as adopted children of Abraham so sad, A man who doesnt give a rats tail about you
-the fail to realise that the God in the bible is biased to favour only Jews, not IGbo, yoruba or any African group.(he hates ur guts) U can read wat the Jews claim he did to the Egyptians and even original habitants of Canaan
-the god of the jews promotes discrimination
-the Christians downgrade God by including the dead Jew as part of a false Trinity
-the early Christians were murderers and liars
-Their Religion tried(and still tries, but would never succeed) to completely obliterate Africanism
- these christians are in support of the attempt of Christianity to end Africanism
- these Christians have failed to realise that their bible is incomplete

nwuyag:
yh, sorry....I got. you well.
I quoted your last post cos it wqs the last I saw bashing ifeness. and when I said "throwing insults", I did not. mean direct insults and was not specifically referring to you.

on the matter, you might have a problem witb lb, but I did see some reasonable questions in what he said especially nos 2, 3, 4, 7, 9,10. while others did not really bother me but still need clarification...

I am no lb, so can you explain those( I am not gullibe, so expect questions)

Alright I'll try to answer you as tersely as I can. Realize that such issues as these are what Ph.D. candidates in theology spend years writing volumes of papers on, so don't expect me to write a lot to convince you, but I may attempt to be convincing. Lastly, take note that I am only replying for myself - and some of my perspectives are unconventional, so I do not speak for all Christians. I do not believe it is possible for anyone to speak for all Christians.

I will quote some Bible verses where I deem them appropriate. After all, this is about Christianity. I will however also add perspectives from other religious worldviews / ideologies that have resonated in agreement with my understanding in my religious growth in God so far.

Now to questions 2, 3, 4, 7, 9,10 as you said. Slow and steady, first off, Question 2.

macof: Just proves u are really dumb. I asked a question u throwing a bible verse, as if Paul knew the level of ur intelligence when he was writing the letter.

You know u can get ur message across without insults, I believe we're having gentlemen's conversation. What I did was just to show you were switchicgurl was quoting from and as u see its describes perfectly the reason for this thread. See it doesn't matter ur intelligence, for a xtian Christ has been made wisdom unto us.

@LB I'm actually very surprised about this thread, because just a couple of weeks ago, we had similar issue, where the atheists keep ascertaining that what we were explaining were irrational and didn't make sense! in fact one such arguments were so sharp that @Plaetton had to open this thread [b] https://www.nairaland.com/1458868/bible-only-believers [\b]. where this same issue was still extensively discussed, so I'm actually mystified seeing this thread and will actually appreciate if @LB, @Plaetton and other atheists can clarify this issue.

noblefada: @LB I'm actually very surprised about this thread, because just a couple of weeks ago, we had similar issue, where the atheists keep ascertaining that what we were explaining were irrational and didn't make sense! in fact one such arguments were so sharp that @Plaetton had to open this thread https://www.nairaland.com/1458868/bible-only-believers. [size=13pt]where this same issue was still extensively discussed, so I'm actually mystified seeing this thread[/size] and will actually appreciate if @LB, @Plaetton and other atheists can clarify this issue.

That's what I was saying. These issues will keep popping back up over and again. Oh well.

This is primarily for nwuyag:

First off, I believe the scriptures are heavily symbolic and often we get too hung on the very words that are meant to guide us in truth.

The Buddha likened some religious questions to a man shot with an arrow who looks around to see who shot him, then said the man will die with his injury as he is asking the not-so-important question instead of just treating himself.

2. We are told that God sent his only begotten son to die for our sins. Is there a problem with forgiving sins without the death of somebody?

I believe God's plans unraveling through the ages are always multifaceted, so there are many perspectives to this, and I will try to explore them one by one.

Salvation in spite of the sacrifice
I believe we received Jesus' salvation in spite of the fact that we crucified him, and not because of the fact that we crucified him.
God knew that upon sending someone as awesome as Jesus, human beings wouldn't be able to cope until they silence him by killing him. That's just human nature, like what we can see everyday around us today, and God KNEW it.

Mark 12: 1 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. 6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; 11 the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?” 12 Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.

God is the owner of the vineyard Earth, and he had been sending his servants to us. We treated them all shamefully, and killed them. Finally he sent his son Jesus and we killed him. The normal thing for such a father is to retaliate against the tenants and then get new tenants for the vineyard. BUT God had already planned for it since before the existence of the world (Rev 13:8 ) because he knows the future, so he planned it in such a way that when the tenants, who were Jews, killed Jesus, they would also be making a "final sacrifice" (which was a symbol to Jews, as I'll further explain), which would then absolve them of the crime and they can go scot-free.

The Greater Love
Jesus knew we were going to murder him but he was ready to come for us anyway, to show his love for us: "Greater love has no one than this, then to lay down his life for his friend" (John 15:13) Jesus said he HAD to die. This was because he knew humans would stop at nothing whatsoever, and in so doing they would fulfill what God had already made allowances for since before the existence of the world (Rev 13:8 ).

Jesus on the necessarily salvific value of his death
Jesus himself never said his blood or his death was in order to save them.
What was necessary to save people was to believe in him. For God so loved the world that he sent Jesus so that whoever believes in him would not perish... (John 3:16).

The petty sacrifices
The continuous sacrifices of animals was introduced to control the people and to fleece them because they had to keep buying the sacrifice materials ~ the same thing Jesus drove them from the temple for (I believe, contrary to the popular opinion that they were selling at expensive prices – where did that thought even come from, it’s not there anywhere that they were selling at costly prices? ) ~ and nowhere will you read of Jesus doing a sacrifice for atonement for himself or for his disciples. It was a corruption that had eaten into the Jewish religion, but Jesus had to allow the final sacrifice to clear the consciences of the Jews otherwise they would bear the weight of their own guilts yet in their hearts even though they had seen the more excellent way of Love through Jesus the Christ.

Significance of Christ's death as a symbolism to Jews and non-Jews
The Jews had already been used to these petty blood sacrifices, but they had to keep re-doing these sacrifices because their religious beliefs stated that the sacrifices would wear off. They needed a final sacrifice that would justify them permanently, so accepting Jesus' death as a final sacrifice became the perfect symbol for them, and they caused it so you can say they sacrificed Jesus. For the rest of us, we were not already doing any sacrifices so the symbolism didn't apply to us. Our own symbolism is hinged on the expression of his Love for us.

The cooperation of Jesus Christ
Jesus was prepared anyway to be killed by the people he loved, for the things he believed in ~ and for the good he was doing in people’s lives. His death was thus representing the extent of his love for us.

What Christ's death accomplished
As such, Jesus’ death was a stone that killed two birds. On one hand, he proved the extent of his love for all the world. On the other hand, he fulfilled the final requirements for the petty animal sacrifices of blood that the Jews were in a covenant to deliver. Without this second angle, the Jews would – according to the judging nature of their consciences – still be in DEBT. Jesus rolled away that debt while making a statement about LOVE to the rest of us who didn't peddle sacrifices.

Necessity of the Resurrection
Then the resurrection on the other hand would have been necessary to prove that he was actually an innocent man.
I believe the death and resurrection occurred but I am not arguing with any sceptic about whether they actually happened or not, because either way it is laced in eternal truth and serves as an example to show us that Perfect Love can never be put down.

Code of Hammurabi
I believe the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus is a symbolic example of trial by ordeal, as instituted by the Code of Hammurabi since 1700 B.C. I am not taking Hammurabi's code as an absolute, but I am using it as an example of a world legal system according to the trial by ordeal.

Hammurabi:
If anyone brings an accusation against a man, and the accused goes to the river and leaps into the river, if he sinks in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river proves that the accused is not guilty, and he escapes unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

Interpretation of the Code of Hammurabi with respect to Christ's sacrifice
An accusation was leveled against Jesus when he claimed to be the perfect embodiment of love. So symbolically, mankind subjected him to something like the Hammurabi code and he was crucified. If he never rose, then everything he ever taught and did supposedly as Perfect Love will become a joke. ALL OF mankind were His opponents ~ full of wordly desires ~ but represented by a quorum of Israelites ~ would have taken-possession of everything i.e. that would be the end and we would never hear of him again ~ perfect love will no longer be the walk of salvation.

But Justice had to speak forth for an innocent Jesus, so he escaped unhurt.
In turn, we are now compelled to be crucified with Christ – putting our own worldly desires to death (just like how Hammurabi’s Code would have made Jesus put us to death) and we are now also compelled to let him have our "houses and belongings"
=> THAT is what it means to give your life and all to Jesus – he will own us and we have to let him own us by walking towards salvation in love.

Jesus Christ is then the victor of the Hammurabi Code's trial by ordeal, concerning his own claims of being Perfect Love.

noblefada:
You know u can get ur message across without insults, I believe we're having gentlemen's conversation. What I did was just to show you were switchicgurl was quoting from and as u see its describes perfectly the reason for this thread. See it doesn't matter ur intelligence, for a xtian Christ has been made wisdom unto us.

ok sorry for the insult.
U say Christ has made wisdom unto u. how so? wat has he impacted in ur life? how have u made contact? and wat has he taught u, dat u think u have become wise and knowledged?

macof: ok sorry for the insult.
U say Christ has made wisdom unto u. how so? wat has he impacted in ur life? how have u made contact? and wat has he taught u, dat u think u have become wise and knowledged?

He gave me the Holy Spirit and I received it by faith! the Holy Spirit has taught me so much on the mystery of Christ and the bible

noblefada:
He gave me the Holy Spirit and I received it by faith! the Holy Spirit has taught me so much on the mystery of Christ and the bible

so share wit us wat the holy spirit has taught u.

This is primarily for nwuyag:

3)We are told that Yahweh is the God of Isreal. Why would a good God choose one set of people over another? Is there a problem speaking to other people around the world at the same time? Why must all his prophets be Jews?

This is not true. Yahweh was not exclusively God of the Jews.
Job was an example of a man who lived in a faraway land of Uz in the East and yet his God was Yahweh.

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

John 10:16
I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

Believers all over the world
There were pockets of believers all over the world, people like Job, Melchizedek and Jethro, who were non-Jews. But God chose Israel as a nation that would be entirely dedicated to him. The outsiders still had their instinct and conscience in the doing of right and wrong, which is something none of us can deny. They did not need to hear God use words explicitly to each and everyone or to send prophets to each and every nation. The law of God is already written in all hearts.

Romans 2:14-16 (MSG)
When outsiders who have never heard of God’s law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God’s law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God’s yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God’s yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.

Why not?
And why not choose a nation? Politics and religion were hardly divorced from one another in the ancient civilizations. Almost all nations had a national religion which influenced their policies on war/ conquests, political and socio-economical decisions etc.

Why not Israel?
And why not Israel? If God had say, chosen Egypt (assuming that there had been someone like Abraham, from way back in Egypt), today the sceptic's question would be "Why did God choose Egypt?"

InesQor: This is primarily for nwuyag:



This is not true. Yahweh was not exclusively God of the Jews.
Job was an example of a man who lived in a faraway land of Uz in the East and yet his God was Yahweh.

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

John 10:16
I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

Believers all over the world
There were pockets of believers all over the world, people like Job, Melchizedek and Jethro, who were non-Jews. But God chose Israel as a nation that would be entirely dedicated to him. The outsiders still had their instinct and conscience in the doing of right and wrong, which is something none of us can deny. They did not need to hear God use words explicitly to each and everyone or to send prophets to each and every nation. The law of God is already written in all hearts.

Romans 2:14-16 (MSG)
When outsiders who have never heard of God’s law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God’s law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God’s yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God’s yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.

Why not?
And why not choose a nation? Politics and religion were hardly divorced from one another in the ancient civilizations. Almost all nations had a national religion which influenced their policies on war/ conquests, political and socio-economical decisions etc.

Why not Israel?
And why not Israel? If God had say, chosen Egypt (assuming that there had been someone like Abraham, from way back in Egypt), today the sceptic's question would be "Why did God choose Egypt?"

pls u should know that in Israel, they hate the idea of calling Yeshua the son of Yahweh. Only about 10% are Christians. The prevailing religions are Islam and Judaism

And u know why Egypt couldn't have been drowned into such. They already had an organised religion with the gods that they worshipped.

Honestly Abraham's family was a confused one. They worshipped the moon god of Uz, but Abraham was quick to change loyalties to another god.

Its possible that moon good was Halel but at the time there was a fight between halel and El. Halel was however sent to the underworld. And Abraham changed his loyalties.
During Abraham's time, there wasn't such a logic as "Only one god". Those u call angels were gods in the Original Jewish Pagan religion

This is primarily for nwuyag:

4)We are told that we come from two human beings- Adam and Eve. However, science/history proves this impossible because Jews/Hebrews were far from being the first humans on earth and also, the world could not be possibly populated by 2 human beings into 7 billion given the particular space of time and Inbreeding.

First off, there is an error in understanding within this question: Adam and Eve were neither Jews nor Hebrews; and the Bible does not make this claim in any way.

A genetic science outlook
In genetic science, the names Adam and Eve are used metaphorically in a scientific context to designate the patrilineal and matrilineal most recent common ancestors, i.e. the Y-chromosomal Adam and the Mitochondrial Eve. A recent study on the subject estimates that the Y-chromosomal Adam lived 120 to 156 thousand years ago, while the Mitochondrial Eve lived 99 to 148 thousand years ago. Another recent study places the Y-chromosomal Adam 180 to 200 thousand years ago. (See this Wikipedia article on the Y-chromosomal Adam and the Mitochondrial Eve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam since it easily includes references)

Neither is permanently fixed on a single individual, but the possibility of that has not been completely ruled out. YET. Which means there is a possibility that Y-chromosomal Adam may have been a community, as well as Mitochondrial Eve was a community OR they could have been individuals.

Incest and genetic defects in the Old Testament
In the early days of man the children from the union of a brother and sister would not have been deformed as often happens today, since Adam and Eve were physically perfect in every way. There was nothing wrong with inbreeding for many thousands of years because Adam and Eve were created with perfect genes. As time proceeded, man's physical body suffered more and more, until the time came that God forbade the marrying of brother and sister, since their offspring were now likely to be deformed. (The more closely related you are to someone the more defects you have in common, which may show in your offspring). So the laws of incest were not given until the time of Moses. Abraham was able to marry his half-sister without problems, but by the time of Moses God had to make a law prohibiting inbreeding because BY THEN the genetic defects due to inbreeding were beginning to appear.

I see the increase of such appearances of genetic defects over the timeline of humanity in much the same way I see human beings generally reducing in immunity the older they grow.

A similar problem for the evolution theory
I am a theistic evolutionist, i.e. I believe God USED evolution as a TOOL in his creation. But even the pure evolutionist must begin with two cells or two microbes or whatever - as well - or perhaps one, for asexual reproduction. Aren't adverse effects from a small gene pool a problem for the evolutionary model as well, in the 'early stages of life on earth'? This question of yours also poses a problem for evolution. Since inbreeding causes so many problems, the general trend for genetic mutation is down--even if one in every hundred mutations was beneficial, all is still going down fast!

Of course the pure evolutionist can refer to natural selection as the way the evolutionary process facilitates advancement of speciation. And why can't the theistic evolutionist accept this natural selection as a careful process ordained by God to ensure human population growth up until a point where inbreeding is now no longer necessary, but has rather become a harmful procedure?

macof: pls u should know that in Israel, they hate the idea of calling Yeshua the son of Yahweh. Only about 10% are Christians. The prevailing religions are Islam and Judaism

Yeah Israel has already served its purpose in the context of my post above. Their job was to produce Jesus in their lineage, and their job is now done.

macof: And u know why Egypt couldn't have been drowned into such. They already had an organised religion with the gods that they worshipped.

I just used Egypt as an example. I could as well have used the Incas, China, Greece, Persia or any other ancient civilization.

macof: so share wit us wat the holy spirit has taught u.

I've done severally, check the threads I've be commenting, you can start with "contradictions in the bible", but the most important thing is that Jesus loves you so much he gave His life for you, all you need to is to just believe and accept what he has done for you!

This is primarily for nwuyag:

7)Did Jesus really sacrifice himself? Did he really do anything for us? If I know that I am going to a place called heaven which is an everlasting paradise, why wouldnt I go and get myself crucified? I am only accepting the crucifixion for a reward- this is no sacrifice.

I made sure I already dealt with this while I was responding to question 2.

This is primarily for nwuyag:

9) How could Adam and Eve have grandchildren without inbreeding occurring with their children?

Of course in-breeding occurred. I think your real question was how come genetic defects did not multiply due to inbreeding.

I have already answered this in question 4, but I'll reiterate.

If Adam and Eve were created with perfect genes it would have taken a long time for defects to begin to show up due to inbreeding.

This is primarily for nwuyag:

10)The most irrational thing that I find is that the God as described in the bible suspiciously has all the characteristics of a Jewish man in the early centuries.
-He chooses his Jewish people over others (Jewish prophets, God of isreal)
-Sexist laws (http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Bbl/Sexism/Sexism.html)
-believes in sacrifice (eg Cain and abel's sacrifice, Jesus sacrifice on the cross)
-mostly supports the Jews in wars
-never mentions any ancient lands/people that jews have never been to (eg hanan, aztecs, etc)
-never mentions any technology that the jews never had access to
-never once suggested that slavery is one of the most evil things a man can do to another
-believed in the death penalty as ascribed by many Jewish laws.

It makes perfect sense that God will reveal himself to people in a way that they will understand and easily relate to, provided that he is trying to establish a relationship with them.

This is after all, one reason why a loving mother will coo-coo baby talk to her precious infant. In the infant's mind I guess they'll think of the mother like some big baby as well.

Unless I'm missing something this is a set of opinions and not a question or questions.

And there, I am done.

noblefada:
I've done severally, check the threads I've be commenting, you can start with "contradictions in the bible", but the most important thing is that Jesus loves you so much he gave His life for you, all you need to is to just believe and accept what he has done for you!

I prefer to believe the words of my ancestors than the words of the Jews who don't even regard u

InesQor:

Yeah Israel has already served its purpose in the context of my post above. Their job was to produce Jesus in their lineage, and their job is now done.



I just used Egypt as an example. I could as well have used the Incas, China, Greece, Persia or any other ancient civilization.

So pls tell us, What if Yeshua was born Chinese? Wat do u think would be the difference?
And also why wasn't it China, India or any other Asian country? Why Israel? Why David's lineage?

Christianity is not irrational. There is evidence for the historical Jesus if Nazareth and moreover, the evidence of the Holy Spirit evidences that he was who he claimed to be.

The question is, are atheists open to the evidence? If you scoffed about my statement about the Holy Spirit then you mostly likely aren't open to the evidence?

It comes down to this. In the natural world, we follow the scientific process in order to gain knowledge and understanding of the things that are natural. But with the things that are spiritual, a different process is required to gain knowledge and understanding of those things. Now, the process Jesus laid down is this: believe on me and you will see. It's not "believe in your pastor" or "believe in your church" or "believe in your denomination", it's to believe in Jesus, to seek Him.

So the question the honest skeptic must ask him/herself is whether they are willing to follow the process Jesus has laid down or not? If the answer is no, then the skeptic will run up against a wall every time since "the things of the spirit are spirit and the things of the flesh are flesh, and they are contrary."

@ inesqor,
I m taking my time to go through all and I am on phone, so I might take some time, but in a short time, I will be replying gradually

NativeBoy: Christianity is not irrational. There is evidence for the historical Jesus if Nazareth and moreover, the evidence of the Holy Spirit evidences that he was who he claimed to be.

The question is, are atheists open to the evidence? If you scoffed about my statement about the Holy Spirit then you mostly likely aren't open to the evidence?

It comes down to this. In the natural world, we follow the scientific process in order to gain knowledge and understanding of the things that are natural. But with the things that are spiritual, a different process is required to gain knowledge and understanding of those things. Now, the process Jesus laid down is this: believe on me and you will see. It's not "believe in your pastor" or "believe in your church" or "believe in your denomination", it's to believe in Jesus, to seek Him.

So the question the honest skeptic must ask him/herself is whether they are willing to follow the process Jesus has laid down or not? If the answer is no, then the skeptic will run up against a wall every time since "the things of the spirit are spirit and the things of the flesh are flesh, and they are contrary."

and why must believe in Jesus to gain knowledge? even the Jews don't believe in him. But u see Africans condemning their ancestors and worshiping a Dead Jew with their lives. The Ancient Pagans have got more knowledge and wisdom than modern day Christians. THE ONLY THING U GAIN FROM CHRISTIANITY IS STUPIDITY

InesQor: This is primarily for nwuyag:

First off, I believe the scriptures are heavily symbolic and often we get too hung on the very words that are meant to guide us in truth.

The Buddha likened some religious questions to a man shot with an arrow who looks around to see who shot him, then said the man will die with his injury as he is asking the not-so-important question instead of just treating himself.



I believe God's plans unraveling through the ages are always multifaceted, so there are many perspectives to this, and I will try to explore them one by one.

.

Salvation in spite of the sacrifice
I believe we received Jesus' salvation in spite of the fact that we crucified him, and not because of the fact that we crucified him.

what do you mean by "we".
I really cant fathom how i am accused of something I knew nothing about, except from a book given to me when young

God knew that upon sending someone as awesome as Jesus, human beings wouldn't be able to cope until they silence him by killing him. That's just human nature, like what we can see everyday around us today, and God KNEW it.

Ok

Mark 12: 1 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. 6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; 11 the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?” 12 Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.
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God is the owner of the vineyard Earth, and he had been sending his servants to us. We treated them all shamefully, and killed them. Finally he sent his son Jesus and we killed him. The normal thing for such a father is to retaliate against the tenants and then get new tenants for the vineyard. BUT God had already planned for it since before the existence of the world (Rev 13:8 ) because he knows the future, so he planned it in such a way that when the tenants, who were Jews, killed Jesus, they would also be making a "final sacrifice" (which was a symbol to Jews, as I'll further explain), which would then absolve them of the crime and they can go scot-free.

I really don't. like the way you are using "we". I did not do anything. Before i was born, or anyone was born, there were a million sperms, and only one fertilized, so if i had my way, do you think i will be happy to come qnd twke a blame of something i did not do in the 1st place?. Its like you travelling to kenya and you are a moslem, then you are arrested cos of the original moslem killers which you knew nothing about. But does an all merciful God need to respect the tradition of mere sinful jews by sending his son which he already knew they will kill?, why not just forgive?. It saves innocent people any stress.

The Greater Love
Jesus knew we were going to murder him but he was ready to come for us anyway, to show his love for us: "Greater love has no one than this, then to lay down his life for his friend" (John 15:13)

what was the point then, why come when you know that we will murder him, why not just forgive?

Jesus said he HAD to die. This was because he knew humans would stop at nothing whatsoever, and in so doing they would fulfill what God had already made allowances for since before the existence of the world (Rev 13:8 ).

He has to die means that he has to fuffil some jewish traditions to show his love. what was special with the jews then? What happened to other parts of the earth at that time?

Jesus on the necessarily salvific value of his death
Jesus himself never said his blood or his death was in order to save them.
What was necessary to save people was to believe in him. For God so loved the world that he sent Jesus so that whoever believes in him would not perish... (John 3:16).

The petty sacrifices
The continuous sacrifices of animals was introduced to control the people and to fleece them because they had to keep buying the sacrifice materials ~ the same thing Jesus drove them from the temple for (I believe, contrary to the popular opinion that they were selling at expensive prices – where did that thought even come from, it’s not there anywhere that they were selling at costly prices? ) ~ and nowhere will you read of Jesus doing a sacrifice for atonement for himself or for his disciples. It was a corruption that had eaten into the Jewish religion, but Jesus had to allow the final sacrifice to clear the consciences of the Jews otherwise they would bear the weight of their own guilts yet in their hearts even though they had seen the more excellent way of Love through Jesus the Christ.

Like I said, what was special with the jews?. You should know what answer that should be ringing on my mind now

Significance of Christ's death as a symbolism to Jews and non-Jews
The Jews had already been used to these petty blood sacrifices, but they had to keep re-doing these sacrifices because their religious beliefs stated that the sacrifices would wear off. They needed a final sacrifice that would justify them permanently, so accepting Jesus' death as a final sacrifice became the perfect symbol for them, and they caused it so you can say they sacrificed Jesus. For the rest of us, we were not already doing any sacrifices so the symbolism didn't apply to us. Our own symbolism is hinged on the expression of his Love for us.

I really do not see how its now the business of nigerians. What did we do?, I get your point clearly, but why does a creator want to prove his love to his creation?

The cooperation of Jesus Christ
Jesus was prepared anyway to be killed by the people he loved, for the things he believed in ~ and for the good he was doing in people’s lives. His death was thus representing the extent of his love for us[\b].

@ bolded, I don't like the generalisn cos your writeup clearly shows that the story is about jews

[b]What Christ's death accomplished
As such, Jesus’ death was a stone that killed two birds. On one hand, he proved the extent of his love for all the world. On the other hand, he fulfilled the final requirements for the petty animal sacrifices of blood that the Jews were in a covenant to deliver. Without this second angle, the Jews would – according to the judging nature of their consciences – still be in DEBT. Jesus rolled away that debt while making a statement about LOVE to the rest of us who didn't peddle sacrifices.
Now, this just showed that God only worked with jews, and xtianity is from the jews...how is that now my problem?. The jews fuxked up, theey pay for. its their issue I guess
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Necessity of the Resurrection
Then the resurrection on the other hand would have been necessary to prove that he was actually an innocent man.
I believe the death and resurrection occurred but I am not arguing with any sceptic about whether they actually happened or not, because either way it is laced in eternal truth and serves as an example to show us that Perfect Love can never be put down.

This is your opinion

Code of Hammurabi
I believe the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus is a symbolic example of trial by ordeal, as instituted by the Code of Hammurabi since 1700 B.C. I am not taking Hammurabi's code as an absolute, but I am using it as an example of a world legal system according to the trial by ordeal.


Interpretation of the Code of Hammurabi with respect to Christ's sacrifice
An accusation was leveled against Jesus when he claimed to be the perfect embodiment of love. So symbolically, mankind subjected him to something like the Hammurabi code and he was crucified. If he never rose, then everything he ever taught and did supposedly as Perfect Love will become a joke. ALL OF mankind were His opponents ~ full of wordly desires ~ but represented by a quorum of Israelites ~ would have taken-possession of everything i.e. that would be the end and we would never hear of him again ~ perfect love will no longer be the walk of salvation.

But Justice had to speak forth for an innocent Jesus, so he escaped unhurt.
In turn, we are now compelled to be crucified with Christ – putting our own worldly desires to death (just like how Hammurabi’s Code would have made Jesus put us to death) and we are now also compelled to let him have our "houses and belongings"
=> THAT is what it means to give your life and all to Jesus – he will own us and we have to let him own us by walking towards salvation in love.

Jesus Christ is then the victor of the Hammurabi Code's trial by ordeal, concerning his own claims of being Perfect Love.

I did not read these/ don't understand. Is it important?

@ inesquor,
pls chill, am on fone and. not able to type properly
I will soon be through on modifying the earlier post

macof: and why must believe in Jesus to gain knowledge? even the Jews don't believe in him. But u see Africans condemning their ancestors and worshiping a Dead Jew with their lives. The Ancient Pagans have got more knowledge and wisdom than modern day Christians. THE ONLY THING U GAIN FROM CHRISTIANITY IS STUPIDITY

You should believe in Jesus because of your sins. I am neither judging nor condemning you. I am also a sinner; every single person is a sinner. Jesus is the one who has reconciled us with God the Father that we may be able to stand before Him knowing that our sins don't condemn us.

Indeed most of the Jewish leaders rejected him, but not all Jews rejected him. The early church in fact was almost all Jewish. The jewish leadership rejected him because they knew his truth was a threat to their rule. But you have to ask, what was so special about Jesus especially in a time when so many claimed to be the Messiah? Why did the Jewish leadership want him dead so badly that they chose to vindicate a known murderer? You see, Christ was proved at every opportunity even when it was told that he rose from the dead. Even his own disciples didn't believe it (no doubt you know the story involving the disciple thomas) which is to show you that they weren't the gullible unthinking minds as Christians are often arguing of being.

You rightly state the crucial piece. If Jesus did not rise, then Christianity is vain. But if he rose again, then we must all look to him for he us truth.

He rose again.

InesQor: This is primarily for nwuyag:



This is not true. Yahweh was not exclusively God of the Jews.
Job was an example of a man who lived in a faraway land of Uz in the East and yet his God was Yahweh.

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

John 10:16
I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

Believers all over the world
There were pockets of believers all over the world, people like Job, Melchizedek and Jethro, who were non-Jews. But God chose Israel as a nation that would be entirely dedicated to him. The outsiders still had their instinct and conscience in the doing of right and wrong, which is something none of us can deny. They did not need to hear God use words explicitly to each and everyone or to send prophets to each and every nation. The law of God is already written in all hearts.

Romans 2:14-16 (MSG)
When outsiders who have never heard of God’s law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God’s law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God’s yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God’s yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.

Why not?
And why not choose a nation? Politics and religion were hardly divorced from one another in the ancient civilizations. Almost all nations had a national religion which influenced their policies on war/ conquests, political and socio-economical decisions etc.

Why not Israel?
And why not Israel? If God had say, chosen Egypt (assuming that there had been someone like Abraham, from way back in Egypt), today the sceptic's question would be "Why did God choose Egypt?"

see, what you are saying here is far below any reasonable level of conviction. I still respect your opinions. All jesus was talking about was jews, so what happened to other parts of the world at that time. How do asians get to take blame for what the jews did? I still see the crucifixion as insane. I don't need ANYONE TO TELL ME THAY KILLING SOMEONE WITH JESUS'S PESRONALITY IS BAD BEFORE I KNOW ITS BAD. ( I am not ready to start any good/ bad argument)