true2god: U make a bit sense here, though u attempted to personified wisdom as christ but if u read through the entire chapter of Proverbs chapter 8, u will understand that it stressed the importance of wisdom in creation (prov 8:22-30) and on our daily lives (prov 8:32-36).

It said that wisdom was produced, so saying it is talking about ordinary wisdom, will be saying that God lacked wisdom sometime ago. this is impossible.

Now going by ur teaching, that the personified wisdom of God, according to the text is Jesus. Ok let me ask you as simple question, is there any time that God was without wisdom (Jesus, compare the text with John 1:1-12)? Let us assume that the wisdom of God is the word of God, because a man's wisdom is sysnonymous to his spoken word.

I think your confusion is in "in the beginning" in john1:1. that place doesnt mean in the infinite past, but in the beginning of creating other things. ie except Jesus.

we have already been told that Jesus was produce (prov. . the description of john 1:1 found a similarity in collosians. we read.

Colossians 1:15-16 KJV
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This indicate that Jesus was the first to be created as Proverb also confirms. after his creation, God created other things through him.

Is there any time that God was without wisdom (Jesus, the word)?

Dont insert wisdom there, just say Jesus. because the wisdom there stands for Jesus. Ya, there was a time God was alone before He created Jesus as the above shows.

JMAN05: Well your refusal doesnt change the greek it only makes you ignorant of the truth.

it does not block but curious on how you peeps reason. Lol.

JMAN05:

AT - The bible, an american translation

ED - The Emphatic Diaglott

Ro - the Emphasized bible.

good. So only 3 verses, PREFER to use "it" and the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION abi? Apart from the 4 above, which other translation uses "it" for the Rauch Ha Kodesh?

John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” --NWT (Jehovah's Witnesses) Bible.

Was Thomas blaspheming?

JMAN05:

It said that wisdom was produced, so saying it is talking about ordinary wisdom, will be saying that God lacked wisdom sometime ago. this is impossible.



I think your confusion is in "in the beginning" in john1:1. that place doesnt mean in the infinite past, but in the beginning of creating other things. ie except Jesus.

we have already been told that Jesus was produce (prov. . the description of john 1:1 found a similarity in collosians. we read.

Colossians 1:15-16 KJV
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This indicate that Jesus was the first to be created as Proverb also confirms. after his creation, God created other things through him.



Dont insert wisdom there, just say Jesus. because the wisdom there stands for Jesus. Ya, there was a time God was alone before He created Jesus as the above shows.

Who exactly were all things created for...God or Jesus?

JMAN05:

So I should keep answering what i ve answered before cos i no get job ba?

no, what i meant is just provide link back to where you tried explaining yourself. Will that be too hard for you.

@true2god i could not help myself to laf out load at your question to jman

Now going by ur teaching, that the personified wisdom of God, according to the text is Jesus. Ok let me ask you as simple question, is there any time that God was without wisdom

and here how jman answers

This indicate that Jesus was the first to be created as Proverb also confirms. after his creation, God created other things through him.

And

Dont insert wisdom there, just say Jesus. because the wisdom there stands for Jesus. Ya, there was a time God was alone before He created Jesus as the above shows.

jman dilema lol if he claims Christ (wisdom) was ONLY created at the beginning, it means God was "clueless" before creating Christ. If he claims wisdom (Christ) has always been wit God, it means Christ (wisdom) has always been with God thus He is ... A Person with God! Hehe hehe laf and enjoying this thread.

JMAN05:

Did that place show that inanimate things are often described as performing like animate things in the bible?

laffing so loudly. To true2god, you agree that Christ was wisdom in proverb, yet a Person but on another breath you claim that Holy Spirit is an "it" and impersonal thing! How laughable! Do you agree that wisdom is an "it", an impersonal thing?

When selections are made, one is given the holy spirit. whatever Jesus performed on the day Paul was appointed was accomplished thru the holy spirit. in that sense, the statement is fitting. the same is said about the apointment of overseers.

I am not here for debate, take note.

please stay on context, here it literarily said Holy Spirit said not Jesus!

italo: John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” --NWT (Jehovah's Witnesses) Bible.

Was Thomas blaspheming?

did i read the above correctly? This bible must be another mistake that needs to be changed again. Infact, this is italo's deceit at maligning the jw by quoting this trinity stuff out of NWT, LOL

truthislight:

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
(Colossians 1:18).

Jesus is the first from the death that Yahweh personally resurected to imortal heavenly life by himself and the last to be so resurrected by Yahweh personally, every other subsequent resurection will be done by Jesus christ.

That ^ is how Jesus is the first and the last.

Just look at the meaninglessness that you concocted up there... isnt it in black and white anymore?

You say Yahweh resurrected Jesus. Jesus says he would resurrect himself (Jonn 2:18, 19)

You say that Jesus resurrects everyone else. But God raises other people:

1 Cor 15:38 - But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body.

Acts 24:15 - Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.

1 Sam 2:6 - The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.

I hope it is clear to you that your explanation is massively flawed.

God is the first and the last.

Jesus is the first and the last.

Jesus is God, not Archangel Michael, as you say!

hisblud: did i read the above correctly? This bible must be another mistake that needs to be changed again. Infact, this is italo's deceit at maligning the jw by quoting this trinity stuff out of NWT, LOL

Of course, you should know they will soon change it to say something else.

hisblud: @true2god i could not help myself to laf out load at your question to jman and here how jman answers

jman dilema lol if he claims Christ (wisdom) was ONLY created at the beginning, it means God was "clueless" before creating Christ. If he claims wisdom (Christ) has always been wit God, it means Christ (wisdom) has always been with God thus He is ... A Person with God! Hehe hehe laf and enjoying this thread.

I wanted him to reconcile the wisdom in Proverb 8:22-30 with John 1:1-12 but he's dodgin as usual.

hisblud: good. So only 3 verses, PREFER to use "it" and the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION abi? Apart from the 4 above, which other translation uses "it" for the Rauch Ha Kodesh?

What is your interest, how it appear in greek or what translator chose to translate? You dont sound serious.

italo: John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” --NWT (Jehovah's Witnesses) Bible.

Was Thomas blaspheming?

Angels in the past were often referred to as if they were God in the past cos they represented God. The jews often do that. Compare Gen. 18:3

To clarify, see the last words:

John 20:31

31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that [b]Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, [/b]and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

italo:

Who exactly were all things created for...God or Jesus?

If you mean the bolded, then you misunderstood it. the "For" reads "because" in other translation, NW. It shows that after his creation, it was THROUGH him, that all other things were created. Even if it was created for him, the information I want to pass accross is that he was created, after which God created other things through him.

JMAN05:
Dont insert wisdom there, just say Jesus. because the wisdom there stands for Jesus. Ya, there was a time God was alone before He created Jesus as the above shows.

No brother, I am playing by your rule. You said wisdom, as used in proverbs 8:22-30, is talking about Jesus. In order words God's wisdom (which he used in creation from ages)=Jesus. So my question to u is this, had there been anytime this Wisdom had not been with the father? Remember Isaiah said God ALONE lay the foundation of the earth, no external support nor consultant. If God alone lay the foundation what role does God's wisdom play in laying this creation process?

And you will agree with me that God does not have ordinary and extra ordinary wisdom. God's wisdom is cannot be humanly described cos men's wisdom is nothing compare to God's.

Can u separate me from my wisdom? No! My wisdom is part and parcel of me that makes me a complete entity. Jesus (God's wisdom) said 'i am in the father and the father is in me'. I hope u get where i am going now (read Isaiah 9:6, Heb 1:8, John 1:1, 2tim 3:16).

hisblud: @true2god i could not help myself to laf out load at your question to jman and here how jman answers

jman dilema lol if he claims Christ (wisdom) was ONLY created at the beginning, it means God was "clueless" before creating Christ. If he claims wisdom (Christ) has always been wit God, it means Christ (wisdom) has always been with God thus He is ... A Person with God! Hehe hehe laf and enjoying this thread.

Kai, illiteracy to the highest order. Personification is the problem of this dull brains. Nawaoo, I prove my point and also teaching some people english in Nairaland o, God help me. Pls when an abstract object is personified, it means that the abstract object is there representing something else, this time Jesus. Remove that wisdom and replace it with Jesus, that is what wisdom personified implies. Jesus is that wisdom personified. If you did your figure of speech at school, I wont be lecturing you here.

I dont know whether your brain can capture this one. nawaooo

hisblud: laffing so loudly. To true2god, you agree that Christ was wisdom in proverb, yet a Person but on another breath you claim that Holy Spirit is an "it" and impersonal thing! How laughable! Do you agree that wisdom is an "it", an impersonal thing?



please stay on context, here it literarily said Holy Spirit said not Jesus!

1. Hard it been you exercised patience, your illiteracy wouldnt have been manifest.

2. Go and view your earlier comment before demanding I stay on context.

JMAN05:

It said that wisdom was produced, so saying it is talking about ordinary wisdom, will be saying that God lacked wisdom sometime ago. this is impossible.

Do u mean God has ordinary and non-ordinary wisdom? No! God never lack wisdom and the wisdom of God is Jesus (Prov 8:22).

Who created heaven and earth (Gen 1:1)? God created everything without any assistance or a third party. The Bible did not teach 'God created Jesus and Jesus created every other thing'. This is watchtower unbiblical teaching. John chapter 1 said all thing were made by him (God). This same Jesus was called the mighty God (capital 'G') by Isaiah 9:6, John introduced him as being with God the father from the begining (John 1:1), God himself called him God (heb 1:, God commaneded all angels (including angel michael ) to worship him (heb 1:6).

All this things will not make sense to u, until u close the watchtower magazines and open ur Bible only, as a final authority.

hisblud: did i read the above correctly? This bible must be another mistake that needs to be changed again. Infact, this is italo's deceit at maligning the jw by quoting this trinity stuff out of NWT, LOL

Sorry for you poor boy. Even if the explanation I gave to Italo wasnt given, your head wouldnt remember that Jesus can be called a god(Theos) and a lord?

hisblud: laffing so loudly. To true2god, you agree that Christ was wisdom in proverb, yet a Person but on another breath you claim that Holy Spirit is an "it" and impersonal thing! How laughable! Do you agree that wisdom is an "it", an impersonal thing?



please stay on context, here it literarily said Holy Spirit said not Jesus!

Ya, they interprete Bible at their own convenience.

The Bible described the Holy spirit as 'a tongue of fire', 'as a dove', 'as a mighty rushing wind', 'as a pillar of fire', depending on the circumstamces God wants him to function.

Jesus in his word said all sins are forgivable except sin against the Holy spirit. This means someone can sin against the Holy spirit. My brother u cant sin against electric current or battery (as JW describe the holy spirit ). Peter ask y ananais he choose to lie against the Holy spirit (acts 5:3-4). Can u lie against\to electric current? No. Paul said 'the Spirit bearin witness with our spirit'. Can electric current bear witness? No
In summary only a living bein can 'bear witness', 'be lied against\to', 'be sinned against', etc.

Where JW sees the Holy spirit as an electricity is baffling. All in a bid to debunk trinity at all cost. But wat they fail to understand is that their is only one , the father of all. The concept of trinity is espoused in teachin commission of baptising them in the name (not names) of the father(God) and of the son (Jesus) and of the holy spirit (the comforter). The three are one in purpose but different in identity. And many Bible verses rendered the deity of christ and the personality of the Holy spirit (the holy spirit said 'separate me paul and barnabas').

italo:

Just look at the meaninglessness that you concocted up there... isnt it in black and white anymore?

You say Yahweh resurrected Jesus. Jesus says he would resurrect himself (Jonn 2:18, 19)

You say that Jesus resurrects everyone else. But God raises other people:

1 Cor 15:38 - But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body.

Acts 24:15 - Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.

1 Sam 2:6 - The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.

I hope it is clear to you that your explanation is massively flawed.

God is the first and the last.

Jesus is the first and the last.

Jesus is God, not Archangel Michael, as you say!

It is so sad how you can reply without taking note of his reply, neither have you proving his statement as to the meaning of the first and last wrong.

At John 2, Jesus had faith in the prophesies uttered in the bible and his father that when he dies he will be resurrected, that was why he made that statement.

When the woman with the flow of blood touched Jesus and was made clean, Jesus said 'your faith has made you clean'. It wasnt just the faith that made her clean. In the same vein, Jesus could make such statement cos he has faith that he would be raised by his father. we read:

Acts 2:32

32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses

Ya, God is the one who gives life, but God is going to do the resurrection through His son, Jesus.

“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

God is equally spoken of as being the judge, but he delegated this work to His son. so when the son does these things, we can say it was the Father that did it cos He did the delegation.

You can never compare the Father to the Son if you are sincere to yourself. at least, Jesus doesnt know when the end will come and the Father keep giving him both commandment and authority. this would be pointless if he was equal to Him.

But you wont be sincere, you will better be in the dark than to see light. Your decision though!

true2god: I wanted him to reconcile the wisdom in Proverb 8:22-30 with John 1:1-12 but he's dodgin as usual.

Dodging?? my friend go sleep if you ve exhausted.

true2god: No brother, I am playing by your rule. You said wisdom, as used in proverbs 8:22-30, is talking about Jesus. In order words God's wisdom (which he used in creation from ages)=Jesus. So my question to u is this, had there been anytime this Wisdom had not been with the father? Remember Isaiah said God ALONE lay the foundation of the earth, no external support nor consultant. If God alone lay the foundation what role does God's wisdom play in laying this creation process?

And you will agree with me that God does not have ordinary and extra ordinary wisdom. God's wisdom is cannot be humanly described cos men's wisdom is nothing compare to God's.

Can u separate me from my wisdom? No! My wisdom is part and parcel of me that makes me a complete entity. Jesus (God's wisdom) said 'i am in the father and the father is in me'. I hope u get where i am going now (read Isaiah 9:6, Heb 1:8, John 1:1, 2tim 3:16).

I think, personification is still your problem that led to this pointless question. Go and learn the meaning, then repeat your question.

I ve explained that Isaiah that God stated that he was alone. the context is in reference to human made gods.

As for your 'I in the Father and the Father in me', read John 17:23 and see another I in them and ..., so God is 13 person in one according to your reasoning. The veil is still in you guys eyes.

@Italo

You have certain beliefs that is preventing you from seeying one basic truth, that the act of Going to heaven has not always been available befor the coming of Jesus christ,

infact, the act of Going to heaven is a new thing in Gods arrangement. Do you think that those that died befor Jesus death went to heaven ? No, they did not, the way to heaven was open by Jesus.

Infact, he promised it first to his disciples, that he has to first go and prepare a place for them.

If there was already a place for humans, why did he has to go first to "prepare a place" ?

Now, read this scriptures concerning Jesus statement in relation to his father and resurrection/judgement:

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. " (John 5:19-27).
...................................

Now, lets look into what you wrote below in the light of the scriptures above.

italo:

You say Yahweh resurrected Jesus. Jesus says he would resurrect himself (Jonn 2:18, 19)

you need to get the sense of that ^ scripture.
Read the below my friend:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:22-24).

It was God that resurrected Jesus.

italo:

You say that Jesus resurrects everyone else. But God raises other people:

it is like you did not understand what i had posted befor, i had said to "immortal heavenly life", all those resurrected people did not go to heaven, as such, there is a big difference between Jesus resurrection to heavenly life and their own resurrection.
Jesus kind of resurrection was something special and unique. No human have ever experience such befor > immortal heavenly resurrection.

italo:

1 Cor 15:38 - But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body.

what Jesus did was Yahweh's, since Jesus is Yahweh's representative. He is a messenger of Yahweh.

italo:

Acts 24:15 - Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.

all other heavenly resurrection is done by Jesus.

italo:
1 Sam 2:6 - The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.

none of the dead befor Jesus death went to heaven/immotality. So, it is not the same, Jesus is the first of its kind, and the last to be so resurrected.

italo:
I hope it is clear to you that your explanation is massively flawed.

Hehehehe, cool down
you did not understand what i had written.

italo:
God is the first and the last.

Yahweh is not the first from the dead and had no need to be resurrected.

italo:
Jesus is the first and the last.

Yes, first from the dead-colossians 2:18.
The last to be so resurrected to heavenly life by Yahweh to Immortal heavenly life.

italo:
Jesus is God, not Archangel Michael, as you say!

Hehehe, jesus is a messanger of Yahweh.

I keep on telling you to cool down, cool down, you will not agree, so, cool down.

true2god: Do u mean God has ordinary and non-ordinary wisdom? No! God never lack wisdom and the wisdom of God is Jesus (Prov 8:22).

Wisdom of God is Jesus. I dont think that is sensible, because that will mean that sometime in the past, God lacked wisdom because that verse specifically shows that that wisdom was produced/created. So you are the one whose reasoning defy your logic, not me. You see that now?

I never sad the verse is talking about literal wisdom, but Jesus. God's wisdom has always been there with Him, His wisdom is not Jesus. Without Jesus, God will still be wise.

Who created heaven and earth (Gen 1:1)? God created everything without any assistance or a third party.

Of course, even Jesus never claimed to be a creator, even though God used him to create certain things. When God use people to accomplish His work, the glory is given to Him, though the person He used can still be identified. But the praise goes to Him. Though people may heal, but often, the healers will say it was God that healed the person. You cant dismiss Col. 1:15-16. that Jesus had a part in creation, But as His Father is the chief pioneer, He is credited with being the creator.

The Bible did not teach 'God created Jesus and Jesus created every other thing'. This is watchtower unbiblical teaching. John chapter 1 said all thing were made by him (God).

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

1. what do you understand by the firstborn of all creation? compare Prov. 8:22

2. No, John said all things were made by Jesus, ie after his creation.

This same Jesus was called the mighty God (capital 'G') by Isaiah 9:6, John introduced him as being with God the father from the begining (John 1:1), God himself called him God (heb 1:, God commaneded all angels (including angel michael ) to worship him (heb 1:6).

1. capitalization is not found in the original. It is the concept of translators as english demands.

2. the beginning there is the beginning of creating other things. But this doesnt prove the trinity.

3. God didnt call him God, it is your wrong translation that you should jettison. Compare where the almighty is referred to as his (Jesus') God, Heb. 1:9, this substantiates the erroneous translation you have.

4. replace that worship with obeisance. You worship only God. Even Jesus acknowledged that without including himself. read Luke 4:8

If angel Michael is inferior to him, why will Jesus borrow his voice to command the dead to rise?

All this things will not make sense to u, until u close the watchtower magazines and open ur Bible only, as a final authority.

All things will be veiled to you until you choose the path of sincerity, and stop gullibility.

ALL what you ve been talking is Jesus and God, where did the holy spirit go? You still need to prove each and every one of them, where the holy spirit possesses similar quality to be consistent.

Answer me:

Does your almighty Jesus and holy spirit know when the end will come? Dont ignore this one o.

truthislight: @Italo

You have certain beliefs that is preventing you from seeying one basic truth, that the act of Going to heaven has not always been available befor the coming of Jesus christ,

infact, the act of Going to heaven is a new thing in Gods arrangement. Do you think that those that died befor Jesus death went to heaven ? No, they did not, the way to heaven was open by Jesus.

Infact, he promised it first to his disciples, that he has to first go and prepare a place for them.

If there was already a place for humans, why did he has to go first to "prepare a place" ?

Now, read this scriptures concerning Jesus statement in relation to his father and resurrection/judgement:

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. " (John 5:19-27).
...................................

Now, lets look into what you wrote below in the light of the scriptures above.



you need to get the sense of that ^ scripture.
Read the below my friend:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:22-24).

It was God that resurrected Jesus.



it is like you did not understand what i had posted befor, i had said to "immortal heavenly life", all those resurrected people did not go to heaven, as such, there is a big difference between Jesus resurrection to heavenly life and their own resurrection.
Jesus kind of resurrection was something special and unique. No human have ever experience such befor > immortal heavenly resurrection.


what Jesus did was Yahweh's, since Jesus is Yahweh's representative. He is a messenger of Yahweh.



all other heavenly resurrection is done by Jesus.



none of the dead befor Jesus death went to heaven/immotality. So, it is not the same, Jesus is the first of its kind, and the last to be so resurrected.




Hehehehe, cool down
you did not understand what i had written.




Yahweh is not the first from the dead and had no need to be resurrected.




Yes, first from the dead-colossians 2:18.
The last to be so resurrected to heavenly life by Yahweh to Immortal heavenly life.




Hehehe, jesus is a messanger of Yahweh.

I keep on telling you to cool down, cool down, you will not agree, so, cool down.

We will do our best to help them just to be fair, but if they keep hardening their heart then we let them be. it is there life, they are free to live it they like to live it, but none will say, 'I didnt see sound prove'.

italo: John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” --NWT (Jehovah's Witnesses) Bible.

Was Thomas blaspheming?

hmm the greek referred to Lord as KURIOS while God as THEOS. Thomas why call a created man, God? You are spoiling market for some people oh even their translators find it to HOT to retranslate. NWT need some retranslation sharparly

JMAN05:

What is your interest, how it appear in greek or what translator chose to translate? You dont sound serious.

laffing again, am asking you, again are they the only translations that pitifully refer to Rauch Ha Kodesh as an "it"?

italo: Russell lied to his followers Jesus would return in 1914.

When 1914 had come and gone, with no Jesus in sight, Russell modified his teachings and claimed Jesus had, in fact, returned to Earth, but that his return was invisible.

True or false?

@ italo, (only italo should respond to this querry pls )

i just saw this thread today,

and im picking just your very first allegation, and note pls that im not a jehovahs witnesses, but I am interested because i want someone to convince me and not beign myopic or adamant, but beyond all reasonable doubt, I am not here to defend the jehovahs witnesses, but to evaluate your claims and how substantial they are, and see to it wheather there was a publication of which you can make a full page available here on the thread or a PDF or even a screenshut ......where russel did actually said that

1, jesus had phisically return to the earth in 1914 and gone

JMAN05:

Angels in the past were often referred to as if they were God in the past cos they represented God. The jews often do that. Compare Gen. 18:3

To clarify, see the last words:

John 20:31

31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that [b]Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, [/b]and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

fail, no way, abeg oh, helep me laf. So believing in an angel, will afford me life. Lol. So this is one of the doctrine you feel other churches have not been following, that you have separated to follow? SMH. Italo, hmm thanks for opening this thread, affords me the opportunity to understand separated_from_christendom's major doctrines which they will soon change becos its a mistake. Lol

JMAN05:

Angels in the past were often referred to as if they were God in the past cos they represented God. The jews often do that. Compare Gen. 18:3

To clarify, see the last words:

John 20:31

31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that [b]Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, [/b]and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

seriously, this verse debunks your false doctrine that Yahshua was an angel

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." (Hebrews 1:1-2, 4).

Yahshua more better than angels in every way yet your failed organisation deemed it fit to uphold the nonsense doctrine that the blessed Lord Yahshua is equal to angel. How disgusting can your organisation be?