JMAN05:

Your ignoring my clear explanations doesnt remove the explanation, but will always keep you away from drawing a plausible argument.

how clear can this be...

I never sad the verse is talking about literal wisdom, but Jesus. God's wisdom has always been there with Him, His wisdom is not Jesus. Without Jesus, God will still be wise.

It was just too clear to warrant a statement as this

Personified Wisdom always wit Him yet He created personified Wisdom? Watchtower tinz, mistake manifestation. Achtung! Alert! Mistake correction committee take note.

hisblud: true even Yahshua claimed that He can do nothing except what the Father does. But when He healed the blind man from birth, the synagogue leaders said he should give glory to God and when He met Jesus, what did he do? oops. Oh Yahshua forgot that He was an angel and He is to direct that man to give worship to God just like this angel did but He as an angel received worship. is it right for an angel to receive worship? Hmm that "angel" must surely be so naughty?

JMAN05:

What is the hebrew/greek word for worship as the verse translated it? does that word exclusively mean worship? your answer.

My answer is WHY does your translation choose that when it comes to Yahshua, your NWT refuses to use WORSHIP but obeisance but for Demons, dragon, beast, image; it does not hesitate to use the word WORSHIP .... Could this be the doctrines of devils your NWT is promoting, since they prefer to honor demons, the dragon etc with WORSHIP but the risen Lord Yahshua, the wont honor Him with WORSHIP but obeisance? This sound strange!!! True2god etc is it not strange

consider the diagram below HOUSE and make your judge!

http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/new-world-translation-and-proskuneo-worship

JMAN05:

That Heb. 1:8 is a quotation from which hebrew scripture?

You mean ps 45:6?

JMAN05:
and who was it applied to in that hebrew scripture? Jesus or a human?

If you mean ps 45:6

Psalm 45:6
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

It was used for Human

And does that make that human God almighty?

those questions will handle your little knowledge.

My answer

before vs 9 we have verse 8...lets see verse 8 in comparison to 9.

Heb 1:8

8 But unto the Son -the Son a human- he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Heb 1:9

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV


V9a

Question: Who has loved righteousness and hated iniquity?
Answer: The Son in vs 8

vs9b

Question: Who had anointed the Son with the oil of gladness above the Son's fellows?
Answer: God of Course!

Now take the Son and God in vs 9 and apply to verse 8....

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Question: Who was spoken of in vs8a,
Answer: The Son

Question: Who was speaking of the Son?
Answer: God vs 1

Question: What did God speak about the Son?
Answer: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever!

Simples

JMAN05:

Jesus statement that worship belongs only to God is an indication that when that hebrew/greek word applies to any faithful human/angel, not a god worshipped by others, the meaning will not be worship cos it belongs only to God as Jesus said. Jesus said it himself without including himself. After all if he were God, satan wouldnt tempt him on the matter of worship cos he will know that he is the one who enjoy worship from others. secondly Jesus wouldnt have said you should worship only God, he would rather have applied the scripture to himself direct, "it is written, you must worship me".

Give us scriptures for the above

JMAN05:

What is the hebrew/greek word for worship? what is its basic meaning?

The word "proskuneo" means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship."

JMAN05:

just like the apostles had wrong expectation, which never mean their thought always fail.

Watch very fine and see that you ve not been able to prove your doctrine. even there will be an increased light, your position is never the logical leap cos its poor.

oops... before He was raised to the right hand of the Father... yes they had false expectation... but after His resurrection and exalted to the right hand of the Father.... NEVER... are your jehovah witness before or after the resurrection of Christ?

According to JW, angels can worship arch-angel micheal cos he is a special angel that God had reserve for worship. Unfortunately thats a wrong teaching.

JMAN05:

chai, just to ease the shame of no proves. take it easy oo, ur bp is rising.

hehe is it becos i stated it that your bp rose... challenge Him to prove it... other wise it can be true

JMAN05:

No need to show you. You ve ignore most of my comments that could have answered your question.

1. what in the definition of that your colleague best defines neuter pronoun?

2. check Rotherham word for word interlinear and tell me what it says. by the time you confirm it in the original and you still doubt. that is your decision and choice of life. You will never say, you didnt hear. I ve tried to buttress my point. but this time, i will invite you guys to engage in the research with me to confirm it yourself. If anyone refuse, I know he didnt come for truth but ridicule.

So give me answers to those questions lets start the research together.

Simples... will you now post your NWT of jn 14:17 lets see before we go to your interlinear... you know it will help us, except you are accenting that there is need for correction of mistakes in your NWT ....

JMAN05: It is really sad that some wont admit there mistake cos of pride. true2god please come and tell me that you guys never had wrong predictions. I have more erroneous prediction which i have researched about. this is another test of your sincerity.

Italo you believe that christ 1000years have already began. and that the book of revelation which is a future prophesy fulfilled in the past about mary? Catholics still made predictions of the fall of protestants in the 19th century. heh! has prostestantism failed? yet they are infallible.

Hisbun please tell us the name of your church. I wont respond to you until you tell me. You guys are so insincere and you are here criticising people who admit there mistakes.

YES i attend [size=18pt] ECWA CHURCH..[/size]. but we have not predicted the coming of Christ, we dont have our own separate bible for reference... so show me the church i attend, their mistakes... and one more thing, i personally speak in tongues and believe in the divinity of Christ.... so we can continue the discussion ko!

hisblud:



My answer is WHY does your translation choose that when it comes to Yahshua, your NWT refuses to use WORSHIP but obeisance but for Demons, dragon, beast, image; it does not hesitate to use the word WORSHIP .... Could this be the doctrines of devils your NWT is promoting, since they prefer to honor demons, the dragon etc with WORSHIP but the risen Lord Yahshua, the wont honor Him with WORSHIP but obeisance? This sound strange!!! True2god etc is it not strange

consider the diagram below HOUSE and make your judge!

http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/new-world-translation-and-proskuneo-worship

Food for thought. The light is getting brighter everyday on who and wat the JW teach and represent.

hisblud:



My answer is WHY does your translation choose that when it comes to Yahshua, your NWT refuses to use WORSHIP but obeisance but for Demons, dragon, beast, image; it does not hesitate to use the word WORSHIP .... Could this be the doctrines of devils your NWT is promoting, since they prefer to honor demons, the dragon etc with WORSHIP but the risen Lord Yahshua, the wont honor Him with WORSHIP but obeisance? This sound strange!!! True2god etc is it not strange

consider the diagram below HOUSE and make your judge!

http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/new-world-translation-and-proskuneo-worship

Frankly speaking, I need a response hear pls.

Emusan:

Only thing to point out is not consider equality with God! Ok but so other versions. so you mean your church own does not too correct?

My friend read that comment very well. I dont want to waist my time explaining what you can understand if you read well. i said 'more correct than... 9did the following sentence correspond with the rendering in NWT?

Do Angels have form of God? No! Angel have their form/nature likewise do humans, but Jesus has this nature/form of God no two meaning to this verse.

It is true that Christ possessing God's nature means that he has more of God's qualities than other angels, but they all possess the same divine nature. This same nature of Jesus, the saints will possess.

Your point on greater is baseless because the word "Greater" applies only in position not in nature.

That is what I am saying, that we have the same nature, doesnt mean we are in the same position, does it? It doesnt also mean that we have the same natural gift.

This is where you missed it the most, Jesus appeared in FULLY HUMAN BUT WAS EMPOWERED through the spirit of Father to acheive all His work on earth. This is what the next verse is saying that He EMPTIED/DENIES HIMSELF of all the privileges that makes Him God in other to take on the NATURE OF HUMAN try to reread those verses for clear understanding.

You are correct partly, but being human, isnt it another form? If it is another form, then what I am saying is that his being a human does not make him equal to all humans, lets say in knowledge, aptitute, skill etc. Now if I may understand your point, You are saying that he had that advantage due to the empowerment of God's spirit. But that he got an empowerment from the Father didnt change his nature, human. he didnt become a spirit, he was still a human. Even without such empowerment from the Father, he will have something that makes him differ from another human.

You have the same nature with your dad. no doubt you exhibit your dad's qualities so much than you brothers. But that does not mean you have the same knowledge with your father, you still do not have the same authority with him. He gave birth to you. In the same vein, God created Jesus and has greater authority than his.

This is where you should look at it,
God has Its own nature...
Angels have theirs too...
Likewise Human...
Jesus never existed in form of Angel but of God while He was in Heaven also He never took on Him the nature of Angel on earth but was made to be like unto His brethen.

Take your time to read that Phil 2:6-8 very well,

Shalom!

I clearly understand your point. I hope the above will help.

true2god: Jesus was speaking about himself. 1thessalonain 4:16 says 'the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump call of God, and the dead in christ shall rise first, (verse 17) after that, we who are alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we be with the Lord forever'.

The key word u r interested in is 'with the voice of the archangel'. So lemme explain watchtower wont want u believe.

The coming of the Lord with be with the company of large numbers of angels and the trump call of God. The archangel's voice will herald his coming and the subsequent ressurection of the death while the living will be caught-up in the air to meet the Lord. This is what an average xtain decribe as rapture,tho'watchtower do not believe in it, they only believe in 'the voice of the archangel'. Can u see hw funny they are.

The Bible is not vague here, Hebrews 1:5 says :for which of the angels did God ever say 'You are my son, today i have become ur father...?'. I am sure ur response is 'NONE'. Is an archangel and angel? I am sure ur response will be 'YES'.

The accountant general of the federation is still an accountant, he can be replaced if he fails to perform. An archangel can be replaced, u will agree with me. If Jesus is an an archangel as u claim, then he can be replaced. But, concerning the son, the father says in heb 1:8 'Your throne , O God is, will last for ever and ever and righteosness will be the scepter of your kingdom'.

Christ's throne is forever.

I dont want to divert the discussion to rapture. Good you ve identified that it is Jesus' voice that will raise the dead. How then will Jesus come with that voice and you dodge and shift it to another person? You said Jesus will be replaced? No bible support for that. God's prophesy always fulfills, it wont change cos of you. Jesus was described as the one coming and with that his voice as he stated at John 5:28, 29. It will be hilarious to say he borrowed a lower angel's voice, wouldnt it?

For the Hebrews, let me move to your next response.

true2god: Pls clarify.

In that hebrew, Paul was quoting a hebrew scripture from Psalms. My question is, Who was that Psalm first applied to? who did the writer of that psalm apply it to before Paul quoted it? Did that person become God?

hisblud:

Ok grandMaster... here is your answer from a "babae" in greek/hebrew

In hebrew,

[size=18pt]Angel is mee'2lohiym

Human gods like moses is '2lohiym

But only God is referred to as Elohim [/size]

Oga, I dont know where you got that hebrew word for angel from. Go for another assignment. get the hebrew word for angel. that thing you gave above is not the hebrew word.

Oga I really dont know how to help you. You even have the moral to color and magnify your error. go for another research and check whether Gen 4:16 and Isaiah 45:18 are the same hebrew words, ie the 'God' there. We are learning. I will not be the one to do the search alone. Because if I tell you that they are the same now, you will call it JW teaching.

hisblud:

Hoho, now the Jehovah Witness bible New World Translation (NWT) needs to be corrected ....



Thus your poor translators were NEVER real hebrew/Greek translator to have capitalised the above verse... or were they Pro- Diety of Christ while you were left behind... deceiving you... dont you think your Bible translators were gullible to allow that verse be rendered as above?

I have explained this before. The jews often refer to the one they recognize as God's representative as if he himself was God. to the extent that they will call him Jehovah. Thomas response should be capitalized cos he could have said it as what the jews often do. but at times english grammar may detect that you capitalize. But this doesnt make for a good scholarly argument. For good bible scholars, they are aware that in the original there were no differentiation in case as we see in english.

hisblud:

how clear can this be...

It was just too clear to warrant a statement as this

Meaning that you didnt understand my explanation?

hisblud:

You mean ps 45:6?



If you mean ps 45:6



It was used for Human




My answer


Simples

Now this is simply. hence the first application was made to a human, not Christ, maybe Solomon, did the fact that the words of the Psamist apply to Solomon mean that Solomon is God almighty? Your answer?

I want to respond to your reply about "worship". I dont know why it refused to quote.

1. You have tried by showing that the word does not always mean worship.

Now, why do we use worship exclussively for God in TRUE WORSHIP? please mark the bolded.

Because Jesus and the scripture said:

8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service

So we now established that in true worship, the word "worship" should be picked for him alone.

Now in false worship or any worship unapproved by God, we can still use worship because this is talking about another aspect of worship. for eg, if we consistently use "obeisance" even in false worship, what sense will it make to the reader when he come across a place that said "those who pay obeisance to baal" instead of "those who worship baal". Because false worship is talking about another form of devotion which will not be misunderstood as it would when you say the same of a faithful servant of God. when you attach worship for baal, people will understand that you mean false worship, but when you attach it to a faithful worshipper of God, it will contradict Luke 4:8. that is why the translation made that choice.

hisblud:

oops... before He was raised to the right hand of the Father... yes they had false expectation... but after His resurrection and exalted to the right hand of the Father.... NEVER... are your jehovah witness before or after the resurrection of Christ?

They didnt understand everything even after the holy spirit came. some prophecies become clear when its fulfilment approach. analyze Paul's words at 1 cor. 13:8-

Peter at first didnt understand the idea of welcoming gentiles into true worship. it took time for it to be clear to them. True, they had much knowledge and made less mistake as we did, but this was because they were inspired. we are not.

hisblud:

Simples... will you now post your NWT of jn 14:17 lets see before we go to your interlinear... you know it will help us, except you are accenting that there is need for correction of mistakes in your NWT ....

Check it.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/binav/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013

hisblud:

YES i attend [size=18pt] ECWA CHURCH..[/size]. but we have not predicted the coming of Christ, we dont have our own separate bible for reference... so show me the church i attend, their mistakes... and one more thing, i personally speak in tongues and believe in the divinity of Christ.... so we can continue the discussion ko!

So you speak gibberish and you can't translate Greek/Hebrew? well, good I now know your church. just hold what you belief, this so called miracle churches annoy me the most. because claiming you are inspired and yet having false teaching is the greatest profaning of God's name . another so called inspired church will still teach another contradictory thing. which spirit is distributing this contradictory doctrine? the same spirit?

true2god: Food for thought. The light is getting brighter everyday on who and wat the JW teach and represent.

You know you have not clarified your wrong prediction?

JMAN05:

You know you have not clarified your wrong prediction?

I am not aware that Assemblies of God made any prediction concerning 1914. If they do, they are wrong.

All the failed predictions of JW, watchtower will never accept they are wrong, they will rather blame thier 'publishers' for bein over-zealous.

JMAN05:

I dont want to divert the discussion to rapture. Good you ve identified that it is Jesus' voice that will raise the dead. How then will Jesus come with that voice and you dodge and shift it to another person? You said Jesus will be replaced? No bible support for that. God's prophesy always fulfills, it wont change cos of you. Jesus was described as the one coming and with that his voice as he stated at John 5:28, 29. It will be hilarious to say he borrowed a lower angel's voice, wouldnt it?

For the Hebrews, let me move to your next response.

I knw u have been programmed by the watchtower organization never to believe anything outside their falsehood.

If u read my response again u will realize that i said that the descension of the Lord will be heralded by an arch-angel voice. Dont lie on a electronic media.

The book of Heb 1:6 of ur NWT says 'let ALL angels do obeisance to him'. ALL angels without an exception (includin angel michael). Okay lemme ask u a question, is angel Michael not among all the angels?

Dont let the lies from watchtower stop u from comprehending a simple verse.

Ok JMAN05, did God subject the world to any angel (Heb 2:5)?

true2god: I am not aware that Assemblies of God made any prediction concerning 1914. If they do, they are wrong.

All the failed predictions of JW, watchtower will never accept they are wrong, they will rather blame thier 'publishers' for bein over-zealous.

You are not aware even when you were noticed, why do you have your awareness travel suddenly when faced with this facts, see the facts as it rolls out, the wiki link beneath;

Assemblies of God Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions#Assemblies_of_God_Church

During World War I, 1914–1918 The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction:

"We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be, if students of prophecy read the signs aright, that Christ will come before the present war closes, and before Armageddon...The war preliminary to Armageddon, it seems, has commenced.

After the prophecy failed, and then, Assemblies of God's light gets brigther and brigther, they see more prophecies,

"Other editions of Weekly Evangel of April 10, 1917 edition, page 3 speculated that the end would come no later than 1934 1935.

May 13, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

Are your church's leaders false prophets or not? im not saying that maybe the are wrong or you admitting that they are wrong, but are they reliable? even when May 13 of weekly evangel, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

answer please, im not a lawyer as you try to sell, concentrate on the topic

false prophet yes or no

true2god: I am not aware that Assemblies of God made any prediction concerning 1914. If they do, they are wrong.

All the failed predictions of JW, watchtower will never accept they are wrong, they will rather blame thier 'publishers' for bein over-zealous.

You are not aware even when you were noticed, why do you have your awareness travel suddenly when faced with this facts, see the facts as it rolls out, the wiki link beneath;

Assemblies of God Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions#Assemblies_of_God_Church

During World War I, 1914–1918 The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction:

"We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be, if students of prophecy read the signs aright, that Christ will come before the present war closes, and before Armageddon...The war preliminary to Armageddon, it seems, has commenced.

After the prophecy failed, and then, Assemblies of God's light gets brigther and brigther, they see more prophecies,

"Other editions of Weekly Evangel of April 10, 1917 edition, page 3 speculated that the end would come no later than 1934 1935.

May 13, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

Are your church's leaders false prophets or not? im not saying that maybe the are wrong or you admitting that they are wrong, but are they reliable? even when May 13 of weekly evangel, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

answer please, im not a lawyer as you try to sell, concentrate on the topic

false prophet yes or no

BERNIMOORE:

You are not aware even when you were noticed, why do you have your awareness travel suddenly when faced with this facts, see the facts as it rolls out, the wiki link beneath;

Assemblies of God Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions#Assemblies_of_God_Church

During World War I, 1914–1918 The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction:

"We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be, if students of prophecy read the signs aright, that Christ will come before the present war closes, and before Armageddon...The war preliminary to Armageddon, it seems, has commenced.

After the prophecy failed, and then, Assemblies of God's light gets brigther and brigther, they see more prophecies,

"Other editions of Weekly Evangel of April 10, 1917 edition, page 3 speculated that the end would come no later than 1934 1935.

May 13, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

Are your church's leaders false prophets or not? im not saying that maybe the are wrong or you admitting that they are wrong, but are they reliable? even when May 13 of weekly evangel, 1916 pp 6–9 prophecy future date after previous ones failed

answer please, im not a lawyer as you try to sell, concentrate on the topic

false prophet yes or no

I didnt say u r a lawyer but ur second ID on nairaland is BARRISTER. Stop playing prank.

The link u provided mentioned failed predictions made by churches, Assemblies of God and JW inclusive. But u will agree with me that many AG member are not even aware that such predictions were made and will readily accept mistakes made in their article. Can watchtower accept that their 1914 official doctrine is wrong? No.

I can tell u that those members that made the publications of 1914 were not led by the Spirit, so they got it wrong. Can u, as a JW correct ur leader for making mistakes, be it false prediction or false teachin? No, u will be disfellowshipped. Do u see the difference?

you said that you are not aware that assemblies of God church made false prediction precisely in june this year when i showed you same facts im showing you now, on this thread

https://www.nairaland.com/1318212/firstborn-does-it-mean-first/7

who is lying now? are you aware or not? i still maintain my stand.

because i refer you a link where barrister dealt with you and exposed you and your religion as an AG, .https://www.nairaland.com/1103279/michael-archangel-really-jesus-revelation/10

you were not comfortable

when you ask me and i said yes he my brother, and i learned a lot from him, he sends me pdfs and microsoft word documents.

does that makes me to be him? no sir, barrister type mostly in capital letters. why would he or i need to change id? we are different persons, you so diverting on this will not save you from your hypocrisy, YOU are on the hot seat now

and lastly i have said it over and over again that im not a jehovahs witnesses. but if their point is legitimate nothing stops me from supporting them.

can we move now

The link u provided mentioned failed predictions made by churches, Assemblies of God and JW inclusive. But u will agree with me that many AG member are not even aware that such predictions were made and will readily accept mistakes made in their article

.

you are lying, they did not accept their mistake after 1914 came and pass, they prophecy other years as you can see above, in may 1916 they made mention of 1935 and 1936 respectively so tell me the time when they render a public apology and said that sorry 'we made a mistake apart from what you are saying based on your personal opinion that they are wrong, who cares what you think? its assembly of God failure and problem rather they shamefully empowered fraudsters of prophets like morris cerullo who was just making false miracles and was exposed and banned in usa not to perform sections on tv

BERNIMOORE:

@ italo, (only italo should respond to this querry pls )

i just saw this thread today,

and im picking just your very first allegation, and note pls that im not a jehovahs witnesses, but I am interested because i want someone to convince me and not beign myopic or adamant, but beyond all reasonable doubt, I am not here to defend the jehovahs witnesses, but to evaluate your claims and how substantial they are, and see to it wheather there was a publication of which you can make a full page available here on the thread or a PDF or even a screenshut ......where russel did actually said that

1, jesus had phisically return to the earth in 1914 and gone

First, you have to show me where I said the bold.

BERNIMOORE:

@ italo, (only italo should respond to this querry pls )

i just saw this thread today,

and im picking just your very first allegation, and note pls that im not a jehovahs witnesses, but I am interested because i want someone to convince me and not beign myopic or adamant, but beyond all reasonable doubt, I am not here to defend the jehovahs witnesses, but to evaluate your claims and how substantial they are, and see to it wheather there was a publication of which you can make a full page available here on the thread or a PDF or even a screenshut ......where russel did actually said that

1, jesus had phisically return to the earth in 1914 and gone

First, you have to show me where I said the bold.

Here's my post which you quoted below:

italo: Russell lied to his followers Jesus would return in 1914.

When 1914 had come and gone, with no Jesus in sight, Russell modified his teachings and claimed Jesus had, in fact, returned to Earth, but that his return was invisible.

True or false?

italo:

First, you have to show me where I said the bold.

Here's my post which you quoted below:

italo: Russell lied to his followers Jesus would return in 1914.

When 1914 had come and gone, with no Jesus in sight, Russell modified his teachings and claimed Jesus had, in fact, returned to Earth, but that his return was invisible.

True or false?

my point here is that; before you can say that somebody lied, especially when you say in your own post that "with no Jesus in sight"

here is it;

the bolded phrase in your own post above "with no Jesus in sight" means that russel before 1914 prediction according to you was talking earlier about phisical appearance of jesus , because he (russel) would be sighted

did russel teach that jesus will be sighted phisically in 1914? or he had always meant invisible ever before 1914? show evidences you have, or if you dont mean that then we move to next allegation

i only want to see a captured magazine of which russel actually did say that jesus will be sighted phisically in 1914. produce it, or if you mean otherwise