hisblud: seriously, this verse debunks your false doctrine that Yahshua was an angel Yahshua more better than angels in every way yet your failed organisation deemed it fit to uphold the nonsense doctrine that the blessed Lord Yahshua is equal to angel. How disgusting can your organisation be?

im not a jehovahs witnesses, so

can you read read the 'only' condition that made jesus better than the angels above? see the bolded,

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath [size=18pt]by inheritance[/size] obtained a more excellent name than they." (Hebrews 1:1-2, 4).

it was'nt by default that jesus was better than the angels, but as the firstborn of Gods sons, he was the only angel/messenger/servant of God to pass through different stages 1, as an invisible beign to 2, a visible beign and then 'he died' which no angel did, and was ressurected and back to the heaven

you know that angels too were called using the phrase 'Gods sons' (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Psalms 29:1; 89:6) they were Gods sons by default

how do you see that?

JMAN05:

Sorry for you poor boy. Even if the explanation I gave to Italo wasnt given, your head wouldnt remember that Jesus can be called a god(Theos) and a lord?

oops, i feel so sorry for your blind allegiance. If italo could quote verbatim your translation as My Lord and My God, and post it here, you should have first of all pointed out that the verse literarily in NWT was this - my lord and my god. But nada, but you deliberately want to fix you idea on something literarily copied from your organisation bible. SMH Please in your NWT is it written thus My Lord and My God or my lord and my god? ; D

Yooguyz:

PRE- 1914 QUOTES

"The year A.D. 1878 … clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of
kings, by our present, spiritual,invisible Lord - …" The Time is At
Hand (1911 ed) p.239

@ youguys

to start with some of your quotes

Above quote of yours (31 words in sequences above)

are those words presented 'in just the same order that you put them above same with the jehovahs witnesses publication you quoted, or you have deleted some words and leaving some to butress another point different from theirs?

yes or no?

@true2God

you are a member of the Assemblies Of God church, i have all the facts, the pdf and screenshut of your discussions from someone,

i dont want to derail the thread, but i want you to come out with a clean hand before you attack another organisation of something you are guilty of.

so answer this;

did your church Assemblies Of God church prophecy armaggedon in 1914, and then changed to a latter date when armageddon did not come?

and again,

your weekly journal 'weekly evangel' of the assemblies of God evidently show all these changes, even in wikipedia

true or false?

just say that im wrong!

we have a long way to go here!

I never sad the verse is talking about literal wisdom, but Jesus. God's wisdom has always been there with Him, His wisdom is not Jesus. Without Jesus, God will still be wise.

confusion mode 3! Personified Wisdom always wit Him yet He created personified Wisdom? Watchtower tinz, mistake manifestation. Achtung! Alert! Mistake correction committee take note.

1. capitalization is not found in the original. It is the concept of translators as english demands.

capitalisation not in greek, yet your NWT deemed it fit to capitalise this

John 20.28
28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.” (NWT)

mistake correction committee take note. That "book" needs some real mistake correction, its editors needs some anti-Christ retraining. Hmm what were their translators doing? translating and CAPITALIZING like the other trinitarian bibles which are baised towards the trinity than the AT, ED translations.

Of course, even Jesus never claimed to be a creator, even though God used him to create certain things. When God use people to accomplish His work, the glory is given to Him, though the person He used can still be identified. But the praise goes to Him. Though people may heal, but often, the healers will say it was God that healed the person.

true even Yahshua claimed that He can do nothing except what the Father does. But when He healed the blind man from birth, the synagogue leaders said he should give glory to God and when He met Jesus, what did he do?

"And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him." (John 9:38).

oops. Oh Yahshua forgot that He was an angel and He is to direct that man to give worship to God just like this angel did

"Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." (Revelation 22:9).

but He as an angel received worship. is it right for an angel to receive worship? Hmm that "angel" must surely be so naughty?

JMAN05:

Sorry for you poor boy. Even if the explanation I gave to Italo wasnt given, your head wouldnt remember that Jesus can be called a god(Theos) and a lord?

oops, i feel so sorry for your blind allegiance. If italo could quote verbatim your translation as My Lord and My God, and post it here, you should have first of all pointed out that the verse literarily in NWT was this - my lord and my god. But nada, but you deliberately want to fix you idea on something literarily copied from your organisation bible. SMH Please in your NWT is it written thus My Lord and My God or my lord and my god?

3. God didnt call him God, it is your wrong translation that you should jettison. Compare where the almighty is referred to as his (Jesus') God, Heb. 1:9, this substantiates the erroneous translation you have.

hmm go here and read how its shown that before v9 there is v8 which shows that God calls Yahshua God. Frank4yahweh failed to prove otherwise even using the initial verse ps 45.6 which debunked his "error-free" translations , later he rejected them. https://www.nairaland.com/1341369/anti-deity-yahshua-please-kindly-frosbel/17#17889927

4. replace that worship with obeisance. You worship only God. Even Jesus acknowledged that without including himself. read Luke 4:8

on whose authority am i to replace the word worship? Apart from your NWT, which bible translate worship as obesiance? Fact: jw are baised, anywhere Jesus is mentioned and worshipped, the use the word "obesiance", but devils and demons etc, they allow the word "worship"! Hmm, interesting doctrinal that we should follow. SMH

JEHOVAH WITNESS VS NEW WORLD TRANSLATION - hmm interesting battle

Shalom

JMAN05:

We will do our best to help them just to be fair, but if they keep hardening their heart then we let them be. it is there life, they are free to live it they like to live it, but none will say, 'I didnt see sound prove'.

am sure the early followers of the failed prediction said this of others until the recant their failed prediction. We de wait oh for the next big mistake correction.

BERNIMOORE: @true2God

you are a member of the Assemblies Of God church, i have all the facts, the pdf and screenshut of your discussions from someone,

i dont want to derail the thread, but i want you to come out with a clean hand before you attack another organisation of something you are guilty of.

so answer this;

did your church Assemblies Of God church prophecy armaggedon in 1914, and then changed to a latter date when armageddon did not come?

and again,

your weekly journal 'weekly evangel' of the assemblies of God evidently show all these changes, even in wikipedia

true or false?

just say that im wrong!

we have a long way to go here!

Welcome Barrister, long time. On my way to the office, will trash ur falsehood later.

As a take away is Jesus angel michael?

BERNIMOORE:

im not a jehovahs witnesses, so

can you read read the 'only' condition that made jesus better than the angels above? see the bolded,

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath [size=18pt]by inheritance[/size] obtained a more excellent name than they." (Hebrews 1:1-2, 4).

it was'nt by default that jesus was better than the angels, but as the firstborn of Gods sons, he was the only angel/messenger/servant of God to pass through different stages 1, as an invisible beign to 2, a visible beign and then 'he died' which no angel did, and was ressurected and back to the heaven

you know that angels too were called using the phrase 'Gods sons' (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Psalms 29:1; 89:6) they were Gods sons by default

how do you see that?

Do angels deserve worship?

JMAN05:

We will do our best to help them just to be fair, but if they keep hardening their heart then we let them be. it is there life, they are free to live it they like to live it, but none will say, 'I didnt see sound prove'.

I've compiled these verses for you and your Co who rejected the deity of Yehshua in different versions including yours.

AMP: Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!


ESV: who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


KJV: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


NASB: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

NIV: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!


CJB: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are.
8 And when he appeared as a human being, he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death -death on a stake as a criminal!

NWT: 6 "Who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Both agreed that Jesus exists in the form God, AMP inserted (possessing all fullness that makes God God) for simple logic.

What did you understand from these verses especially verse 6?

Verse6 talks about His early life.
Verse7 talks about the process of His incarnation into human.
Verse8 talks about His obedient.

Nobody ever called anyone who wasnt God, "God." Not even Iin Gen 18:3 that you mentioned.

Thomas called Jesus "God" so he is God.

Drowning man...you're still deperately clinging to any straw.

JMAN05:

Angels in the past were often referred to as if they were God in the past cos they represented God. The jews often do that. Compare Gen. 18:3

To clarify, see the last words:

John 20:31

31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that [b]Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, [/b]and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

You didn't mention who was with God na...

God said he was alone, you say "someone" was with him.

That someone no get name?

JMAN05:

call a translator if you dont understand english.

If all things were created for Jesus (and they were), then Jesus is God because God said all things were created for himself

Again, you don fail.

JMAN05:

If you mean the bolded, then you misunderstood it. the "For" reads "because" in other translation, NW. It shows that after his creation, it was THROUGH him, that all other things were created. Even if it was created for him, the information I want to pass accross is that he was created, after which God created other things through him.

hisblud:

Do angels deserve worship?

According to JW, angels can worship arch-angel micheal cos he is a special angel that God had reserve for worship. Unfortunately thats a wrong teaching.

In order to solidify the point, arch-angel michael must be Jesus christ. The Bible however did not teach that, but watchtower does. All God's angel, angel michael inclusive, should worship the son (Heb 1:6).

Lie lie don start.

First you said angels were treated as if they were God. Now you try to make the word mean "a god."

Does Thomas then treat Jesus as God by calling him "a god." Never.

The Greek clearly shows Thomas called Jesus "My God!"

Even your fraudulent organization hasnt found a way to change the Greek from "My God" to "a god."

JMAN05 is a step ahead of the Watchtower society in lies and deceit.

JMAN05:

Sorry for you poor boy. Even if the explanation I gave to Italo wasnt given, your head wouldnt remember that Jesus can be called a god(Theos) and a lord?

Like you said, its in black and white.

Your explanation of first and last holds no water.

God is the first and the last.

Jesus is the first and the last.

Jesus is God.

truthislight: @Italo

You have certain beliefs that is preventing you from seeying one basic truth, that the act of Going to heaven has not always been available befor the coming of Jesus christ,

infact, the act of Going to heaven is a new thing in Gods arrangement. Do you think that those that died befor Jesus death went to heaven ? No, they did not, the way to heaven was open by Jesus.

Infact, he promised it first to his disciples, that he has to first go and prepare a place for them.

If there was already a place for humans, why did he has to go first to "prepare a place" ?

Now, read this scriptures concerning Jesus statement in relation to his father and resurrection/judgement:

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. " (John 5:19-27).
...................................

Now, lets look into what you wrote below in the light of the scriptures above.



you need to get the sense of that ^ scripture.
Read the below my friend:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:22-24).

It was God that resurrected Jesus.



it is like you did not understand what i had posted befor, i had said to "immortal heavenly life", all those resurrected people did not go to heaven, as such, there is a big difference between Jesus resurrection to heavenly life and their own resurrection.
Jesus kind of resurrection was something special and unique. No human have ever experience such befor > immortal heavenly resurrection.


what Jesus did was Yahweh's, since Jesus is Yahweh's representative. He is a messenger of Yahweh.



all other heavenly resurrection is done by Jesus.



none of the dead befor Jesus death went to heaven/immotality. So, it is not the same, Jesus is the first of its kind, and the last to be so resurrected.




Hehehehe, cool down
you did not understand what i had written.




Yahweh is not the first from the dead and had no need to be resurrected.




Yes, first from the dead-colossians 2:18.
The last to be so resurrected to heavenly life by Yahweh to Immortal heavenly life.




Hehehe, jesus is a messanger of Yahweh.

I keep on telling you to cool down, cool down, you will not agree, so, cool down.

I dey come, i go give you quotes my MB is too low for me to be searching now. Patience.

BERNIMOORE:

@ italo, (only italo should respond to this querry pls )

i just saw this thread today,

and im picking just your very first allegation, and note pls that im not a jehovahs witnesses, but I am interested because i want someone to convince me and not beign myopic or adamant, but beyond all reasonable doubt, I am not here to defend the jehovahs witnesses, but to evaluate your claims and how substantial they are, and see to it wheather there was a publication of which you can make a full page available here on the thread or a PDF or even a screenshut ......where russel did actually said that

1, jesus had phisically return to the earth in 1914 and gone

Was Angel Michael existing in the form of God?

Emusan:

I've compiled these verses for you and your Co who rejected the deity of Yehshua in different versions including yours.

AMP: Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!


ESV: who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


KJV: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


NASB: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

NIV: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!


CJB: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are.
8 And when he appeared as a human being, he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death -death on a stake as a criminal!

NWT: 6 "Who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Both agreed that Jesus exists in the form God, AMP inserted (possessing all fullness that makes God God) for simple logic.

What did you understand from these verses especially verse 6?

Verse6 talks about His early life.
Verse7 talks about the process of His incarnation into human.
Verse8 talks about His obedient.

italo: I dey come, i go give you quotes my MB is too low for me to be searching now. Patience.

Guy u better dont waste ur preciou time and MB looking for any PDF or proof. Give him the date, year of the publication and the page number. Let him do his research himself cos he will tell u another thing.

His name is BARRISTER in another moniker, so he is not a new friend to me on Nairaland.

italo: Was Angel Michael existing in the form of God?

Thats a nice question but expect another mega-twist or lie cos u will surely get a response albeit wrong and irrelevant to ur question.

true2god: [size=18pt]According to JW, angels can worship arch-angel micheal cos he is a special angel that God had reserve for worship. Unfortunately thats a wrong teaching.[/size]

In order to solidify the point, arch-angel michael must be Jesus christ. The Bible however did not teach that, but watchtower does. All God's angel, angel michael inclusive, should worship the son (Heb 1:6).

*blowing whistle*... nna mehn, i will love to compile more on this doctrine that they are championing....

italo: Was Angel Michael existing in the form of God?

God forbid! It's only Jesus who has ever existed in form God.

I'm waiting for Jman to clear that verse. Since their translation said Jesus exists in the form of God.

hisblud: confusion mode 3! Personified Wisdom always wit Him yet He created personified Wisdom? Watchtower tinz, mistake manifestation. Achtung! Alert! Mistake correction committee take note.

I cant laff, do u understand deutch?

This JW always confusin demselves whenever they meet any formidable challenge against their 'light is getting brighter' false teachings.

Expect more confusions from them, more question are coming for them.

Too many questions for them to answer neh? Where are the jw brethern even frosbel that has been convinced of their "truth", to come and help clarify this mistakes, which will be transmuted to watchtower headquarters for correction. Asap

true2god: I cant laff, do u understand deutch?

This JW always confusin demselves whenever they meet any formidable challenge against their 'light is getting brighter' false teachings.

Expect more confusions from them, more question are coming for them.

no just watched in film, achtung

hisblud: laffing again, am asking you, again are they the only translations that pitifully refer to Rauch Ha Kodesh as an "it"?

I cant remember when I referred to the bolded.