FRANCISTOWN:




We already know that the bible is full of gaffes and contradictions but I'm not bothered about that.

Now let's see this, the bible really doesn't have a stand about the Trinity. The term "Holy Trinity" has caused a lot of confusions and disparities in the christain body since the days of Augustine of Hippos.

The bible didn't state pedagogically whether the three are one or same in hierarchy.

For instance, Jesus in
John 1 "... And the Word was God" note the bible Titled the "Word" with uppercase "W", the author was definitely referring to a proper noun.

John 10: 30 "I and the Father are one.”

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

John 14:8-11 “'Philip,' Jesus replied, 'after I have been with you all this time, you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father...."

John 16:15, He says, “All that belongs to the Father is mine.”


Jesus also claimed to be able answer prayers, which according to your Bible only God can do.

Also in Revelation 1:8; 21:6; and 22:13, Jesus called himself the "Alpha and the Omega", which is the beginning and the end. Only a God can be the beginning and the end .

From the above scripture, it's clear that Jesus is the same as God.

so God sent himself down to become his one son, but with a different name ..
to sacrifice himself to himself,
just to convince himself to forgive us our sins...


sound so dumb

Some Christian missionaries claim, especially in online videos, that there is a conspiracy to hide the truth from you.

They assert, “There is a chapter in the Tanach [Jewish scriptures] that used to be read in synagogues, but later, the rabbis decided to take it out of the Haftarah [weekly prophetic readings] ‘to avoid confusion’... and today it is considered ‘The Forbidden Chapter,’ hidden from Jews.”

The chapter that missionaries say the rabbis do not want you to read is Isaiah 53. Most Christians believe this chapter describes the messiah [Jesus] dying for our sins.

This easily debunked claim[1] is a ploy to get people to read “The Forbidden Chapter” out of context and consequently accept Jesus. However, when read in context, Isaiah 53 is not speaking about anyone dying “for” our sins. Isaiah describes the Jewish people who suffered “from” the violence perpetrated against them by the nations of the world.

Furthermore, concerning a conspiracy, the missionaries are either intentionally misleading people or are ignorant of the history of the public reading of the prophets.

There are numerous problems with their conspiracy theory:

1. No rabbinic edicts exist that prohibit Jews from reading any portion of the Jewish Bible. On the contrary, the Jewish Bible, including the Book of Isaiah, is accessible to anyone who wants to read it.

2. The weekly prophetic readings, as we know them, were instituted in the second century BCE when the Greek King Antiochus forbade Jews from reading from the Torah [Five Books of Moses]. Since Antiochus did not forbid reading from the Prophets, the sages instituted the weekly public reading of a portion of the Prophets that shared a theme corresponding to the outlawed Torah reading. In this way, the weekly Torah portion would not be forgotten.
3. The sages used only a small portion of the Books of the Prophets to accomplish their immediate goal. The omission of the remainder of the prophetic writings was not intended to hide their content; to the contrary, they were available to anyone who wanted to read them.

4. If the rabbis had conspired to hide prophetic passages that Christians claim to refer to Jesus, they would not have included Isaiah 9:6 as part of the reading for Yitro, as is the custom of many Jewish congregations. Although Christians misinterpret this passage to prove that Jesus is divine, our sages knew that when read in context, Jews would understand that Isaiah 9:6 refers to the righteous King Hezekiah. Similarly, the sages did not “hide” other Torah passages that Christians claim refer to Jesus.

As mentioned above, specific portions of the Books of the Prophets were chosen to correspond to the yearly Torah reading cycle. These portions were divided into different categories: the Torah portion, holidays, the three weeks leading to the commemoration of the destruction of the Temple on the Ninth of Av, and the subsequent seven weeks of consolation and comfort. Although during these weeks of comfort select portions of consolation are read from Isaiah, the message in Isaiah 53, and most of the Book of Isaiah, were not included because they do not specifically address consolation.

5. Lastly, some scholars point out that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain a parchment known as 4Q176. This parchment is also referred to as 4QTanhumi [Tanhumi means comfort] and lists similar chapters from Isaiah read as consolation and comfort for the destruction of the Temple. Interestingly, this parchment does not include Isaiah 53. Since the Dead Sea Scrolls are associated with non-rabbinic sects, this refutes the claim that there was a “rabbinical conspiracy” to hide Isaiah 53 from the public.
If there is a conspiracy, it is by missionaries. They hide the plain and obvious meaning of Isaiah 53 by reading it out of context and mistranslating crucial words to fit Jesus into the chapter.

As mentioned above, to understand the true meaning of Isaiah 53 it must be read in context.

Although Isaiah 53 speaks about a “suffering servant of God,” anyone who reads Isaiah from the beginning knows that “Israel” is repeatedly referred to as God’s servant. Two examples: “Israel is my Servant” (Isaiah 41:, and “For you, Israel, are My servant” (Isaiah 44:21).

It is common in Tanach [Jewish Scriptures] to refer to the nation of Israel as a single individual. For example, it says, “And the people gathered as one man” (Nehemiah 8:1). In a revealing passage, “You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen” (Isaiah 43:10), the subject Israel is referred to first in the plural and then in the singular.

So, about whom and what is Isaiah 53 speaking?

Starting in Isaiah 52, the prophet describes the reaction of the nations of the world when they witness[2] the future and ultimate messianic redemption of the Jewish people.

Since the nations viewed the Jewish people scornfully and considered them rejected by God and deserving of Divine suffering, they will be shocked and dumbfounded[3] when they witness God’s unexpected and glorious redemption of the Jewish people.

At this point, the nations and their leaders will be left wondering and conclude that the Jewish people did not suffer because God rejected them, as the nations mistakenly thought; instead, it was because they persecuted the Jewish people beyond what they may have deserved.[4]

This is the meaning of the passage, “he [Israel] was wounded from our [the nations] transgression and bruised from our [the nations’] iniquities” (Isaiah 53:5). Israel suffered from the mistreatment of the nations.

In English translations of this chapter, Christians mistranslate the prefix [מ] as “for” rather than “from.” This manipulates the text to sound as if the servant will suffer for the sins of the Jewish people. Fortunately, some Christian translations, such as the New Oxford Annotated Bible, have acknowledged and corrected this mistake.

The idea that the Jewish people suffered from or because of the nations’ misdeeds is substantiated in the passage, “For the transgress of my [the nation’s] people they [למו–lamow, i.e., the Jewish people] were stricken” (Isaiah 53:. The word [למו] is biblical Hebrew and is a plural word as in, “a statute that He gave [למו] to them” (Psalms 99:7). Missionaries incorrectly translated this word as “he” in Isaiah 53:7 to make it sound as if “he was stricken” and therefore speaking about a single individual, i.e., Jesus.

Furthermore, Christian missionaries incorrectly change the role of the messiah from a physical human redeemer from oppression and exile to a spiritual [divine] savior from sin.

Although all Jewish commentators believe that the straightforward identification of the servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel,[5] some, on an allegorical level, identify the servant as the messiah. They do so because, as a member of the Jewish people, the messiah can bear the responsibility to alleviate a portion of the punishment on behalf of the rest of the nation.[6]

A similar example of this concept is found in Numbers 4:19-20, where the children of Kehat bear the responsibility of carrying the Ark, at considerable risk to themselves, on behalf of the rest of the nation, so no one else would die. Amazingly, just before Isaiah 53, Israel is referred to as “bearers of the vessels of the Lord” (Isaiah 52:11).

In contrast to Christian belief, no Jewish commentary claims that the messiah will die for our sins or that we need to believe in, or even know about him, to benefit from his suffering. Even without our knowledge, the messiah’s suffering, as well as the suffering of other righteous Jews, can alleviate some portion of the nation’s suffering.

It is also noteworthy that under the influence of paganism, the early Christians also transformed the messiah into a deity. The Christian beliefs that the messiah dies for our sins and is divine are foreign to Judaism and not based on the Tanach.

I have attempted to present a brief overview of Isaiah 53 and how missionaries distort the original text to fit Jesus into the picture.[7] This overview also demonstrates the danger of reading passages or a chapter out of context.[8]

As King Solomon wisely stated, “The first to present his argument sounds correct, until someone cross-examines him” (Proverbs 18:17).

There is only one creator...but different gods.
The Yoruba call him Olodumare
The Igbos call him CHUKWU
The Akwa Iboms call him Abasi
The Bini's call him Osanobua
The Esab calls him Osalobua
The ancient Egyptian called him Ra
The Babylonian called him Marduk
The Indians calls him Brahma
The Jews calls him Hashem


Same God, different nomenclature...

Which is just the totality of the conciouseness of the universe....

gods are just personification of divine laws and principles...
E.g Thor/Sango/Amadioha which is just the god of thunder and lightening in Norse/Yoruba/Igbo mythologies respectively

vdestro:


You are talking nonsense. The jewish people never walked with God and immediately Moses died, they threw away God and His covenant and all and tried annoying Him so that He would let them break free from the covenant.

So, Jesus was God's last attempt which is why He Said "it is finished" and now there is no other Saviour. Only judgment.

Which jesus?
Which God?

Ever since I denied Jesus my life has experienced a profound transformation. Previously, I was ensnared within the bewilderment of trying to make sense of the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The triangle of Joseph, Mary, and the Holy Spirit added to this confusion.

However, the moment I chose to step away from Jesus, the idol, the insanity I was grappling with started to dissipate. The complex doctrines and narratives of the Trinity and the triangle of Joseph, Mary, and the Holy Spirit and the virgin birth no longer dictated my spiritual journey.

Instead, I found truth and solace in the faith of Judaism. In its monotheistic purity and its profound wisdom, I found a path that felt right and true. Judaism offered clarity where there was confusion, and simplicity where there was complexity.

In denying Jesus, I was not rejecting spirituality, but rather redefining my faith journey. I was leaving behind doctrines that no longer made sense to me and embracing a faith that spoke to my heart and intellect.

The loss of my insanity was the beginning of my journey towards understanding, a journey that led me to Judaism. I discovered a faith that values questioning, exploration, and the relentless pursuit of truth. Judaism, in its profound simplicity, liberated me from the chains of confusion and brought me peace.

In summary, denying Jesus, the man-god, marked the loss of my insanity and the commencement of a new spiritual journey. It was not so much a loss as it was a profound discovery - a discovery of Judaism and its timeless wisdom."

The Road to Repentance Begins with
Proverbs 28:13 “He who conceals his sins will not succeed, but he who confesses and abandons [them] will obtain mercy.”
It is absolutely necessary for everyone to learn authentic Tanach from a trained Rabbi that is connected to the living transmission of wisdom and understanding from Mount Sinai… but if they do not empty their cup of the churches bad teachings no amount of correct learning will help that individual. The fact that man is not without sin does not make him born with sin. The remedy for sin is simple… as we see with Cain’s situation in Gen 4:7 “Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it.” True repentance is the cure for sin… not the faith in a man nor the blood of a man. In fact blood was never an absolute for the atonement for sin Leviticus 5:11 “But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering”.... but thru the Prayers of true repentance we see God’s willingness to show mercy on man and forgive his sins. Proverbs 28:13 ​“confess and forsake your sins and you shall have mercy.” II Chronicles 7:14 “If you humble yourself and pray, and seek God’s face, and turn from your wicked ways; then God will hear from heaven, and will forgive your sins.” Psalm 38:19 “declare your iniquity; and be sorry for your sin.” The New Testament religion with its faith in the blood sacrifice of a man is useless against the remission of sin. For no man can atone for another man’s sin as we see in Ezekiel 18:20 “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” The improvement of ones self thru the wisdom and understanding of the Torah gives man the ability to over come his sin. If he should fail God’s mercy allows him to repent of his sin and be forgiven. Repentance affords a man the opportunity to work to better himself thru the wisdom and knowledge of Torah, wherein which he over comes his sins. Thru repentance a man will account for his own sins and be forgiven. Man has the ability on his own to be righteous by being careful in keeping the Torahs of Hashem as we see in Deut. 30:11 “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.” Man’s reward for his efforts in keeping the Torahs of Hashem and for having a faith that believes these commands were given by Hashem at Mount Sinai has a portion in the “world to come”. The Torah of God is complete with mercy, grace, salvation and redemption for all men... there is no need to add the words of an unreliable text to fulfil or complete the Torah… God has considered all men in His Torah and made a place for everyone without the need for an intermediary for salvation, to receive His grace or mercy. There is no requirement from God to have an intermediary for Him to hear your prayers of repentance... faith is complete when you believe as Avraham did in the Torahs of God and by closely keeping the Torah that was given to the righteous descendants of Noah.

‘Behold, in days to come, I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel’ (Jeremiah 31:31). This is not speaking off a new testament or law, but to a renewal of devotion to the teachings of the Torah. The prophet thus concludes in God’s name, ‘But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel….. I will place My Torah within them, and I will write it in their hearts’ (Jeremiah 31:33).
The founder of Christianity sought to abrogate such important commandments as the Sabbath, the dietary laws, and the laws of divorce, as well as to add numerous commandments to the Torah. It was for this primary reason that the Jewish people refused to accept him as a prophet or a man of God, despite his miracles. Regarding such teachings, it is written, ‘He will speak words against the Most High, and he will wear down the saints of the Most High, attempting to change the seasons and the Law’ (Daniel 7:25).

What other proof do christian need that their new testament has got nothing to do with the God of the Jews..

Kukutenla:

Oya defend the OT wise man

Go and read the wars of the gods.

It will give you a clearer picture...

You will learn who where the kings and queen of those cities and what they represent.

Give you a clue...The Amalekites represents "doubt"...
God instructed Saul to kill everyone of them. It means to kill all doubt of God, within you...

The battle (jihad ) is within..

The kingdom of God is within...

FriendsAndFans:
the bible is inspired

What do you mean inspired ??

Care to explain ?


I will give you my own opinion

All these Christians are dumb...

They can not even defend anything.

This is what you get when you steal people's book and add your own .

End of the day you don't know shit about it...

The Romans had no business including the Jewish scriptures on their Greek philosophy they called "New testament"..

The Jews understands their scriptures....They see beyond the written words and learn the message in them...


But Christians...as dumb as ever....

Lucifer is a she...

Not a he...

She is the goddess(Orishas) of death and destruction..

And also of love and wisdom.

She and God(Marduk) are enemies....

I wonder why Catholic would think she(as Mary the mother of jesus) would have a son by him.
That is an insult..
Inanna and Marduk are enemies...She lied against him. She accused him of causing the death of Dimuzzi. But she caused it...

Interesting epic though....but only for the discerning mind.

Maynmann:

The “history” of the word will tell us the meaning of the word and from there we can move forward.

I don’t know why people think semantics is bad.
https://people.howstuffworks.com/semantics.htm

I will say something and nothing.

Nobody said it was bad..
But just state the relevance to the discussion at hand, and make any connections if any..move. It forward. I want to learn too and add my own points too...

No knowledge is lost..

Michael would be Marduk..

Marduk fought and defeated the dragon(Tiamat).

He created the universe with her body..

The gospel stories comes from ancient tales about Marduk.

Well, inanna is Lucifer. That makes Lucifer a she rather than a he. She elevated herself to the pantheon by stealing the Mes from Enki.

Enki was the father of Marduk...

Marduk is the same as the God of the Tanakh..

Maynman you really don't have anything to say. If you do you would have driven this lesson forward rather than look for history of words..

Say something please..