Seun:

It is possible that those who confess to have been witches or wizards in the past are:
- Deluded (psychological imbalance causing them to believe that they are what they are not!)
- Trying to make money (by writing and selling boks about their experiences)
- Under some form of hypnosis (hypnosis has been demonstrated to work on TV shows)

Exactly. Nothing more, nothing less

I'll do some research tomorrow and start a thread on Wicca.

SHould be fun

@nferyn: Well, I'm only trying to make you believe that witchcraft exists, even if you don't believe in it. Goodluck in ur research. I'll do the same too but right now, I have to go to bed.

@Seun, so u mean witchcraft doesnt exist abi? Well then, if you are a strong Christian, I'll say Congratulations! But if you are not, I still wish you the best of lucks.

_{Good night}

i don't believe the witchraft crap either.

goodguy:

@nferyn: Well, I'm only trying to make you believe that witchcraft exists, even if you don't believe in it. Goodluck in your research. I'll do the same too but right now, I have to go to bed.

@Seun, so u mean witchcraft doesnt exist abi? Well then, if you are a strong Christian, I'll say Congratulations! But if you are not, I still wish you the best of lucks.

_{Good night}

I'm only saying that you need to come with more convincing evidence to make me believe in witchcraft - or anything for that matter - incredible and supernatural claims must meet an extraordinary burden of proof. Maybe people believe in it, but that does not make it true. Unfortunately people hold all sorts of crazy beliefs.

@nferyn

Ur 100$ stake is bogus. I can as well put down 1000$ for you to proove that withcraft doesnt exist.
Lets be more rationale and break this down.
U sure have sum'n you're looking out for...what is it? What kind of proof do u need? Cos its obvious u either do not believe the spirtual or u want it explained with d physical (ridiculous).
Nevertheless let the argument begin.
Tell goodguy (us) what kind of proof u need (since u have debunked possible proofs of existence of d supernatural). Maybe we can start from there. U can sure cant tell us to bring photos cos then i'll ask u to bring photo of the air u breathe.

Those who don't believe in witchraft simply says its not logical but whats logical about life if u can't predict tomorrow wit all your "logicalities".

layi:

@nferyn

Ur 100$ stake is bogus. I can as well put down 1000$ for you to proove that withcraft doesnt exist.

Why is it bogus? If you mean that I require something tangible and that you think nothing tangible is required as proof, then indeed, it is bogus by your requirements. Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by bogus.

layi:

Lets be more rationale and break this down.
U sure have sum'n you're looking out for...what is it? What kind of proof do u need? Cos its obvious u either do not believe the spirtual or u want it explained with d physical (ridiculous).

Let's operationalize this. Give me a definition of spiritual that makes it tangible and measurable, either in it's properties or in it's effects. We can start from here
If you cannot get to this level, your reasoning is circular: relying on something, the spiritual, to prove itself, the spiritual.

layi:

Nevertheless let the argument begin.
Tell goodguy (us) what kind of proof u need (since u have debunked possible proofs of existence of d supernatural). Maybe we can start from there. U can sure can't tell us to bring photos because then i'll ask u to bring photo of the air u breathe.

There are countless evidences that prove the existence of the air we breathe. Photographing air is like trying to pick up a needle with a bulldozer, the wrong instrument for the task.

layi:

Those who don't believe in witchraft simply says its not logical but whats logical about life if u can't predict tomorrow wit all your "logicalities".

It has nothing to do with logic, evidence of it's effects and an indisputable correlation with the acts of witchcraft will do

I see so all those pastors that bind witches and wizard before God are just asking God to distroy non existing powers abi. and the native doctor that detects the unknown are just smart if not born detectives? just told me that even the scientist has no voodoo too. Boy
let me tell this real story

when i worked with NNPC Kaduna,
the Japan co., CHOIDA, came to carry out a TAM (turn around Maintenance)
we got to a point and had a problem bringing down the Chimney at about the hight of ten to fifteen story building, the crane went and hung half way it was fix and we tried again the same thing happened again the Japan guys order for much bigger crane still the same thing. they now have to order for the biggest crane from Port/h this crane is called Land and sea but we named it hulk hogan after the wrestling champ in vogue then(1989) we even have to dismantle some of the pipe-lines to allow this Hulk of crane to get into the refinery. ladies and Gentlemen o!yes we failed to bring down the chimney, oyibo man come dey laugh, its time for Voodoo. they send us home at about 10.am and even promise to record 2hrs overtime for us since its not our wish not to work. well we all ran home but i have to stay back because i do night guard at the refinery after day work and they forgot to ask the guards to vacate too. so by 11pm they brought in cows in trucks, other Night/G with me were watching from a close distance unseen by the oyibo engineers cum voodoo men and in blacks like Neengers they started to sing and dance makiba dance.

in the end they lay the cows and burn them up alive with all kind of hot drink in line with their practice. note we don't know why they were doing that, but our motives is to storm there as soon as the last man leaves the ritual ground, to do what you may ask? yes of course to feed ourselves if possible bring some home the cow meat and drink to stupor with oyibo wishkey abi na vodka hot drinks we are tired of kaikai and ogogoro, oyibo own na original.

well to our suprise noting was left for us we ran back with the greatest of all speed, my people
the grass of the field was green and untouched by any fire. the whole burning was in the air, and their gods ate and drank all the cow and drinks. we walk around the ritual ground we had to run when we start hearing unusual voices and laughter from distance. the ground was hot and kind of quaking (tell me how the nine of us had the same feelings)

so my people there is  witchcraft, even in science, they just don't show it out too often.
in my place there is a place you will go and make incantation with life ram and if your accepted
the ram goes dead on your shoulder an if not after 30min you will be asked to leave cos the gods refuse ur ram.

If there is good prayer to bring good luck then it is only logical that there is evil prayer to bring ill luck, simple. just say what we need to do. to create Orthodox practise in handling of this problem

i will be back again.

well i like the way u guys are trying to bring in life to this issue
let me just give a little evidence to spirituality

one is dream, and 2 is intuition the being about expected ending or occurrence just like your formula in maths but mark u. just that it never happing out 100% does not mean it failed.

some people have a way of knowings of what the future or event have for them
e.g any time i feel hot below my knees i now that i may soon fail sick and within one to tow weeks it happens.

have u ever sat down quietly all alone some where in the forest or at the sea or mountain or in the field or just some where alone and you have a feeling that some one is watching, peeping or gazing at u from an angle only to turn to that angle to see the person?

some can do divinations in my place and give names and date to things in future and with time it is 100% right

@Neron even prophecy is spiritual, so what more do u need to prove that we have abstact nature by way of being spirit conscious or sub conscious? even some are active (witch, ghost abiku, obganje) and they have similar pattarns, Probable u did not grow in a typical African village, and some conservative cities like Ibadan Ilorin Enugu Onitcha. note your controlled by your origin and tradition to some extent but in general you have this inpact pure and simple

I honestly don't know what to say about your story. This seems to be very weird. Did the chimney come down in the end. Anyway, is any of this ever recorded? if you were working during the day as well as night, you may have been hallucinating because you were tired or seen things and imagined others due to being tired or maybe lack of food or anything. I don't know the context

Why is there not even one recording of such an event by an outside observer. Your senses can easily be tricked. Magicians give the impression of sawin people into two halves, sticking them with swords and the like without inflicting harm. They're all illusions.

If just one person could reproduce one of these event in front of a sceptic audience, just once> Hasn't happened yet.

holyghost:

well i like the way u guys are trying to bring in life to this issue
let me just give a little evidence to spirituality

one is dream, and 2 is intuition the being about expected ending or occurrence just like your formula in maths but mark u. just that it never happing out 100% does not mean it failed.

Dreams are just your brain arranging the information from the past day and storing it in long term memory, rearranging some neural pathways. It uses both collected information from your past and the new information that came in during the daytime. This rearrangement causes you to have weird dreams, of which you only remember the most remarkable ones.

To have anything to say about this we need to know the information content of the dreams, , the ones you remeber and the events with which they correlate. Out of that we need to find out if these correlations are statistically significan to warrant claims of foresight. This has not yet been proven (and it probably won't be proven anyway)

Intuition is usually knowledge that is so well drilled into memory that it becomes part of the subconscience, so you can be surprised with the results because you didn't consciously go through the steps that lead you to that conclusion

holyghost:

some people have a way of knowings of what the future or event have for them
e.g any time i feel hot below my knees i now that i may soon fail sick and within one to tow weeks it happens.

Very well possible, nothing supernatural about it. We may not yet understand the mechanisms, but this does not violate any natural law.

Some people can even feel in their bones when the weather is going to change. It is usually caused by changes in air humidity or air pressure, giving some people a foresight into the weather

holyghost:

have u ever sat down quietly all alone some where in the forest or at the sea or mountain or in the field or just some where alone and you have a feeling that some one is watching, peeping or gazing at u from an angle only to turn to that angle to see the person?

Optical illusions or your mind playing tricks on you. It happens very often, nothing spiritual about it, even though it may seem so

holyghost:

some can do divinations in my place and give names and date to things in future and with time it is 100% right

that would be proof of the supernatural if the occurence of the prophecy were statistically significant. if you can have someone make this sort of claim a few times and record whether or not it happens, I would accept that as proof. (given that this cannot happen by chance)

holyghost:

@Neron even prophecy is spiritual, so what more do u need to prove that we have abstact nature by way of being spirit conscious or sub conscious? even some are active (witch, ghost abiku, obganje) and they have similar pattarns, Probable u did not grow in a typical African village, and some conservative cities like Ibadan Ilorin Enugu Onitcha. note your controlled by your origin and tradition to some extent but in general you have this inpact pure and simple

I don't understand your point here

everything depends on our subconscio...is not hard for someone to convince theirselves of being something absolutely out of this world! it's a psychological case. we need more psychologist in Nigeria!

michelin89:

everything depends on our subconscio...is not hard for someone to convince theirselves of being something absolutely out of this world! it's a psychological case. we need more psychologist in Nigeria!

Yes, your brain can play wonderfull tricks on you.
never has any of these things been observed by someone that didn't believe in it or was open for the idea.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and the only thing we have right now is a 'ghost' taste from somthing that they crave for (want to be true)

There ain't no way on earth that someone can convince me that witchcraft don't exist, especially when i've had encounters with it, through friends, stupid family members and the likes. I know for a fact that it's out there and that it exists.

Thank you my sister.

Witchcraft exists. To those of you Nigerians saying it doesn't exist, are u trying to act "civilised" or what? Anywayz, Holyghost said it all.

@wesley, Seun, and michelin, you mean those pastors who bind and cast out witches and spells are just telling God to remove something that doesn't exist?

For God's sake, we see people who confess that they have been in a cult. Could they be lying against themselves? (and please don't give me that crap about psychological disorders/hallucinations).

Since the introduction of the new 1000 naira note, we've been hearing of people kidnapping little children for money rituals. Ritualism occurs only as a result of occultic means.  If people were not gaining "money" from these rituals stuffs, don't you think they'd have stopped long ago? Or who do you think has time to waste on something that will yield no results? Or are you going to tell me too that the money they have is just an illusion of what they've always wanted?

You (nigerian opposers of witchcraft existence) all know that people belong to devilish cults here. There are so many on the Nigerian campuses, we all heard of the famous multibillonaire, Ezego. So tell me, are all these just results of "one's brains playing tricks on him"? Don't give me craps please.

We have heard so many testimonies in our churches by people who say their neighbours start to confess their sins after praying solely in their own rooms. Would you tell me that it was the noise of the prayers that was tormenting these people?

C'mon! you and I know so well that witchcraft exists. Period!

Even if na psychological disorders, by the time people start to ostracise them, won't they start to speak out? we're not even talking about the people that got burnt, even if they were faking, we're talkin Petrol and Matches;i would speak up jor. Or you want to tell me that ppl just like to get burnt and stuff.

quote author=Scorpio link=topic=2307.msg79279#msg79279 date=1129834288]
Even if na psychological disorders, by the time people start to ostracise them, won't they start to speak out? we're not even talking about the people that got burnt, even if they were faking, we're talkin Petrol and Matches;i would speak up jor. Or you want to tell me that people just like to get burnt and stuff.
[quote][/quote]

people are sick. it's just like saying that everyone knows the consequences of committing a crime but there are still those who do it. it's exactly the same case! and those pastors and stuff please you should rather spare me that crap! my opinion is this: WE ARE TOO DAMN SUPERSTITIOUS!

How sick can they get? abeg jo. i know they exist, they're out there and since you say they're sick n all dat, next time you visit Benin, how about trying to go through the Oba's palace and see stuff for yourself. abi you wan tell me say the guy no know anything about witchcraft too?

@ all of you who believe in witchcraft: Why is it that none of you has ever [/b]been able to [b]prove even once to a skeptic that there is such a thing as witchcraft?

Just try to answer this simple question.

My offer still stands. I'm dead serious about this.
The belief in witchcraft and the occult is destroying the fabric of your society. You are undermining precious chances of development because of all these resources that are thrown away on curses, spells and counterspells.

Most of these accusations of witchcraft are just used by people that want to undermine the standing and position of their enemies.
In polygamous societies, the best way to get rid of a competing wife is by accusing her of witchcraft;

I could prove it to you, but i can't type that much and i believe action speaks way louder than words. just hope that at the end, you don't accuse me of witchcraft, cos i no get am.

Scorpio:

I could prove it to you, but i can't type that much and i believe action speaks way louder than words. just hope that at the end, you don't accuse me of witchcraft, because i no get am.

Sure go ahead. Take your time, I am patient. And no I won't accuse you of anything, that's not my style

ok cool, when i'm ready to go home, i'll let you know. you'll pay for your flight , but accomodation, food and the likes will be provided. when we get to my hometown, i'll prove it to you. if you game, let me know.

Scorpio:

ok cool, when i'm ready to go home, i'll let you know. you'll pay for your flight , but accomodation, food and the likes will be provided. when we get to my hometown, i'll prove it to you. if you game, let me know.

Yeah right,

My wife already said the same thing to me before. Why don't you just ask someone to record a witchcraft session, if there's any credibility to it, I might consider to come over - not that I have much hope

michelin89:

those pastors and stuff please you should rather spare me that crap! my opinion is this: WE ARE TOO DAMN SUPERSTITIOUS!

So u mean casting out witchcraft in a person is superstitious?? OMG! u need to see how guys beside me are laughing so hard at you.!

@nferyn: does ur wife believe witchcraft exists?

You see, even your wifey knows. who would be bold to do that? i dunno anybody close to me that would. my offer remains sha, if ya want proof, come to 9ja. i'll take you places.

well folks keep it up

nferyn:

I honestly don't know what to say about your story. This seems to be very weird. Did the chimney come down in the end. Anyway, is any of this ever recorded? if you were working during the day as well as night, you may have been hallucinating because you were tired or seen things and imagined others due to being tired or maybe lack of food or anything. I don't know the context

Why is there not even one recording of such an event by an outside observer. Your senses can easily be tricked. Magicians give the impression of sawin people into two halves, sticking them with swords and the like without inflicting harm. They're all illusions.

If just one person could reproduce one of these event in front of a sceptic audience, just once> Hasn't happened yet.

@nferyn yes the chimney was brought down by the small crane to our suprise the next morning
dream does not always say things in the past as you claimed dream mostly point to the future ask most people around u.

nferyn:

Dreams are just your brain arranging the information from the past day and storing it in long term memory, rearranging some neural pathways. It uses both collected information from your past and the new information that came in during the daytime. This rearrangement causes you to have weird dreams, of which you only remember the most remarkable ones.

To have anything to say about this we need to know the information content of the dreams, , the ones you remeber and the events with which they correlate. Out of that we need to find out if these correlations are statistically significan to warrant claims of foresight. This has not yet been proven (and it probably won't be proven anyway)

Intuition is usually knowledge that is so well drilled into memory that it becomes part of the subconscience, so you can be surprised with the results because you didn't consciously go through the steps that lead you to that conclusion
Very well possible, nothing supernatural about it. We may not yet understand the mechanisms, but this does not violate any natural law.


Optical illusions or your mind playing tricks on you. It happens very often, nothing spiritual about it, even though it may seem so
that would be proof of the supernatural if the occurence of the prophecy were statistically significant. if you can have someone make this sort of claim a few times and record whether or not it happens, I would accept that as proof. (given that this cannot happen by chance)
I don't understand your point here

the point here is that you turd around and saw the person who was looking at u so secretly as if u just told about his position.
again intuition has noting to do with fore knowledge at all. you may just for instance her a voice lets of any of your close family or may be you keep remembering the person just too often with some time let's a 6 to 10 times in a week and you call to know how this person is doing in real life only to be told that the person is very sick or dead, what will come out of your mind is no wonder i keep think and remembering him. this because your spirit have close affinity to that person sprite simple. and that where intiton is aptly displayed

@Scorpio  please do your best to convice them here abeg and abeg no carry anybody near oba, them go melt so they can't be able to tell their encouter with the Chief Wizard of Benin kingdom
once again abeg. we will do our best to point it out for them here

witchcraft exist everywhere, if you want to know that come to benin, its a Good example, you see them in day light just arround ringroad, you think those bats are ordinary? they are messengers. if you have gone into the palace before, there is something you must notice, the palace is just very close to the largest markets and transport park in benin, and still those noise are not heard in the palace, i am talking of sharing almost thesame boundary with those places, men that is not ordinary. I live in Benin and a native too. I have a lot of examples if you need.

goodguy:

So u mean casting out witchcraft in a person is superstitious?? OMG! u need to see how guys beside me are laughing so hard at you.!

they should be laughing at theirselves and not at me! i don't allow all those stuff to influence the way i leave because i think everything is caused by a deep fear inside us! when you don't believe in something it's hard it can hurt you, so i still remain of my idea that witchcraft is just another believe in African tradition which is one of the numerous enemies of progress! we can never come out of the darkness we're into if we give importance to those bullsh*ts!  because that's what they are! someone said witchcraft is everywhere so i guess it's also here in Europe so can someone explain to me the reason why I've never heard of it? are you saying that we Africans are able to see and notice things white can't see or feel? please this thought is sensless! You need to really open your eyez...i suggest to have a trip to Europe and America! that would really help you a lot!

please, share your exirence with us and the examples that are logical

i will be back soon

will leaving in europe change my skin colour too?
then how often do you here of Garri and Okaro soup over there? does that mean they don't exist there, then all this horror film they produce how come the play it well if the don't have some aspect history to copy?

sparkles:

witchcraft exist everywhere, if you want to know that come to benin, its a Good example, you see them in day light just arround ringroad, you think those bats are ordinary? they are messengers. if you have gone into the palace before, there is something you must notice, the palace is just very close to the largest markets and transport park in benin, and still those noise are not heard in the palace, i am talking of sharing almost thesame boundary with those places, men that is not ordinary. I live in Benin and a native too. I have a lot of examples if you need.

Welcome hun, abeg preach am to these ppl for me jare.