Ubenedictus, define purgatory and see if the following verses agree with the definition

DoctorAlien:


"But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of GOD;" Heb. 10:12

"For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Heb. 10:14

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." Heb. 10:17-18

"Christ also died for sins once and for all" 1 Pet. 3:18

Ubenedictus:
so u dont need to 'work out ur salvation with fear and trembling'? if a person doesnt cooperate and accept the grace of God he cant be saved. Jesus said 'i stand at the door of ur heart and knock' but we are d ones who must open it frm inside.

God who created us without our consent does not save us without our cooperation.
We all have a role to play, anyone who disagrees make God a liar.

Is "working out our salvation" purgatory? Yes or No?

They are just stringing verses that don't even hint at purgatory let alone supporting their false purgatory claim

Somebody is trying to twist "work out your salvation" to mean there is purgatory. Chai!

DoctorAlien:
Syncan, define purgatory and see if the following verses agree with the definition

I have earlier given you a simple explanation and definition with scripture. I will now again use scripture to enlighten you again. However before i go on i need you to answer this first. Was St. Paul Saved at the time he was writing the epistles?

DoctorAlien:
They are just stringing verses that don't even hint at purgatory let alone supporting their false purgatory claim

Somebody is trying to twist "work out your salvation" to mean there is purgatory. Chai!

Stop confusing yourself. Those verses are in support of the fact that we have a part to play in our salvation, you didn't know this before did you?

DoctorAlien:


Is "working out our salvation" purgatory? Yes or No?

U said we had no part to play in our sanctification, i rebutted and refuted u with 'work out ur salvation', do u now agree that we have a part to play in our sanctification? stop twisting and turning.

DoctorAlien:
They are just stringing verses that don't even hint at purgatory let alone supporting their false purgatory claim

Somebody is trying to twist "work out your salvation" to mean there is purgatory. Chai!

do you want more verses? here I'll distinguish a state after death of suffering and forgiveness.

and another set of verses to support my purification by fire ideology.

all bible verses no long talks.

let me know if you are interested. lets put this dilly dally to rest.

Syncan:


I have earlier given you a simple explanation and definition with scripture. I will now again use scripture to enlighten you again. However before i go on i need you to answer this first. Was St. Paul Saved at the time he was writing the epistles?

Yes. He was saved.

Syncan:


Stop confusing yourself. Those verses are in support of the fact that we have a part to play in our salvation, you didn't know this before did you?

Do the verses say there is purgatory?

If you say "working out your salvation" hints at purgatory (of course it doesn't), will everybody go to purgatory?

joey150:
it is only ridiculous to you protestants. The apostles always upheld the importance of rhe church. It is because of what happened over the years that we have every tom dick and harry.holding the bible and leading people astray.
The church main aim was to unite the sheeps of christ under one flock. So that we nay become one in unity with him. That as christ being the supremen head of the church that as he promised, he would send the holy spirit to guide us in matters of truth. And always lead us to him.
Or now you doubt that peter was the first pope??

Trace your steps..you are all products of thr rebellion of martin Luther, he has set you on the path you are on now. And like it or not, the church WILL ALWAYS guide the WHOLE christianity on matters of faith.

Her teachings her supreme. And is manifest of the work of the holy spirit.. Even the compilation bible is a good evidence of that .

So agree or not,believe or not. Fact is fact. And God has promised us that nothing shall ever prevail agaisnt his church.

Matthew: 16. 18. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

And here Christ encourages us to listen to the church.
Matthew: 18. 17. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

If you will not hear the church let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Happy Sunday friend.

You peddle misapprehensions like hotdogs. May it bemuse you to know that I'm catholic, born and raised. But that's as far as our similarly goes.

You wear your denominational insignia with ignorance. Peter was not catholic and neither was apostle Paul.

Jerusalem and other Jewish sites are the true places for Christian pilgrimage, not Rome.
The seat of the council of elders which Peter was head was in JERUSALEM NOT IN ROME.
PETER MARRIED AND HAD A WIFE. your Pope and priest don't marry
Peter was no priest but a disciple who did apostolic and missionary works.
Your Pope and church patterned their ministries after the priests of old before the time of CHRIST.



You accuse the pentecostal movement of rebellion but I think you have a mind of servitude.

I long left christian threads because of your likes. I don't argue scriptures.

I'll leave you with this:

John said unto HIM, TEACHER, we saw someone casting out demons in your NAME, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.

But JESUS said, do not try to stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. Mark 9:38-40.

DoctorAlien:


Yes. He was saved.

Good, then was he conscious to run the race properly when he said this: But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1Cor. 9:27 Why will the great St. paul be weary of being disqualified, and you are here saying you cannot be disqualified, that everything has been paid for. It means you simply are getting something wrong.

Syncan:


Stop confusing yourself. Those verses are in support of the fact that we have a part to play in our salvation, you didn't know this before did you?

HELP ME ASK AM. he is either delibrating twisting my words or he lacks understanding of english.

postmann:




You peddle misapprehensions like hotdogs. May it bemuse you to know that I'm catholic, born and raised. But that's as far as our similarly goes.

You wear your denominational insignia with ignorance. Peter was not catholic and neither was apostle Paul.

Jerusalem and other Jewish sites are the true places for Christian pilgrimage, not Rome.
The seat of the council of elders which Peter was head was in JERUSALEM NOT IN ROME.
PETER MARRIED AND HAD A WIFE. your Pope and priest don't marry
Peter was no priest but a disciple who did apostolic and missionary works.
Your Pope and church patterned their ministries after the priests of old before the time of CHRIST.



You accuse the pentecostal movement of rebellion but I think you have a mind of servitude.

I long left christian threads because of your likes. I don't argue scriptures.

now who is selling misinformation.

DoctorAlien:


Do the verses say there is purgatory?

If you say "working out your salvation" hints at purgatory (of course it doesn't), will everybody go to purgatory?

What that verse simply removes is the heresy that "once saved, always saved". Hence if we now agree with scripture that the believer can lose his salvation through sin, and we agree with scripture that not all sin lead to death, then what happens to the believer who died with sin not leading to death (eg. Lack of respect during prayer), for which he has not asked pardon of? That's were 1 cor 3:15 comes in, such a one will make heaven, but "so as by fire". He will be purged of those stain before entering heaven, for nothing unclean shall enter Rev.21:27 That's purgatory right there.

DoctorAlien:


Do the verses say there is purgatory?

If you say "working out your salvation" hints at purgatory (of course it doesn't), will everybody go to purgatory?

The verses says that we have a part to play in our salvation, do u agree?

DoctorAlien:
Ubenedictus, define purgatory and see if the following verses agree with the definition

Syncan already defined it, it is a state of purification were those whose 'works were burnt up' attain salvation by fire. It doesnt contradict any of d verses above.

Ubenedictus:
now who is selling misinformation.

Good to know you can spell misinformation. But you mustn't stop there. You prove your point by refuting my post with scriptures.

Syncan:


Good, then was he conscious to run the race properly when he said this: But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1Cor. 9:27 Why will the great St. paul be weary of being disqualified, and you are here saying you cannot be disqualified, that everything has been paid for. It means you simply are getting something wrong.

I don't know how you twisted this convo into "once saved always saved". It is clearly not a Bible doctrine and I don't support it.

postmann:




You peddle misapprehensions like hotdogs. May it bemuse you to know that I'm catholic, born and raised. But that's as far as our similarly goes.

You wear your denominational insignia with ignorance. Peter was not catholic and neither was apostle Paul.

Jerusalem and other Jewish sites are the true places for Christian pilgrimage, not Rome.
The seat of the council of elders which Peter was head was in JERUSALEM NOT IN ROME.
PETER MARRIED AND HAD A WIFE. your Pope and priest don't marry
Peter was no priest but a disciple who did apostolic and missionary works.
Your Pope and church patterned their ministries after the priests of old before the time of CHRIST.



You accuse the pentecostal movement of rebellion but I think you have a mind of servitude.

I long left christian threads because of your likes. I don't argue scriptures.

I'll leave you with this:

John said unto HIM, TEACHER, we saw someone casting out demons in your NAME, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.

But JESUS said, do not try to stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. Mark 9:38-40.

save your conspiracy theories. i dont believe in such.

Syncan:



What that verse simply removes is the heresy that "once saved, always saved". Hence if we now agree with scripture that the believer can lose his salvation through sin, and we agree with scripture that not all sin lead to death, then what happens to the believer who died with sin not leading to death (eg. Lack of respect during prayer), for which he has not asked pardon of? That's were 1 cor 3:15 comes in, such a one will make heaven, but "so as by fire". He will be purged of those stain before entering heaven, for nothing unclean shall enter Rev.21:27 That's purgatory right there.

There's only one group of people that will be in Heaven: those that washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

If somebody goes through purgatory into Heaven, what sanctified him and made him fit for Heaven?

DoctorAlien:


I don't know how you twisted this convo into "once saved always saved". It is clearly not a Bible doctrine and I don't support it.

Very good then. It means we have to cooperate with grace, by our works, in order to gain heaven.

DoctorAlien:


There's only one group of people that will be in Heaven: those that washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

If somebody goes through purgatory into Heaven, what sanctified him and made him fit for Heaven?

It is the blood of Christ that draws God's mercy. A great exposition of the High degree of God's mercy is the fact that He does not punish all sin with hellfire, It is the merit of that blood of Christ which is felt here on earth in the forgiveness of our sin when we ask for pardon, and also felt by "the spirits in prison" 1Pet3:19, it's that same blood that obtains purification for the souls in purgatory, for they can no longer help themselves. The Power of the blood of Christ is felt beyond this earth.

i really had to dig deep to find this. and it'll go a long way in clarifying things here.. lets not base it all on just 1cor3:13.

lets break this into steps now.. first lets proof that there is a state after death of suffering and forgiveness.


I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 Jesus teaches us, Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.The word opponent (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8 ) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we wont get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This prison is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 Jesus says, And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase in the next (from the Greek en to mellonti) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the deads behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him on that day.Pauls use of that day demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word unclean comes from the Greek word koinon which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus statement I say to you today you will be with me in paradise does not mean there was a comma after the first word you.This means Jesus could have said, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was today or now,and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life perhaps by a bloody and repentant death could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

culled from catholic scriptures. this is just to proove that a state after death of suffering and forgiveness.. we would still get to the purgatory part.
am thinking of moving this to the 1st page even.


LET THOSE STILL IN DOUBT SPEAK UP NOW..lest i move on to the purgatory part. after giving undoubtable facts whoever stil chooses to call it heresy shall be left alone.
my friend ayokun777 seems to be off the grid.. and analice107 got so frustrated and had to assume i win souls for the pope. or doctoralien who will ask the same questions in 29 differnet ways. i want you all to read through the verses, since you all accused catholics of coming up with things,to suit our doctrines.

you all have truly inspired me to even know more than i ever did even before i opened this thread.

joey150:
save your conspiracy theories. i dont believe in such.

Your points got drained like water on sandy soil, didn't it? You're diagrace to christianity. Dividing the sheep that was purchased with the precious blood of CHRIST by your mind of servitude and denominational witchcraft!

Syncan:


It is the blood of Christ that draws God's mercy. A great exposition of the High degree of God's mercy is the fact that He does not punish all sin with hellfire, It is the merit of that blood of Christ which is felt here on earth in the forgiveness of our sin when we ask for pardon, and also felt by "the spirits in prison" 1Pet3:19, it's that same blood that obtains purification for the souls in purgatory, for they can no longer help themselves. The Power of the blood of Christ is felt beyond this earth.

Which spirits are in prison and which prison are they in?

Joey150, is Jesus admonishing us to come to terms with Satan?

postmann:


Your points got drained like water on sandy soil, didn't it? You're diagrace to christianity. Dividing the sheep that was purchased with the precious blood of CHRIST by your mind of servitude and denominational witchcraft!

awwwww! I'll say a prayer for you. this hate cannot emanate from a good soul

"...but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah..." 1 Pet. 3:18-20

Syncan, how does this passage support the view of purgatory?

DoctorAlien:
Joey150, is Jesus admonishing us to come to terms with Satan?

please take time to read my explanation in that same post.
that is all i have to say regards that. if you have an objection make it known. and we shall reason it out if only you show or indicate i am wrong.

joey150:
please take time to read my explanation in that same post.
that is all i have to say regards that. if you have an objection make it known. and we shall reason it out if only you show or indicate i am wrong.

Is Jesus admonishing us to come to terms with Satan? YES or NO?

Joey150, if you say somebody can save himself (maybe through purgatory), does this verse agree?

"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him..." Heb. 7:25

Joey150, why did you ignore this question? define purgatory and see if the following verses agree with the definition:

"But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of GOD;" Heb. 10:12

"For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Heb. 10:14

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." Heb. 10:17-18

"Christ also died for sins once and for all" 1 Pet. 3:18