removetheturban:
That is why the Bible called Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN son.

Have you ever wondered why he is called the only begotten son of God?

Every other thing created was through Jesus but Jesus was begotten by God himself.

The only one to have that title "begotten" is Jesus.

So, being a master worker, Jesus learned from Jehovah God and through him, every other thing both in heaven and on earth were created.

If you are referring to the beginning, the beginning of what?
Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+

23 From ancient times* I was installed,

From the start,

Was the Bible lying? When Jesus was on earth did he discredit this scripture? No! Nevertheless, he corroborated by saying the words in

John 8:28...I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day

Pls quote proverbs 8 from verses 1 and burst ur own lie urself

Ihateyoumod:

Pls quote proverbs 8 from verses 1 and burst ur own lie urself

To your delight, Proverbs chapter 8:1 Is not wisdom calling out?

Is not discernment raising its voice?
(verse 1 talks about wisdom and discernment. So, which do you want to grip as we move along?)

removetheturban:
To your delight, Proverbs chapter 8:1 Is not wisdom calling out?

Is not discernment raising its voice?
(verse 1 talks about wisdom and discernment. So, which do you want to grip as we move along?)

Lemme help u

Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.[a]
6 Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers issue decrees that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.[b]
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[c][d]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep

Is it not clear from verse 1 tht this verse is clearly talking about wisdom. Look at verse 12, he says I, wisdom dwell together with prudence.

Look at verse two :
At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, [b]she[\b] takes her stand;

If its not clear to u from the preceding verses tht the writer is only personifying wisdom n not talking about Jesus in anyway then u have a problem, do u know what it is....lemme me tell u!!!!




U have been brain washed to believe nything

Okay, let us flow with your logic. Proverbs 8:22 Was wisdom CREATED before the beginning (before the creation of the heaven and the earth)?

Ihateyoumod:


Lemme help u

Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.[a]
6 Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers issue decrees that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.[b]
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[c][d]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep

Is it not clear from verse 1 tht this verse is clearly talking about wisdom. Look at verse 12, he says I, wisdom dwell together with prudence.

Look at verse two :
At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, [b]she[\b] takes her stand;

If its not clear to u from the preceding verses tht the writer is only personifying wisdom n not talking about Jesus in anyway then u have a problem, do u know what it is....lemme me tell u!!!!




U have been brain washed to believe nything

removetheturban:
Okay, let us flow with your logic. Proverbs 8:22 Was wisdom CREATED before the beginning (before the creation of the heaven and the earth)?

Wisdom was not created bfre d beginning oga

efficiencie:
...but why are Muslims so pained about what Christians believe in? You hardly see a Christian studying the Quran with the intention of arguing with a muslim rather they pray to GOD to do His work but the muslims on the other hand are so interested in making Christianity vanish even if it by using AK47s and rocket propelling guns...The Quran speaks of a day of reckoning, so does the Bible and other scriptures from other religions so why can't we all wait till that time and hear from GOD Himself. We should let GOD defend Himself and cease from defending GOD. GOD knows who He is, that is if I am even permitted to use the pronoun 'HE', and He will explain Himself on that day when He will not be hidden from anyone. So what's the fuss with all the arguments wey dey be like sey some people don ready to kill! Abeg e don do!

There's no Muslim arguing with you guys oooo. It's among Christians.Though I am a Muslim but I have learnt alot here. RemoveTheturban and peace guys so far have superior arguments.
Keep Muslims out of this. And you can learn something too

Okay. Are you seeing how you got yourself cornered?
Proverbs 8:22 says a person (I) was produced. You said that it was Wisdom. In verse 1 it talks about Wisdom and Discretion and you had a hard time choosing which it is.

You said it was wisdom that was created in verse 22.

verses 23 and 27 says that the same person talking in verse 22 that you referred to as Wisdom was created before the heavens and the earth.

Here you are saying that Wisdom was never created before the beginning.

How do you reconcile that?

Ihateyoumod:

Wisdom was not created bfre d beginning oga

removetheturban:
Okay. Are you seeing how you got yourself cornered?
Proverbs 8:22 says a person (I) was produced. You said that it was Wisdom. In verse 1 it talks about Wisdom and Discretion and you had a hard time choosing which it is.

You said it was wisdom that was created in verse 22.

verses 23 and 27 says that the same person talking in verse 22 that you referred to as Wisdom was created before the heavens and the earth.

Here you are saying that Wisdom was never created before the beginning.

How do you reconcile that?

Cake!!!

I cannot corner myself, u wish it for me to kip up with ur lies

23 I was formed long ages ago,
[b]at the very beginning[\b], when the world came to be.

At the very beginning, is what the bible says not bfre the beginning....

Even if you use the worst of Bible translation to project heresy, the Greek scripture will reveal the lie. In this very case, you want to act smart but here we go.
Proverbs 8:23 says at the beginning and not in the beginning.

Can you reconcile the two prepositions?

Tell me how you can run away from Proverbs 8:27
From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So, was Wisdom before the heavens? (remember that the heavens signal the beginning)

Here are your points:
In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth.
Wisdom is speaking in Proverbs chapter 8 and not Jesus
Wisdom did not exist before the heavens and the earth.
Proverbs 8:23 says at the beginning and not before the earth.

Ihateyoumod:

Cake!!!
I cannot corner myself, u wish it for me to kip up with ur lies

23 I was formed long ages ago,
[b]at the very beginning[\b], when the world came to be.

At the very beginning, is what the bible says not bfre the beginning....

removetheturban:
Even if you use the worst of Bible translation to project heresy, the Greek scripture will reveal the lie. In this very case, you want to act smart but here we go.
Proverbs 8:23 says at the beginning and not in the beginning.

Can you reconcile the two prepositions?

Tell me how you can run away from Proverbs 8:27
From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So, was Wisdom before the heavens? (remember that the heavens signal the beginning)

Here are your points:
In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth.
Wisdom is speaking in Proverbs chapter 8 and not Jesus
Wisdom did not exist before the heavens and the earth.
Proverbs 8:23 says at the beginning and not before the earth.

Verse 23 uses the word very specifically. I was formed at d very beginning. So u now want me to lecture u in English languag e. I have pointed out ur error, if u choose not to see the truth, feel free.

Ihateyoumod:



Verse 23 uses the word very specifically. I was formed at d very beginning. So u now want me to lecture u in English languag e. I have pointed out ur error, if u choose not to see the truth, feel free.

Please ignore that guy.

For reference, I will post your previous comment that led to mine below.

Ihateyoumod:
Ihateyoumod:
Cake!!!
I cannot corner myself, u wish it for me to kip up with ur lies
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning[\b], when the world came to be.

[b]At the very beginning, is what the bible says not bfre the beginning....

Now, tell me if you can see the boldened above. Would you want to change that preposition or go ahead with it? Remember that you can see the receipt of your comment if you scroll to your previous comments.

Ihateyoumod:

Verse 23 uses the word very specifically. I was formed at d very beginning. So u now want me to lecture u in English languag e. I have pointed out ur error, if u choose not to see the truth, feel free.

I wouldn't mind getting a free lecture in the English language.
And my question still stands.

Did Proverbs 8:23 says 'at the beginning' and not 'in the beginning'.

Can you reconcile the two prepositions?

Proverbs 8:27
From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So, was Wisdom before the heavens or after the heavens? (remember that the heavens signal the beginning)

removetheturban:
For reference, I will post your previous comment that led to mine below. Now, tell me if you can see the boldened above. Would you want to change that preposition or go ahead with it? Remember that you can see the receipt of your comment if you scroll to your previous comments.
I wouldn't mind getting a free lecture in the English language.
And my question still stands.

Did Proverbs 8:23 says 'at the beginning' and not 'in the beginning'.

Can you reconcile the two prepositions?

Proverbs 8:27
From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So, was Wisdom before the heavens or after the heavens? (remember that the heavens signal the beginning)

I am not a English graduate, but I will use in the beginning if I am to describe a series of event or scenarios. But if I am to describe one event I will use at d beginning, but both are valid, referring to the start of time, an event etc.

Lemme google n c if I am correct cos I might not be

They are valid but not interchangeable. I think the most important difference is that "in the beginning" seems to be an expression describing a whole period of time, while "at the beginning" more literally describes a single moment in time, similar to the difference between saying "in the morning" and "at 8 am.

I am not so far of then

U have been brain washed, even if u c the truth in ur face u will still twist it to suit the lie u have taken to be ur own truth. I dnt blame u doh. I just hope u will see d light on time.

As for proverbs 8:27 u put up den and d question u asked, the answer lies in proverbs 8:23, which I have already stated. I was formed at d very beginning.

By the way if u have nytyn to refute proverbs 8:23, pls say so......tell me what at d very beginning means to u.........negate the truth I have put in your very eyes, if u cannot den keep kwayet and hide urself in shame

removetheturban:
For reference, I will post your previous comment that led to mine below. Now, tell me if you can see the boldened above. Would you want to change that preposition or go ahead with it? Remember that you can see the receipt of your comment if you scroll to your previous comments.
I wouldn't mind getting a free lecture in the English language.
And my question still stands.

Did Proverbs 8:23 says 'at the beginning' and not 'in the beginning'.

Can you reconcile the two prepositions?

Proverbs 8:27
From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So, was Wisdom before the heavens or after the heavens? (remember that the heavens signal the beginning)

Let me explain better. If I say I came to work in the morning, am I correct, yes I am. But can I say I came to work at d morning??... Tht would be bad English.

U asked to explain y d preposition at was used instead of in
Ans: Because the writer of proverbs was trying to be very specific so tht pple like u wouldn't misinterpret and lie to protect ur useless believe tht proverbs 8 was talking about Jesus.

Now lemme explain.back to my example
I came to work in d morning:I am not specifying what time in d morning. Came to work...it could be 7am, 8am, 8:55am etc.

But when I want to be specific, I will use at
I came to work at 8:59am. ....specifying the exact time I came to work in d morning.


So also d writer of proverbs is helping u specify the exact time wisdom was created... Which is at the very beginning.

Conclusion: I dnt expect u to accept this, because ur mind is closed and accepting it is accepting tht proverbs 8 is no where talking bout Jesus, which will shake ur faith tremendously because it is the lie JW has sold to u all these yl. Anyways u can continue fighting with urself. Because if this cannot help u, den ur irredeemable

solite3:
there is nothing here to argue . John said there was nothing that was not created without Jesus. This automatically rules him out as been created. As for you riddiculus statement. No where did Jesus say he was created.
You yourself said All things were created through Jesus by Jehovah God. That again rules Jesus out as been created by Jehovah God. Then who created Jesus? How many things did Jehovah created? Through whom did Jehovah created those things?

This authomatically ends the falsehood of the OP.

How can Jesus create Himself for ALL things{without exception} came into existence through Him from the Father..

Ihateyoumod:

I am not a English graduate, but I will use in the beginning if I am to describe a series of event or scenarios. But if I am to describe one event I will use at d beginning, but both are valid, referring to the start of time, an event etc.

Lemme google n c if I am correct cos I might not be

They are valid but not interchangeable. I think the most important difference is that "in the beginning" seems to be an expression describing a whole period of time, while "at the beginning" more literally describes a single moment in time, similar to the difference between saying "in the morning" and "at 8 am.

I am not so far of then

U have been brain washed, even if u c the truth in ur face u will still twist it to suit the lie u have taken to be ur own truth. I dnt blame u doh. I just hope u will see d light on time.

If at your age and level of exposure you need google to construct basic sentences or decide on points that you have already posted on a public forum, I cannot help but advise you to substantiate all other comments that you have posted on this website and match them with your Google findings.
You think that I am brainwashed. Is that part of your Google finding?

We are talking about the Bible's teaching here and all you came up with is "I am not so far of then". We need to show respect to the word of God and not suppose or guess the truth.

Jesus said that he gave us the word exactly as he received it from God. We have the word and we cannot callously say that we are not far from the Truth.

Show some respect and do not treat the word of God with profanity

Ihateyoumod:

As for proverbs 8:27 u put up den and d question u asked, the answer lies in proverbs 8:23, which I have already stated. I was formed at d very beginning.

Proverbs 8:27 got you cornered, buddy. You just cannot get beyond that. You should submit that you were wrong and own up to the Truth.

Ihateyoumod:

By the way if u have nytyn to refute proverbs 8:23, pls say so......tell me what at d very beginning means to u.........negate the truth I have put in your very eyes, if u cannot den keep kwayet and hide urself in shame

Let us be civilized here at least. This is not children section. It is a forum for adults to discuss religion and I want to believe that you have completed your high school, to say the least.
Get your spelling right for better comprehension.

Ihateyoumod:

Let me explain better. If I say I came to work in the morning, am I correct, yes I am. But can I say I came to work at d morning??... Tht would be bad English.

U asked to explain y d preposition at was used instead of in
Ans: Because the writer of proverbs was trying to be very specific so tht pple like u wouldn't misinterpret and lie to protect ur useless believe tht proverbs 8 was talking about Jesus.

I mean, your grammar is exasperating. No disrespect but you can upgrade. It is excruciating to my eyes. Just stop!

Ihateyoumod:

Now lemme explain.back to my example
I came to work in d morning:I am not specifying what time in d morning. Came to work...it could be 7am, 8am, 8:55am etc.

But when I want to be specific, I will use at
I came to work at 8:59am. ....specifying the exact time I came to work in d morning.


So also d writer of proverbs is helping u specify the exact time wisdom was created... Which is at the very beginning.

Conclusion: I dnt expect u to accept this, because ur mind is closed and accepting it is accepting tht proverbs 8 is no where talking bout Jesus, which will shake ur faith tremendously because it is the lie JW has sold to u all these yl. Anyways u can continue fighting with urself. Because if this cannot help u, den ur irredeemable

I just can't continue. Seriously, I didn't read this.

Did the Bible refer to Jesus as the creator or the firstborn of all creation?

bloodofthelamb:


This authomatically ends the falsehood of the OP.

How can Jesus create Himself for ALL things{without exception} came into existence through Him from the Father..

removetheturban:

I mean, your grammar is exasperating. No disrespect but you can upgrade. It is excruciating to my eyes. Just stop! I just can't continue. Seriously, I didn't read this.

Hahaha....satan has been defeated. He has turned it to a matter of grammar. Is thus an issue of grammar??...how will u read it wen its d truth, the truth is bitter I know. Hide ur head in shame, I have just bursted ur lie and I have proven tht ur faith is all a lie

removetheturban:
If at your age and level of exposure you need google to construct basic sentences or decide on points that you have already posted on a public forum, I cannot help but advise you to substantiate all other comments that you have posted on this website and match them with your Google findings.
You think that I am brainwashed. Is that part of your Google finding?

We are talking about the Bible's teaching here and all you came up with is "I am not so far of then". We need to show respect to the word of God and not suppose or guess the truth.

Jesus said that he gave us the word exactly as he received it from God. We have the word and we cannot callously say that we are not far from the Truth.

Show some respect and do not treat the word of God with profanity
Proverbs 8:27 got you cornered, buddy. You just cannot get beyond that. You should submit that you were wrong and own up to the Truth. Let us be civilized here at least. This is not children section. It is a forum for adults to discuss religion and I want to believe that you have completed your high school, to say the least.
Get your spelling right for better comprehension.

Hahahahha.....the fact tht u have resulted to insults says a lot.......hahahahahahhaha.......

Okay! You can go to the collection center to receive your trophy

Ihateyoumod:


Hahaha....satan has been defeated. He has turned it to a matter of grammar. Is thus an issue of grammar??...how will u read it wen its d truth, the truth is bitter I know. Hide ur head in shame, I have just bursted ur lie and I have proven tht ur faith is all a lie

removetheturban:
Okay! You can go to the collection center to receive your trophy

Keep kwayet der, I whopped u in ur on thread.... Kai!!!....jwsare the greatest lairs ever,a lying cheap secret occultic org founded by a free mason american

[quote author=removetheturban post=66720842] For the sake of argument, let us flow with your point. If the speaker is a 'she', did she exist before the beginning? If she existed before the beginning then you just contradicted yourself

. U lack comprehension. This has laid bare your argument, when has Jesus become 'she' that's my point.
Even your corrupt perversion, calls wisdom an 'it'

Is not wisdom calling out?
Is not discernment raising[b] its[/b] voice?+

Referring to the speaker as it means you shouldn't think the speaker is a real person.

You are contradicting your bible.

Can you use your pronouns more appropriately? I can barely comprehend a thing

I hate repetition

.

Well, I have tried my best and if it isn't good enough, there will be a better time. I never told you of another beginning. I told you that the Bible said that someone was PRODUCED as the beginning of God's ways. That one is the earliest of God's achievement in Proverbs 8:22. New Living Translation renders it as
"The LORD [b]formed [/b]me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

u have done nothing other spewing heresy.

Are you taking proverb 8 literally or figuratively?
Let's start from there

Now, let us put the word 'achievement' into perspective. If you can help me to define the word, you will arrive at 'something accomplished'. If we use the definition of a verb in this context you will see that 'an action' has been completed.
Now, if an action was completed, and then the Bible chapter went further to explain in Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.

Proverb said wisdom was the beginning of God's ways but not among God's works.
What is God's way?

]The one who is beside God as a master worker is the one same one who said that he was produced. No Bible version could lie about that. It is a factual fact. The same person who is the earliest achievement of God is the one beside him. Now, fast-forward to the Jesus that you know. Where is Jesus located in the Bible, 'at the right hand of God' (alternatively, 'beside')

Jesus is at God's right hand and God is in heaven, then how come you said Jesus is in a place above heaven

Not according to me, I did not say that to you. I showed you from your own Bible what the word of God says.
Proverbs 8:27 has the answer to your question. "When he prepared the heavens, I was there".

1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand
Acts 7:55 Stephen said the same thing
Hebrews 12:2
Acts 5:31
Romans 8:34

if Jesus is in heaven, God is in heaven, who is in the place above heaven? And according to your confusion Jesus ascended to a place above heaven, that means Jesus is living in a place above his father.
U should go for medical check up

The above emphasize Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker
Yes, he alone deserves the glory and honor. He gives to whomever he chooses.
Revelation 4:11 You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

When a man pays builders to build a house for him, the house is called his not the builders. It becomes Donald's house. Donald takes full glory and achievement for the house. He only may choose to give props to the builder by telling people about the builder. It is his choice.

Jehovah gave Jesus the love of having everything come into existence through him. Jesus is the only one directly created by Jehovah and the only one to be directly resurrected by Jehovah. Acts 26:23

you are dribbling yourself
Job said God alone made the heavens, note, he didn't say God made the heavens. That would have been an open ended statement but he closed it by alone.
Saying someone was with him as a master craftsman does violence to that statement.


John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John said all things were made through Christ but you said all other things

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

removetheturban:
Even if you use the worst of Bible translation to project heresy, the Greek scripture will reveal the lie. In this very case, you want to act smart but here we go.
Proverbs 8:23 says at the beginning and not in the beginning.

Can you reconcile the two prepositions?

Tell me how you can run away from Proverbs 8:27
From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So, was Wisdom before the heavens? (remember that the heavens signal the beginning)

Here are your points:
In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth.
Wisdom is speaking in Proverbs chapter 8 and not Jesus
Wisdom did not exist before the heavens and the earth.
Proverbs 8:23 says at the beginning and not before the earth.

so before the heavens God had no wisdom?

To clarify things, my response was to the other person, and not you. Anyway, your question should be directed at someone else and not me. You should have read the conversation before attacking me.

solite3:
so before the heavens God had no wisdom?

Trinitarian Hour"
Interviewing Jesus and the apostles:
Trinitarian: Good morning folks. We are very blessed to have with us today Jesus Christ and some of the Apostles. We really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedules to come back down here to earth for this interview. We’re especially excited to have you here with us Jesus. I mean, you are God Himself, which makes this the most exciting interview of my life, because you are so good!
Jesus: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” – Luke 18:19
Trinitarian: That’s what I’m saying! Tell me, what’s it like not having to take orders from anybody?
Jesus: “I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.” – John 6:38
Trinitarian: Excuse me? Are we interviewing the right person here? I was hoping to speak with God. “While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.”” – Matthew 17:5
Trinitarian: Whoa! Who’s voice was that?
Jesus: “It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God.” – John 8:54
Trinitarian: I think you’re just messing with me Jesus. Surely you told your first century followers that you were God.
Jesus: (Opens bible and shows it to reporter) “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” – John 20:17
Trinitarian: Don’t be silly Jesus. We all know you and him are one.
Jesus: “I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. Become watchful,… for I have not found your works fully performed before my God.” – Revelation 3:1, 2
Trinitarian: Wait a minute! You’re Jesus! You don’t have a God. We just have to put faith in your name.
Jesus: “The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.” – Revelation 3:12
Trinitarian: We’d like to take a moment to apologize to our viewers. It seems that the trip from heaven to earth has given Jesus a little jet lag. Let’s move on to the Apostle Paul… Good morning Paul. You wrote so many books of the New Testament. Do you have anything you want to say before we get started?
Apostle Paul: “We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you” – Colossians 1:3
Trinitarian: Pardon?
Apostle Paul: “I continue mentioning you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him.” – Ephesians 1:16, 17
Trinitarian: Okay, so listen Paul. Jesus is already a little disoriented, thinking that he has a God over him when we know he is God himself. So if you could, please, try to be a little clearer. Come on Paul, just tell it like it is.
Apostle Paul: “I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.” – 1 Corinthians 11:3
Trinitarian: Okay, forget you. Let’s get Peter over here…. Peter, would you PLEASE look at Jesus and explain him who the Christ REALLY is?
Apostle Peter: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” – Matthew 16:16
Trinitarian: Now stop that! Tell us the truth. What did you tell your readers in your letters in the New Testament?
Apostle Peter: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven.” – 1 Peter 3:22
Trinitarian: Grrr!… We have one last Apostle to interview. The beloved apostle John is a favorite for us trinitarians. Tell us John – why did you write your gospel?
Apostle John: “These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” – John 20:31
Trinitarian: Well clearly, we’re not getting anywhere, and something has gotten to each and every one of you. I understand you are all confused, and while I wish I could explain the trinity to you, it is beyond human understanding. Let me end this interview by just saying that what we’ve learned here today is that if trinitarians try to ask questions, read the scriptures, and think for themselves, they might come to a different conclusion. But you don’t have to worry about doing any of that. All you have to do is believe.

removetheturban:
To clarify things, my response was to the other person, and not you. Anyway, your question should be directed at someone else and not me. You should have read the conversation before attacking me.

my question is directed to you because you said wisdom was created

removetheturban:
Did the Bible refer to Jesus as the creator or the firstborn of all creation?

firstborn of all creation is a title that was given him after his resurrection.
Jesus is the creator of all things created. John 1:3

philipogunti:
Trinitarian Hour"
Interviewing Jesus and the apostles:
Trinitarian: Good morning folks. We are very blessed to have with us today Jesus Christ and some of the Apostles. We really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedules to come back down here to earth for this interview. We’re especially excited to have you here with us Jesus. I mean, you are God Himself, which makes this the most exciting interview of my life, because you are so good!
Jesus: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” – Luke 18:19
Trinitarian: That’s what I’m saying! Tell me, what’s it like not having to take orders from anybody?
Jesus: “I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.” – John 6:38
Trinitarian: Excuse me? Are we interviewing the right person here? I was hoping to speak with God. “While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.”” – Matthew 17:5
Trinitarian: Whoa! Who’s voice was that?
Jesus: “It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God.” – John 8:54
Trinitarian: I think you’re just messing with me Jesus. Surely you told your first century followers that you were God.
Jesus: (Opens bible and shows it to reporter) “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” – John 20:17
Trinitarian: Don’t be silly Jesus. We all know you and him are one.
Jesus: “I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. Become watchful,… for I have not found your works fully performed before my God.” – Revelation 3:1, 2
Trinitarian: Wait a minute! You’re Jesus! You don’t have a God. We just have to put faith in your name.
Jesus: “The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.” – Revelation 3:12
Trinitarian: We’d like to take a moment to apologize to our viewers. It seems that the trip from heaven to earth has given Jesus a little jet lag. Let’s move on to the Apostle Paul… Good morning Paul. You wrote so many books of the New Testament. Do you have anything you want to say before we get started?
Apostle Paul: “We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you” – Colossians 1:3
Trinitarian: Pardon?
Apostle Paul: “I continue mentioning you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him.” – Ephesians 1:16, 17
Trinitarian: Okay, so listen Paul. Jesus is already a little disoriented, thinking that he has a God over him when we know he is God himself. So if you could, please, try to be a little clearer. Come on Paul, just tell it like it is.
Apostle Paul: “I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.” – 1 Corinthians 11:3
Trinitarian: Okay, forget you. Let’s get Peter over here…. Peter, would you PLEASE look at Jesus and explain him who the Christ REALLY is?
Apostle Peter: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” – Matthew 16:16
Trinitarian: Now stop that! Tell us the truth. What did you tell your readers in your letters in the New Testament?
Apostle Peter: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven.” – 1 Peter 3:22
Trinitarian: Grrr!… We have one last Apostle to interview. The beloved apostle John is a favorite for us trinitarians. Tell us John – why did you write your gospel?
Apostle John: “These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” – John 20:31
Trinitarian: Well clearly, we’re not getting anywhere, and something has gotten to each and every one of you. I understand you are all confused, and while I wish I could explain the trinity to you, it is beyond human understanding. Let me end this interview by just saying that what we’ve learned here today is that if trinitarians try to ask questions, read the scriptures, and think for themselves, they might come to a different conclusion. But you don’t have to worry about doing any of that. All you have to do is believe.

You don't know what trinity is!
God the father spoke from heaven concerning Jesus after baptism after the holy ghost lighting on him.
This is trinity.
The father speaking
The Son being spoken of
The holy ghost highlights on the one to be spoken of.

WHAT IS TRINITY?
The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith. It is crucial for properly understanding what God is like, how he relates to us, and how we should relate to him. But it also raises many difficult questions. How can God be both one and three? Is the Trinity a contradiction? If Jesus is God, why do the Gospels record instances where he prayed to God?
While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity (or anything else), it is possible to answer questions like these and come to a solid grasp of what it means for God to be three in one.
One God, Three Persons
The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Philippians 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3–4). Are these just three different ways of looking at God, or simply ways of referring to three different roles that God plays? The answer must be no, because the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons.
For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), he cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.
In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10–11). John 1:1 affirms that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that he was “with God,” thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (see also John 1:18). And in John 16:13–15, we see that although there is a close unity between the three persons, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.
The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but he is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards himself as “I” while he regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “you.” Likewise, the Son regards himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “you.”
Often it is objected, “If Jesus is God, then he must have prayed to himself while he was on earth.” But the answer to this objection lies in simply applying what we have already seen. While Jesus and the Father are both God, they are different Persons. Thus, Jesus prayed to God the Father without praying to himself. In fact, it is precisely the continuing dialogue between the Father and the Son (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 5:19; 11:41–42; 17:1ff) that furnishes the best evidence that they are distinct Persons with distinct centers of consciousness.
Sometimes the Personhood of the Father and Son is appreciated, but the Personhood of the Holy Spirit is neglected. Sometimes the Spirit is treated more like a “force” than a Person. But the Holy Spirit is not an “it,” but a “he” (see John 14:26; 16:7–15; Acts 8:16). The fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an impersonal force (like gravity), is also shown by the fact that he speaks (Hebrews 3:7), reasons (Acts 15:28), thinks and understands (1 Corinthians 2:10–11), wills (1 Corinthians 12:11), feels (Ephesians 4:30), and gives personal fellowship (2 Corinthians 13:14). These are all qualities of personhood.
In addition to these texts, the others we mentioned above make clear that the Personhood of the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Personhood of the Son and the Father. They are three real persons, not three roles God plays.
Another serious error people have made is to think that the Father became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit. Contrary to this, the passages we have seen imply that God always was and always will be three Persons. There was never a time when one of the Persons of the Godhead did not exist. They are all eternal.
While the three members of the Trinity are distinct, this does not mean that any is inferior to the other. Instead, they are all identical in attributes. They are equal in power, love, mercy, justice, holiness, knowledge, and all other qualities.
Each Person is fully God. If God is three Persons, does this mean that each Person is “one third” of God? Does the Trinity mean that God is divided into three parts?
The doctrine of the Trinity does not divide God into three parts. The Bible is clear that all three Persons are each one-hundred-percent God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each fully God. For example, Colossians 2:9 says of Christ, “in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form.” We should not think of God as a “pie” cut into three pieces, each piece representing a Person. This would make each Person less than fully God and thus not God at all. Rather, “the being of each Person is equal to the whole being of God” (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 1994, page 255). The divine essence is not something that is divided between the three persons, but is fully in all three persons without being divided into “parts.”
Thus, the Son is not one-third of the being of God; he is all of the being of God. The Father is not one-third of the being of God; he is all of the being of God. And likewise with the Holy Spirit. Thus, as Wayne Grudem writes, “When we speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together we are not speaking of any greater being than when we speak of the Father alone, the Son alone, or the Holy Spirit alone” (Ibid., 252).
There is only one God. If each Person of the Trinity is distinct and yet fully God, then should we conclude that there is more than one God? Obviously we cannot, for Scripture is clear that there is only one God: “There is no other God besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:21–22; see also Isaiah 44:6–8; Exodus 15:11; Deuteronomy 4:35; 6:4–5; 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Kings 8:60).
Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons.
If there is one passage which most clearly brings all of this together, it is Matthew 28:19: “Make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” First, notice that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinguished as distinct Persons. We baptize into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Second, notice that each Person must be deity because they are all placed on the same level. In fact, would Jesus have us baptize in the name of a mere creature? Surely not. Therefore each of the Persons into whose name we are to be baptized must be deity. Third, notice that although the three divine Persons are distinct, we are baptized into their name (singular), not names (plural). The three Persons are distinct, yet only constitute one name. This can only be if they share one essence.
Is the Trinity Contradictory?
This leads us to investigate more closely a very helpful definition of the Trinity which I mentioned earlier: God is one in essence, but three in Person. This formulation can show us why there are not three Gods, and why the Trinity is not a contradiction.
In order for something to be contradictory, it must violate the law of non-contradiction. This law states that A cannot be both A (what it is) and non-A (what it is not) at the same time and in the same relationship. In other words, you have contradicted yourself if you affirm and deny the same statement. For example, if I say that the moon is made entirely of cheese but then also say that the moon is not made entirely of cheese, I have contradicted myself.
Other statements may at first seem contradictory but are really not. Theologian R.C. Sproul cites as an example Dickens’s famous line, “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” Obviously this is a contradiction if Dickens means that it was the best of times in the same way that it was the worst of times. But he avoids contradiction with this statement because he means that in one sense it was the best of times, but in another sense it was the worst of times.
Carrying this concept over to the Trinity, it is not a contradiction for God to be both three and one because he is not three and one in the same way. He is three in a different way than he is one. Thus, we are not speaking with a forked tongue — we are not saying that God is one and then denying that he is one by saying that he is three. This is very important: God is one and three at the same time, but not in the same way.
How is God one? He is one in essence. How is God three? He is three in Person. Essence and person are not the same thing. God is one in a certain way (essence) and three in a different way (person). Since God is one in a different way than he is three, the Trinity is not a contradiction. There would only be a contradiction if we said that God is three in the same way that he is one.
So a closer look at the fact that God is one in essence but three in person has helped to show why the Trinity is not a contradiction. But how does it show us why there is only one God instead of three? It is very simple: All three Persons are one God because, as we saw above, they are all the same essence. “Essence” means the same thing as “being.” Thus, since God is only one essence; he is only one being, not three. This should make it clear why it is so important to understand that all three Persons are the same essence. For if we deny this, we have denied God’s unity and affirmed that there is more than one being of God (i.e., that there is more than one God).
What we have seen so far provides a good basic understanding of the Trinity. But it is possible to go deeper. If we can understand more precisely what is meant by essence and person, how these two terms differ, and how they relate, we will then have a more complete understanding of the Trinity.
Essence and Person
Essence. What does essence mean? As I said earlier, it means the same thing as being. God’s essence is his being. To be even more precise, essence is what you are. At the risk of sounding too physical, essence can be understood as the “stuff” that you “consist of.” Of course we are speaking by analogy here, for we cannot understand this in a physical way about God. “God is spirit” (John 4:24). Further, we clearly should not think of God as “consisting of” anything other than divinity. The “substance” of God is God, not a bunch of “ingredients” that taken together yield deity.
Person. In regards to the Trinity, we use the term “Person” differently than we generally use it in everyday life. Therefore it is often difficult to have a concrete definition of Person as we use it in regards to the Trinity. What we do not mean by Person is an “independent individual” in the sense that both I and another human are separate, independent individuals who can exist apart from one another.
What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because he regards the Son as a “You,” even though he regards himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being” (Grudem, 255; I believe that this is a helpful definition, but it should be recognized that Grudem himself is offering this as more of an explanation than definition of Person).
How do they relate? The relationship between essence and Person, then, is as follows. Within God’s one, undivided being is an “unfolding” into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being. The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: “The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and — using a common illustration — as the open palm differs from a closed fist” (Bavinck, The Doctrine of God [Banner of Truth Trust, 1991], page 303).
Because each of these “forms of existence” are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding himself as “I” and the others as “you.” Nonetheless, these three Persons all “consist of” the same “stuff” (that is, the same “what” or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one “what” but three “who’s.”
The divine essence is thus not something that exists “above” or “separate from” the three Persons, but the divine essence is the being of the three Persons. Neither should we think of the Persons as being defined by attributes added on to the being of God. Wayne Grudem explains,
But if each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God. . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others. On the other hand, we must say that the Persons are real, that they are not just different ways of looking at the one being of God . . . the only way it seems possible to do this is to say that the distinction between the persons is not a difference of ‘being’ but a difference of ‘relationships.’ This is something far removed from our human experience, where every different human ‘person’ is a different being as well. Somehow God’s being is so much greater than ours that within his one undivided being there can be an unfolding into interpersonal relationships, so that there can be three distinct persons. (253–254)
Trinitarian Illustrations?
There are many illustrations which have been offered to help us understand the Trinity. While there are some illustrations which are helpful, we should recognize that no illustration is perfect. Unfortunately, there are many illustrations which are not simply imperfect, but in error.
One illustration to beware of is the one which says, “I am one person, but I am a student, son, and brother. This explains how God can be both one and three.” The problem with this is that it reflects a heresy called modalism. God is not one person who plays three different roles, as this illustration suggests. He is one Being in three Persons (centers of consciousness), not merely three roles. This analogy ignores the personal distinctions within God and mitigates them to mere roles.

Who gave him the title?

What is the meaning of the title?

solite3:
firstborn of all creation is a title that was given him after his resurrection.
Jesus is the creator of all things created. John 1:3

Can you quote where I said that wisdom was created?

Why would you choose to blaspheme against me?

solite3:
my question is directed to you because you said wisdom was created