₦airaland Forum

harakiri:
The person who started this thread is one of those people that would claim to have "divine understanding" of the bible. Okay ooo!

Make I no talk.

Please leave the poster alone, he has not said anything different from what The Bible says, moreover, you don't know what a THREAD may bring forth.

@Unphilaz
So as I was saying, Arminianism is from the PIT. I read articles upon articles on Calvinism and Arminianism and found out one day how Arminianism started and was quite surprised that it came after Calvinism. I had been thinking that Calvinism was an improvement on the revelation we had as christians. Before  the year about 1580, nothing was known about Arminianism, there was no talk of the possibility of lose of salvation. In the early years of this century Martin Luther carried out his crusade against the Roman Catholic Church insisting that salvation comes so free that no amount of endearvouring nor preparation nor good deeds was necessary to get it. He was opposed by the RCC who were,are and will forever be the most ardent enemies of the doctrine of GRACE and of free justification.With the success of the reformation, the RCC launched a counter-reformation, it was aimed at eroding the gains of the reformation. It was about this time that Arminianism was spawned and not a few proptestants believed its origin to be from the RCC. It is named after Jacobus Arminius who professed to subscribe to protestant teachings, however he was found to be unorthodox in his views on grace. He was a professor at Leiden in Holland and secretly taught his students doctrines that were more in accordance to the RCC's doctrine than protestant with the results that the students when on holidays would question their own doctrine. Reformed believers were alarmed at this development and asked Arminius to state were he deferred in his believes from them, he would use all the tricks in the book to elude them and die some years later without making his views known. In about 1610 his followers came out with a document they called the REMONSTRANT in which they stated five points in which they disagreed with the established church. These events were happening in Holland.
The five points are:
1.That man was not totally depraved
2.That election was conditional on forseen merit
3.That Christ death was for all men and not just for the elects
4. That grace was resistible
5.That it should be considered if it was not possible for a believer to lose salvation.
The reformed church called for an international synod to consider these points and after due delibration lasting days, Arminianism was UNANIMOUSLY REJECTED.
Its adherent would however spread their false doctrine 'underground' according to one of their own.
The Canons of Dordt (the synod was held at Dordt)was formulated to check the false doctrines of the Arminians.
Is it not a wonder that what is being taught as 'gospel' today is what the established protestant church rejected?
No less a minister than the Rev. Augustus M. Toplady (author of the hymn,'Rock of Ages)asserted that Arminianism was the RCC's creation and he asserts that in England all Archbishops before Archbishop Laud were Calvinistic (reformed) in their theology and that Laud was the first deviation and when he died amongst his papers was a letter in which the writer jubilated over the Arminianism they had planted in the protestant churches and what fruit it was bearing.Google the  article, 'Arminianism:The Road To Rome'.
More later,please.
I sincerely hope I have not bored you.

@PastorAIO
Still on righteousness,don't you just love this passage:
[Quote]  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the WORKS OF THE LAW: for by the WORKS OF THE LAW shall no flesh be justified.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if RIGHTEOUSNESS come by LAW, then Christ is dead in vain Gal.2:16,21.
[/Quote]
If the righteousness that result in salvation  comes from keeping the law/commandments, doing good works, then Christ is dead in vain.
Anytime we see righteousness being used we must find out if it is the one of self or that imputed, it helps in the understanding of passages. A very wise Nairalander once said, 'context is king' !

Daiquiri:
Recalling my earlier post, Righteousness is next to impossible if not impossible hence the Righteousness of God in Christ

No, not a formula because genuineness of the confession, genuineness of the faith, genuineness of the act etc from the onset (i.e. in the first place) matters

Regardless of whether you go on sinning or not (i.e. when one trips up) one can come boldly to the throne of Grace obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need

To cut the mustard, it is the Righteousness of God in Christ that makes one righteous.

Very sound post.

Daiquiri:
I hear you but you the man! Sorry reply is a bit late

It is alright. I am enjoying your posts.

Pastor AIO:
I was a bit apprehensive about adding that part of my post cos I felt that you would jump on it and it would become a red herring.  And it seems that that is exactly what has happened.  You will not address anything else I said though it is more in line with the topic of our discussion.  

No wahala.  If Paul was persecuting christians because of their teachings of Grace (which included annulling circumcision) then please explain to me why after he had converted he still ended up arguing with Christians in Jerusalem (especially James) over this matter of circumcision and keeping the law.
I put it to you that the early christians did not teach annulment of the law and that is why they found it so shocking when Paul started preaching that circumcision wasn't necessary.   I say that you are making things up now.  Paul did not persecute christians for 'making void the law' as you put it.  


What do you have to say about these verses which continue on from the verses you quoted:

12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

You are complaining of red herrings? When you caught at my expression TILL DEATH, what did you think you were doing? From the context alone, was PHYSICAL death not  clearly implied?
He didn't argue with them, rather he was given a hand of fellowship and told to 'remember the poor' which he was very much disposed to (Gal.2:9 and 10).

unphilaz:
hi sola, great reply. am a believer in once saved, always saved which is contrary to armianism. another thing is i see mix up of the following-righteousness by d law and righteosness by faith which is a gift. i dont work for a GIFT, i simply accept it as i believe its given in good faith.

Thanks, I am glad to know.
I agree with you, that's why I have tried to distinguish the two ways of being righteous .

@PastorAIO
You want to take issues with what Paul said? Very surprising.
Paul was a keeper of the law and in this passage one can understand his persecution of Christ's disciples - he thought they were making void the law through their teaching of GRACE and so when he persecuted them, he thought he was doing God service. It was only after his conversion that he realised that the teaching of grace does nor invalidate the law (commandments) but rather upholds Rom3:31. Faith is the spring from which all GOOD WORKS flow.

Daiquiri:
^
My two cents worth

Justification - Just-as-if-havent-sinned . . .

Righteousness - Nike. Doing the Right thing, at Right time and still be Right with God. Impossible, hence the Righteousness of God in Christ

Salvation - Salvaged from eternal damnation through the redeeming power of the blood of Jesus

PS: Death the product of sin?

Thanks for the above. I just browsed through some of your other posts, great posts.

Pastor AIO:
My friend, that is not the meaning of justification or Justice. The Hebrew word Tsedeq is sometimes translated in some places as Justice and then in other places it is translated as Righteousness. These two words Justice and Righteousness are exactly the same word in Hebrew.

And it is the same in Greek. The word is Dikaios. It is sometimes translated as Justice and other times as Righteousness. That is why translations can be very confusing. It makes it seems as if there are 2 different words meaning two different things but that is not true.

To be Justified is to be made Just. In other words to be made Righteous. It doesn't mean that you are still unrighteous but God is going to pretend as if you are righteous. It means you are made Righteous and the result of this will show itself in your behaviour.

You are absolutely right in saying that Righteousness means doing the Right thing at the Right Time which is also being Right with God. You cannot be right with God if you are not doing the right thing.

And you are right when you say that that Righteousness of God is in Christ.
HOWEVER, you are wrong when you say that it is impossible. That it is possible is the whole point of Christianity. We can be IN CHRIST. To be in Christ is to be Righteous. It doesn't mean that God pretends we are righteous while we go on being black as Sin. No, We become righteous. And subsequently we live. And this becoming Righteous is Salvation.

They are two types of righteousness-the righteousness we have of ourselves (this is inherent) and that we receive of God, for Christ's sake(this is imputed). On believing in Jesus the latter is imputed to the believer and God regards him as righteous. The whole point of the whole Bible is that we cannot be right with God (justified before Him) by doing what the law requires; it made grace,Christ's coming,death, burial,resurrection necessary.It made righeousness by imputation necessary.Read Philippians 3:3-9, see how Paul denounces the righteousness gotten by the law and esteem it and all things about /of himself as dung . And to this end ' that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having my own righteousness,which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:'vs 9. Know this , the righteousness of God by faith is OF GOD and is the RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED , while that which comes from keeping the law (from works) is of SELF and is in truth SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS.
I hope I have done some clarification.

@Unphilaz
As to my mentors, my primary mentor is The LIving Bible. I read it on conversion and saw so many things so good that I doubted they were true and had to continually cross-check with the KJV. I had to read the epistles to the Romans,Galatians and Hebrews in particular to distinguish the roles of FAITH and WORKS since The Bible clearly says WORKS do not justify. About this time, by God's ordination, I saw two very RARE books on two different occasion at a bookstore by a post-office. The first was, Faith and Works: Cranmer and Hooker On Justification by Philip E Hughes and The Great Debate: Calvinism, Arminianism and Salvation by Alan Sell. I repeatedly read the former book until one day the truth it was teaching finally hit me, the same truth I had been getting from The Bible, SALVATION IS NOT DESERVED. This truth I will cherish, apply,teach,defend;TILL DEATH. By this time I had gotten the conviction that salvation could not be lost and from the latter book I got the theological name for this belief - Calvinism. And when I goggled it , I was enthralled by the numbers of articles on the subject and immediately clicked on , A Defence Of Calvinism by Charles H. Spurgeon and promply read it to the refreshing of my soul. Since then I have read a lot of articles on Calvinism and the converse Arminianism and have been greatly edified by them. Let me state here that Arminianism, which teaches that a believer can LOSE salvation is from the PIT OF HELL.
More later,please.

unphilaz:
5sola and tsammy, what you have posted is too deep for just any person on nl.each time i felt like writing on the above, i couldn't. who are your mentors? you are touching the real GOSPEL which are not preached on nl nor on the pulpit ie d too-good-to-be-true-news.

Thanks. Howeve, there are others who still subscribe to and teach the REAL GOSPEL.

thehomer:
If it wasn't Einstein, then you're spreading a lie or bearing false witness which will send you to hell with those feared atheists.
Really? You saw God, felt him and tasted him? What part did you taste and what did he taste like?
Oh well I guess I'm off to the lagoon now.

thehomer:
As you must have seen on this forum, atheists don't hate God.
Well, you may conclude that they're attacking anything Godly or Christian or could it be that the truth in this case has an anti-Christian bias?

Still here or are you speaking from the lagoon .

@Tsammy

By the very words that you write shows you are far from being born again, how can you be born again to kill a billion men, sleep with every girl, then what spirit are you born of, you want to go back to the very things that are paid for by the blood of Jesus, going back to the vomits, didn't you read what Paul said, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, the reply, God FORBID. So you want to continue in sin, then you were not born again.

To be justified does not give you the liberty to go and be sinning, Paul write in Galatians 5:1, stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us (you) free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage, going to kill, sleep with every girl is yoke of bondage. If you are born again, you've been given power to live above sin, Paul declared sin shall have no dominion over you - Romans 6:14. I pray for you in the name of Jesus that this truth abide in your spirit and control your body, so that you will live the God life, Amen.

Thanks for this lovely post. It reminds me of what Paul also said on the subject in Romans 3:31:

''Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:yea,we establish the law''.--KJV

''Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God's laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him''.--TLB

italo:
Roflmao, seriously you should consider being a comedian.

So being born of water and the spirit is not talking about baptism? Even your oga, wordtalk would not dare say that!

Pls try comedy, that might just be your calling.

Please explain how it translates to baptism. I really want to be instructed in the right way.

Pastor AIO:
Please o, e jor, Abegi, this is my new bone of contention. What do you mean by Justified?

You are accounted righteous by God and seen by Him as though you never committed a sin,on believing in Jesus.Your faith is counted for righteousness.

To cut a long story short; you are saveD!

Pastor AIO:
I think that all these words, Justice, Justified, Salvation, Grace, Love, Righteousness etc etc, are being used either without any real awareness of what they really mean, or perhaps which each discussant understanding the word differently from the other.  

I think, pertinent to this discussion, we each need to understand what the other means by Justified.

Pastor AIO:
A little help for those struggling with the basic concept of Justice and Justification.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-politics/#2

Actually, I just thoroughly recommend the reading of The Republic to help familiarise ourselves with the intricacies of the issue.

I think an article, dealing with those terms, from a Biblical perpective, would have been more to the purpose.

italo:
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.--John 3: 5.

Should we listen to you or Jesus?

Lol. Here you go again, is the discussion between me and Jesus? Have you proved your position tallies with Jesus' (the Bible's).
I do not see baptism in this passage, no, not at all. Why do you ignore verse three which is what Jesus goes on to explain as being 'born of water and the Spirit'? The passage is talking of the new birth,plain and simple.
In verse six , Jesus buttresses this by saying, it is not 'of flesh' ('not of self') ; does this sound familiar? Compare this with John 1:13;3:16,18,27,36;6:29,37,40,44,63 and 65.
What do you make of the words of Jesus in some of these verses?I see 'freewill' (works) beaten down there, and no mention of baptism,no,not by a long shot!

@Italo
No, Judas was not saved.
Yes, one can be saved without baptism.
Baptism is a WORK !!!
Salvation comes before any form of WORK(S)!!!

italo:
@wordtalk,

I hope you're not insinuating that baptism is not a work!

That a man will leave his house, go to the Church and submit himself to be submerged in water(in some cases), and that  is not a WORK or DEED? No you won't say that.

Whoever shall say baptism is not a work, let him be anathema called a liar  . Indeed it is a work, a good work. It is a deed, a good deed. No,

far be it for me, for one, to say that.

My assertion remains, IT DOESN’T SAVE!!!


Now bring out that verse from Peter you imagine to be your joker .

@PastorAIO [Quote] sorry o, I even forgot that this thread started with
an OP of how to preach to Roman Catholics. It turns
out that Italo's invitation for a quotation came after
a gross misrepresentation (in the name of a
paraphrase).
[\Quote]

How you can call my paraphrase a misrepresention,  I cannot fathom. Read my post #63 again, did the canon not say more than I did? Therefore , the canon is a grosser misrepresentation of Italo's position; nevertheless , as a true catholic, doubtless, he subscribes to it ![/quote]

Pastor AIO:
Mr Solas, the man quoted Jesus for you, you did not address what Jesus himself said. Instead you ran to go and quote Catholic Canon, but no one mentioned Catholic canon here. We are discussing the role of works in salvation, but you are just slyly trying to turn the issue into a catholic vs. protestant issue. Leave catholicism out of it. What do you think of what Jesus has to say in Matt 25.

I have replied this passage in my answer to Chukwudi in  post #33 thus:
[Quote]
See how you misunderstand the scripture! Did you notice, in this passage,  that the kingdom was prepared for those who would have eternal life , 'before the foundation of the world' ? Did you also notice that these persons are called, 'the righteous'? Read through the whole of the new testament , you will find that the basis of going to heaven is , 'belief' while that of going to hell is, 'unbelief'. The Lord Jesus did not change it in this passage. The people who did those good works were believers and it is their nature to do good works. It is not what saves them, but it shows to them they have the belief or faith, that saves.
[/Quote]

wordtalk:
But didn't italo himself invite a quoting (rather than 'paraphrase') of the aforementioned Catholic doctrine when he said in post #50: "The official declarations are not so long that they can't enter this thread, or are they?"

Thanks for the observation.

wordtalk:
Thanks 5solas. I've been trying to follow the discussions in both threads but have been quite busy as to be online to post comments. I appreciate how you handle these issues in a far simpler manner.

Humility Himself.I look forward to reading your posts, there is always something to learn. I am very happy you are back.

italo:
Chai! No wonder there's mass failure in exams these days. Tell them the same thing a million times, they still won't get it.

Lol. You are forever missing it, you know.

italo:
Gal 2: 16:
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified

Don't u c dat by 'works of the law' he's talking about traditional Jewish customs? The law of Moses which the Jews held fast to. Not the works that Christ tells us to do.

Do you read some of these verses or u jst go and copy from wordtalk and paste here?

Another pathetic and laughable post. What then was his point?
Let me tell you, he was saying salvation is, NOT DESERVED! Remember Ephesians 2:8 and 9, Titus
3:5?
He was saying works and the very type you have been advancing for salvation, do not save.
Paul says ‘works of righteousness' do not save in Titus 3: 5. Can you tell me what these works are?

italo:
Starting from your last post, I dare say that that which you wrote is not an official declaration of The Catholic Church. You didn't just 'paraphrase', you intentionally and maliciously distorted it - and that wasn't necessary. The official declarations are not so long that they can't enter this thread, or are they?

5solas:
@Italo
Alright, I will be waiting. But I am sure it is sufficiently clear that Rom 11:6 throws all you will ever say into the dust bin. For the whole substance of the apostle's 'post', is that salvation cannot be both by grace and works . Read it in several versions, if you still don't get it though, I won't be surprised . For you are a good follower of the tradition of your church and one of your canons run thus, (I paraphrase):
'' If any one shall say that salvation is by grace alone, let him be anathema (accursed)'', in direct contradiction to virtually the whole Bible. Read Romans 4:1-6 for an example.
According to your canon then even the Lord stands accursed.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a038.html
There,you have your canon and the link. Hmm, I didn’t even know that the ‘grace’ you grant needs man’s co-operation. It is not even grace!- Read Romans 11:6 again and we are yet to add the ‘works’ you advocate.

italo:
I know that your mind is blocked so you do not perceive but all these WORDS and JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT will be the ones to judge you as you continue to spread false teaching and hate, saying, the Catholic Church's teachings are unscriptural despite all the scriptural evidence to the contrary. Dominus vobiscum.

Thank you.
What is Dominus vobiscum?I hope it is not one of the anathemas? I hear they are at least thirty on the doctrine of justification alone.

italo:
Eph 2: 8,9,10 goes: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice how verse 8 says 'through faith - and that isn't from yourselves, it's a gift from God. And verse 9 says not by works, so no man can boast.
Verse 10 caps it up by saying 'we are created in Christ and destined by God to do good works'

To summarize we have faith in God and do Good works by the Grace of God. So we are saved by grace.

Does that mean faith is not necessary? No!
Does that mean works are not necessary? No!
Does that contradict my position? No! - infact it buttresses it.

Seriously, your handling of the above verses is rather pathetic. Firstly, you repeat almost verbatim what verse 8 and 9 says (with no explanations) and secondly, you pounce on the exultation given to the saved to do good works and claim victory.
Verse 8 of this verse buttresses what I have been saying, that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone-this is a positive declaration. It goes on to declare it in the negative for clarity sake-NOT OF YOURSELVES. Verse 9 pursues the matter further by declaring in the same negative-NOT BY WORKS.
To jump to verse 10 saying it ”caps it up” is really laughable.
In truth, verse 10 is not much different from 8 and 9 for it starts by re-affirming that salvation is by grace, through faith, not of our selves , not of works; BECAUSE (as your version puts it) ‘’we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’’.
From this verse, please explain how it is possible that a person so created will not do good works.
But to the subject, the good works here come after salvation. Look at the letters of Paul, you will find this to be true, he first tells his listeners the way to eternal life is by faith in Christ and not by works, thereafter he tells them as believers they should do good works, bring forth fruits, which indicate they are saved. THE GOOD WORKS COME AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.THEY ARE THEREFORE ‘EFFECTS’ AND NOT ‘CAUSES’ OF SALVATION.
Please don’t tell us that Paul each time, after labouring to establish salvation by grace (without works) always end up destroying this sweet teaching.

The rest of your reply amounts to mere cavillation.

Very hilarious post. Could not help laughing.
I love a good sneeze !
Well, not quite, it is the effect of the sneeze I love.

@Italo
, and also killed thousands of protestants for denying transubstantiation?

@ Italo
The same 'church' (for cult is more like it) that killed thousands of protestants for their views on justification?

@Italo
It is important that you give an explanation of what you think salvation is and when it is gotten, otherwise you will both be using the same word for different things.

@Italo
Alright, I will be waiting. But I am sure it is sufficiently clear that Rom 11:6 throws all you will ever say into the dust bin. For the whole substance of the apostle's 'post', is that salvation cannot be both by grace and works . Read it in several versions, if you still don't get it though, I won't be surprised . For you are a good follower of the tradition of your church and one of your canons run thus, (I paraphrase):
'' If any one shall say that salvation is by grace alone, let him be anathema (accursed)'', in direct contradiction to virtually the whole Bible. Read Romans 4:1-6 for an example.
According to your canon then even the Lord stands accursed.