₦airaland Forum

What an awesome post and testimony!

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I'd loved to have much chance to reply and quote scripture passages but it seems i might keep postponing, so permit me to reply in bits, ouch for me though.

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Ok. The floor is all yours. Just let me know when you are through.

mabell:
This sounds familiar
@Loveking, you once said you wanted to apply for the post of the antichrist!
I hope your reason for this thread is genuine

Brilliant recall.

yommyuk:
A misapplication of the concept of salvation by grace has led to a division between faith and works. Salvation is not achieved by works, but neither is it without works

Yeah, it results in good works. Great post.

Ok,thanks.

Hi, Image.
Quite an age! Whatever is happening? I thought we were having a ball? I am expecting to hear from you soon,sha.

Image123:
@5solas
i just read your replies, no qualms do take your time. Please do not infer from my post that the difference between the believer alive today and the one dead is merely a frustration of grace. Not at all. My focus wasn't even believers, believers don't frustrate God's grace as often as unbelievers. It may be in God's plan for a person to have died last year, that's accepted. But i'm also saying God may have had better plans of life for a person but he might have become careless/carefree/disobedient/not watchful causing him to be exposed.(just chipped this in, hope it doesn't take the 'focus' off the previous)

I have been using 'believer' instead of 'unbeliever' deliberately. I wanted it to be clear that it was possible for God not to give His faithful servant the grace to see this year for His own purpose.Now consider the case of His faithful servant Stephen (Acts 6:8-7:60). Judge by the features I have given before if it was His secret will that Stephen should be killed or not.

The secret will removes all merit and boasting from us and gives all that we are, to His grace.
I think I have touched on all the points you raised, to the best of my ability;over to you.

Just to slip in my favourite Luther quote from the said book,''Since God's foreknowledge is not uncertain, "free-will" is non-existent


It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it. Surely it was you, my good Erasmus, who a moment ago asserted that God is by nature just, and kindness itself? If this is true, does it not follow that He is immutably just and kind? that, as His nature remains unchanged to all eternity, so do His justice and kindness? And what is said of His justice and kindness must be said also of His knowledge, His wisdom, His goodness, His will, and the other Divine attributes. But if it is religious, godly and wholesome, to affirm these things of God, as you do, what has come over you, that now you should contradict yourself by affirming that it is irreligious, idle and vain to say that God foreknows by necessity? You insist that we should learn the immutability of God's will, while forbidding us to know the immutably of His foreknowledge! Do you suppose that He does not will what He foreknows, or that He does not foreknow what He wills? If he wills what He foreknows, His will is eternal and changeless, because His nature is so. From which it follows, by resistless logic, that all we do, however it may appear to us to be done freely and optionally, is in reality done necessarily and immutably in respect of God's will. For the will of God is effective and cannot be impeded, since power belongs to God's nature; and His wisdom is such that He cannot be deceived. Since, then His will is not impeded, what is done cannot but be done where, when, how, as far as, and by whom, He foresees and wills,




Necessarily does not mean Compulsorily


I could wish, indeed, that a better term was available for our discussion than the accepted one, necessity, which cannot accurately be used of either man's will or God's. Its meaning is too harsh, and foreign to the subject; for it suggests some sort of compulsion, and something that is against one's will, which is no part of the view under debate. This will, whether it be God's or man's does what it does, good or bad, under no compulsion, but just as it wants or pleases, as if totally free. Yet the will of God, which rules over our mutable will, is changeless and sure - as Boetius sings, "Immovable Thyself, Thou movement giv'st to all;" and our will, principally because of its corruption, can do no good of itself. The reader's understanding, therefore, must supply what the word itself fails to convey, from his knowledge of the intended signification - the immutable will of God on the one hand, and the impotence of our corrupt will on the other. Some have called it necessity of immutability, but the phrase is both grammatically and theologically defective.




The importance of knowing that God necessitates all things


I would also point out, not only how true these things are (I shall discuss that more fully from Scripture on a later page), but also how godly, reverent and necessary it is to know them. For where they are not known, there can be no faith, nor any worship of God. To lack this knowledge is really to be ignorant of God - and salvation is notoriously incompatible with such ignorance. For if you hesitate to believe, or are too proud to acknowledge, that God foreknows and wills all things, not contingently, but necessarily and immutably, how can you believe, trust and rely on His promises? When He makes promises, you ought to be out of doubt that He knows, and can and will perform, what He promises; otherwise, you will be accounting Him neither true nor faithful, which is unbelief, and the height of irreverence, and a denial of the most high God! And how can you be thus sure and certain, unless you know that certainly, infallibly, immutably and necessarily, He knows, wills and will perform what He promises? Not only should we be sure that God wills, and will execute His will, necessarily and immutably; we should glory in the fact, as Paul does in Romans 3:4 - "Let God be true, but every man a liar", and again, "Not that the word of God has failed," and in another place, "The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are His." In Titus 1:2 he says: "Which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began", If, then, we are taught and believe that we ought to be ignorant of the necessary foreknowledge of God and the necessity of events, Christian faith is utterly destroyed, and the promises of God and the whole gospel fall to the ground completely; for the Christian's chief and only comfort in every adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered or impeded.




A will which has no power without grace is not free


You describe the power of "free-will" as small, and wholly ineffective apart from the grace of God. Agreed? Now then, I ask you: If God's grace is wanting, if it is taken away from that small power, what can it do? It is ineffective, you say, and can do nothing good. So it will not do what God or His grace wills. Why? Because we have now taken God's grace away from it, and what the grace of God does not do is not good. Hence it follows that "free-will" without God's grace is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil, since it cannot turn itself to good. This being so, I give you full permission to enlarge the power of "free-will" as much as you like; make it angelic, make it divine, if you can! - but when you add this doleful postscript, that it is ineffective apart from God's grace, straightway you rob it of all its power. What is ineffective power but (in plain language) no power? So to say that "free-will" exists and has power, albeit ineffective power, is, in the Sophists' phrase, a contradiction in terms. It is like saying "'free-will' is something which is not free" - as if you said that fire is cold and earth hot. Fire certainly has power to heat; but if hell-fire (even) was cold and chilling instead of burning and scorching, I would not call it "fire", let alone "hot" (unless you meant to refer to an imaginary fire, or a painted one). Note, however, that if we meant by "the power of free-will" the power which makes human beings fit subjects to be caught up by the Spirit and touched by God's grace, as creatures made for eternal life or eternal death, we should have a proper definition. And I certainly acknowledge the existence of this power, this fitness, or "dispositional quality" and "passive aptitude" (as the Sophists call it), which, as everyone knows, is not given to plants or animals. As the proverb says, God did not make heaven for geese! It is a settled truth, then, even on the basis of your own testimony, that we do everything of necessity, and nothing by "free-will"; for the power of "free-will" is nil, and it does no good, nor can do, without grace. It follows, therefore, that "free-will" is obviously a term applicable only to Divine Majesty; for only He can do, and does (as the Psalmist sings) "whatever he wills in heaven and earth" [Psalms 135:6]. If "free-will" is ascribed to men, it is ascribed with no more propriety than divinity itself would be - and no blasphemy could exceed that! So it befits theologians to refrain from using the term when they want to speak of human ability, and to leave it to be applied to God only. They would do well also to take the term out of men's mouths and speech, and to claim it for their God, as if it were His own holy and awful Name. If they must at all hazards assign some power to men, let them teach that it be denoted by some other term than "free-will"; especially since we know from our own observation that the mass of men are sadly deceived and misled by this phrase. The meaning which it conveys to their minds is far removed from anything that theologians believe and discuss. The term "free-will" is too grandiose and comprehensive and fulsome. People think it means what the natural force of the phrase would require, namely, a power of freely turning in any direction, yielding to none and subject to none. If they knew that this was not so, and that the term signifies only a tiny spark of power, and that utterly ineffective in itself, since it is the devil's prisoner and slave, it would be a wonder if they did not stone us as mockers and deceivers, who say one thing and mean another - indeed, who have not yet decided what we do mean! Since, therefore, we have lost the meaning and the real reference of this glorious term, or, rather, have never grasped them (as was claimed by the Pelagians, who themselves mistook the phrase) why do we cling so tenaciously to an empty word, and endanger and delude faithful people in consequence? There is no more wisdom in so doing then there is in the modern foible of kings and potentates, who retain, or lay claim to, empty titles of kingdoms and countries, and flaunt them, while all the time they are really paupers, and anything but the possessors of those kingdoms and countries. We can tolerate their antics, for they fool nobody, but just feed themselves up - unprofitably enough - on their own vainglory. But this false idea of "free-will" is a real threat to salvation, and a delusion fraught with the most perilous consequences. If we do not want to drop this term ["free-will"] altogether - which would really be the safest and most Christian thing to do - we may still in good faith teach people to use it to credit man with "free-will" in respect, not of what is above him, but of what is below him. That is to say, man should realize that in regard to his money and possessions he has a right to use them, to do or to leave undone, according to his own "free-will" - though that very "free-will" is overruled by the free-will of God alone, according to His own pleasure. However, with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, he has no "free-will", but is a captive, prisoner and bondslave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan''.

—"Moreover I consider Free-will in this light: that it is a power in the human will, by which, a man may apply himself to those things which lead unto eternal salvation, or turn away from the same."—
Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam
The above is a typical example of the ‘freewill’ that is so false by perhaps the ‘’grandfather of ‘freewill’’’ in his book, The Freedom Of The Will,
It was soundly refuted by the reformer, Martin Luther in his book, The Bondage of the Will.
You can read Luther’s book here http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#apref and the abridged version here http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm

Image123:
@5solas
i see the two i.e 'foreknowledge' and 'free will' in the scriptures, not just one. Here are some examples and demonstration of free will.
Leviticus 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Exodus 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Matthew [color=#990000]22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son.
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and [size=8pt][b]they would not come

.
Well , first of all, I thank you because I could have sworn even the word , ‘freewill’ was not in the Bible and here you have sharpened me with two references. Thank you.
However, the concept of ‘freewill’ in these passages is different from that I have been opposing.
I am in opposition to the ‘freewill’ that makes God dependent on Man for His Foreknowledge  and that which puts eternal life in Man's hands instead of God’s.
The 'freewill' in the passages above could never have decided who saw 2011 and who didn't.

@Image.
Ok. I get it, you were talking of 'freewill'[/b]and [b]foreknowledge. Pray then, where does that leave predestination?

Image123:
@5solas
I'd emphasise the two because they're both in the scriptures. Supporting one only of the two will not be complete truth, and may be a denial of the whole scripture and mind of God.

You did not address my concern well enough here. I had said:

5solas:
.
The formulators of ‘freewill’ were quick and ready to emphasize ‘freewill’ and to de-emphasize foreknowledge and predestination just so they could make God ‘fair’. Is it not ironic seeing that the latter are biblical terms while the former is not?
In effect then, as far as the ‘freewill’ tenet was maintained , they were satisfied, let men think what they may of the plainly revealed divine attributes. How sad!

What two were you actually talking of. There are actually three concepts there.

@Image.
More later,God willing.
However I will be delighted to hear your reply on my posts so far.

Image123:
@5solas
81:13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
Psa 81:14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.
Psa 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured forever.
Psa 81:16 He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.[/color]
The 'should' is what God wanted to do(secret to the israelites) for the Israelites who came out of egypt, but because of their deeds,His plan wasn't fulfilled. he planned to give them not just water, but honey out of the rock.

is this outlined criteria in the bible? if yes, where please.

I  had before observed that Psalm 81 does not talk about the secret will of God. I will now give an example apart from that of Joseph.
1.The death of Christ.
It was God’s secret will that Christ should be crucified. Note this about the crucifixion:
i. It was  unknown to those who carried out the act
ii. It was not enjoined on them so to do
iii. The act was carried out without fail
iv. Known to be God’s will for the fact that it happened
v. The people involved in the act were inexcusable!(not without sin)
Compare this with the case of Joseph and you will see all the above features running through and wherever and whenever you see these features you see God’s secret will at work.

@Image. Your last post was instructive and remarkable, more remarks later, please.

Image123:
@5solas
you know more about secret wills than i do sir. Here is the revealed one below

Jonah[color=#990000] 3:2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Lol. Please let’s not flog dead horses. Answer the simple question below, let’s move on.

5solas:
Image you have to answer the question below:
As at the time God was sending Jonah to Nineveh, did He know to a certainty that He would not destroy Nineveh after Jonah would have given His message to them?

Image123:
@5solas
Errrrrrrrrh, i thought i did? Here " [color=#550000]'why did you see the new year?' answer is most definitely by God's grace. But we must not forget those who are able to frustrate that grace and go 'before their time'

You answered the bolded, to the question, ''Why did you get to see year 2011 and the other person didnt?''. Am I to infer therefore that from your point of view, the difference between believers who didn’t see 2011 and those who did, is that the one ‘was able to frustrate God’s grace’ and the other wasn’t?

@ Image.

Thanks for your submissions. I will reply by this time tomorrow, God willing.

Image123:
@5solas
I saw your reply since yesterday. I'll like to back my replies with scriptures, so please give me till like 2days to full reply, thanks.
On secret will[/b]s, do read Psalm 81v13-16. It [b]seems to speak of a secret will frustrated. What i'm establishing from the scriptures is that God's will/plan can in some cases be followed/disobeyed by man. He made us with that feature it seems.

Well, I am happy you now so much as grant that there is a secret will. However, I do not see it in the passage you quoted above. The passage talks of the consequences of violating His precepts (revealed will). The very nature of His secret will is that:
1. it is unknown to us
2. not enjoined on us
3. always fulfilled
4. known for the fact that it has happened.

More on this later, if God permits!

Image123:
.Can you name one of His secret wills? How then do you know that we cannot frustrate it.
Eccesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
I believe God has given us His word(the Bible) so that we may know His will,, and follow it for our good. It's how choice to make and He is very willing and able to aid us.

Quite an easy undertaking, dear Image. Please endeavour to read the Joseph story, for example (Gen.37-50).
It was God’s secret will that Joseph should be sent to Egypt. The brothers could not frustrate it. Lol, how can you frustrate what you don’t even know about. Much good their ‘freewill’ accomplished for them! I hope you read also in Psalm105:17 as well as Genesis 45; 5; and 50:20 that God sent Him (Joseph), to Egypt!

[/quote][quote author=Image123 link=topic=577829.msg7586852#msg7586852 date=1295792901]If He couldn't have died, He wouldn't have bothered to escape or hide himself, or strictly charge people not to reveal His identity. When He was to die, He told them Himself, and viola, they started stopping ears, tearing shirts and nailing hands. He knew the plan and played His part in the plan., submitting to it even when tempted not to. Was He tempted, yes?
God wouldn't have been stripped of anything that is His. There are some people who think it is disrespect to call God's name or write His name. There are some people who clean their pen and themselves before and after writing "GOD". I think this are all naive human concepts(harmless and not sinful to me btw), it's not about stripping God of any attributes. God is GOD. He can't cease to be God, whatever the word cease may mean again.

Lol at the bolded. Don’t you realise dear Image, that God does not only ordain the end but th e means thereunto.
The formulators of ‘freewill’ were quick and ready to emphasize ‘freewill’ and to de-emphasize foreknowledge and predestination just so they could make God ‘fair’. Is it not ironic seeing that the latter are biblical terms while the former is not?
In effect then as far as the ‘freewill’ tenet was maintained , they were satisfied, let men think what they may of the plainly revealed divine attributes. How sad!

Image123:
.Says who @the bolded? I didn't say that the knowledge of God's will/plan should make one tempt God. What i've said is that if one tempts God, God's will/plan can be changed inspite of the knowledge. A positive example for you then, God said Nineveh was going to be destroyed. They repented and things were changed. You can't say "Note that Nineveh must be destroyed in 40days because the Holy Spirit revealed it".

I had said in my very first post that my efforts did not count on my seeing 2011.I laid it wholly on God’s grace and you responded by saying ,’’But don't try sleeping across the third mainland bridge lagos sha, that grace will deny you sharp sharp.lol. We're not God's zombies but partners together with Him’’.I am now confused as to what you were trying to say.

Image you have to answer the question below:
As at the time God was sending Jonah to Nineveh, did He know to a certainty that He would not destroy Nineveh after Jonah would have given His message to them?

I brought in foreknowledge,not knowledge; just so we are focused.

Image123:
@5solasI do believe in foreknowledge, but knowledge and grace do not mean the same thing, do they? The OP is on GRACE, not knowledge. You bring in knowledge into the discuss and have always sounded fatalistic from my knowledge of you. So sorry if i'm wrong sha.

The OP is on grace,yes. The grace of God is about what God does (the works of God) and this is opposed to what Man does (the works of Man).When you talk of the works of Man you are also talking of their will/’freewill’. Related to any discourse on grace and ‘freewill’ are foreknowledge and predestination.
Furthermore I had to answer the OP’s question highlighted below.

''Why did you get to see year 2011 and the other person didnt?''.

You should also give your take on it.

Image123:
]
Wisdom is profitable to direct. Even from the beginning of Christ's ministry, He never lived in recklessness. He knew better than to tempt God.
Matthew 4:6  And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7  Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
he knew God's plan and purpose and sought to do it/fulfil it. Even when the time came, He still could have escaped. His will wanted Him to escape, Judas was slack, the false witnesses were not agreed, Pilate almost changed it, even the people who came to arrest Him were falling helter skelter. but thank God He prayed at Gethsamane, and God answered His prayers as usual. We too can pray and change things.I'll quote myself again below.
"Jesus could have been killed before time, but He escaped. The Israelites that left egypt were supposed to get to canaan. It was God's plan for them, but they frustrated it."
Do you know that God's plan for Israel was the promised land, and not death in the wilderness? It is possible for we humans to actually make God's Word of no effect. Jesus Himself said that the pharisees did that countless times. I continue to say it, God did not make us as zombies but as 'in His image'. We have a lot of capacity(more than we realise), that's what makes satan so incensed. There is no blow to man's freewill. It is what God Himself made, and it's all over scriptues from the 1st chapter to the last chapter, literally.

Concerning God’s plan/will, I think the concept of God’s revealed and secret will will help throw some light on your submission above.God’s revealed will is His will as you have stated above. It is His will as revealed in scripture and prescribed to us and this we can and often defy.His secret will however is unknown to us and not prescribed to us. We cannot frustrate it. You  can read more about this by clicking this link : http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/wills_sproul.html.

Image123:
Okay 5solas, welcome back.
The above verses do not say a thing different from what i've said. Please, we should search the scriptures, they are complete and available to us. The 4 gospels complement one another and show us the full picture. If we just take some few verses, there's the danger of not getting the complete message. Take a look at the passages below and compare to what i've said.
John 10:39  Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
John 10:40  And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.

John 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Matthew 12:14  Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
Mat 12:15  But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mat 12:16  And charged them that they should not make him known:

Wisdom is profitable to direct. Even from the beginning of Christ's ministry, He never lived in recklessness. He knew better than to tempt God.
Matthew 4:6  And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7  Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
he knew God's plan and purpose and sought to do it/fulfil it. Even when the time came, He still could have escaped. His will wanted Him to escape, Judas was slack, the false witnesses were not agreed, Pilate almost changed it, even the people who came to arrest Him were falling helter skelter. but thank God He prayed at Gethsamane, and God answered His prayers as usual. We too can pray and change things.I'll quote myself again below.
"Jesus could have been killed before time, but He escaped. The Israelites that left egypt were supposed to get to canaan. It was God's plan for them, but they frustrated it."
Do you know that God's plan for Israel was the promised land, and not death in the wilderness? It is possible for we humans to actually make God's Word of no effect. Jesus Himself said that the pharisees did that countless times. I continue to say it, God did not make us as zombies but as 'in His image'. We have a lot of capacity(more than we realise), that's what makes satan so incensed. There is no blow to man's freewill. It is what God Himself made, and it's all over scriptues from the 1st chapter to the last chapter, literally.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Image, you have to realise that Christ could not have died other than He did ,for the simple reason that all the particulars of His death (time, place, manner) were foreknown, predestined and foretold by His father and if any of these had happened otherwise, then would God have been stripped of His foreknowledge, power to decree, foretell and necessarily of every of His attributes and hence cease to be God.

Luke 2:25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,,

The verses above show that foreknowledge or predestination do not necessarily carry fatality with them.Note that Simeon could not have died without seeing Christ and note also that this knowledge did not make him tempt the Lord by being suicidal.

Image123:
But don't try sleeping across the third mainland bridge lagos sha, that grace will deny you sharp sharp.lol. We're not God's zombies but partners together with Him.

In my insistence that things happen as foreknown by God, I must refer to this post of yours.
When I said it was absolutely by God's grace I saw 2011, did I in anyway infer I tried to take my life and couldn't?

All things happen as God foreknew before the foundation of the world. And we as believers can believe this without resorting to fatalism. We can believe God is in charge of every aspect of life and still trust Him to help us be the best we can.

Image123:
Jesus could have been killed before time, but He escaped. The Israelites that left egypt were supposed to get to canaan. It was God's plan for them, but they frustrated it.

John7:30
Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.
John8: 20
These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.


Image, do you still maintain in the light of the verses above , that Jesus could have been killed before His time?

Image123:
One can die before 'his time', believer or unbeliever

So untrue. Peter was told what death he would go through to glorify God. It could not have been otherwise (John 21:19).

Image123:
. And on the other hand, if you know your time like king Hezekiah in scriptures, you may extend it.

So false. If God had not decided in eternity to grant Hezekiah fifteen more years , He would not have done so in time.Nothing can happen which God did not know in advance. I am now talking of His foreknowledge, a big blow to the ‘freewill’ of men

@Frosbel

Thanks for sharing. His methods are quite unorthodox and alien to what I perceive true christianity to be. His added charity sways me not a bit.

Congrats, Joagbaje.

BigBashiru:
@5solas
im back now with full force :-)
The issue here is not context, God knows English more than us; Judas was a disciple but hated.

Welcome back! I just finished the book of John about two weeks ago and it said a lot about Christ’s love for His disciples, his ‘'own’’.

13:1¶ Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
15:9  ¶ As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
16:27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father.
There are more that I can bring up, particularly by inference. Please consider these for now.
Concerning Judas, one can safely say he was not of the elects, he was not one of those given to Jesus.