₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=651586.msg8415913#msg8415913 date=1306692574][color=#000099]5solas,

thanks for the additions, was even preparing my next case study on that passage you used. No worries, i'll still come to that.[/quote]Thanks. I will be watching. This thread is so remarkable that I believe it will be on the first page for a long time.

@OP

Great post.

Obalende:
Image123 wrote:
Image123, I see you are working for darkness by propagating a false teaching. Jesus said only few will be saved and go to heaven with majority going to hell and the smoke of their torment ascending up to God forever. God allows the god of this world to blind people that they CANNOT believe. Jesus said no one can come to the Father unless God draws him. Only those in the book of life will be saved, the rest are cursed to hell. Its time we preached the true gospel.

Great post. I was coming there. Image should realise that no man can turn except God first turns him  . Trust him however to retort and say, ''God turns everyone''!  .

Obalende:
@5solas
Man is a puppet in Gods hands. Mans actions are coerced by either God or the devil, such actions emanating to what has been put in his mind by God or the devil; the mind likened to a battlefield. God hardens hearts to send to hell eventually, softens hearts.
"Thine people shall be willing in the day of thine power" the bible says.

Well, I won't argue the point,for now. If you read my post again, you will notice I was suffering from the antinomy  .

@OP

A sobering post, I'll be guided. Thanks.

Great post, Tonye.

I think Man cannot rightly be described as a puppet because his actions are not coerced and are done contingently ; though he can do nothing other than what God foreknows and ordains.

[Quote]
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel,
were gathered together,
28 [b]For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.[/b]Acts 4:26-28.
[/Quote]

Also, it seems dishonouring to liken God to a puppeteer. I hope you don't degenerate to seeing Him as evil.
However, I am happy for you, if you gained your understanding of God's Sovereignty,Omnipotence and Foreknowledge from this similitude.
Perhaps you are safer with this similitude:
[Quote]
1 ¶ The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jeremiah 18: 1-6
[/Quote]

Image123:
I asked and i'm still asking for a concise meaning/definition of 'fate' and of 'predestination'.

The following article extracted from the book, ''The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination'' by Loraine Boettner, gives some insights to your question.
[Quote]
Chapter XV - That It Is Fatalism
Much misunderstanding arises through confusing the Christian Doctrine of Predestination with the heathen doctrine of Fatalism. There is, in reality, only one point of agreement between the two, which is, that both assume the absolute certainty of all future events. The essential difference between them is that Fatalism has no place for a personal God. Predestination holds that events come to pass because an infinitely wise, powerful, and holy God has so appointed them. Fatalism holds that all events come to pass through the working of a blind, unintelligent, impersonal, non-moral force which cannot be distinguished from physical necessity, and which carries us helplessly within its grasp as mighty river carries a piece of wood.

Predestination teaches that from eternity God has had one unified plan or purpose which He is bringing to perfection through this world order of events. It holds that all of His decrees are rational determinations founded on sufficient reason, and that He has fixed one great goal "toward which the whole creation moves." Predestination holds that the ends designed in this plan are first, the glory of God; and second, the good of His people. On the other hand Fatalism excludes the idea of final causes. It snatches the reins of universal empire from the hands of infinite wisdom and love, and gives them into the hands of a blind necessity. It attributes the course of nature and the experiences of man-kind to an unknown, irresistible force, against which it is vain to struggle and childish to repine.

According to the doctrine of Predestination the freedom and responsibility of man are fully preserved. In the midst of certainty God has ordained human liberty. But Fatalism allows no power of choice, no self-determination. It makes the acts of man to be as utterly beyond his control as are the laws of nature. personal, abstract power, has no room for moral ideas, while Predestination makes these the rule of action for God and man. Fatalism has no place for and offers no incentives to religion, love, mercy, holiness, justice, or wisdom, while Predestination gives these the strongest conceivable basis. And lastly, Fatalism leads to skepticism and despair, while Predestination sets forth the glories of God and of His kingdom in all their splendor and gives an assurance which nothing can shake.

Predestination therefore differs from Fatalism as much as the acts of a man differ from those of a machine, or as much as the unfailing love of the heavenly Father differs from the force of gravitation. "It reveals to us," says Smith, "the glorious truth that our lives and our sensitive hearts are held, not in the iron cog-wheels of a vast and pitiless Fate, nor in the whirling loom of a crazy Chance, but in the almighty hands of an infinitely good and wise God."1

Calvin emphatically repudiated the charge that his doctrine was Fatalism. "Fate," says he, "is a term given by the Stoics to their doctrine of necessity, which they had formed out of a labyrinth of contradictory reasonings; a doctrine calculated to call God Himself to order, and to set Him laws whereby to work. Predestination I define to be, according to the Holy Scriptures, that free and unfettered counsel of God by which He rules all mankind, and all men and things, and also all parts and particles of the world by His infinite wisdom and incomprehensible justice." And again, ", , had you but been willing to look into my books, you would have been convinced at once how offensive to me is the profane term fate: nay, you would have learned that this same abhorrent term was cast in the teeth of Augustine by his opponents."2

Luther says that the doctrine of Fatalism among the heathen is a proof that "the knowledge of Predestination and of the prescience of God, was no less left in the world than the notion of divinity itself." 3 In the history of philosophy Materialism has proven itself essentially fatalistic. Pan theism also has been strongly tinged with it.

No man can be a consistent fatalist. For to be consistent he would have to reason something like this: "If I am to die today, it will do me no good to eat, for I shall die anyway. Nor do I need to eat if I am to live many years yet, for I shall live anyway. Therefore I will not eat." Needless to say, if God has foreordained that a man shall live, He has also foreordained that he shall be kept from the suicidal folly of refusing to eat.

"This doctrine," says Hamilton, "is only superficially like the pagan 'fate.' The Christian is in the hands not of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving heavenly Father, who loved us and gave His Son to die for us on Calvary! The Christian knows that 'all things work together for good to them that love God, even to them that are called according to His purpose.' The Christian can trust God because he knows He is all-wise, loving, just and holy. He sees the end from the beginning, so that there is no reason to become panicky when things seem to be going against us."

Hence, only a person who has not examined this doctrine of Predestination, or one who is maliciously inclined, will rashly charge that it is Fatalism. There is no excuse for anyone making this mistake who knows what Predestination is and what Fatalism is.

Since the universe is one systematized unit we must choose between Fatalism, which ultimately does away with mind and purpose, and this biblical doctrine of Predestination, which holds that God created all things, that His providence extends to all His works, and that while free Himself He has also provided that we shall be free within the limits of our natures. Instead of our doctrine of Predestination being the same with the heathen doctrine of Fatalism, it is its absolute opposite and only alternative.
http://www.bloomingtonrpchurch.org/refdocpre/15.htm[/quote]

^{^^^}

One day, some years ago, I was thinking about predestination and if it was true.Knowing that it was supported by the concept of foreknowledge, I tried to find something to do, something I could be sure God did not know about before the performance, I found no such thing.

Now I say with the psalmist;

[Quote]
1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2[b] Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.[/b]
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 ¶ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 ¶ How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Psalm139:1-18[/quote]

Image123:
Yes, thanks for your patience 5solas. Like i said, i'll relate freewill to the original post again. Freewill is our own will, what we decide, of our own volition. Like Paul says in romans, "yield yourself to God".God has created us with ability to function and make decisions on our own. But His plan/desire is a relationship despite man's fall. i picture it as a doctor-patient relationship. The doctor God wants to heal and help the patient Man. Man can cooperate and get health smoothly. He may decide he doesn't need a doctor God, and remain sick and suffer. Or in some cases, the doctor may 'doctor' the event, sedate the patient and treat him. I pray God doesn't abandon us, or we abandon God like the stubborn patient.
Now, if someone says i have a doctor God who's even paid for my treatment, and then refuses to eat, or carelessly takes in poison or overdose, he may die or harm himself. If we say what will happen will happen, God has already predestined/ordained it, grace covers everything. Then we remove our doors and burglary-proof saying it's not by power or might, watchman wakes in vain. Do you think such persons will be safe for long? Such persons cannot stand when the storm comes as compared to those who watched. His actions do not glorify God and His will but frustrate God's grace.

First of all Image, I must say I am surprised you did not come up with any new argument.
Secondly, you did not answer any of my outstanding questions.
Thirdly, you talk of points we agree on as though I am in disagreement.
The 'freewill' you have been talking about above, surely they did not determine our seeing 2011 or did they?

BigBashiru:
I used to think believers cannot lose salvation but after further research, I have been slightly persuaded otherwise. Look at the parable of the sower, that parable is referring to believers; ultimately God does what He wants with human beings.

Whilst Calvinism is very comforting,it may not be accurate after all. I agree certain believers will not lose salvation; others who fell on the "bad soil" may indeed lose.

I am basing my precept on the parable of the sower and also playing advocate here,

I had like to know how you came about Calvinism in the first place and if the other 4 points of Calvinism are still 'glorious'.
I had noticed in your post before now, some inaccuracies. One of them was your belief that Christ hated some of the disciples and you know I tried to show you it was not so. Another was your saying we were mere puppets (programmed robots) in God's hands, unfortunately I never got to reasoning with you on this. These two positions alone, show your leaning towards Hypercalvinism - a position which both Calvinists and Arminians (principal parties to this debate) abhor.

Image123:
i believe we often miss the context in which we say God is all knowing. i know that might sound 'shocking heresy' to you so let me explain. Like when we say God can do anything(omnipotent), we should by growth in knowledge realise, in context, that He cannot sin, die or lie. Yet He can do all things, right?
In the same vein, we need to grow in knowledge of God to undertand His omniscience more, especially in line with the whole scripture, not some creed or partial bible quoting.

Image123:
5solas
Do you agree with the unbolded part about omnipotence?

[Quote]
Numbers23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Titus1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
[/Quote]
No, I do not agree with the unbolded.I see in the verses above, reinforcements of the faithfulness of God. If you think they make Him less omnipotent or less omnipotent in some respect, as your post above seems to suggest, please tell us.

@Mabell.
[Quote]

What is going to be is not going to be

[/Quote]

With all due respect, the above is a blatant contradiction.

@Image.

Predestination is a Biblical concept while Fate is not.

@image .

Jesus knew He was going to be crucified, inevitably so; yet, He watched and prayed and encouraged His disciples to watch with Him.

'What is going to be is going to be' is VERY true. If our Lord knowing the future, yet nonetheless prays about it; how much more should we pray about the future that we do not know about.

Of course what is going to be is going to be. it does not prevent us from doing what we should do. We do not even know what is going to be until it happens. This is enough to keep us from fatalism.

The scriptures, logic , experience all testify to predestination and it is different from FATE.

Image123:
i believe we often miss the context in which we say God is all knowing. i know that might sound 'shocking heresy' to you so let me explain. Like when we say God can do anything(omnipotent), we should by growth in knowledge realise, in context, that He cannot sin, die or lie. Yet He can do all things, right?
In the same vein, we need to grow in knowledge of God to undertand His omniscience more, especially in line with the whole scripture, not some creed or partial bible quoting.

Why not enlighten us on the sense we can say He is not omniscient.

More on creeds later.

[Quote]
Yes believers can lose salvation. Calvinism does not hold much weight; ,  [/Quote]

@Bigbashiru

The above is contrary to everything you have ever  posted. What exactly is the problem? Do you have  a change of opinion , someone has a gun pointed at your head or your account has been compromised? Please clarify.

An ancient Confession of Faith runs thus:

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”
(http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_III.html)

Thanks a lot for your response Dexmond. I am sorry I couldn’t respond earlier than now.

I could of course quote as many scriptures to support Calvinism (the belief that salvation cannot be lost).Indeed a lot of such scriptures have been quoted already. I would like you to refute Calvinism with such concepts as I listed in the original post.

vescucci:
Lager, you started out as though in support countering the previous poster's point but later it looked like you were now giving your own anti-JW points. Which is it?

I wonder.

@Poster.

Please take Lager's 9th and 10th reason for mine.Also see these threads - https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-4050.0.html and  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-531625.0.html.


@Lager.


Thanks  .

vedaxcool:
Pity, one reason you should not be lazy, try to live a righteous life instead of waiting for jesus to foot your sinful wages, believe me he aint gonna do such a thing.

OK, I see were you are coming from. GRACE-it is what makes christianity distinct from other religions.

Image123:
Emmmmm, i still get reply for hia

I am glad you've not forgotten. I am still waiting.

OLAADEGBU:
A young woman teacher with obvious liberal tendencies explains to her class of small children that she is an atheist. She asks her class if they are atheists too. Not really knowing what atheism is but wanting to be like their teacher, their hands shoot into the air. There is, however, one exception. A beautiful girl named Lucy has not gone along with the crowd. The teacher asks why she has decided to be different.

"Because I'm not an atheist."

"So,"

asks the teacher,

"what are you?"

"A Christian"

The teacher is a little perturbed now, her face slightly red. She asks Lucy why she thinks she is a Christian.

"Well, I was brought up knowing and loving Jesus. My mum is a Christian and, my dad is a Christian, I also accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour and I know I'm a Christian."

The teacher is visibly angry now.

"That's no reason,"

she says loudly,

"What if your mum had been a not-so-smart person and, your dad had been a not-so-smart person. What would that make you then?"

After a pause, and a smile.

"Then,"

says Lucy,

"that would make me an atheist."

Grange:
I've observed over the years as a Jehovah's Witness that almost virtually every other christian denomination hates or dislikes Jehovah's Witnesses. Any idea on the reason for the consensus on the hatred of Witnesses?

Well, I will give it to you straight.I am not talking of hatred of them though.
1. They teach a works-based salvation.
2. They are Unitarians and do not give Christ His proper place.
3. Their New World Translation of the Holy Bible is suspect, leading many astray.
4. They have made a lot of prophecies which did not come to pass, only for them to modify the prophecies after the dates they set were passed. Moreover, they have in their own books cited failure of prophecies coming to pass as one of the means of identifying fake prophets.
5. They are unorthodox in their views in general.
6. Their stance on blood transfusion has led to the deaths of thousands.
7. Their teachings have separated a lot of families.
8. They term themselves ‘Jehovah Witnesses’ and do not see other Christians as such, neither would they have any fellowship with them.
I will give you the next two later, please.

[Quote]
@5Solas
Will a person after been saved, but went back into sin, lets say into armed robbery but died in the sin be saved? If your answer is no, it means one can lose his/her salvation; if you say yes, it means you may not have considered the scripture that says nothing unclean shall enter. In conclusion, one can lose his/her salvation, if he draws back from following the Lord.
[/Quote]
@Dexmond
Appealing to sentiments rather than The Word, would do us no good, Dexmond. I suggest you go through the posts before joining the 'fray'. More on your post later.
By the way, your post, 'How They Became Christians!', was awesome.

@All, especially Dexmond.
An explanation of the post by skolastica above is necessary, please. The post was actually inadvertently made by me. I had registered a neighbour (skolastica) before yesterday and yesterday she was signed in before I made my post. My sincere apologies for any distress to anyone.

toluxa1:
The only way we can have a complete truthful answer to this is if you understand the doctrine of Election. "Once Saved, always saved" is very true but not in the context of the "wofers" or whatever you call them. Unfortunately I cannot go into Election now, not in this thread.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now, that would be a good place to start.Why not on this thread?

toluxa1:
Ah, my dear brother, how are you doing. longest time. Thanks for the link.

I am fine.Ah! It is our good old dear link.

karo93:
Hebrews.10.26
For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us.
27.Instead all that is left is to wait in fear for the coming judgment and the fierce fire which will destroy those who oppose God.

Even those who were once saved will have to wait for the fierce fire and God's judgment if they purposely go on sinning.

Well, to continue with that passage to the end:
[Quote]

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39[b] But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.[/b]
Hebrews 10:32-39.
(KJV)[/quote]

Nice post, very instructive.

chukwudi44:
Among the teaching of the word of faith movement,the one I find most dangerous is this teaching which stipulates that once a christian is born again,he is already saved.This implies that subsequent sins commited by this christian is already "washed" by the blood of Jesus.

I would like to see how major WOFer exponents like joagbaje,newmi et.c defend this horrendous teaching

Nice post,topic.You should consider reading the thread,''Can A Believer Lose Salvation?'' (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-428061.0.html).More on your post later.

@Toluxa
Quite an age! So good to 'see' you again.