@Justcool


Why are you still deceiving yourself with trinity when you have been shown the truth? Go to the beginning of this thread and read my rebuttal to Olaadegbu.

Also, you may read that of your brother, Backslider here and if not satisfied, let me know, then I serve you verses from your bible showing that Jesus cannot be God nd trinity happened to be a later insertion.

@Backslider
Thanks for your submission. However, I maintain that God is One. It is that one God(God the father) that worked in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Although they are different persons, the same essence which is God animates all of them.
In the beginning before the work of creation and redemption God was one.  The Holy Spirit separated from Him to create, Jesus separated from Him to redeem mankind. It is like a man with two hands, God used His left hand(the Holy Spirit) to create and sustain creation with power; the same God used His right hand(Jesus) to redeem the earth. Although Jesus remained personal even after returning to the Father, He is still a part of God
This is the Trinity, simple and short.
With this I rest the issue.

@bab787 and olabowale
Thanks for your advice. But like you, I have made up my mind about the Trinity. I have recognised my God in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and I cannot deny my conviction. The Trinity is a living conviction in me.

@justcool,

In addition to the advice that Backsider has given you I will suggest that you check the weblink below, if you really want to know the truth.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t002.html

Justcool

Your perceptions on the Trinity of the Godhead is in accord with the TRUTH. The limitatiion of the human language and the fact that Trinity deals with the nature of God makes it impossible to convey a perception of the concept that comes closer to the TRUTH. Enough is already said on this issue that is beneficial to many even if there souls are not conscious of it at the moment. Those seekers who genuinely are in quest to have information of the TRUTH of Trinity will be permitted to have that revelation even without the participation of human helpers. The omnipotence of God will incline to those seekers and give them the personal experience that brings forth conviction. I wish you strength and say blessed!

justcool:

@Backslider
Thanks for your submission. However, I maintain that God is One. It is that one God(God the father) that worked in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Although they are different persons, the same essence which is God animates all of them.
In the beginning before the work of creation and redemption God was one.  The Holy Spirit separated from Him to create, Jesus separated from Him to redeem mankind. It is like a man with two hands, God used His left hand(the Holy Spirit) to create and sustain creation with power; the same God used His right hand(Jesus) to redeem the earth. Although Jesus remained personal even after returning to the Father, He is still a part of God
This is the Trinity, simple and short.
With this I rest the issue.

@bab787 and olabowale
Thanks for your advice. But like you, I have made up my mind about the Trinity. I have recognised my God in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and I cannot deny my conviction. The Trinity is a living conviction in me.

good one.^{being human,we can't fully convince people to blive in trinity bt i trust d holy spirit.for its part of his duty to mk us understand d tins about GOD that we ought to know.} i'm a full bliver of trinity

olabowale:

. . . . its no use fighting a losing battle of trinity with me.

As if you've won already. Anyway, whether you believe and accept it or not, it's got nothing to do with its validity. ,

[center]Blessed be God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. [/center]

@ Just Cool

I want you to hold fast on to what you have learnt here as this is the foundation of true christian living. Without 3 we cannot have one.

Satan sins was to move his throne over God. The Godhead is holy and righteous and satan had never seen the war side of God.

The bases of true salvation is Jesus as the lamb of God and God the father the Judge of all. The holy Ghost of God will execute. This is not some film you watch that God was play acting.

This three form one indivisible yet seperate beings.

The deceit is that "oh doest not matter" but it does if God father was Jesus then IT MEANT THAT JESUS LIED WHEN HE SAID IN MY FATHERS HOUSE THERE ARE MANY MANSION THERE AND I GO TO PREPARE,

It is evil not to believe or partially believe in the gospel of trinity.

@M_Nwankwo
Thank you. I also wish you strength and stay blessed.

babs787:

@Olaadegbu
Brother, have I said here that I do not believe/disbelieve anything here. I have served you verses and I will sincerely appreciate if you explain those verses to me. Serve the verses and let us read together.
"Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:, In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John.    (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1922)"
Revelation 1:11 in the KJV has a reference to Alpha and Omega as applied to Jesus Christ. This title is absent in the RSV and the ancient texts (cf. Companion Bible note to the text). It appears only in the Receptus and hence the KJV.
Hence the original text which reads more or less as the RSV:
Revelation 1:11 11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Per'gamum and to Thyati'ra and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to La-odice'a." (RSV)
This text becomes in the KJV:
Revelation 1:11 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (KJV)
This insertion in the text is done specifically to support Trinitarianism and negate the intent of the rest of Revelation in this matter.
Revelation 1:8 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (KJV)
Revelation 1:17 and 2:8 do not contain the words Alpha and Omega. They use protos and eschatos which imply another concept in distinction to the Alpha and Omega.

In anticipation that you have put off your I'slamic spectacles through which you see your worldview I will proceed to try and answer your question.

The book of Revelation was transmitted from God the Father to God the Son, to the angel, to John, to the churches, to us (believers in Christ) Rev.1:1,11

Rev.1:8,17-18; 22:13; 2:8 The Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.  This is used of Jesus Christ in Revelation except in 21:6

The identity of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ is revealed in Rev.1:17-18  He said:

"I am the first and the last:" "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore.  Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

In Revelation 22:13  Jesus Christ is again speaking here saying:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"

If you have problems with the authorised version you can check out the weblink below and find out why you have been deceived:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0031/0031_01.asp

@Olaadegbu:

The book of Revelation was transmitted from God the Father to Christ the Son, to the angel, to John, to the churches, to us (believers in Christ) Rev.1:1,11

Unfortunately, Olaadegbu, when it came to the Angel, within the chain, you did not mention the name of the angel! i guess the link kinda broke right there. Unfortunately still, Jesus did not mention a further transmission or revelation to come to you after his earthly existence. Did he? Please show me that very part of your Bible. What he said was not more than a future comforter to come after his departure. If there was supposed to be anything coming from him, he had the chance to state it, but he did not. You are therefore making conjectures.

Rev.1:8,17-18; 22:13; 2:8 The Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. This is used of Jesus Christ in Revelation except in 21:6

Olaadegbu, will it make any sense that you a Yoruba man be lectured by a Yoruba man about the history of the Yorubas in a Yoruba town, by your lecturer breaking into Celt; a language spoken by Danish people? Thats the example that you provide with Greek alphabets to explain things that happened in Middle east!

The identity of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ is revealed in Rev.1:17-18 He said:

And you fell for such explanation which Jesus did not make of himself while alive? Who best knew the personage of Jesus among those who thought they follow him? No one could. We can not take the description of Jesus by Jesus as a secondary description of himself in relationship to someone elses.

"I am the first and the last:" "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore. Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Very easy to bear falsifiction statements and hang them on a person who we know can not refute it.
In Revelation 22:13 Jesus Christ is again speaking here saying:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"

You will find the same in most of the reliable versions such as the followings:
Today's New International version
New International version-UK;
Wycliffe New Testament;
New International Reader's Version;
Holman Christian Standard Bible;
New life Version;
Darby Translation;
Young's Literal Translation;
American Standard Version;
New Century Version;
New King James Version;
Contemporary English Version;
English Standard Version;
New Living Translation;
Amplified Bible;
New American Standard Bible;
New International Version etc

Some of the most reliable, you said. It gives the impression that some are less reliable and even some should have not been printed altogether. Its very easy to make uncorroborated statement, against a soul that is not available to challenge it. This is the case with you and your many versions of the Bible. And when you are challenged that you claim Jesus is God, most of you will say that he is son. Yet there above you call him the first (God, uncreated who creates everything else) and the last (God who will exist and continues to even after death itself dies). Where do you really stand, if you can not see that your position is completely wrong.

@babs787,& olabowale,

It is interesting to see that your I'slamic spectacles distorts your vision of reality.  I realised that you tend to believe the gnostic gospels as true and doubt the synoptic gospels as counterfeit when it is actually the other way round.  Your "holy book" affirms some of the lies in the gnostic gospels that said that someone else died in place of Jesus Christ
Some spectacles can be dangerously deceptive to those who insist on seeing through them.

Looking through such spectacles you will see that you claim to believe all the prophets of the bible, even Jesus Christ.  But do you know that Jesus Christ made a powerful claim about Himself and said "I am The Way The Truth And The Life, No one cometh unto the Father but by Me" John 14:6

If you truly believe Him as a Prophet I expect you to take those words seriously and do not tell me that those are not His words or that they have been distorted, do you really believe that God Almighty cannot keep His Words from being contaminated?

@Olabowale,

olabowale:

@Olaadegbu:
Unfortunately, Olaadegbu, when it came to the Angel, within the chain, you did not mention the name of the angel! i guess the link kind of broke right there. Unfortunately still, Jesus did not mention a further transmission or revelation to come to you after his earthly existence. Did he? Please show me that very part of your Bible. What he said was not more than a future comforter to come after his departure. If there was supposed to be anything coming from him, he had the chance to state it, but he did not. You are therefore making conjectures.

But haven't your own conjectures been settled in another thread? I can't remember where I once read it when the debate was sizzling, but I remember than pilgrim.1 soundly settled your conjectures about who the Comforter might be - the Holy Spirit. Why is it so attractive for you to keep repeating a question you have failed to address?

Meanwhile, asking for the name of the angel is like asking you to name every single angel mentioned in the Qur''an and Hadiths - have you been able to attempt that at all? And the names of the 124,000 prophets? Why do you try to point at others on issues you cannot resolve when presented to you?

Just curious at this repetitive attraction of yours.

olabowale:

Olaadegbu, will it make any sense that you a Yoruba man be lectured by a Yoruba man about the history of the Yorubas in a Yoruba town, by your lecturer breaking into Celt; a language spoken by Danish people? Thats the example that you provide with Greek alphabets to explain things that happened in Middle east!

Again, this logic is flawed. I'm not Yoruba and hardly understand the language (wish I did, still learning though). But I wonder how an Arabic prophet would have tried to tell us anything about matters which were basically Hebraic, Greek and Aramaic? If the language proves a feat to you, there is no confidence in the case of the Arabic issue.

olabowale:

And you fell for such explanation which Jesus did not make of himself while alive?

I am still waiting to see where you find His statement in everything that He taught.

olabowale:

Who best knew the personage of Jesus among those who thought they follow him? No one could. We can not take the description of Jesus by Jesus as a secondary description of himself in relationship to someone elses.

In that case, you have simply told us not to trust the relationship that Muh.hammad claimed to have offered about his knowledge of Jesus. Muh.hammad was not even a secondhand relative in the Gospel events - he was so far removed from the place, time, culture, events and revelations of Jesus in a personal way that we could apply your own rule and objections have and outrightly reject any account Muh.hammad might have given - even though he claimed they were from "God".

You disagree? Then your objections here are logically flawed.

olabowale:

Very easy to bear falsifiction statements and hang them on a person who we know can not refute it.

That comes across to me as describing what we find in the case of the Qur''an and Hadiths. So many things there have been hung on Jesus - how would you know which was which?

olabowale:

It gives the impression that some are less reliable and even some should have not been printed altogether. Its very easy to make uncorroborated statement, against a soul that is not available to challenge it.

Which strengthens what was stated above.

olabowale:

This is the case with you and your many versions of the Bible.

Even more so for the many versions and translations of the Qur''an.

olabowale:

And when you are challenged that you claim Jesus is God, most of you will say that he is son. Yet there above you call him the first (God, uncreated who creates everything else) and the last (God who will exist and continues to even after death itself dies). Where do you really stand, if you can not see that your position is completely wrong.

I wonder where you would stand if on the one hand you claim to beleiev in ALL the prophets and yet have no clue what they have stated and then begin to make excuses for SOME!

@Olaadegbu:Its unfortunate that you will believe that jesus was the speaker in the verse you quoted. You must therefore consder that he had instructed his own disciples not to preach to anyone outside the Children of israel. While he himself made it clear that hw was not sent except only to the house of israel.

The last i check, the Yorubas or others tribes of the world are not from the house of Israel. House of Israel simply means the progenies of Jacob who was named Israel! If you can not understand this above, then there is absolutely a big problem with you. And I did not have to read the Bible to know the statement of Jesus here above. It is im the Q.u.r'an in essence.

If your Bible contain verses that absolutely disagree with each other, then both of them can not be absolutely correct at the same time. At best you have 100% false and 100% right verses.

@Olabowale,

It is rather unfortunate that you strain so much to display your selective reading, which is not a good trait for someone who is open to honest thinking.

When I first joined the Forum, I was not confident in discussing Islam with anyone because I knew so very little about it back then. After reading the rigorous debates from so many contributors who are very knowledgeable on the subject, I decided to read the Qur'an for myself. Has it occured to you that rather than go about denying this and that, my approach is to impress your own truth-claims upon you?

That is a serious offer. But it is surprising that rather than calmly investigate the claims and acknowledge their veracity, you assume a closed mindset and keep harping on things about which you have not demonstrated serious scholarship or convincing discourses.

May I extend an invitation to you persoanlly to drop your prejudices and read the Bible with an open heart. If I could read a copy of the Quran for myself, why is it such a feeling of discomfort, uncertainty and fear to pick the Bible up and read it for yourself?

@Olaadegbu

It is interesting to see that your I'slamic spectacles distorts your vision of reality.  I realised that you tend to believe the gnostic gospels as true and doubt the synoptic gospels as counterfeit when it is actually the other way round.  Your "holy book" affirms some of the lies in the gnostic gospels that said that someone else died in place of Jesus Christ
Some spectacles can be dangerously deceptive to those who insist on seeing through them.

Looking through such spectacles you will see that you claim to believe all the prophets of the bible, even Jesus Christ.  But do you know that Jesus Christ made a powerful claim about Himself and said "I am The Way The Truth And The Life, No one cometh unto the Father but by Me" John 14:6

Brother, you need to shun pride, open your heart to the truth having been served same all these while. Go to the beginning o this thread and see for yourself.

Jesus could have made that statement but if you would listen for a while, he made that statement to the Jew then and the reason is that he was sent to them and all prophets happened to be the way leading their followers to God, the truth: telling the truth and people see them as true ambassador and light giving direction to those that wanted to know God because people see and get to God through them. (though other prophets might have not said but thats just the truth). Just because Jesus stated it doesnt mean that all other prophets have not been same.

If you truly believe Him as a Prophet I expect you to take those words seriously and do not tell me that those are not His words or that they have been distorted, do you really believe that God Almighty cannot keep His Words from being contaminated?

 

Scroll up and read.

In anticipation that you have put off your I'slamic spectacles through which you see your worldview I will proceed to try and answer your question.

The book of Revelation was transmitted from God the Father to Christ the Son, to the angel, to John, to the churches, to us (believers in Christ) Rev.1:1,11

Rev.1:8,17-18; 22:13; 2:8 The Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.  This is used of Jesus Christ in Revelation except in 21:6

The identity of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ is revealed in Rev.1:17-18  He said:

"I am the first and the last:" "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore.  Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

In Revelation 22:13  Jesus Christ is again speaking here saying:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"

You will find the same in most of the reliable versions  such as the followings:
Today's New International version
New International version-UK;
Wycliffe New Testament;
New International Reader's Version;
Holman Christian Standard Bible;
New life Version;
Darby Translation;
Young's Literal Translation;
American Standard Version;
New Century Version;
New King James Version;
Contemporary English Version;
English Standard Version;
New Living Translation;
Amplified Bible;
New American Standard Bible;
New International Version etc

I never wanted to reply you because I found you dodging my response to the bbo of revelation and posted same verse which have I have provided rebuttal to and if you care to read more, kindly go to this link.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-68474.32.html

@Syrup

But haven't your own conjectures been settled in another thread? I can't remember where I once read it when the debate was sizzling, but I remember than pilgrim.1 soundly settled your conjectures about who the Comforter might be - the Holy Spirit. Why is it so attractive for you to keep repeating a question you have failed to address?

Sister, I asked plgrim a very straight forward and no response till this very moment and you do me proud me responding to my question. Now, you and Pilgrim claimed that the comforter was the holy spirit and I asked and I am still asking now, if the holy spirit happened to be the comforter, has it not been in existence or not because the comforter would be a new being and Holy spirit has been in existence since creation.

Meanwhile, asking for the name of the angel is like asking you to name every single angel mentioned in the Qur''an and Hadiths - have you been able to attempt that at all? And the names of the 124,000 prophets? Why do you try to point at others on issues you cannot resolve when presented to you?

Mu slims may not be able to name all the prophets but there is a verse which if you rwd would explain that to you. God made it known to us that some prophets were mentioned whie some were not mentioned.

Just curious at this repetitive attraction of yours.

Not a repetition but no response so far to my question on has the holy spirit been in existence or not?

May I extend an invitation to you persoanlly to drop your prejudices and read the Bible with an open heart. If I could read a copy of the The Great Book for myself, why is it such a feeling of discomfort, uncertainty and fear to pick the Bible up and read it for yourself?

Sister, to be frank and honest with you. I was like you before seeing the light. I have read and still reading the bible and I have some versions at home. There is nothing hidden there and I wish you could read and compare the gospels for a start and realise the truth.

Stay blessed

@babs787,

How are you? I enjoyed the last discussion we had, because it went well just as I had not intended it as a "debate".

However, I'd like to comment on something you stated which (IMO) is clearly an assumption:

babs787:

Jesus could have made that statement but if you would listen for a while, he made that statement to the Jew then and the reason is that he was sent to them and all prophets happened to be the way leading their followers to God, the truth: telling the truth and people see them as true ambassador and light giving direction to those that wanted to know God because people see and get to God through them. (though other prophets might have not said but thats just the truth). Just because Jesus stated it doesnt mean that all other prophets have not been same.

The area of particular interest to me is the assumption highlighted, that "Just because Jesus stated it doesnt mean that all other prophets have not been same".

That is quite wrong, for the statements, life and work of Jesus are unique in every account. Even when Jesus spoke in John 14:6, it is pretty obvious that He qualified His statement so definitively. He did not say that was "a life", but rather that He was "THE Life". So also His other statements: He is THE Light ("I am the light of the world", John 8:12).

The last verse just quoted could not be claimed by any prophet, because it was unique statement:

(a) He is THE LIGHT
(b) He is The Light of THE WORLD

Both in quality and scope, He was unique - that is why we don't find any other prophet making that claime. What they have not claimed for themselves as far as records and scriptures are concerned, you cannot make that claim for them!

Secondly, you cannot attribute the unique status of Jesus' claim to someone else. When I read the Quran, I was surprised to find that Jesus is clearly mentioned there as THE Messiah - He is the only One the Quran recognizes as THE Messiah! Not even Muh.hammad could make that claim for himself - and that is a very definite point to note as to why you cannot make such suppositions for "all the prophets" out of hand.

You started out by appealing that we shun pride - I hope you can do the same and exercise the humility to shun the pride of arrogating something to someone where there is no such claim made for him/them.

Regards.

@babs787,

babs787:

@Syrup

Sister, I asked plgrim a very straight forward and no response till this very moment and you do me proud me responding to my question. Now, you and Pilgrim claimed that the comforter was the holy spirit and I asked and I am still asking now, if the holy spirit happened to be the comforter, has it not been in existence or not because the comforter would be a new being and Holy spirit has been in existence since creation.

I have followed that discussion quite well, and rather than go round in circles and boger into an argument, it would be helpful to simply answer one question: WHO is the Comforter?

It is quite disappointing that you could not produce simple clear evidence for your assumptions and instead went into whether the Comforter has been in existence or not - which is a very offmark query. It is not the "existence" we are after, but rather WHO is the Comforter. That question was answered, and He is the Holy Spirit (John 14:26).

Rather than pretend that this is another argument about His "existence", what have you said about WHO He is? Humility will be very helpful here - it is pride that is at the root of pretending not to have seen a clear statement and then begin to argue endlessly away from a topic. Dear sir, it is of no benefit to you to behave that way.

babs787:

Mu slims may not be able to name all the prophets but there is a verse which if you rwd would explain that to you. God made it known to us that some prophets were mentioned whie some were not mentioned.

I don't think this is a problem at all - those mentioned and/or not mentioned. The point rather is more about what exactly they have taught.

babs787:

Not a repetition but no response so far to my question on has the holy spirit been in existence or not?

See above. This is repetitive.

babs787:

Sister, to be frank and honest with you. I was like you before seeing the light. I have read and still reading the bible and I have some versions at home. There is nothing hidden there and I wish you could read and compare the gospels for a start and realise the truth.

I have experienced the truth in reading the Gospel - I still do. It is sad that every single time I seek to discuss with Mus.lims, the substance of the answers they give is denials. This is not helpful to them at all - especially when you deny something and yet you do not have the alternative to present.

babs787:

Stay blessed

You too.

@Syrup


The area of particular interest to me is the assumption highlighted, that "Just because Jesus stated it doesnt mean that all other prophets have not been same".

That is quite wrong, for the statements, life and work of Jesus are unique in every account.

Please how are his work unique?

Even when Jesus spoke in John 14:6, it is pretty obvious that He qualified His statement so definitively. He did not say that was "a life", but rather that He was "THE Life". So also His other statements: He is THE Light ("I am the light of the world", John 8:12).

Jesus said that 'I am the way, truth and life, no man cometh to the father except by me'. The verse was for the children of Israel because he was sent to them and if you read the book of John very well, he made the statement that he is the light as long as he is in the earth meaning that another person takes over when he leaves. He happened to be light for ONLY  the children of Israel and he had his limited to them. Their coming and going is like a relay where one athletes exchanges baton with another and it continues like that.

The last verse just quoted could not be claimed by any prophet, because it was unique statement:

Ok let us see.

(a) He is THE LIGHT
(b) He is The Light of THE WORLD

You are getting it all wrong. Jesus coult never have been for the whole mankind because he wasnt send to them. He had his work limited to the children of Israel. Every prophets were sent to their comunity which Jesus too did and trying to smuggle Jesus as being the comforter of the whole world would be a sheer dishonesty. Sister, Read your bible very well which I have done and still doing and you would realise that Jesus had hiswork limited when on earth.

Both in quality and scope, He was unique - that is why we don't find any other prophet making that claime. What they have not claimed for themselves as far as records and scriptures are concerned, you cannot make that claim for them!

So sister, what great thing Jesus did that no prophets ever did and one or two even did more that he ever did!

Secondly, you cannot attribute the unique status of Jesus' claim to someone else. When I read the The Great Book, I was surprised to find that Jesus is clearly mentioned there as THE Messiah - He is the only One the The Great Book recognizes as THE Messiah! Not even Muh.hammad could make that claim for himself - and that is a very definite point to note as to why you cannot make such suppositions for "all the prophets" out of hand.

Sister, you quote above amuse me. So gave him special attribute just because he was called Messiah and if you care we may shed more light on Messiah and see that non living things were even called messiah. The meaning of Messiah is 'anointed'. So I know one or two things with regards to Messiah. Because he sent with special work doesnt mean that he happened to very unique because his similtude was like that Adam  created from Dust. I wonder why you believe in the verse where he was called Messiah but ignored the other part of the chapter that spkke on his biirth, his mission etc!!

have followed that discussion quite well, and rather than go round in circles and boger into an argument, it would be helpful to simply answer one question: WHO is the Comforter?

It is quite disappointing that you could not produce simple clear evidence for your assumptions and instead went into whether the Comforter has been in existence or not - which is a very offmark query. It is not the "existence" we are after, but rather WHO is the Comforter. That question was answered, and He is the Holy Spirit (John 14:26).

Rather than pretend that this is another argument about His "existence", what have you said about WHO He is? Humility will be very helpful here - it is pride that is at the root of pretending not to have seen a clear statement and then begin to argue endlessly away from a topic. Dear sir, it is of no benefit to you to behave that way.

Now let us get it straight. Has the Holy Spirit been in existence or not?

babs787:

@Syrup


The area of particular interest to me is the assumption highlighted, that "Just because Jesus stated it doesnt mean that all other prophets have not been same".


Please how are his work unique?

Jesus said that 'I am the way, truth and life, no man cometh to the father except by me'. The verse was for the children of Israel because he was sent to them and if you read the book of John very well, he made the statement that he is the light as long as he is in the earth meaning that another person takes over when he leaves. He happened to be light for ONLY the children of Israel and he had his limited to them. Their coming and going is like a relay where one athletes exchanges baton with another and it continues like that.


Ok let us see.



You are getting it all wrong. Jesus coult never have been for the whole mankind because he wasnt send to them. He had his work limited to the children of Israel. Every prophets were sent to their comunity which Jesus too did and trying to smuggle Jesus as being the comforter of the whole world would be a sheer dishonesty. Sister, Read your bible very well which I have done and still doing and you would realise that Jesus had hiswork limited when on earth.


So sister, what great thing Jesus did that no prophets ever did and one or two even did more that he ever did!



Sister, you quote above amuse me. So gave him special attribute just because he was called Messiah and if you care we may shed more light on Messiah and see that non living things were even called messiah. The meaning of Messiah is 'anointed'. So I know one or two things with regards to Messiah. Because he sent with special work doesnt mean that he happened to very unique because his similtude was like that Adam created from Dust. I wonder why you believe in the verse where he was called Messiah but ignored the other part of the chapter that spkke on his biirth, his mission etc!!



Now let us get it straight. Has the Holy Spirit been in existence or not?

My Lord!
How many times will you ask the same exact questions.
Is I'slam synonymous with mumurity?

@Syrup: I can summarize your misgivings by simply stating that you have not paid attention to the fact that Mu.h.amma.d was a prophet, like Noah, Ibrahiim, Moses and Jesus (AS), just naming a very few known to both of us. If you do understand that then you will see that his lord God Almighty was the One who revealed everything to him. Thats the difference with John or Mark or Luke or Matthew (all first name authors) said that Jesus said. Please learn it and understand it, since Jesus did not say that there will not be another Prophet (Comforter) after him.

But haven't your own conjectures been settled in another thread? I can't remember where I once read it when the debate was sizzling, but I remember than pilgrim.1 soundly settled your conjectures about who the Comforter might be -the Holy Spirit. Why is it so attractive for you to keep repeating a question you have failed to address?

So that yopu know, if Pilgrim1 settled it as you boldly stated, I will not be naive enough to refuse to acknowledge a briliant response. My wanting to know the name of his holy spirit/ghost god will tell you that no one provided one to me. I need a proper name. You provided father as God, even though it is not Proper name, i simply accept because i believe in One God. You used Jesus as a son god, I disagree about a son of God. But from your christian mindset, you provided an identity anyway. Now do the same for a ghostly part of your 3 headed god!

Since you challenged me for my own God, let me provide you with a direct insight of what God is. There is one Sigle God. He has a propher name. I call Him Al  lah. He has Angels and the ArchAngel is Angel Jibril. He is also described as holy spirit, since all Angel are in spiritual relm; Ruuh Qudus! Gabreil is also called by othe name s now. You can googlethis with a search title; Names of Angel gabreil from Is.l.amic point of view. Use whatever process, but in the long run, you will see that I am correct, God willing.

Jesus is a prophet, a human being, a son of Mary the virgin girl, a Massiah to the Children of Israel, a warner of his time with revelations and he proclaimed one God and the coming of the prophet called Ahmad, another name for Muh.amm.ad.

Meanwhile, asking for the name of the angel is like asking you to name every single angel mentioned in the Qur''an and Hadiths - have you been able to attempt that at all? And the names of the 124,000 prophets? Why do you try to point at others on issues you cannot resolve when presented to you?

If all of the 124,000 names of past prophets and messengers were important to my being a m.us.lim, all would have been provided to me. the most essential names are available in the Qu.r'an. This is enough for me. Further none of them declared any different message. They all have the central message that God is One and Only he should be worshipped.

Just curious at this repetitive attraction of yours.

My sis, don't be too curious because it will not benefit you until you know that god is a single Lord. He is not a three entity and there is no partnership with Him.

[Quote]
Again, this logic is flawed. I'm not Yoruba and hardly understand the language (wish I did, still learning though). But I wonder how an Arabic prophet would have tried to tell us anything about matters which were basically Hebraic, Greek and Aramaic? If the language proves a feat to you, there is no confidence in the case of the Arabic issue.
[/quote]

Except that Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic are all sematic languages. They are very similar. Let me show you. Cleaningness as in shower is called Tahara, in both Arabic and hebrew. Greek is not a family of any of these languages. More importantly, it has been reported that many people of foreign tongues came to visit the prophet (as), in Madina, there was not a report of translator between them when they speak their languages to him. Al.l.ah his Lord will make his earling take it and let his lips be able to speak these starnge tongues. A case in point is when the Christian asked him in Madina to tell them the nature of his God. Immediately, Chapter 112 of the Qu.r.'an was revealed to set God Almighty apart from His Creations. Now i ask you ead the Chapter 112 of the Qu.r'an.

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I am still waiting to see where you find His statement in everything that He taught.
[/quote]

If there is no direct statement to him that are irrefutable, to anything that you said he taught, then how can you even believe it? Where is the Gospel that he preached all over the places? To preach whatever he preached, he must have been given a manuscript for that preaching! Not a manuscript that was written after he has taught and even was raised up.

[Quote]
In that case, you have simply told us not to trust the relationship that Muh.hammad claimed to have offered about his knowledge of Jesus. Muh.hammad was not even a secondhand relative in the Gospel events - he was so far removed from the place, time, culture, events and revelations of Jesus in a personal way that we could apply your own rule and objections have and outrightly reject any account Muh.hammad might have given - even though he claimed they were from "God".
[/quote]

If you get this from my statement, you have just interpreted me. And your interpretation is completely false, as usual. Again, you should not forget that the prophet of Arabia is a prophet/messenger of God. His teacher was God Himself. His tutorial ntity was Angel Gabreil. I guess he was in Makka, then a Night in Jerusalem and them the end of his life in Madina. All of these prophetic life in Middle east. Where is Galilee, Nazareth and Jerusalem again? Definitely not Europe, but Middle east. And he also shared ascenstral bloodline with them all the way to Ibrahim and beyond. And as we know the arabs and the jews even today call each other cousins.

That comes across to me as describing what we find in the case of the Qur''an and Hadiths. So many things there have been hung on Jesus - how would you know which was which?

REad your Bible and ask yourself, which is correct when you have two opposing verses on a single subject. Then come to the Q. ur.r'an for the truth.

[Quote]
Which strengthens what was stated above.
[/quote]

Only if we have heard it directly from Jesus and other prophets before him. Please stop justifying something you have no 100% assurance on. Just because a large number of people accept something it does not mean it is right. All of them are wrong if the premise they agreed upon is wrong.

[Quote]
Even more so for the many versions and translations of the Qur''an.
[/quote]

Versions? That does not happen in Qur'a.n. Styly of writing yes. And translation is what the translator thinks the verse meant. I can read Q.ur'an in hafs, a style of recitation and writing and then read it in Walsh, a different style. Both in the same Salah. You can not do that with the Bible; reading RSV in Greek and Douwy in Arabic in a Russian Church. Can you?

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I wonder where you would stand if on the one hand you claim to beleiev in ALL the prophets and yet have no clue what they have stated and then begin to make excuses for SOME!  
[/quote]

You are just grabbling for straws. You continue to use Some and all to prove a point with me. For the last time, I believe every prophet of God and what they truly said. However I do not take for a fact what another person says which is ascribed to any prophet. So finally, you should rest your heart that what Paul and company said about Jesus can not be accepted by me as coming from one of my masters: Jesus. All prophets are my masters. And God is Master of all.

@Sheniqua: I often wondered if it is true that that is Osisi. But your abrasive nature of mummity sifted through. And you did not reply to my email. This is how the christians make friends? lol.

@babs787,

Again, your eagerness to argue is admirable - the only thing is that they are still hinged on pride and not humility. Like I said to Olabowale, it's not my disposition to argue endlessly where clear statements are made. To keep arguing against clear statements that Jesus Christ stated is the very ingredient that engenders DENIALS. Is it not amazing how quick a mus.lim is willing to keep DENYING things and yet he does not find this in my post? My approach is different - it is rather to bring the clear statements to bear upon you in very simple terms. Denying them doesn't hurt anyone else than the one who makes the denials - because one is left wondering what such a person really believes at the end of the day.

sheniqua:

My Lord!
How many times will you ask the same exact questions.
Is I'slam synonymous with mumurity?

This is why I have stated simply: repetition ad hominem does not present the discussant as having the ability to be humble enough to see reason.

Love you syrup.
Longtime.
You may know me as babyosisi

sheniqua:

Love you syrup.
Longtime.
You may know me as babyosisi

Oh my goodness! I have no idea!! Please forgive me. Wetin happen now? _{I'm being Nigerian gradually} I was wondering that you just disappeared after we last spoke about. . . you know what. Well, it happened! And the truth came out that Nigerians are very interesting people!

B-Osisi, my love to you and all yours, Please keep in touch!

@Olabowale,

Thank you for your response. In similar manner, I tried to summarize your important points - there is nothing new that you have added to our last gist. I'm being honest with you, and what I read in yours is saying the same thing stretched out in another way!

Rather than go into long debates and repeat the same illogical sequence again and again, could I hope to see something more engaging, something with fresh notes and points?

Warm regards.

babs787:

@Olaadegbu
Brother, you need to shun pride, open your heart to the truth having been served same all these while. Go to the beginning o this thread and see for yourself.
Jesus could have made that statement but if you would listen for a while, he made that statement to the Jew then and the reason is that he was sent to them and all prophets happened to be the way leading their followers to God, the truth: telling the truth and people see them as true ambassador and light giving direction to those that wanted to know God because people see and get to God through them. (though other prophets might have not said but thats just the truth). Just because Jesus stated it doesnt mean that all other prophets have not been same.

syrup has painstakingly and effectively answered your questions however, I will like to give a little historical biblical background to show a hollistic view of the genesis of the conflict that is recorded in the book of Genesis.

The book of Genesis covers from the beginning of time to the time of Joseph.  It covers long periods, centuries, many people and nations.  The bible is about what God was to do with a people that did not want to know and serve Him.

God chose to solve His problem through the Jewish people.  This is what some theologians called the "scandal of particularity".  There is a phrase that says "How odd of God to choose the Jews" and " but not so odd to choose the God that chose the Jews".

God sent His Son to be a Jew so as to save the whole world.  The Old Testament is about a nation (Israel); The New Testament is about a Man (Jesus); This Man is the central theme of the whole Bible; He was to redeem mankind from the curse of the law; We are to know Him by revelation knowledge.

In Matthew 16:13-19 Jesus asked the question "Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?" and to His disciples He said "whom say ye that I am?"
Simon Peter by revelation knowledge and conviction declared that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God!  The church of Christ was built on this revelation knowledge and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. AMEN.

Without faith it is impossible to please God Heb.11:6  There are two lines running through the human race. The line of faith and the line of the arm of flesh.  Abel or Seth vs Cain, Abraham vs Lot, Isaac vs Ishmael, Jacob vs Esau.  The sin of the first man caused the second man to kill the third man.  Bad people always hate and envy good people, the ungodly hates the godly and as Jesus rightly said that the world hated Him and if we are to follow Him the world would hate us.

The line of Cain invented and progressed in music, weapons of mass destruction, urbanisation, human technology (even though good on their own but has been tainted by Cain).  Almost all inventions have been used to kill before or they use it for good. The line of Seth is the line of faith where people began to call on the name of the Lord.  By revelation knowledge we receive the manifestation of the wisdom and Power of God.  You choose which line you want to belong to.

The God of the entire universe decided to make a friend with a man called Abraham, not because he had a natural or moral claim but because it was a free gift which was because he dared to believed God and left his country to go to a land that God has promised.  God would rather have a believing man than a good man.  Jesus made us know that faith is the beginning of a good life.  Isaac was a product of faith, he could have overpowered his dad at the alter of sacrifice but believed God that He will provide a ram for sacrifice.  Jacob also got the birthright by faith or due to the unbelief of Esau.

That is why God freely negotiated His relationship with them and He is called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob(Israel).  God used Israel to either bless or curse all nations on the basis of the covenant He had with Abraham.  They all believed that God had given them the land that God had promised even though they had not physically possessed it.  The evidence is the country called Israel today and the nations that blessed it are also blessed because those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord He has given them the keys to the kingdom of heaven to bind and to loose.  Matt.16:19

Jesus Christ made this bold claim when He said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was I am" Claiming to be God

@Olaadegbu: I easily could have just allowed you the ranting, but it will further embolden you.

syrup has painstakingly and effectively answered your questions however, I will like to give a little historical biblical background to show a hollistic view of the genesis of the conflict that is in the book of Genesis.

I am shocked you believed that Syrup answered anybody's questions.

The book of Genesis covers from the beginning of time to the time of Joseph. It covers long periods, centuries, many people and nations. The bible is about God's answer to God's problem which was the fact that what He was to do with a people that did not want to know and serve Him.

Maybe it is the Christian God that had problems. Is.lamic God did not, do not and shall not have any problems.

God chose to solve His problem through the Jewish people. This is what some theologians called the "scandal of particularity". There is a phrase that says 'How odd of God to choose the Jews but not so odd to choose the God that chose the Jews'.

And considering the millions of people in other nations of the world who were dying, while the Jews were keeping God's commandments to themselves, do you not see faults in your statements here? Can the peopel who the Jews did not tell about God be held blame worthy? Come to think of it, were not the same Jews who refused to even worship God which was the reason their journey of 40 days took 40 years? What happened to those who perished while serving/woshipping the Golden calf? They will go to Children of Israel good heaven, since you have this believe that the commandment cover them wholesale?

God sent His Son to be a Jew so as to save the whole world. The Old Testament is about a nation (Israel); The New Testament is about a Man (Jesus); This Man is the central theme of the whole Bible; He was to redeem mankind from the curse of the law; We are to know Him by revelation knowledge.

Adam, Noah, Ibrahiim, and Isaac were citizens of Israel? Who was Israel and children considering jacob was renamed Israel? Was England so named before it was inhabited by humans? Was Nigeria so name prior the Nigerian living in it and truly before the lady who named her after River Niger came up with that name? Was America named USA, prior to the Europeans coming to her shores? I just want to make you reflect, while I ignore most of your bizzarre statement.

In Matthew 16:13-19 Jesus asked the question "Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?" and to His disciples He said "whom say ye that I am?"

When Jesus aked the question above in Matthew, just remember you did not tell us who he was asking. But you should remember that he Jesus referred to himself as "Son of Man." And see his question to his disciples?

Simon Peter by revelation knowledge and conviction declared that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God! The church of Christ was built on this revelation knowledge and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I think Syrup should now see that Simon Peter's statement can not be taking as Jesus'. This is my statement with this lady Syrup and she continue to play fast and loose with words.

Without faith it is impossible to please God Heb.11:6 There are two lines running through the human race. Abel or Seth vs Cain, Abraham vs Lot, Isaac vs Ishmael, Jacob vs Esau. The sin of the first man caused the second man to kill the third man. Bad people always hate and envy good people, the ungodly hates the godly and as Jesus rightly said that the world hated Him and if we are to follow Him the world would hate us

Abraham vs Lot? Isaa vs Ishmael? What are you talking about Olaadegbu? This one pass me ol boy!

The line of Cain invented and progressed in music, weapons of mass destruction, urbanisation, human technology (even though good on their own but has been tainted by Cain). Almost all invention has been used to kill before or after they use it for good.

I know alot of Christians who are named Cain. If one is to follow your thought above, one will believe that Lot was a bad man because he was against Abraham. I just find your writing unbelievable.

The line of Seth is the line of faith where people began to call on the name of the Lord. You choose which line you want to belong to.

Your thought process is interesting.

The God of the entire universe decided to make a friend of a man called Abraham, not because he had a natural or moral claim but because it was a free gift which was because he dared to believed God and left his country to go to a land that God has promised. God would rather have a believing man than a good man. Jesus made us know that faith is the beginning of a good life. Isaac was a product of faith, he could have overpowered his dad at the alter of sacrifice but believed God that He will provide a ram for sacrifice. Jacob also got the birthright by faith or due to the unbelief of Esau.

If you had said that the land God would promise Abraham, it will be understood. But to say the land God promised gives us the impression that there were Children of Israel already living there before Abraham got to it. Can you argue that point with any tangible conviction? You will be shooting yourself in the foot because you said that the land was promised the children of Israel. Who was Israel, now? Who were his children? And who was the granpappy of Jacob/Israel?

That is why God freely negotiated His relationship with them and He is called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob(Israel). God used Israel to either bless or curse all nations on the basis of the covenant He had with Abraham. They all believed that God had given them the land that God had promised even though they had not physically possessed it. The evidence is the country called Israel today and the nations that blessed it are also blessed because those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord He has given them the keys to the kingdom of heaven to bind and to loose. Matt.16:19

I guess your statement of curse does not have effect on Makka and Madina or the whole Arabian penisula! I know many countries which has almost zero opinion of the jewish state of israel. And those countries are doing just fine thank you. I also know a lot of orthodox Jewish groups who do not think that Israel as a state right now should exist. But these Jews are also doing wfine, thank you again.

Jesus Christ made this bold claim when He said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was I am" Claiming to be God

Olaadegbu, before Abraham was present on earth, my soul was. Therefore before Abraham was I am, too. This is not a great proof of anything. However, no soul was, and that included the soul of Jesus before Adam, for all the souls of man came out from his body. This will be the reason Jesus never went that far, but stopped at Abraham.

Olaadegbu, before Abraham was present on earth, my soul was. Therefore before Abraham was I am, too

Really 

However, no soul was, and that included the soul of Jesus before Adam, for all the souls of man came out from his body. This will be the reason Jesus never went that far, but stopped at Abraham.

sure, i'm learning, but is this the 'gospel' according to Olabowale??

Pure Fallacy!

Maybe, you'd do better to quote references to your claims. Babaa  Olabowale.

How was your day?

@ Olowo Tee: Lol. My day yesterday was good. Alhamdulillah. I am waiting for the sun to break the cloudy sky. Its raining here. This is good. A goodwill from God the Almighty A.l.lah. You know the rain washes the death, cools the surface and the birds can drink water from it, the trees are watered by the Maker of the trees, yhe soil is softened and finally the "bums' are at least kept off the streets. If one lives among them, their sights which are sore to the eyes all the time will not be there. At least temporarily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Olaadegbu, before Abraham was present on earth, my soul was . Therefore before Abraham was I am, too


Really


Quote
However, no soul was, and that included the soul of Jesus before Adam, for all the souls of man came out from his body. This will be the reason Jesus never went that far, but stopped at Abraham.


sure, i'm learning, but is this the 'gospel' according to Olabowale??

Pure Fallacy!

Maybe, you'd do better to quote references to your claims. Babaa Olabowale.

How was your day?

Maybe God will open your heart for guidance by this dialogue. If the Bible did not tell you where the souls of the children of Adam were created/removed from, then you need to ask your Minister, why the deficiency in your Book. When no clear answer is provided you, then know it is time that you drop the fronting and come over to Al Is.l.am.

The last thing created by God before Adam is rainfall. I am telling you this to show the significance of rainfall. It was not complete that water was on the surface of the earth aalone. But God completed the way of ease of maintaining purity of water, reawaking of the soil, etc through rainfall, a form of irrigation.

God created Adam on friday, between the Asri salah (You make that salah in Nigeria around 4.00pm) and the Magrib salah (The salah that is made immediately the sun sets). When the Soul/spirit entered the body of Adam, it rose up from his toes/feet all the way up. When it got to the level of his nose he sneezed and was immediately inspired to say Alhamdulillah (Thank God), the same exact statement that mus.li.ms make when they sneeze. The Angel responded to him in the same manner that mu.sl.ims respond to a one who sneezes and thank God. You must remember that I stated earlier that the soul was rising up, from the toes/feet as if it was trying to get out of the body when it got to the nose, which was the reason Adam sneezed.

But as the soul remained in the body of our father Adam, he got up hastly and show signs of hunger. God describes mankind by this trait of Adam as always being hasty. And you can see that in human beings without any doubt. However God removed/made the souls of the children of Adam from Adam. It is believe that the line in the back was where the souls were removed. Anyway the souls were removed from the body of Adam through his back.

God Almighty took an oath from the assembly of the souls of mankind, asking" Am I not your Lord?; deserving all your worship and your obedience. Mankind as a whole said yes. Then God said that He took the oath from us so that we are witnesses that we had aforetime testified to His Lordship over us. This was when mankind was still in the spiritual relm, having just a soul. (I could educate you about how some souls reacted/acted to other souls in this assemble; which translated to how they acted/reacted to each other/one another when they are bodies/and souls, seeing each other on this earth. I could also tell you how Adam felt toward the soul of David. But you need to do your own investigation on it).

However you will see that no soul of any man was created prior to the creation of Adam. You will also see that all the souls of "sons (children) of man (Adam)" were removed from the body of Adam. That included Noah, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Mu.ha.mm.ad. You will see how Jesus was bold enough to say what he said about him being before Ibrahim and not his true father, Adam? You will also see why I said what I said about myself. Jesus, me, and all mankind had our souls created, so we were in existence long before we became flesh and blood.

I easily could tell you that before Jesus through Mary, I was from Adam directly. But Jesus in this case was a newcomer in the sense that he was after Ibrahiim (as) and this seems to be what you are using to justify the falsehood of the uncreatedness of Jesus. Now you understand.

olabowale:


Maybe it is the Christian God that had problems. Is.lamic God did not, do not and shall not have any problems.

I am glad that at last you have now realised the difference in the God we are serving I am serving the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, what about you?

olabowale:

And considering the millions of people in other nations of the world who were dying, while the Jews were keeping God's commandments to themselves, do you not see faults in your statements here? Can the peopel who the Jews did not tell about God be held blame worthy? Come to think of it, were not the same Jews who refused to even worship God which was the reason their journey of 40 days took 40 years? What happened to those who perished while serving/woshipping the Golden calf? They will go to Children of Israel good heaven, since you have this believe that the commandment cover them wholesale?

God, seeing that there was no one that was good/righteous, serving or wanting to know Him, or to worship Him, decided in His own wisdom to solve that problem starting with one man (Abraham) who would believe Him, hence He is not only called a friend of God but also the father of faith.  It only takes faith to please God, while others were busy with their religion, false philosophies and works of righteousness which at best will only attain to self righteousness and this, to God is like a filthy menstrual pad(filthy rags).  Abraham believed God and righteousness was imputed to him.  It is like a father who wants to deliver some sweets to his children and decides to give them to one child who will in turn  distribute to the others.  Without faith it is impossible to please God.  As God started with Abraham, then to Isaac because God said in Isaac shall thy seed be named.  This was paving the way for God to be revealed in Human flesh.  Isaac was a type of Christ who as a son in his 30's willingly yielded himself as a sacrifice, pointing to the time that God would provide Himself as a sacrificial lamb on the cross for the atonement of our souls.  Through Jesus Christ God would judge our sins, forgive our sins, impart His righteousness unto us who believe, not just believe but to trust him as you would trust a parachute if you were to jump from an airplane in the air.

olabowale:

When Jesus aked the question above in Matthew, just remember you did not tell us who he was asking. But you should remember that he Jesus referred to himself as "Son of Man." And see his question to his disciples?

It is true that He asked the disciples' and the Jews' perception but it is also true in our contemporay day of the divergent erroneous views that different religious people have of Him;
Christian science adherents believe that He was the offspring of Mary's self-conscious communion with God.
Spiritualism believes He is not the Son of God, just a perfect being.
Jehovah's Witnesses believes that Jesus was a man who used to be angel Michael.
Mormonism believe that Jesus is both the Father and the Son.
Mordernism believes that He was a good man that His deluded followers took Him as a god(does that sound familiar?
Christadelphianism believes that Jesus Christ is not divine.
Seventh Day Adventism believes that Jesus in His humanity partook of our sinful nature
Baha'ism believes that Jesus Christ is only one of many manifestations of God, ie one of many Messiahs, and that His sufferings was no more than those other prophets.
I'slamism believes that Jesus Christ was one of the prophets that is coming back to die
Rosicrucianism believes that He is the highest initiate of the sun period, not the only begotten Son of God
Others like the Grail Message and other gnostic religions have their weird views of Him.

olabowale:

I think Syrup should now see that Simon Peter's statement can not be taking as Jesus'. This is my statement with this lady Syrup and she continue to play fast and loose with words.

Syrup is right by saying there is no other foundation other than Jesus Christ.
That confession of the revelation knowledge of who Jesus Christ is, that comes from the heart confirms the new birth.  1John 5:1  That is the Rock on which the church is built on not on Peter as some misguided religious zealots believe
On Christ the solid Rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand.

olabowale:

Abraham vs Lot? Isaa vs Ishmael? What are you talking about Olaadegbu? This one pass me ol boy!

As I said without faith it is impossible to please God Starting from Adam when he decided to doubt, deny and eventually disobey God, choosing to use his own knowledge of good and evil he lost out on the tree of life.  Abel by faith "offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh" Heb.11:4 Seth, Enoch and Noah are other heroes of faith in the same lineage.  Abraham, the father of faith.  Lot due to his carnal disposition almost lost his life in Sodom.  Isaac was born due to the faith of his parents Heb.11:11-12 he also believed God to fulfil His promise as opposed to Ishmael who was born as a result of compromise when Sarah was trying to help God through the slave girl called Hagar.  It should not be suprising that the Arabs who are the descendants of Ishmael  hates Israel with a passion.   Esau lost his birthright to Jacob who valued it.  In a nutshell, unbelievers in Christ hates those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

olabowale:

If you had said that the land God would promise Abraham, it will be understood. But to say the land God promised gives us the impression that there were Children of Israel already living there before Abraham got to it. Can you argue that point with any tangible conviction? You will be shooting yourself in the foot because you said that the land was promised the children of Israel. Who was Israel, now? Who were his children? And who was the granpappy of Jacob/Israel?

It is interesting to note that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob willed the promised land to their children even when they had not physically possessed it     Heb.11:8-10

olabowale:

I guess your statement of curse does not have effect on Makka and Madina or the whole Arabian penisula! I know many countries which has almost zero opinion of the jewish state of israel. And those countries are doing just fine thank you. I also know a lot of orthodox Jewish groups who do not think that Israel as a state right now should exist. But these Jews are also doing wfine, thank you again.

Can you imagine that no language that has been lost has ever been recovered again except for Hebrew language?  Israel was a nation again in 1948 against all odds.  Inspite of the barrenness of the land they are one of the most fruitful nations agriculturally?  The amount of scientists, inventors and business moguls that that nation has produced compared to the whole world's population.  Spiritually, if you receive the Son who was a Jew you will receive the power to become a child of God. John 1:12 and receive the gift of eternal life Rom.6:23 That is the blessing that we should be aiming for.

olabowale:

Olaadegbu, before Abraham was present on earth, my soul was. Therefore before Abraham was I am, too. This is not a great proof of anything. However, no soul was, and that included the soul of Jesus before Adam, for all the souls of man came out from his body. This will be the reason Jesus never went that far, but stopped at Abraham.

This was Jesus' reply to those who doubted Him:"ye shall die in your sins:for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins"  John 8:24

This is one of the eternal names of God, proving that He existed before Abraham(Ex.3:14-15; Micah 5:1-2; John 1:1-2).  The Jews understood that He applied this name to Himself, thereby declaring His deity. 

from olabowale

Maybe God will open your heart for guidance by this dialogue. If the Bible did not tell you where the souls of the children of Adam were created/removed from, then you need to ask your Minister, why the deficiency in your Book. When no clear answer is provided you, then know it is time that you drop the fronting and come over to Al Is.l.am.

The last thing created by God before Adam is rainfall. I am telling you this to show the significance of rainfall. It was not complete that water was on the surface of the earth aalone. But God completed the way of ease of maintaining purity of water, reawaking of the soil, etc through rainfall, a form of irrigation.

God created Adam on friday, between the Asri salah (You make that salah in Nigeria around 4.00pm) and the Magrib salah (The salah that is made immediately the sun sets). When the Soul/spirit entered the body of Adam, it rose up from his toes/feet all the way up. When it got to the level of his nose he sneezed and was immediately inspired to say Alhamdulillah (Thank God), the same exact statement that mus.li.ms make when they sneeze. The Angel responded to him in the same manner that mu.sl.ims respond to a one who sneezes and thank God. You must remember that I stated earlier that the soul was rising up, from the toes/feet as if it was trying to get out of the body when it got to the nose, which was the reason Adam sneezed.

hohohohohohohoho
This must be day of a 1000 laughs.
Spare me the beans pls

@Syrup

Again, your eagerness to argue is admirable - the only thing is that they are still hinged on pride and not humility. Like I said to Olabowale, it's not my disposition to argue endlessly where clear statements are made. To keep arguing against clear statements that Jesus Christ stated is the very ingredient that engenders DENIALS. Is it not amazing how quick a mus.lim is willing to keep DENYING things and yet he does not find this in my post? My approach is different - it is rather to bring the clear statements to bear upon you in very simple terms. Denying them doesn't hurt anyone else than the one who makes the denials - because one is left wondering what such a person really believes at the end of the day.



Quote from: sheniqua on Yesterday at 09:30:15 PM
My Lord!
How many times will you ask the same exact questions.
Is I'slam synonymous with mumurity?

This is why I have stated simply: repetition ad hominem does not present the discussant as having the ability to be humble enough to see reason.

Sister, I will stop responding to your rejoinders since you said that you have provided answers but I never see where you did that, I only responded to your post


Stay blessed.