@Sheniqua (Babyosis)


Hope nothing for changing your id?

Quote from: sheniqua on Yesterday at 09:30:15 PM
My Lord!
How many times will you ask the same exact questions.
Is I'slam synonymous with mumurity?

I responded to her post and you can check for clarity. When will you stop being mischievous?

babs787:

@Syrup

Sister, I will stop responding to your rejoinders since you said that you have provided answers but I never see where you did that, I only responded to your post

Stay blessed.

Okay, I take it on board. Thank you and warm regards.

@Syrup

Okay, I take it on board. Thank you and warm regards.

Thanks and God bless

@Olabowale,

It is rather unfortunate that you strain so much to display your selective reading, which is not a good trait for someone who is open to honest thinking.

When I first joined the Forum, I was not confident in discussing The Great Religion with anyone because I knew so very little about it back then. After reading the rigorous debates from so many contributors who are very knowledgeable on the subject, I decided to read the Qur'an for myself. Has it occured to you that rather than go about denying this and that, my approach is to impress your own truth-claims upon you?

That is a serious offer. But it is surprising that rather than calmly investigate the claims and acknowledge their veracity, you assume a closed mindset and keep harping on things about which you have not demonstrated serious scholarship or convincing discourses.

May I extend an invitation to you persoanlly to drop your prejudices and read the Bible with an open heart. If I could read a copy of the qu.ran for myself, why is it such a feeling of discomfort, uncertainty and fear to pick the Bible up and read it for yourself?

you got it right my sister, this is why i try as much as possible not to engage in serious discussion with olabowale and some others . . .obviously, he's not interested in learning about our Biblical stance, cos he argues endlessly on issues that has been discussed in the past and despite the series of explanation made by other Christian scholars he chooses not to reason along. . . .maybe your invitation would be honoured this time around, maybe.

This is a revisit to the Triune Universe of Time, Space and Matter and how it reveals the divine nature of God.

The institute for creation research states that: " The common phenomena of universal experience are always related to just three - and only three - physical entities.  The perspective of modern science is clearly that of the universe as a time - space - continuum, with each of the three entities essentially indistinguishable from and coterminous with the other two"  For more details on how the universe reveals the triune nature of God read in the weblink below:

http://www.icr.org/first-cause/

This proves Rom.1:19-20 right on spot and that no one will be excused for ignorance on judgment day.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:19-20

@Olaadegbu:
How do you deal with John 5 verse 18, which indicates to us, that such a phenominal was unknown to the jEws before this specific verse?

How do you now deal with Mark 12 vesr 29, where Jesus himself, from his own mouth delares that Lord God is One and he Jesus is not that Lord God, because he serves that Lord God, just in rhe same exact way he is encouraging his audience to serve that Lord God?

OmoOba, Oya. Explain ya sef.

How best can you describe the holy trinity/godhead

Another bunch of baseless argument.

I wouldnt know why this thread exists because the doctrine of trinity has been refuted and those clamouring and supporting it have not been to provide concrete proof to back it up.

Remember this quote?: To ignore the facts does not change the fact.  Up Trinity!

Do you care to supply the facts?

* Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said: ", The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

u re correct. God is one not 'three in one'

We know that Atheists find it difficult to understand the supernatural while the Muslims amongst other religious adherents find it difficult to comprehend  the triune nature of God.  God is not totally comprehensible otherwise He will cease to be God.  I will be using a helpful analogy by C.S. Lewis a former atheist who had come to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, in his book called Mere Christianity.

“You know that in space you can move in three ways – to left or right, backwards or forwards, up or down. Every direction is either one of these three or a compromise between them. They are called the three Dimensions. Now notice this. If you are using only one dimension, you could draw only a straight line. If you are using two, you could draw a figure: say, a square. And a square is made up of four straight lines. Now a step further. If you have three dimensions, you can then build what we call a solid body: say, a cube – a thing like a dice or a lump of sugar. And a cube is made up of six squares.

Do you see the point? A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two dimensional world, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways - in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.

Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple level and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings – just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God’s dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal – something more than a person. It is something we could never have guessed, and yet, once we have been told, one almost feels one ought to have been able to guess it because it fits in so well with all the things we know already.

You may ask, ‘If we cannot imagine a three-personal Being, what is the good of talking about Him. The thing that matters is being actually drawn into that three-personal life, and that may begin any time – tonight, if you like.”

In seeking to understand the Trinity we need to recognise three limiting factors.  First, the human language is limited such that it is incapable of describing the aroma of coffee.  Secondly, the limitation of our own understanding and intellects.  John Eddison in his book talking to children said 'Our little intellectual systems find themselves groaning under the strain of trying to accommodate God'.  Therefore, in an attempt to describe the Trinity we have to resort to the use of paradox.  A paradox as defined by the Concise Oxford Dictionary is a seemingly absurd though perhaps actually well founded statement.  And thirdly, we have to recognise the limits of our finite world and our finite minds.

@ OLAADEGBU

KAI I AM EVEN MORE CONFUSED ABOUT THE TRINITY.

OLAADEGBU CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME PRACTICAL ILLUSTRATION

MC Usman:

@ OLAADEGBU

KAI I AM EVEN MORE CONFUSED ABOUT THE TRINITY.

OLAADEGBU CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME PRACTICAL ILLUSTRATION

Like in the illustration given you only operate in two dimensions which is one better than those operating in one dimensions like the atheists, to move on to the next level, that is, three dimensions you have to get those "glassess" off your face and then pass the test that is below before you will be able to comprehend the third dimension.

Click on this link:

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/goodperson.shtml

@Olaadegbu

We know that Atheists find it difficult to understand the supernatural while the Muslims amongst other religious adherents find it difficult to comprehend the triune nature of God.

Nobody is finding it difficulot to understand but you have not been able to back your doctrine with verses and on that. Most of the verses linked to it have been refuted and you were asked some questions in some of posts in which you ignored.

babs787:

@Olaadegbu


Nobody is finding it difficulot to understand but you have not been able to back your doctrine with verses and on that. Most of the verses linked to it have been refuted and you were asked some questions in some of posts in which you ignored.

When I said you have to remove those glassess from your eyes I did not mean to ridicule you, by using the word glassess or lens, I mean the worldview that you use to interprete the evidence presented to you.  In this case I'slamic worldview.  As long as you use the qu'ran to interprete or view the scriptures that I quote it will always come out distorted.

To explain this with an illustration, A worldview is so strong to the extent of making one disillusioned to reality especially if it is the wrong worldview.  If a man strongly believes that he is physically dead and you are trying to convince him that dead people don't have blood in their veins, and you succeed in proving to him by cutting him to bleed, the person would be surprised at the discovery and say "so dead people do bleed afterall".  You see that he is still convinced that he is dead only that he is now conscious of the fact that dead people bleed.

This is the reason why it makes no sense trying to make you see through my worldview - starting point or presupposition until you are willing to put off your own "glassess".  Whenever you are willing to read the scriptures with a open mind and not a biased mind that is already made up, then you will not be confused with the truth. 

The starting point has to be by visiting this weblink and with a sincere mind through your conscience answer the following questionnaire, then you will see the glorious light of the gospel.

http://www.goodpersontest.com/

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? Jn.3:12

This is the assessment made by the Master which explains why the natural analogies confuses you the more.

Lets see another analogy or paradox from the world of science by a scientist and theologian named Alister McGrath:

"An example of this from the world of science concerns the nature of light.  By the first decade of the twentieth century, it was clear that light behaved in a very strange way - sometimes it seemed to behave as if it was a particle.  It could't be both at once, and so the cry 'contradiction!' was raised.  How could it be two totally different things?  But eventually, through the development of the Quantum Theory, it was found that this contradiction expressed a fundamental difficulty in grasping what the nature of light really was.  In other words, the contradiction did not arise on account of light, but on account of our difficulties in conceiving it."

McGrath went on to show that the nature of light was such that two contradictory models had to be used to account for its behaviour whereas on the Divine level we require three contradictory models.

"Most of us know what light is without needing to think about waves, particles or Quantum Theory.  Light is what we need in order to see, to do our everyday business, to read and write.  It is what comes out of the sun, and to a lesser extent from the moon.  It is what we get when we switch on electric light bulbs or strip lighting.  If we were physicsts, we might want to think about light in much more detail and go into the full complexities of it - and so we might start talking about waves, particles and Quantum Theory.  But we don't need to do this in order to make use of light or to recognise it when we see it."

The fact that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity does not mean that it does not make sense.  When I switch on the television or communicate on a telephone I do not know how they work, but there is an explanation beyond the limits of my understanding and which does make sense.

A more simpler or basic analogy is that of a triangle which has three sides but one triangle.  Another is the Union Jack that is made up of the combination of the flags of St George, St Andrew and St Patrick.  Others can be found at the beginning of this thread such H2O which manifests itself as water, ice and steam.  The illustration of the universe itself, being made up of space, time and matter: Space, with its length, breadth and height; Time, with its past, present and future; Matter consisting of energy, motion and phenomena.

I am sure many of our spiritual enlightened brethren can share their analogies or illustrations that will help us understand and comprehend or grasp the Divine Godhead.

@Olaadegbu:

« #144 on: Today at 07:46:48 AM »
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? Jn.3:12

This is the assessment made by the Master which explains why the natural analogies confuses you the more.

Omoya, who was Jesus, the Master assessing when he directed this statement, above to his audience? The Muslims of Arabia and the world over or the Jews who were listening to him? Considering that he was sent to the lost house of Israel, he could never have been talking about the bretheren of his people, or be talking to Ethipian or Sudanese or iraqi or Afghanistani or Nigerian Muslims. Neither the Arabs, Muslims and the other Muslims fit in the flock which he was to shephard, as long he remained alive.


Therefore, we can easily conclude that he was talking to the companions, the disciples and those who cared to listen among the Jews. These were the unbelievers that he was talking about. The Arabs and the muslims were to be the audience and followers of the yet to come unlettered prophet named Muhammad. Then know that Jesus also predicted that a Comforter will come after he himself have left the prophetic world stage. And thats excatly what happened. His prophetic Master came, and, he began his message about 610 years later.


How then can't you get it that you are in the wrong company? You are one of the people that Jesus was talking about in that verse. You are outside the box of true guidance as long as you are not following Muhammad (as). You were just like the Jews who rejected Jesus during his time and before Muhammad became a prophet. After Muhammad had started his prophethood, jesus authority as a prevailing prophet was ended, wiped out finito capute. Its over for Jesus, the same was it was over for Moses after Jesus became a prophet.

@Olaadegbu:

Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple level and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings – just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God’s dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube.

C. S. Lewis is a darn freak. A liar of a very high order. He left atheism for Christianity? He changed one type of frying pan for a chinese wok. Both of them are cooking utensils. Look at how he described the christian God as three, then he turned around to use six sided cubes and 2 dimensions in a space to justify three godhead or trinity! Since God is not physically here on earth, is He now a cube or three cubes in a space making one cube? Or rather three persons in a space making one person? Orishi rishi. The madness of C. S. Lewis.

The fact that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity does not mean that it does not make sense. When I switch on the television or communicate on a telephone I do not know how they work, but there is an explanation beyond the limits of my understanding and which does make sense.

The fact that we cannot comprehend the Trinity is the first insight that it does not work. The Jews, as a people pride themselves as being people who received revelations. There is no time that they believe that God is three persons! And today, they stand on the original belief that God is One Lord. Since C. S. Lewis has suddenly reduce God to cubes and 2 dimensional objects, and spatial beings, then we should ask the jews whom one of their people is made into the trinitarian object of worship.

Mr. Jew, since you have such a greater scholarship, in every field of study, except Islam, and you have been given the benefit of so many prophets, even though your person, your brother Jesus is supposed to be a god with god Almighty, whats your take on this?

Below is an answer to a question about Trinity from a notable jewish Rabbi. You can read a complete text on the thread "Trinity Help me, entry # 72 made my me, Yesterday July 18, 2008"

quote;
Did Somebody Find the Trinity in the First Chapter of the Bible? To Whom Was God Speaking to When He Said, "Let Us Make Man in Our Image"?

Question:

Dear Rabbi Singer,

A Messianic Jew is working overtime to try to convince me that I need JC. She recently showed me Genesis 1:26, “Let US make man in OUR image,” stating that JC was part of creation with God, plural Us and Our being the proof. Can you explain the plural in this verse to me? I want to have an intelligent answer. I am trying very hard to learn more of my Jewish religion, as I was raised in a non-religious home. The only Bible I own is the one she gave me and it is a King James.


Answer:

No area of Jewish literature could be more inhospitable to the Christian doctrine of the triune godhead than the Torah and the writings of its prophetic messengers. It is on the strength of these sacred texts that the Jew has preserved the concept of one, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to “prove” the doctrine of the Trinity from the Jewish scriptures. No prophet went silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the godhead.
unquote.

one of you must be lying; either the Jews or the Christians since you use the same book, the Bible!

There is another analogy that I want to contribute to the illustration of the Godhead.  Using C.S. Lewis paradox or analogy (I am assuming everyone understands what a paradox means) of the cube being in three dimensions and the square being in two dimensions.  If you shine light on a cube, the reflection you will get on a wall will be a square which is in two dimensions. 

God who is in three dimensions (Father, Word and Holy Spirit) created man in His own image which is (spirit, soul and body) stepped out of eternity and stepped into time as a man, not as an animal or tree but as a man who is in the image of God or a reflection of God and we beheld His glory as the Only begotten of the Father.  Jn.1:14

Just as the square is a reflection of the cube when you shine a light on it so Jesus is the reflection of God.  Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"

@Olaadegbu


You would have noticed that I didn't respond to your posts here like I used to and it reason is because you failed to address the verses I gave you going against trinity from your bible but you avoided those verses and posted links in which you would be able to defend if you and I dissect what is therein.

God who is in three dimensions (Father, Word and Holy Spirit) created man in His own image which is (spirit, soul and body) stepped out of eternity and stepped into time as a man, not as an animal or tree but as a man who is in the image of God or a reflection of God and we beheld His glory as the Only begotten of the Father. Jn.1:14

How many times have I explained the above statement that God made man in His image and what is the image of God if I may ask you and do you really understand what you posted at all? Who can you compare or likened Him that can be made equal? Oga, you better watch what you post because I will use your bible to nail you.

Just as the square is a reflection of the cube when you shine a light on it so Jesus is the reflection of God. Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"

So to you, the above means Jesus is God? Kai, for how long will you keep deceiving yourself? 'If you have seen me, you have seen the father' means that God's work is manifested in Jesus. Jesus happened to be His mouthpiece during his time and Jesus came with the will, message of God and they work in unison (doing what his creator sent him to do). Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the father that sent me and he made the statement because he did what God sent him to do and once you are able to follow what he says, then you dont need to see God because you are following his messenger.

Kai, na wa o for this our christian brothers o

Just as the atheists cannot intellectually comprehend the existence of God equally religious adherents and cultists cannot understand the concept of the nature of God, especially when they insist on reading the Bible with their opaque spectacles which only succeeds in distorting the truth of the Word of God.  Below is an attempt to answer your questions about what the Bible teaches about the Trinity.

The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it.  The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.  God is infinitely greater than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him.  The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God.  The Bible also teaches that there is only one God.  Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean it is not true or not based on the teachings of the Bible.

Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word "Trinity" is not used in Scripture.  This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are 3 coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God.  Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting 3 Gods.  The Trinity is 1 God made up of 3 persons.  There is nothing wrong with using the term "Trinity" even though the word is not found in the Bible.  It is shorter to say the word "Trinity" than to say "3 coexistent, co-eternal persons making up 1 God."  If this presents a problem to you, consider this: the word grandfather is not used in the Bible either.  Yet, we know there were grandfathers in the Bible.  Abraham was the grandfather of Jacob.  So don't get hung up on the term "Trinity" itself.  What should be of real importance is that the concept that is REPRESENTED by the word "Trinity" does exist in Scripture.  With the introduction out of the way, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.

1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14.  In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful.  In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used.  In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question.  In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural.  In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural.  Dual is for two ONLY.  In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands.  The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit.  Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism.  Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4).  Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9).  In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit.  Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father.  Was He speaking to Himself? No.  He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father.  This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity.  This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God.  Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10).  The Father INITIATES all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42).  The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38).  Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity.  The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves.  The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God.  The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity.  Liquid, vapour, and ice are forms of water.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God.  So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate.  An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.  Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God's greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own.  "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?" (Romans 11:33-34)

@Olaadegbu: Ojooro iwo man yi poo ju. Mio fe nma da si oroo e. Sugbon, eleyi gaa o.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

Aren't you disagreeing with the Bible itself that says in many verses that Jesus is GOD LORD HIMSELF? And aren't you disagreing with Jesus, directly who says in Mark 12 Verse 29, that his and his group of listers have the same Lord God who is One Lord? Check yourself man and then check the Bible!

4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

According to the Christian pundits of nairaland, isn't it true that the holy ghost is the direct spirit of Christian God? I remember ~Lady~ telling me that no human exist without a human spirit. So she concluded unabashly that Holy ghost is the spirit of Christian God. I am saying this to set you up for your entry of the holy spirit being subordinate to the son, below.

5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

Walla!, as the french would say. How is it that the spirit that makes the christian God tick or manifest His existence to man, as in the agent that was hovering over the surface of the earth, during creation or was it before it. And also the spirit that truly and symbolically show at the time of baptism of Jesus that he was a begotten son who He was well pleased. And the only part that I have heard that if anyone sins against, or disrespect or abuse, there is no forgiveness for that person. And the part along with the father that can not be killed, since it is obvious that the son was murdered, crucified, killed, etc, could be a subordinate to anything, especially the son? Please explain.

6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

lol. Oh boy. You make me laugh. Read the roles of son and holy ghost. Why would Christian God need 2 parts of Him doing the same exact things? Serving the same functions? Infact, you listed the holy spirit even doing the works of Jesus. Read it. Why would Jesus be necessary? Infact why Trieun, Trinity or whatever you wanna call your godheads be necessary? I think you guys are right along in the theme of your more than one gospel, as you project the same mindset on more than one Christian God. I heard a person say shiio, to indicate his or her dissatisfaction in another thread. i concour, here.

None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapour, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God's greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-34)

~Lady~, Queenisha, Davidylan, rampant, etc, this is what am talking about. Eah is a God. So you have three Gods. Queenisha, am waiting for you to humor me. Olaadegbu, reflect on the last verse! There is your failing! When you guys begin to reduce to an entity that has to come to the earth through the birth canal of a woman. And be a helpless child, etc before he could be a strong young man, etc. And then acquire almost full knowledge since he did not know the time of the last hour. Or when it is the natural condition of a fig tree that did not produce fruit for him, in the off season, etc. And then being controlled in the wilderness by Satan and then followed with 3 temptations. And then killed off. While you say that he was a willing sacrificial lamb. When we see the opposite is the case because he cried out about why he is being forsakened. We will have to ask you, is your heart sound and grounded in true belief? If it is, you would not be worshipping a three gods God!

Omo oba, heck yourself! Why worship the creation when it is the Creator, alone who is deserving of all worship?

olabowale, babs787 et al,

The christian message is so simple that it does not require atheists, muslims or other religious adherents to fully comprehend the pre- existence and nature or Trinity of God before you can benefit from this gospel message. All you need is the right disposition of heart to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The message is simple, that God manifested Himself as a man so as to invite mankind for the forgiveness of our past sins, the impartation of His righteousness to live a new life for the present and to give hope of eternal life for the future.

In the weblink below are stories of people who have had a life changing experience. Each of their stories are true and different as the lives of each one of them is different. But each story tells how each of these people has found hope.

I specifically want to address your attention to testimony number 47 and listen to the moving story of how he experienced the revelation knowledge of who God is. Watch him in the weblink below.

http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp

Olaadegbu: « #153 on: Yesterday at 06:02:51 PM »

olabowale, babs787 et al,

The christian message is so simple that it does not require atheists, muslims or other religious adherents to fully comprehend the pre- existence and nature or Trinity of God before you can benefit from this gospel message. All you need is the right disposition of heart to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

If its simple as you said, then we can all through away INTERPRETATION prosess?

The message is simple, that God manifested Himself as a man so as to invite mankind for the forgiveness of our past sins, the impartation of His righteousness to live a new life for the present and to give hope of eternal life for the future.

Please show me any verse where whatever you call god as a man, said that, " hey people an your God Almighty and i manifest myself as human being, a man, in order that I can impart righteousness in you so that you can get the eternal life that i am presenting to you!" Please don't be shy. Remember you do not have to interprete anymore, because the bible is so simple! Please Olaadegbu, I am willing to learn. Teach me, by showing me. No more gimmick.

In the weblink below are stories of people who have had a life changing experience. Each of their stories are true and different as the lives of each one of them is different. But each story tells how each of these people has found hope.

I specifically want to address your attention to testimony number 47 and listen to the moving story of how he experienced the revelation knowledge of who God is. Watch him in the weblink below.

http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp

Hogwash. I will give you the personally experience of my mother and my Zainab. I know these people personally. Stop giving some faraway examples, when I have the opposite example in my own personal life; mother and wife.

Am even working on rampant, gamine, depzone, ~lady~, queenisha, etc. I will not forget the men, davidylan, pastoraion, and even you. Open your eyes, man.

@Olaadegbu

The christian message is so simple that it does not require atheists, muslims or other religious adherents to fully comprehend the pre- existence and nature or Trinity of God before you can benefit from this gospel message. All you need is the right disposition of heart to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The message is simple, that God manifested Himself as a man so as to invite mankind for the forgiveness of our past sins, the impartation of His righteousness to live a new life for the present and to give hope of eternal life for the future.

In the weblink below are stories of people who have had a life changing experience. Each of their stories are true and different as the lives of each one of them is different. But each story tells how each of these people has found hope.

I specifically want to address your attention to testimony number 47 and listen to the moving story of how he experienced the revelation knowledge of who God is. Watch him in the weblink below.

http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp

Your attention is needed here:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-160520.0.html

olabowale, babs787, McUsman and other muslim friends,

Pictures speaks a thousand times more than words and as they say action speaks louder than words and experience is the best teacher.  Watch testimony number 43 and learn of the experience of an ex PLO terrorist, how he came to the knowledge of truth.  You have a choice whether you want to believe, receive and accept the knowledge of truth or not, this is just an opportunity for you to consider a heart felt experience of truth and not an intellectual argument.

Watch Walid give his amazing story of how he came to the knowledge of truth:

http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp

olabowale, babs787 et al,

It seems that you have already made your choice as regards where you will spend your eternity, the decision you make here on earth determines where you will spend your eternity. But it will only be fair to allow other men and women, boys and girls, rich and poor, educated and not so educated, regardless of their ethnic origin and background to be able to personally come to their own conclusions based on their own research.  Remember, gone are the days of ignorance when they depend on others to decipher the truth, this is the computer and internet age where you cannot prevent people from finding out the truth by themselves.

The truth is not a concept that you can intellectually workout rather He is a Person who is seeking a place in your heart.  The Truth is a Person who is searching for us individually and when the seeker meets the ardent diligent seeker that is when the Truth personally dwells in the individual.  Pride and arrogance prevents us from seeking and finding the Truth. Jesus said that "I am the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through me"  I implore you that you humble your heart and ask God to speak to you through the testimonies of these people as they narrate how they have gone on this journey of hope, and then make your own decision that will determine your destiny.  Checkout the stories of those who have had a powerful encounter with the Truth before you make up your mind in the weblink below: Testimony 43 and 47 and if possible watch other men and women, boys and girls, rich and poor give their encounter with the Truth personified.

http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp

@Olaadegbu: If your idea muslim organization is the PLO, then you must have been an ostrich, for the longest time. I have news for you: There are many Christians in that Nationalsit Organization. Omoya, mo pa oro mo e lenu lono meji: Nationalist and not exclusively islamic! Se o la eti e?

@olabowale,

Let me introduce you to Truth personified, who is the King of my life and the reason the muslims whose stories we have heard and read about as a result of their personal encounters with Him. Click on the link to find out about my King:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=572b18853b3948570fad