Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? - Religion (4) - Nairaland
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| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ckkris: 8:45am On Jun 09, 2012 |
Ijawkid, The Apostles baptised in THE NAME OF JESUS, Acts 8:16;19:5, which is the same as THE NAME of The Father. The Son, and The Holy Spirit, as commanded in Matthew 28:19. Now, if you believe what the apostles believed, you'll understand. If you mix Judaism and Christianity, old wine and new, or NEW WINE in old bag, you'll argue extraneously, making fruitless attempts to make THE WORD OF GOD of no effect. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 8:55am On Jun 09, 2012 |
ckkris: Ijawkid, Oboy have I not been quotin frm d new testament  ?? |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ckkris: 9:18am On Jun 09, 2012 |
Ijawkid, The IMPLICATION of saying that Jesus, Jason, Joshua, or, more Hebraically Jehoshua, is YAHWEH is the normal persecution that Jews have historically launched against THE CHURCH, from the murder of Stephen. And THE CHURCH has always prevailed, against Islam, the Inquisition by The Catholic Church, the distortions vigorously propagated Jehovah's Witnesses, the false old testament sacrifices of Sabbath movement, secret societies, Adolf Hitler, atheists Communist Joseph Stalin, etc. Quoting The New Testament, without believing that it is THE FULFILLMENT of The Old, promised in Jeremiah 31:31, is what caused The Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. JESUS IS LORD. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 11:07am On Jun 09, 2012 |
ckkris: Ijawkid, So ur d 1 quoting d new testament with belief ??..If a Jahs witness says Yahweh is greater than Jesus how does that prove them false ??Need I remind u that d catholics who enforced d trinity dogma killed those who opposed it...... |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ckkris: 12:10pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
Trinity was in The Bible before the Catholic Church came about. Jesus commanded His disciples, in Matthew 28:19, to baptise new converts in The Name of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not NAMES, but just one name that includes the THREE, or the Trinity that His enemies don't want to hear. So the disciples understood their mandate and simply baptised in the name of Lord Jesus, Acts 8:16;19:5. No amount of distortion can change this FACT. I have the original Greek Bible, so no one can now tell me it was Emperor Costantine or the Catholic Church. Let everyone reading this thread know The Truth, and be set free from these and other lies. Not everyone has access to the records of ancient history, but everyone has access to The Holy Bible. Enemies of The Messiah will always defeat themselves. JESUS IS LORD. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 12:21pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
ckkris: Trinity was in The Bible before the Catholic Church came about. Jesus commanded His disciples, in Matthew 28:19, to baptise new converts in The Name of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not NAMES, but just one name that includes the THREE, or the Trinity that His enemies don't want to hear. So the disciples understood their mandate and simply baptised in the name of Lord Jesus, Acts 8:16;19:5. No amount of distortion can change this FACT. I have the original Greek Bible, so no one can now tell me it was Emperor Costantine or the Catholic Church. Let everyone reading this thread know The Truth, and be set free from these and other lies. Not everyone has access to the records of ancient history, but everyone has access to The Holy Bible. Enemies of The Messiah will always defeat themselves. JESUS IS LORD. I don't wory about d name trinity constantine and his crew invented.... All I want u to acknowledge is that Yahweh is greater than Jesus.. Is that too hard to fathom ??Ur quotin matt 28:19 and many tins... That don't change d fact that Jesus has a God and Father...... My issue is Jesus isn't Yahweh......... Matthew 28:19 does nt tell us that Jesus is Yahweh....... Oboy make I ask u this last question..... Is Yahweh greater than Jesus ?Are unitarians wrong when they say Yahweh is greater than Jesus ??Was Jesus himself wrong when he said Yahweh is greater than him ? |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by MrAnony1(m): 12:46pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
@Ijawkid Why are you so hung on whether Jehovah is greater than Jesus. God is one. The trinity are just persons of one being. Why are you so bent on drawing lines and creating hierarchies where there are none? Of what benefit is it? Now to your question; Oboy make I ask u this last question.....Is Yahweh greater than Jesus? Here's your answer; Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn't claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion. Philipians 2:5-8 (MSG) I have responded to this thread earlier, you can look it up. Jesus is God almighty, The trinity is one and the same. God's grace. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by nyameke: 12:55pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
@ ijawkid I have a little time on my hands so I have a question for you.. What made you come to the conclusion that Yahweh is greater than jesus..I want to see how you understand the bible... |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by haibe(m): 1:06pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
Youhesh: It will be better u read that passage of Rev 1 v 8 again. Jesus did not say he was the almighty, God Jehovah was the one who said so. Jesus himself said in John 14 v 28 that the father is greater than he is. Whn asked about the time of the end, he said he did not knw but only the father and in 1 Cor 11 v 3, the bible said the head of the christ is GOd. These scriptures among many others simply shows that Jesus and God are not equal or one. ijawkid: Youhesh: It will be better u read that passage of Rev 1 v 8 again. Jesus did not say he was the almighty, God Jehovah was the one who said so. Jesus himself said in John 14 v 28 that the father is greater than he is. Whn asked about the time of the end, he said he did not knw but only the father and in 1 Cor 11 v 3, the bible said the head of the christ is GOd. These scriptures among many others simply shows that Jesus and God are not equal or one.Sorry what d̶̲̅σ you believe? |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by haibe(m): 1:15pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
ijawkid:Understand that Jesus was as a man when he spoke all this, a man has limitations but a divine nature does not. Jesus(God in flesh/nature of man), the father(God in his divine nature), Which is greater in a fleshly nature and nature of God? |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by haibe(m): 1:50pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
ijawkid:Yes mattew 28:19 tells us jesus and the father are one, is NAME singular or PLURAL, well if you don't know, NAME is singular while NAMES is plural and singular means one. And the bible uses in the NAME of the father son and Holy spirit not NAMES which will mean the father and son are two different beings. Once again yes Jesus(God in flesh) was lesser to the father because of the limitation of the flesh, the bible says he was made a bit lower than the angels (angels are powerful than men) but jesus in his divine nature is equal with the father, and that's why he layed down his life WILLFULLY, he has the power to say he wasn't dieing for our sins but he submitted to the will of the father. Jesus said "destroy this temple(his body) and I will build it back(resurrect) in three days, he said he himself will build it back and other verse said God raised Jesus, don't you still get the clue that Jesus is God himself, co-equal with the father and co-eternal (micah 5:2). When the jews charged Jesus for blasphemy that he says he is God, Jesus never deny that he was God, he even made it clearer. Read zechariah 12:10 God said "they shall look at ME whom they have pierced". Was God pierced? Can he be pierced?. He is telling you here that he is jesus christ that is pierced. Jesus is God. Lots and lots of passages tells us that. Only God is perfect in holiness, Jesus never sinned despite the temptations because he(God) has a holy nature. Let me leave you with this thought. When phillip asked jesus to show him the father, he said have ℓ̊ not been long here with you and yet you have not known ME, he that has seen me has seen the father. Phillip asked to see God, Jesus said so+ you have not known ME.. He is telling phillip, ℓ̊ am God myself, whatever you have seen in me is the same with the father, therefore if you have seen me yoy have seen the father. They are one. God bless you. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by nyameke: 2:03pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
haibe:Good point I have come to realise that most people like Jehovah's witnesses and non believers seem to rely on scriptures that deal with the human nature of jesus and ignore his devine nature as God Almighty.. They will repeatedly quote scriptures about jesus human nature and try to set them against his divine nature.. on the other side you have your ignorant Christians who only just focus on scriptures about his divinity to the extent of almost denying his human nature... People have to understand that Jesus has two natures in the bible.. For the proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to him, His two natures must be properly understood and defined. Jesus is one person with two natures. This is why the bible says he grew in wisdom and stature (only a man grows in wisdom) (Luke 2:52) yet know all things(only God is omniscient and Jesus is God) (John 21:17). He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1,14). 1 Like |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 2:12pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
nyameke: Good point I have come to realise that most people like Jehovah's witnesses and non believers seem to rely on scriptures that deal with the human nature of jesus and ignore his device nature as God Almighty.. They will repeatedly quote scriptures about jesus human nature and try to set them against his device nature.. on the other side you have your ignorant Christians who only just focus on scriptures about his divinity to the extent of almost denying his human nature... Please answer this question..... Was Jesus still a human @ john 20:17... What is this human nature wahala.............. U guys must be a lil sick... I'm sorry to use that word.... Did Jesus being a human make him loose his memory as to who he was b4 descending from d heavens ?So why did he come in d 1st place.... To lie to us or what ??U guys are just trinity sick................... I quoted scriptures of when Jesus was in heaven and u still talk of human nature..... It is still u guys who claim Jesus is still a human in heaven.... U guys are d most confused set of persons I'v ever seen........ When Jesus said those words to mary @ john 20;17 was he still a human |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 2:22pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
haibe: U just beat around d bush just to arrive @ nothing... U never answered my question.... Is Yahweh greater than Jesus ?Yes or no U dey run from fact.... Keep running.... How will Jesus show philip the Father when d Father is invicible,,..... Has anybody seen God b4 ??U answer that question..... No one can see God and live.......... Didn't u read that in ur bible...... John 1:18 tells u who was seen and who was not seen................... I repeat nobody has seen d father... If Jesus was d almighty God he won't make that statement....except he was drunk and forgot who he was.... Jesus came to explain d Father... He is not d Father.... Jesus was sent by some1 higher..... A messanger is not equal to his master 1 corinthians 11:3 tear from ur bible ?Please abandon nicea and face reality and scriptural truths.......... D trinity dogma is why mary is been worshipped.... What else culd be more spurious than that..... Do u believe mary is the mother of God ??The zechariah 12:10 has been debunked a longtime ago..... It was a spurious translation error..... Please use a jerusalem bible to check it up.... ur kjv will tell u Yahweh was pierced... What heresy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If Yahweh died do u know that d world wuld end.... This is what d church Fathers has done to rub Yahweh on d mud.... Please read other translations to see zechariah 12:10 |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by nyameke: 2:39pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
@ijawkid I will answer john 20 17 but before that we have to go step by step...You have to crawl before you walk so let's start from the core of your problem.. I had asked you what you mean by God the father been greater than God the son? In what way |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 3:27pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
nyameke: @ijawkid I will answer john 20 17 but before that we have to go step by step...You have to crawl before you walk so let's start from the core of your problem.. I had asked you what you mean by God the father been greater than God the son? In what way In every way my dear.... Yahweh is more powerfull and all powerful......... Yahweh entrusts Jesus with authority and duties.... Yahweh sends Jesus errands ...... There's nothing Jesus has that he didn't receive from Yahweh..... Be it power,authority and kingdom...... There is nothing Jesus does that he did not learn from. Yahweh....... Jesus learns from some1 and that person is Yahweh.... Yahweh is greater than Jesus in all ramifications..... Jesus is Yahwehs servant.... U doubt ?? |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by nyameke: 5:57pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
ijawkid:lol I knew your understanding of greater as used in the bible was your stumbling block...The issue here is why would jesus say the Father is greater than I and then claim to be equal with God.. A lot of people have issues with that and thus their unwillingness to accept jesus as God.. Now all your claims are false.. Yahweh is not more and all powerful than jesus and he is also not greater than jesus atleast not in the way you understand it.. Here is the passage in question that people dwell on: "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28 We will get to what jesus meant when he said this but first we have to establish something ..I told you we will go step by step.( btw I'm using my phone so bare with me) we have to establish the divinity and deity of jesus as one with the father using the scriptures and what he himself said..( I remember on another thread I explained why Yahweh is the same thing as Yashua) In titus 2:13 the bible talks about jesus as a great God "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" In deut. Jesus Christ ascribes to himself the very exclusive rights of Deity: “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life,I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.” Deuteronomy 32:39 “Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?” Isaiah 43:13 A careful look at most of John chapter 14 have Jesus claiming to have all of God's omni-attributes: "And I WILL DO whatever you ask IN MY NAME, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask ME for anything in my name, AND I WILL DO IT." John 14:13-14 Christ is capable of personally answering all prayers that are directed to him or are addressed in his name. The only way that Christ can both hear and answer all these prayers is if he is both omniscient and omnipotent "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, AND I AM IN YOU. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:20-21 Jesus says that he is IN all the disciples, an impossible claim if he was only a man, or even an angel. But since Jesus is God, and since God is omnipresent, it therefore makes perfect sense for Christ to say he is able to dwell in all the believers at the same time He also says in john 10:30 that he and the father are one.. You can clearly see that jesus is also claiming co equality with the father here.. 1+1=1 now that's an incredible claim... I could go on an quoting the bible about jesus and God being one and the same but I digress.. So back to the greater than question..Now if jesus is one with God then why would he claim in that quote that the father is greater than him? 1 Like |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 7:25pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
nyameke: lol I knew your understanding of greater as used in the bible was your stumbling block...The issue here is why would jesus say the Father is greater than I and then claim to be equal with God.. A lot of people have issues with that and thus their unwillingness to accept jesus as God.. Oboy when Jesus said ""I and the Father are one"" what do u tink he meant ?Goshen360 a million times has been explaining to u guys what oneness means but u shut d doors of understanding....... Where did Jesus ever say ""I am equal to my Father.."" ?Ok let me quote 1 scripture in that john that explains oneness.... John 17:21-24 New International Version (NIV) 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Now if Jesus and his Father are one,and we are one with Jesus,does that mean we are equal to Jesus or that we are Jesus Jesus never claimed equality with his Father... U guys are the ones forcing it on him.... Oneness means unity and agreement.... If u argue Yahweh isn't greater than Jesus then it means Jesus is a liar..... U'll explain to me soon why Jesus would not have d knowledge of sometin but only Yahweh has..... Remember Jesus never knew when d world will end but Yahweh did..... My bro d scriptures are clear... But d council of nicea has blind folded every trinitarian to follow d course of paganism........ Its an insult on Yahweh for u to say Jesus is equal to him............ SMH... I quoted a scripture that even confirms that Jesus is Yahwehs servant..... Or have u been playing around Let me quote it out for u.... Acts 3:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go Acts 4:27-30 27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” Please my brother how can the servant of God be equal to God.......... Please Jesus been lesser than Yahweh doesn't change d fact that Jesus is our Lord and high priest..... Jesus enjoys a lofty position there in d heavens,but ofcus he has a superior.... It will only take one with serious eye defect not to see it....... Beside§ if Ù claim Yahweh Ísnt powerful than JesÙs I wonde® why Jesus always humbly waiteÐ for God to entrust him with power Ànd authority.... E be like u no read 1 corinthians 15:27 $ 28....... Yahweh gave Jesus authority and he is Jesus's God.... How can u blatantly run away from Jesus 's words ??Yahweh is d Father and God of Jesus.... Is that hard for u to believe Jesus has a God over him |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by nyameke: 8:43pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
Let's also look at how greater than is used in the bible and what jesus really meant when he said that.. In the first place, the term for "greater" does not necessarily imply one who is greater in nature or essence. It can refer to someone or something being greater in position and/or authority... It is quite clear Jesus was talking bout position or rank in that context .. but let's look at some scriptures: "I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matthew 11:11 John being greater than all those born of women does not imply that the rest were less human than John, or that they were inferior to John in nature. Here, the term must mean that John was greater in position and rank. "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master,nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." John 13:16 Both the slave and the one sent are just as human as the master and the sender, having the same human essence and nature that the master and sender have. Thus, greater here must mean in position and authority, not in essence and nature. "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these,because I am going to the Father." John 14:12 The disciples did not perform better works, but performed a greater number of works than Christ since they reached far more people than Jesus did while he was on earth. Hence, the term "greater" refers to quantity, the amount of works, as opposed to quality since the disciples performed the same type of works but in far greater number. Once you begin to understand the context of how "greater " is used in these context then you will begin to understand what the messiah meant... Ok now let's try to tie all these together.. The Scriptures teach that when Christ became a man, he assumed the role and position of a slave/servant: "For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves." Luke 22:27 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross..Phil.2:5-8.. Rom 9:5: “according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.” In becoming a man something changed since he was not in a servant role to the Father before He became man. This was a change of position, not a change in nature. He, as God, could not empty himself of His essential nature, since unchangeableness is part of his nature. All His attributes are eternal so he could not eliminate any but he could put them aside in using them as He entered time and space to manifest to us as man.. Thus, as long as Christ remained on earth in the form and position of a humble slave, enduring persecution, insults, injury, and subsequently the shame of the cross, the Father would be greater in position and honor. Once Christ returns to heaven to be seated alongside his Father, he would no longer be in that state of humiliation. He would share, once again, that same divine glory and sovereign authority that he had with the Father before he had come to the earth as a man: "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was... Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." John 17:5, 24 To conclude yes the Father was greater but in position and rank (I hope you understand why now), not in essence and nature..in their essence or core they are equal because they are one and the same. One is not more powerful and greater in all ramifications like you alluded to... Now we can move on to other questions you have sorry if second part took a while I got a little busy... |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 9:55pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
nyameke: Let's also look at how greater than is used in the bible and what jesus really meant when he said that.. I can't believe my eyes here..... ""The Father is greater than I am" U deny it and give a rubbish explanation for it.. Jesus ""servant of Yahweh"" You give another rubbish explanation for it.. Jesus called Yahweh ""my Father and my God"" Yet again u give a more rubbish explanation..... Jesus assuming a human role was even an errand he was running for his superior...... And if I may remember it still d mumu trinity dogma that suggests that Jesus was half man half God while on earth... And now u deny scriptures were Jesus said he is Yahwehs servant.. The council @ nicea has really deluded every single trinitarian......... And please lastly kindly and rubbishly explain 1 corinthians 15:27 and 28 I wanna hear how u will explain it....... Please explain it and let us call it a day........ Explain why Jesus will still be subordinate to Yahweh right there in d heavens... Take note:::: That verse explains what will happen in heaven... |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by haibe(m): 9:58pm On Jun 09, 2012 |
ijawkid:But do. You belief jesus is eternal as his father( no beginning, no end).? |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by MrAnony1(m): 12:23am On Jun 10, 2012 |
ijawkid: @Ijawkid; Why do you keep on conveniently ignoring this passage of scripture? 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Philipians 2:5-8 (NIV) Are you truly seeking the truth or do you just like the sound of your own voice so much that you stubbornly block out all other reason except those that agree with your erroneous presumptions? |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 12:58am On Jun 10, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: What do u understand from that passage u just quoted.... Oya start explaining............. Jesus was in d nature of God and never considered himself equal to God just as sataÑ earlier did...... ........ Hw is that verse a verse to support Jesus being equal to his Father ??E be like ona Éye dey §ee double.......... 1 Like |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 1:13am On Jun 10, 2012 |
@mr Ànony Ànd ur freind that quoted phillipÍans 2:5-7...please I want u both to read thru this researched exegesis given by a scholar..... The kjv is what has actually side tracked many of ur distorted comments here..... Please read thru judiciously.... Get d sense of what paul was saying from phillipians,consider d context when u read bible verses..... Its one thing goshen has always told u guys b4 he left this post...... Read below:::::::::::: As in any exegesis of any verse, one must always interpret it in the context in which it was written. So at this time please open your Bible and read from verse 1 – 12. First we are going to cover the context and then the point of this hymn, and then we will do a line by line exegesis. Let’s review the context first. In verse 1-2 Paul is telling the Philippians to be of the same mind, to show the same love. In verse 3 he tells them not to do anything out of selfishness or vainglory, but to be humble. He tells them to regard OTHERS as more important than themselves. To consider other’s interests as more important than their own. All this is happening during a time of persecution. Then in verses 5-8 he uses the life of Christ as an example of what he is speaking about. He tells them to have the same attitude as Christ. The point of the hymn in this context is that suffering, humility, and obedience to God for the faith leads ultimately to exaltation. Now that we have covered the context in verses 1-5, we are ready for the first controversy in verse 6. There are two different interpretations. The first is from the KJV, it states: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." The majority of Bibles including the NAB, NASB, NRSV, NIV, and The Amplified Bible, just to name a few, interpret it as: "Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped." First let us get an understanding of the phrase "Who being in the form of God." The key being the word "form." The word form (morphe) and image (eikon) are interchangeable. R.P. Martin ("Morphe in Philippians 2:6," Expository Times, Vol. 70, no.6, March 1959, 183-184) states: "That morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX." James Dunn states in Christology in the Making pg.115: "It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms." An understanding of image will help us in the understanding of form. Let us look at their definitions. According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means: Form(morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion. Image(eikon) – likeness, or figuratively a representation. Being in the form or image of something means that it is not the original. If I have something that is in the form or image of a lion, then it is not really a lion. If it was, I would not have to say that it was in the form or image of a lion, I would just say that it is a lion. Man was made in the image of God. God made man as a representation of himself. Someone he could share a piece of himself (having the spirit of God in us) with. Gen.1:27 – "God created man in his image." 1 Cor. 11:7 "Because he (man) is the image and glory of God." These verses do not mean that because we are the image of God that we are God. It means that God made us with his attributes. We have the ability to think (do his will) and to love like God. These next two verses do not mean that Jesus is God in the same way that the verses above do not mean that man is God. They mean that Jesus is the image of God because as God’s anointed he does the will of God and loved us (as God does) enough to die for us. Jesus and God’s purpose are one and the same. Our purpose should be the same as Christ’s. This is what Paul is telling the Philippians in verse 5, to have the same attitude (the image) as Christ. 2 Cor. 4:4 – "Christ who is the image of God." Colossians 1:1 – "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God." When we are reborn or renewed we then bear the image of Christ and of God (because they are one in purpose) because we put away the old self and put on the new self which now does the will of God. Colossians 3:10 says it clearly: "Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator." This next verse is also a good example. The disobedient are said to have a form of godliness. It doesn’t mean that they are God, in this verse it means that they pretend to be like God (righteous), but in reality are not. 2 Tim. 3:5 – "Having a form (the disobedient) of godliness but denying its power." The KJV basically says that Jesus did not think anything wrong of being considered equal with God. This is contrary to the Adam Christology that is being applied and in total contradiction to the context of this chapter which is humility, selflessness, to be a slave of, not to be equal with, especially with God. Now let’s see how this understanding of the word "form" fits in this passage. Let us look at both verses again. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." "Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped." Let us review the context of this chapter. It is about being humble. It is about putting others ahead of oneself. Of making others more important than oneself like Christ did. Christ put God’s interests (God’s will) and ours ahead of himself just like we should put other’s interests ahead of our own. The KJV interpretation of verse 6 goes completely contrary to that idea. It does not convey humility, it states the opposite, grandeur. It says that although Jesus was like, or represented God, that he did not think that there was anything wrong in being considered equal to God. It is basically hypocritical. The other Bible interpretations are in line with the context of the chapter. Their sense is determined by their role within Adam Christology. The conclusion to these verses is that Jesus is the second Adam created in the image of God as Adam was. As Adam, Jesus is in esteemed position, they are both called "son of God." Like Adam, Jesus was faced with a choice: seek his own interests or God’s; obey or rebel. Adam’s temptation was that he wanted to be like God (Gen. 3:5). Adam sought to grasp (the NRSV has grasp as, "something to be exploited"  equality with God. But Jesus incontrast to Adam’s selfish choice did not seek to usurp God’s authority but instead took the position of a slave to God and obeyed him to the point of death. Now on to verse 7-9. It says: "Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him." Let me start with the phrase "he emptied himself." Many people use this verse in defense of the Trinity when confronted with questions such as "If Jesus is omniscient then how come he does not know the day of his return? Their answer is that Jesus doesn’t know that because he emptied himself of His divinity when he came as Jesus. This idea has an actual name. It is called the Kenotic Doctrine. Before going on, let me show you the Creed of the Council of Chalcedon, which is the definition of Jesus which all good Trinitarians adhere to, Catholic and Protestant. To be continued...... |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by nyameke: 1:14am On Jun 10, 2012 |
Mr_Anony:lol I was about preparing some more stuff for him but my spirit told me he is not there yet he has ears but do not hear.. he lacks wisdom.. He is the same guy who was arguing with me when I told him a man and a woman are equal but just different in roles... He is one of those people with lower level of consciousness..People with lower level of consciousness think females submitting means they are inferior.. Greater means better, servant means lower or inferior, a follower means an inferior or a fool..Out of ignorance they will respect the minister more than they would a comedian or the cook or the painter.. They are all about the form and never the essence ... |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 1:17am On Jun 10, 2012 |
DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD) Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us. The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both. In 1951, in celebration of the 1500th birthday of the Chalcedon Creed, Pope Pius the 12th wrote the following on the Kenotic Doctrine: Encyclical of Pope Pius the 12th on the Council of Chalcedon September 8, 1951 (paragraph 29). There is another enemy of the faith of Chalcedon, widely diffused outside the fold of the Catholic religion. This is an opinion for which a rashly and falsely understood sentence of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Philippians (2:7), supplies a basis and a shape. This is called the kenotic doctrine, and according to it, they imagine that the divinity was taken away from the Word in Christ. It is a wicked invention, equally to be condemned with the Docetism opposed to it. It reduces the whole mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption to empty the bloodless imaginations. So what does he emptied himself mean? It means that Jesus being in an esteemed position (The Messiah, the king of Israel, Jn 1:41 & 49) emptied himself of all the rights, power and privilege that were his and instead humbled himself like a slave to the will of God. The Amplified Bible states Verse 7 as: "But stripped (emptied) himself of all privilege and rightful dignity so as to assume the guise of a servant." Remember, Jesus was and is the Messiah, the right hand of God. And as God’s right hand he is anointed with incredible power. But he chose not to use this power but instead yielded to the will of God to the point of death. An example that comes to mind is when Jesus is about to be arrested. It states: Matthew 26:53 – "Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels?" He could have summoned them, but he didn’t. He could have used his esteemed position to call for angels to protect him, but he chose to empty himself of his right and privilege in obedience to God. Now let us look at the remaining verses. 2:7: "Coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance." People have really gone overboard with this verse. They will say that since in the previous verse God emptied himself of his divinity, that then he appeared as a human, Jesus. How this fits in a context of living a life of humility and obedience is beyond me. It just doesn’t. The NAB which is a Catholic Bible that believes in the preexistence of Christ has this to say about verse 7: 2:7: "It is also possible to interpret so as to exclude any reference to preexistence and to take vv 6-8 as parallel stanzas about Jesus’ human state." Let’s first review what the word translated as "likeness" (eidos) means. Its literal translation is "fashion." Let’s see what Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has to say about this word and its usage in this verse. Fashion(eidos) – "In general the state and relations of a human being, so that in the entire mode of his appearance he made himself known and was recognized as a man." In the simplest of terms, this definition states that Jesus was just like us. Paul speaks of the same thing in Hebrew 2:17 - 18, it states: "Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propiations for the sins of the people. For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." All verse 7 is saying is that Jesus refused to use his esteemed position for his own interests, instead, even though he was human like the rest of us, he resisted the temptation to follow his own desires and chose to follow the will of God, to obey God to his death. This fits in with Paul’s Adam – Jesus comparison. The first Adam was tempted and failed. The second Adam was tempted and was victorious. "Just like sin and death entered the world though a man named Adam, eternal life was also brought to us through another man named Jesus (paraphrasing Romans 5:12 – 21). Now we end our exegesis with verse 9. Paul is using Jesus as an example of how to live. Jesus was tempted and he suffered, but he obeyed even when it cost him his life. Because of his obedience God has greatly exalted him. This is the message that Paul is conveying to the Philippians. Be like Christ, follow his example. He was human just like us, which means that it is humanly possible for us to live a life of obedience to God if we set our minds to it. And just like he has been rewarded, so will you. You too will be exalted ( resurrected). This chapter along with the episode of the temptation of Christ in the gospels makes no sense if Jesus is a Godman. It makes no sense for Paul to urge on the Philippians to imitate Christ if Christ is a Godman. How can they, they are not Godmen. The temptation of Christ and Philippians 2 both give us encouragement that sin can be overcome even in this age if we follow God’s will instead of our own as Jesus did. Jesus although he was the Messiah was human just like us, and he proved to the world that it is possible to follow the will of God if we choose to. And if we do, then we too will be exalted by God. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by ijawkid(m): 1:17am On Jun 10, 2012 |
DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD) Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us. The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both. In 1951, in celebration of the 1500th birthday of the Chalcedon Creed, Pope Pius the 12th wrote the following on the Kenotic Doctrine: Encyclical of Pope Pius the 12th on the Council of Chalcedon September 8, 1951 (paragraph 29). There is another enemy of the faith of Chalcedon, widely diffused outside the fold of the Catholic religion. This is an opinion for which a rashly and falsely understood sentence of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Philippians (2:7), supplies a basis and a shape. This is called the kenotic doctrine, and according to it, they imagine that the divinity was taken away from the Word in Christ. It is a wicked invention, equally to be condemned with the Docetism opposed to it. It reduces the whole mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption to empty the bloodless imaginations. So what does he emptied himself mean? It means that Jesus being in an esteemed position (The Messiah, the king of Israel, Jn 1:41 & 49) emptied himself of all the rights, power and privilege that were his and instead humbled himself like a slave to the will of God. The Amplified Bible states Verse 7 as: "But stripped (emptied) himself of all privilege and rightful dignity so as to assume the guise of a servant." Remember, Jesus was and is the Messiah, the right hand of God. And as God’s right hand he is anointed with incredible power. But he chose not to use this power but instead yielded to the will of God to the point of death. An example that comes to mind is when Jesus is about to be arrested. It states: Matthew 26:53 – "Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels?" He could have summoned them, but he didn’t. He could have used his esteemed position to call for angels to protect him, but he chose to empty himself of his right and privilege in obedience to God. Now let us look at the remaining verses. 2:7: "Coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance." People have really gone overboard with this verse. They will say that since in the previous verse God emptied himself of his divinity, that then he appeared as a human, Jesus. How this fits in a context of living a life of humility and obedience is beyond me. It just doesn’t. The NAB which is a Catholic Bible that believes in the preexistence of Christ has this to say about verse 7: 2:7: "It is also possible to interpret so as to exclude any reference to preexistence and to take vv 6-8 as parallel stanzas about Jesus’ human state." Let’s first review what the word translated as "likeness" (eidos) means. Its literal translation is "fashion." Let’s see what Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has to say about this word and its usage in this verse. Fashion(eidos) – "In general the state and relations of a human being, so that in the entire mode of his appearance he made himself known and was recognized as a man." In the simplest of terms, this definition states that Jesus was just like us. Paul speaks of the same thing in Hebrew 2:17 - 18, it states: "Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propiations for the sins of the people. For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." All verse 7 is saying is that Jesus refused to use his esteemed position for his own interests, instead, even though he was human like the rest of us, he resisted the temptation to follow his own desires and chose to follow the will of God, to obey God to his death. This fits in with Paul’s Adam – Jesus comparison. The first Adam was tempted and failed. The second Adam was tempted and was victorious. "Just like sin and death entered the world though a man named Adam, eternal life was also brought to us through another man named Jesus (paraphrasing Romans 5:12 – 21). Now we end our exegesis with verse 9. Paul is using Jesus as an example of how to live. Jesus was tempted and he suffered, but he obeyed even when it cost him his life. Because of his obedience God has greatly exalted him. This is the message that Paul is conveying to the Philippians. Be like Christ, follow his example. He was human just like us, which means that it is humanly possible for us to live a life of obedience to God if we set our minds to it. And just like he has been rewarded, so will you. You too will be exalted ( resurrected). This chapter along with the episode of the temptation of Christ in the gospels makes no sense if Jesus is a Godman. It makes no sense for Paul to urge on the Philippians to imitate Christ if Christ is a Godman. How can they, they are not Godmen. The temptation of Christ and Philippians 2 both give us encouragement that sin can be overcome even in this age if we follow God’s will instead of our own as Jesus did. Jesus although he was the Messiah was human just like us, and he proved to the world that it is possible to follow the will of God if we choose to. And if we do, then we too will be exalted by God. 1 Like |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by dorox(m): 2:04am On Jun 10, 2012 |
@ijawkid: Wow!!! You just blew me away. Loved every bit of your explanation, you have so far IMHO given the most complete explanation of jesus christ. 1 Like |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by haibe(m): 1:02pm On Jun 10, 2012 |
@ijawkid if God dwells in you, don't you think it is possible to live like God since he now lives the live for you and ye are no longer yourselves but of God, it seems you don't still understand when the bible says we are the temple of the holyspirit which is in us or when the bible says he that is in christ is a new creature. When God lives in you, you can live very much like God as he lived when he came in flesh, S̶̲̥̅Ơ̴̴̴̴̴̴͡ ƔυƦ case of how can a man live like a Godman is just because of ƔυƦ lack of understanding, paul urges them to live like christ the Godman(just using ƔυƦ word) because he understands that christ has promised to come and dwell in them in person of the holyspirit and that with the power of the holyspirit in man he can very much live like the Godman jesus. Am thinking you read the bible as a storybook, you really need the help of the author(holy spirit) when reading the bible if not you will continue like this using wisdom of a mere man and don't forget that the carnal man receives not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned(1 corinthians 2:14). I. Know why you cannot understand the trinity because they are foolishness unto you and that's because you are yet carnal. May God open ƔυƦ eyes |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by Ayomivic(m): 1:24pm On Jun 10, 2012 |
Goshen360: @ frosbel, If that is the question then the answer is NO.There is God and there is Jesus the evidence are plenty in the bible from Genesis to revelation even Jesus says it many times that there was God the father, not need of argue on this. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by dorox(m): 2:47pm On Jun 10, 2012 |
haibe: @ijawkid if God dwells in you, don't you think it is possible to live like God since he now lives the live for you and ye are no longer yourselves but of God, it seems you don't still understand when the bible says we are the temple of the holyspirit which is in us or when the bible says he that is in christ is a new creature. When God lives in you, you can live very much like God as he lived when he came in flesh, S̶̲̥̅Ơ̴̴̴̴̴̴͡ ƔυƦ case of how can a man live like a Godman is just because of ƔυƦ lack of understanding, paul urges them to live like christ the Godman(just using ƔυƦ word) because he understands that christ has promised to come and dwell in them in person of the holyspirit and that with the power of the holyspirit in man he can very much live like the Godman jesus.My honest opinion is that you made no sense at all, read through ijawkid's explanation of philipians 2:1-12 and judge for yourself if it is not consistent with what jesus said about himself in the bible. |
| Re: Is Jesus Christ Same As God Almighty?? by Goshen360(m): 2:53pm On Jun 10, 2012 |
Ayomivic: You should know this from the title of the thread,lolz. |
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