₦airaland Forum

joseph1013:
I means that I live my life in a way that if I see a truth that contradicts what I have held, I can change my belief, regardless of how hard it may be.

Do you have something against that?

Which means there's a chance you have flawed belief....but you're always open to consider other ideas/beliefs. Am I right?

joseph1013:
I means that I live my life in a way that if I see a truth that contradicts what I have held, I can change my belief, regardless of how hard it may be.

Do you have something against that?

Interesting. So, how do you determine truth?

frank317:
I have watched the video u have been parading as a description of God and I wonder what u find amazing in the nonsense that man is talking.
He said God is the condition for the possibility of the world.... What's that? What a vague way to describe something u don't even understand. Why try to describe something ur brain cannot even phantom?

Then according to u guys, this God (which is a condition in which the world exists) demans human respect (like my dad, according to u) and worship...he is not a just a thing in the universe but desperately want things in the universe to love, worship and obey it like his life depends on it

U make something up and still make it sound clueless

There's an observable pattern in your responses - you lack the brain power to comprehend philosophy and theology. It's quite telling in your replies. Instead of asking for more explanation and clarification, you arrogantly resort to dismissive tactics. Yet, you try to project your own ignorance on another person. You probably think that's just what you have to do to win an argument or validate your own argument, or that everyone is like you - dumb.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1e2DfwN5oQ

frank317:
Theists present a God... (Yet to be proven)

Whatever I say of this God is bases on the kind of God u have presented. They are basically your God view not mine.

If God is who u describe according to ur bible... Then he acts like a bully when he demands worship from humans, his creations. He should earn his worship by surpassing his fellow Gods and earning their respect no create play toys and demand worship from them.

Using the word dad to replace God is an insult to God.

Interesting. Sincerely, what is your understanding of God? Can you frame my argument as per the existence of God?

Zodiac61:
When, then, did god begin?

If something came into existence at a certain point in time, that is, if it had a beginning, then there needs to be a cause, an explanation, for why it came to be. But if something exists outside of time, like God, then it does not need an explanation for its beginning, because it does not have one.

So the question “When, then, did God begin?” is nonsensical, because it amounts to asking “When did a timeless being begin?"

There is so much wrong with the post above. Just because you use scientific sounding words does not mean that what you say makes sense, because it does not.

I'm sorry the scientific words made no sense to you. Maybe you could ask follow-up questions for clarifications rather than the dismissiveness.

And as for your last sentence, are you not a bit confused? It is crazy to conclude that belief in the supernatural does not require faith, but that a lack of belief in that which is unprovable does.
Muddled thinking aplenty.

No, my friend, it's not crazy, even primary school kid. It's simple: It takes faith to believe in everything coming from nothing. It takes only reason to believe in everything coming from something.

Cathechism of the Catholic Church: "Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason, even if this knowledge is often obscured and disfigured by error. This is why faith comes to confirm and enlighten reason in the correct understanding of this truth: 'By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.'"

HellVictorinho:
He is insane.

EXPLAIN.

HellVictorinho:
It is not true that there was a time when nothing existed.

Correct!

LordReed:
I don't need to because cosmology is not central to ATHEISM (disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods). How the universe came about is a whole different topic, one that cosmologists are working to answer.

LordReed:
Atheists do not claim something came from nothing that is what religionists claim. Besides atheism has nothing to do with cosmology so stop lumping the 2 together. Even if every we know about cosmology today is wrong it brings us no closer to acknowledging the existence of a deity.

Steve Hawking says "there was nothing around before the big bang."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ88kC2Nx8M

Richard Dawkins: "Something can come from nothing and that's what physicists are now telling us."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK35bv3M7yg

LordReed:
Are you stupid or are you just spoiling for a fight?

I wrote this as a clarification:



If you don't understand what I wrote you could have asked for a clarification instead of acting a fool.

And I upended your clarification:

9inches:
No, it matters because none of the arguments (approaches) is bereft of pure objective reasoning. You also haven't explained where and how you think the intuition came into play.

There's a difference between what you think someone else's argument is and what it actually is. Giving the dog a bad name just to kill it much?

Cathechism of the Catholic Church says: "Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason, even if this knowledge is often obscured and disfigured by error. This is why faith comes to confirm and enlighten reason in the correct understanding of this truth: 'By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.'"

If you like, continue reducing my argument to "intuition."

budaatum:
I cite buda. Something had to exist to go bang (assuming there was a bang). It must have been a big thing that existed, hence big bang. And even if there were no bang and gods did it. They'd have had to have existed in order to create what didn't exist. And something must have existed to create the gods themselves, and something must have existed to create whatever created whatever created the gods, and something must have existed to create whatever created whatever created whatever created the gods, and something must have existed........ad infinitum.

buda cited.

So which/what was the first "big [some]thing" that started the rest? Did Buddha say what it was and what it was made of? In short, when was the beginning of "something"?

Philosophically and theologically, if something came into existence at a certain point in time, that is, if it had a beginning, then there needs to be a cause, an explanation, for why it came to be. But if something exists outside of time, like God, then it does not need an explanation for its beginning, because it does not have one.

So, the question of who created God would be nonsensical, because it amounts to asking “who created an uncreated being?”

Martinez19:
The claims of theistic positions have no concrete basis in reality. In fact, they have no basis at all. They all have to be accepted by faith and they cannot survive critical thinking and logical analysis.

Here's a critical thinker. What do you make of it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1e2DfwN5oQ

I would transcribe if you prefer it written.

1. Who God Is & Who God Isn't


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zMf_8hkCdc

2. How do we know there's a God? Why do we believe in God at all?
That's the foundation for the whole spiritual life. The great theologians and spiritual teachers have used different approaches to this question over the centuries. One of my favorites is the approach that begins with desire. We human beings desire the truth. Our minds seek the truth and we get it sometimes. But no matter how much truth we get out of this world, it's never enough; the mind remains unsatisfied. We seek the good and find it a lot of ways in this world, but no matter how many goods we attain, we’re never really satisfied. We seek justice in all kinds of ways and we achieve it sometimes to a remarkable degree. Think of in our own time, civil rights movement, the end to apartheid, the breakdown of the Soviet Union… all those were wonderful things that were attainment of justice but no matter how much justice we attain, we never have enough.

There's something in us - this desire for the good, the true, the just, that pushes us beyond this world. This approach is called the argument from desire. You can't desire what you don't know. Therefore, if we are desiring something that transcends anything in this world, in some way, we must already know it. Therefore, we do know the truth itself; we do know the good itself; we do know justice itself… and that's who God is!

God is not one of the true things in the world, but God is the truth itself which has seized the mind of any scientist, any philosopher, any seeker after the truth.

God is not one more good thing in the world, but God is goodness itself which has seized anybody when he's living the moral life or seeking the ethically good.

God is not one more just thing in the world, but God is justice itself which has seized the will of the lawyer or the judge or anyone seeking justice.

The Bible talks about the primacy of God. When you're seeking God, the most important to realize is you've already been found by God. Remember the Russian cosmonauts who went up into space and they kind of sarcastically radioed back to earth “well, we're up in the heavens and we haven't found God.” Of course, any biblical person would know he'll never find God that way. Of course not, you don't find God anywhere in the cosmos he's made, but God is the creative source of all that exists in the cosmos. So that's one approach to God beginning with our own deep desire.

Here's a second approach and it comes from Pope [Benedict XVI] who wrote a great book in 1968 called introduction to Christianity. In that book, he formulates this argument and what I like about it is it shows the link between religion and science because very often those two are seen as enemies. He says “no, at their depth, religion and science come together.” Here's why: what does every scientist assume? Whether you're a physicist, a chemist, biologist, psychologist… whatever you are, you assume that ‘being’ is intelligible. That means that the world can be known. Even the name ‘psychology’ designates ‘logos’ (word). The scientist goes out to meet a world that's imbued with meaning.

Well how do you explain that? How do you explain the universality of the meaningfulness of the world? Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) said it's because it has been thought into being. In other words, the world is not just dumbly there. Rather, the world is filled with ‘logos’; it's filled with reason, which is why when we understand the truth, we say we “re”-cognize” it. He says, “right, you ‘re’-cognize it” (you think it again) because it's already been thought into being by God... So, he argues from the objective intelligibility of the world to the existence of a great intelligence which has thought the world into being.

Here's a third approach the philosophers and theologians have used. it's called the argument from contingency. It's a fancy way of saying that the world as we know it exists but doesn't have to exist. You and I are here but we don't have to be here; there's nothing necessary about our being. It's true the world as we know it is fleeting (it's passing). Therefore, we have to go outside the world to God. God who does exist through himself and who therefore grounds and creates the whole of the world that we know.

frank317:
When I say u guys unconsciously view God as an incomprehensive human, u guys still cone out to prove me right.

Dad is a fellow human with all the human limitations

God is the creator with no single human limitations

Why are u belittling thy God?

You guys myopically view God as what you can reduce to be contained and confined in the world. You want to know and understand him in your own terms, not the way he actually is. I rephrased your question to help your understanding at your level.

Some things in the world are incomprehensive to say the last, let alone the Source of everything in the world. You haven't started reasoning, dude.

LordReed:
Atheists do not claim something came from nothing that is what religionists claim. Besides atheism has nothing to do with cosmology so stop lumping the 2 together. Even if every we know about cosmology today is wrong it brings us no closer to acknowledging the existence of a deity.

Could you please cite any atheist who believes something came out of "something" and not "nothing". Thanks!

HellVictorinho:
Not everyone agreed with him then and not everyone had to.
Einstein didn't have two heads.

Does everyone agree with every truth? People still believe the earth is flat.

LordReed:
I did already in my summary of each point. All of them make intuitive leaps and are appealing to the reader's intuition.

You're obviously lying. You zeroed in on an example which is not one of the main approaches discussed. Yet, you couldn't show anything that made it seem to you like an "intuitive leap." That's what a dishonest person does when he could not take on an argument. It's very convenient but a lazy thing to do.

frank317:
What does Dad really wants? Where are his mates? Why is he so much concerned with what his ordinary creations (children) think of him? That's too petty... U only get the feeling of a championship when u get the respect of ur mates... But this so called dad is feeling cool from respect and worship from his little children... This is absurd.

Now, you can actually answer yourself with ease.

HellVictorinho:
What if Einstein was wrong on that one?

It would be known by now.

raptex:
I prayed to God to reveal himself many times. I even still do.

How do we know there's a God? Why do we believe in God at all?
That's the foundation for the whole spiritual life. The great theologians and spiritual teachers have used different approaches to this question over the centuries. One of my favorites is the approach that begins with desire. We human beings desire the truth. Our minds seek the truth and we get it sometimes. But no matter how much truth we get out of this world, it's never enough; the mind remains unsatisfied. We seek the good and find it a lot of ways in this world, but no matter how many goods we attain, we’re never really satisfied. We seek justice in all kinds of ways and we achieve it sometimes to a remarkable degree. Think of in our own time, civil rights movement, the end to apartheid, the breakdown of the Soviet Union… all those were wonderful things that were attainment of justice but no matter how much justice we attain, we never have enough.

There's something in us - this desire for the good, the true, the just, that pushes us beyond this world. This approach is called the argument from desire. You can't desire what you don't know. Therefore, if we are desiring something that transcends anything in this world, in some way, we must already know it. Therefore, we do know the truth itself; we do know the good itself; we do know justice itself… and that's who God is!

God is not one of the true things in the world, but God is the truth itself which has seized the mind of any scientist, any philosopher, any seeker after the truth.

God is not one more good thing in the world, but God is goodness itself which has seized anybody when he's living the moral life or seeking the ethically good.

God is not one more just thing in the world, but God is justice itself which has seized the will of the lawyer or the judge or anyone seeking justice.

The Bible talks about the primacy of God. When you're seeking God, the most important to realize is you've already been found by God. Remember the Russian cosmonauts who went up into space and they kind of sarcastically radioed back to earth “well, we're up in the heavens and we haven't found God.” Of course, any biblical person would know he'll never find God that way. Of course not, you don't find God anywhere in the cosmos he's made, but God is the creative source of all that exists in the cosmos. So that's one approach to God beginning with our own deep desire.

Here's a second approach and it comes from Pope [Benedict XVI] who wrote a great book in 1968 called introduction to Christianity. In that book, he formulates this argument and what I like about it is it shows the link between religion and science because very often those two are seen as enemies. He says “no, at their depth, religion and science come together.” Here's why: what does every scientist assume? Whether you're a physicist, a chemist, biologist, psychologist… whatever you are, you assume that ‘being’ is intelligible. That means that the world can be known. Even the name ‘psychology’ designates ‘logos’ (word). The scientist goes out to meet a world that's imbued with meaning.

Well how do you explain that? How do you explain the universality of the meaningfulness of the world? Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) said it's because it has been thought into being. In other words, the world is not just dumbly there. Rather, the world is filled with ‘logos’; it's filled with reason, which is why when we understand the truth, we say we “re”-cognize” it. He says, “right, you ‘re’-cognize it” (you think it again) because it's already been thought into being by God... So, he argues from the objective intelligibility of the world to the existence of a great intelligence which has thought the world into being.

Here's a third approach the philosophers and theologians have used. it's called the argument from contingency. It's a fancy way of saying that the world as we know it exists but doesn't have to exist. You and I are here but we don't have to be here; there's nothing necessary about our being. It's true the world as we know it is fleeting (it's passing). Therefore, we have to go outside the world to God. God who does exist through himself and who therefore grounds and creates the whole of the world that we know.

00Godwin:
I do believe we as atheists will not agree with the idea that it is a miracle that what I said above came into existence or always existed. I think every religionist might agree otherwise, but since it takes a miracle worker to work a miracle and to them God is the miracle worker for the big bang, the question is who is that of God?

Einstein's general theory of relativity says that all time is relative to matter. And since all matter began 13.7 billion years ago, so did all time so there's no time before the Big Bang and even if there is time before the Big Bang, even if there is a multiverse that is many universes with many big bangs as string theory says is mathematically possible, that too must have a beginning. An absolute beginning is what most people mean by God. Yet some atheists find the existence of an infinite number of other universes more rational than the existence of a creator, never mind that there is no empirical evidence at all that any of these unknown universes exists, let alone a thousand or a gazillion.

The conclusion that God exists doesn't even require faith; atheism requires faith. It takes faith to believe in everything coming from nothing. It takes only reason to believe in everything coming from God.

963AvatarSpirit:
The 3D Plane of Existence, which you call the world, is not really the whole world. I believe we have heard of Spirit World, that is also a world, but the mistake we are making in religions is believing that the Spirit world is somewhere else and physical world is here.

That is not actually how it works, both the Physical worlds (note the plural) and the spiritual worlds (note the plurals too) are all here, together, separated from each other and by membranes or veils of dimensions. It is done for wonderful reasons, if you see across the veils without being a trained mind, you could loose your senses, so leave organized religions for at least a year and research on God for a year and truth will begin to open up stage by stage.

So, about your subject of God, well, there are millions if not billions of Gods, cos God is level of awareness which is Cosmic Consciousness - fun word for awareness level of the Lord of the Sun (Sol) cos we are microcosms (Soul) of the Sun (Sol), we have plant consciousness level, animals consciousness level of awareness, so have we Humans with human level of awareness and some humans though few have achieved the God Consciousness and the associated levels of awareness. Once you have gotten to that stage, the ET/Alien/God DNA strands will be activated and your brain will generate hormanic brainwaves of that level and you will naturally pull data from Ether or Akashic Records within Sound Current Waves. At that points, ETs or Holy Spirits, Aliens or what ever fancy name you wanna call it, may be Demons or Angels (funny names) which are actually your ancestors in different costumes depending on their home planet structures will and can connect through you. That is where Channeling and all these spiritual churches prophesy and shhiit.

If you go further to the vibrational matrix, you will find Extraterrestrials and higher interdimensional entities who can come into physical reality and move higher as the wish and they are in millions too. You can also at that stage remote view, step outside your body, see through someone's eye, with capacities to mind fucck someone and even con people or use the power to invent things that help humanity. Africans prefer to channel the energy for some silly stuff instead of building rockets, in fact they open churches and start saying they communicate with God when it can be a little baby in another dimension.

So, when you mention the word like God ? What you really mean is that you are under the Mind Control Program of the Designers of the Matrix, cos they designed the 'One God' system on Earth and use such deceptions to benefit massively.

There is no need for One God, cos we are all One. We are the totality of One God in Existence seeing through different eyes. Even the ETs and few Humans can see through anyone's eye.

I wonder why One Being will enjoy seeing everything and being everything all at once. It will be pretty boring, so anyway, that is why we are on this Human experience hologram simulation hosted on some grand Computer. The One God is possible, but wont be the only Being with that possibilities attribute, cos if One Being could do it, then another can. Cos we are in this together.

You do not need any other God apart from the Spark in YOU. There are too many decoys out there. Look within, you will realize what you are. That which you find is searching for you too but you are lost in religions and newtonian sciences. You will be shocked at what you really are in your true essence if you ever realise what you are.

Always go within and fly.

Nice sounding words.

Quick question, what was there in the BEGINNING before everything or the first thing ever started to exist?

HellVictorinho:
The brain of the designer must be cracked.

Explain what you mean by that.

HellVictorinho:
Does the person you call God really give a Bleep about anyone at all?

Yes!

raptex:
It all started as a quest to know God more (I'm still on that quest).I'd pray to God to reveal himself and for the holy spirit. I started reading the bible more than before. I noticed many cringe- worthy stories but I'd brush them aside because I was taught never to question God. Our Pastors, churches and the Nigerian society at large do not encourage rational questions and thinking.

I started to use the internet more frequently.I discovered Nairaland and started reading as a guest. I'd see posts about Daddy freeze challenging respected "Men of God" on issues they avoid in church. It became clear to me that most of them are thieves. I discovered that the bible was inconsistent and full of errors. I discovered that a lot of books that expose the bible for what it is have been removed to keep people enslaved.I started reading thought- provoking posts on Nairaland. Posts from people like Hardmirror,CAPSLOCKED, Joseph1013, Seun and so on.This forum has helped me in a lot of ways.

I still go to church to please my parents and so as not to arouse suspicion. I see Church these days only as a center for comic relief.

Don't be misled, raptex. Use your brain and follow the truth wherever it leads you. But I'll advise you to ask a lot of questions. In this adventure of truth-seeking, don't even pull/hold back what is in your mind. Infact, when 99% of your questions have been answered but one seems unclear or shady, don't assume it's as good as the 99%. That might just be the one (big) lie that will discredit the whole pack.

Note: you will hear different things from Christians of different denominations which could confuse you the more.
Also, watch out for confirmation bias. You can't afford to lie to yourself.

Ask questions

Listen/pay attention

Ask a follow up.

I want to focus not on the evidence for God’s existence, but on the benefits of belief.

If God exists, then the world didn't just evolve by chance, but by deliberate design. There's an Artist behind this incredible work of art, this big, and beautiful world.

If God exists, we're living in a great story, an epic like "The Lord of the Rings," with real heroes and heroic tasks. Ultimately, all the twists and turns of this epic narrative will be paid off, everything will make sense. It will even have a happy ending, not necessarily, or even likely, in our own lifetime - even Moses didn’t get into the Promised Land - but over the grand course of time in an afterlife, which exists as surely as God exists.

If God exists, the presence of evil, hard as it is to accept, makes sense. God allows it for a reason, namely, to preserve our free will. And God will reconcile all injustices in the end.

If there is no God, life is one big crapshoot. If God does exist, morality is a real, objective feature of the world. If there is no God, morality is just the rules we make up for this little game of life we play.

If God exists, love is the nature of an eternal reality. If there is no God, love is just a fleeting feeling, no more than a bunch of chemical and neurological interactions.

If God exists, you are of infinite value. He knows you as a parent knows his child. He’s accessible to you. If there is no God, each of us is as insignificant as a rock on an unknown planet.

If God exists, death is conquered because if there is a God there is a reality outside of space and time. If there is no God, there is nothing immortal, and all the good things in life are destroyed forever. You, and everyone you love, and everything you think matters are all consigned to oblivion. If there is no God, life is pointless. Everything we’ve done and lived for will ultimately be in vain.

Can I prove with an absolute certainty that God exists? I can make the case that overwhelming evidence suggests that he does. But no I can’t prove that He exists with absolute certainty. That’s likely part of His plan. God deliberately doesn't give us absolute proof so that we're free to choose or not to choose to believe in Him.

So which way do you want to go? Be honest. Doesn't your heart at least hope that there is a good God, a transcendent validator of love and all the highest human values? Of course it does. Why would anyone not wish that life has some ultimate purpose, that good and evil are real, that there is ultimate justice, that our love for others means something?

If you choose to live as if there is a God, even if you are not sure there is a God, you lose nothing and you gain everything. According to the findings of multitude of scientific studies, religious Christians and Jews are happier, live longer, and are more charitable than their less observant or secular fellow citizens.

If you have been an atheist for a while, it may be difficult for you to change your thinking, even if you find some merit in the many rational arguments for God’s existence. But you can change your behavior. You can live as if God exists, even if you hold doubts. Why not? As I said, you lose nothing and you have everything to gain. This behavioral approach is far from new. The Jews have long had a saying, “We will do, and we will understand,” which acknowledges that action often precedes understanding.

So why not begin with an action? Why not pray the prayer of the skeptic? "God, if you exist, you must know that I'm not a believer. So, please, God, give me the gift of faith, in your time and in your way. I want to believe whatever is true. Amen.” If you say that and mean it, and give it some time, be prepared, because He will not ignore that prayer.
- Peter Kreeft, philosophy professor at Boston College

HellVictorinho:
Yes,it met your qualifications.
Not mine.

You said the following, not me.

HellVictorinho:
If it is a being,it must be active as a being who recognizes the fact that humans are beings who deserve to be cut some slack.

HellVictorinho:
No,it's not.

Yes, t is because it met the condition you posed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zMf_8hkCdc

Who God is and who God isn't.

I'll provide transcript of the video if anyone needs it..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zMf_8hkCdc

HellVictorinho
LordReed.

HellVictorinho:
If it is a being,it must be active as a being who recognizes the fact that humans are beings who deserve to be cut some slack.

I totally agree! So, it's a being.

LordReed:
Doesn't matter, it is still an appeal to intuition.

No, it matters because none of the arguments (approaches) is bereft of pure objective reasoning. You also haven't explained where and how you think the intuition came into play.

HellVictorinho:
And I hope you know this phenomenon can't be personified.
It Functions but it doesn't intend/think.
What you call 'Intelligence' is just one of your features as a human being.
No human lacks intelligence.
Animals are lower because they lack this intelligence.
There is no intelligence/purpose behind 'Existence'.
Man is an expression of pre-determined absurdity.

I don't know what you mean by "Can't" because the personification is our next line of discuss, since I was only focused on getting us on the same page of recognizing there's an 'uncaused cause'. Further argument will now focus on us finding out if the 'uncaused cause' could also be termed the 'uncaused being'.

LordReed:
one of my favorites is the approach that begins with desire.

So that's one approach to God beginning with our own deep desire.

“I felt a gratitude that was so enormous that I knew it would correspond to nothing in this world.” There was nothing/nobody in this world she could possibly thank that would correspond to the gratitude she was feeling. That's it! that's exactly it! What she was sensing was “God!

Sorry, I was in a rush and did not notice you cut the last part of the quote. The full expression was "God! this world, myself, my child… none of it has to be here, yet it's here.” The "God" part was an expression of emotion or emphasis. My original post was "Gawd", then I modified with "God", and then removed the expression... I realized from the beginning it could be easily misconstrued.

I hope you understand it now.