italo:


Is that what you understand by my post?

italo:
You didnt teach so but you probably thought so...until I showed you Romans 2.

Now can you show me proof of where I lied? Or is it the usual case of accusation without proof?

I actually feel for you.

St. Paul has absolutely single-handedly destroyed you that the only reply you can muster is "liar" "liar" even without proof of any lie.

Lol.

italo:

mediate[ v. mee-dee-eyt; adj. mee-dee-it ]verb (used with object)
1. to settle (disputes, strikes, etc.) as an intermediary between parties; reconcile.
2. to bring about (an agreement, accord, truce, peace, etc.) as an intermediary between parties by compromise, reconciliation, removal of misunderstanding, etc.
3. to effect (a result) or convey (a message, gift, etc.) by or as if by an intermediary.

Christians do all of these so they are mediators. Period!

italo:

mediate[ v. mee-dee-eyt; adj. mee-dee-it ]verb (used with object)
1. to settle (disputes, strikes, etc.) as an intermediary between parties; reconcile.
2. to bring about (an agreement, accord, truce, peace, etc.) as an intermediary between parties by compromise, reconciliation, removal of misunderstanding, etc.
3. to effect (a result) or convey (a message, gift, etc.) by or as if by an intermediary.

Christians do all of these so they are mediators. Period!

italo:
If you show me...and tell whether you called
me a liar or not when I said Paul suffered to
make up for what was lacking in Christ...and
tell if you were aware that Romans 2 taught
what I say it taught before I showed you or
not...and tell whether you knew that the
Holy Spirit could speak through someone in
error before I showed you Caiaphas or not... I
will agree.

italo:
2 Cor 1:6

italo:
It is not mere Bible history.
If you said the Bible was compiled in the 4th
century by the Church in Rome, it means
you're saying the deuterocanonical books are
inspired.
That is clearly a teaching on faith.
I see that you are trying desperately to flee
from your infalibility claim. You have seen it
fail so badly. Lol.

italo:
While I search for the evidence, what did you
mean when you said you were infallible?

italo:

Is that what you can comprehend from my post?

italo:
The teaching that only people who believe what you believe will be saved...is a lie.

Sharpen you critical reasoning skills.


.

italo:


The person can misunderstand or misinterprete the teaching of the Holy Spirit .

And the Holy Spirit can speak through someone or an animal or a rock without "teaching" them.

Like it or not, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

italo:
That the teaching that only those who believe like adsonstone and Chris Okotie will be saved...is a lie.

That is what Romans 2 means.

italo:

LMAO! Back for more "knocks."

St. Paul has something to say, not me.

2 Cor 1:6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and SALVATION.

italo:
Well, you have prove to us that the Holy Spirit has changed the meaning of the English word "mediate."

italo:

Then prove me and the Catholic Church frauds by showing everyone where the Catholic Church said "God WILL save Muslims" and not "God can save."

This will show if I and the Catholic Church are frauds...or you and Deeper Life Church.

italo:
I never said "men redeem men." If you insist I did, simply quote where I said so.

italo:
Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 

Simple as ABC!

italo:

Will you agree that you are one of those who teach false doctrines and ascribe it to the Holy Spirit if I take the trouble to dig up the evidence?

try69:


How__to_catch_a_ christian liar 101

italo:
The person doesn't necessarily become infallible. The Holy Spirit can speak through the High priest, a donkey or even fire. It doesn't mean they understand it, much less teaching it.

Infallibility entails the totality of revealed truths.

Anyone can speak a truth even without the influence of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't make them infallible on any matter.
Oh! At least you have finally shown you've learnt one thing from me: that the Holy Spirit can speak through one who is in error on other truths of faith and morals.

However, the Church, unlike Caiaphas cannot teach error on any matter of faith and morals. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

italo:
That the teaching that only people who believe like you and Chris Okotie will be saved is a lie.

italo:


Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

italo:
Christ's priesthood is mediatory. Anyone who shares in it shares in mediation.

Praying to God for a man is mediation between God and man.

italo:
Another LIE!

Show me where the Catholic Church says "God will save" and not "God can save."

italo:
And you didn't know it until I showed you...and it took you ages to acknowledge it. At some point you were even saying I was misinterpreting Rom 2.

italo:
I never said "men redeem men." And you haven't shown me where I said that.

italo:
...And any co-worker with God's work is a co-redeemer

italo:
Paul says he and his associates suffer for our
salvation i.e (by your very poor logical
application) they save - redeem us.

italo:
Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Direct your questions to St. Paul and the Holy Spirit.

italo:
You claimed to be infallible.

You claimed to be always right when you interprete scripture or teach on matters of faith and morals.

You were wrong when you taught about the Bible.

It means you lied...as is your custom.

And while you taught wrong, you made us believe you were certain of what you were saying since you were being guided by the Holy Spirit...as you're doing now.

You just proved that you're just one of those who teach false doctrine and say it's the Holy Spirit.

Remember what happens to those who sin against the Holy Spirit.

POPE II: I like the way we knock u but you keep coming back

italo:

It is a travesty to only question Catholics.

POPE II: Yawns

I like your spirit tho ..keep trying

italo:

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth! Twist it all you want.



The Holy Spirit can speak one truth or more through someone who is in error in other matters.

You didn't know this until I told you of Caiaphas...acknowledge it.

italo:

It is not my assumptions. Romans 2 shows that the teaching that only people who believe what adsonstone and Chris Okotie believe will be saved is wrong.

italo:

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 

No be me write am for Holy Spirit.

italo:
If I pray to God on your behalf, I have mediated between you and God. The grammar and logic are as simple as ABC for any being with even an iota of honesty...but you make it seem difficult.

Christ's priesthood is mediatory! Who shares in it shares in mediation. Shikena!

italo:
Paul knows that God can save people who dont believe in Jesus. The Pope knows too.

italo:
You haven't shown where I said "man redeems man."

Why do you keep telling lies against me? Why the desperation?

italo:
St. Paul saw himself as God's co-worker. And since God's work on earth was to redeem man and mediate between man and God,Paul was co-redeemer and co-mediator.

italo:
Paul says he and his associates suffer for our
salvation i.e (by your very poor logical
application) they save - redeem us.

italo:
So any "co-worker" is a "co-redeemer.

italo:
Oh! You mean the writer of Col 1:24 was a Buddhist?

italo:
And the Holy Spirit says pray and suffer for the salvation of men. That is mediation. I believe the Holy Spirit on both accounts.

italo:
Wait a minute! I thought you were infallible. The Holy Spirit deserted you then?.

4C2215131: Been following the arguments of these gentlemen. Well,from an intellectual standpoint without recourse to emotions,bias,and 'denominational bigotry' I daresay the onus is more on the catholics to elucidate further their points. Same thing applies to the opposition as I see a lot of contextual misinterpretation of scriptures,lack of proper biblical exegesis and more of eisegesis coupled with a flagrant dis-regard to the principle of hermeneutics.

Bottom line,there has been a lot of semantic maneuvering from both sides in other to score a point. Would want to ask the permission of the original thread owners to allow a brother make a submission now and then...un-biased,devoid of insult,and dispassionate of course.

try69:

Some of your protestant preachers got confused by how paul preached the Gospel, they thought he preached the opposite of christ's preaching. But no, paul's Gospel was a hard complement of what christ's teaching were..abi you want to be the next luther and remove paul's words from the Bible?

You don't want me to start, italo already schooled you on what the church revealed. That's my position, that's italo's position, that's the Church's position.. Open your heart bro

John 10:34
Jesus answered "it is written in your own law that God said, 'you are gods.'

italo:
'Men suffer for the salvation of men.'--The Holy Spirit.

'Paul suffers to make up for what is lacking in the suffering of Christ.'--The Holy Spirit.

italo:
Christ's priesthood is mediatory. If you share in it, you share in the mediatory role.

If I pray to God for you, I have mediated between you and God.

All Christians are mediators.

italo:
'The misinterpretation is: only people that believe what adsonstone believes will be saved.'--Romans 2

italo:
LIE! Show me where.

italo:
Anyway, all the Church fathers were Catholic. Including these 2 who refer to Mary as Madiatrix.

italo:
It was you who said "The Bible was compiled by the Church in Rome (probably Catholic) in the 4th century"

Not "my" or "your," but "The Bible."

The statement speaks for itself.

try69:

Try69 = italo = The Holy Catholic Church

Co-workers



2 Thes 2:15
Hold to the traditions which were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

try69: The same people who want to see everything verbatim in the Bible are the same people now using their own traditions to argue against the same Bible.. Wonder what they call hypocrisy

italo:

The Holy Spirit is available to all human beings...and he tells all of us: "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth!"

italo:
Truth is not manufactured by anyone. TRUTH JUST IS! And "the Church is its pillar and foundation," says the Holy Spirit.

italo:
Caiaphas. He was in error, yet the Holy Spirit spoke through him.

You need to read the Bible more with an open mind.

Now I know you will not give up but look for another irrelevant question to help you avoid the truth. - clutching at straws.

italo:
That is what the Holy Spirit thinks. He is the one who inspired Romans 2.

You need to read your Bible more with an open mind...and succumb to truth when you see it, not try to clutch at straws to avoid it.

italo:
God's work is redemption of mankind. It is you that alluded to that.

italo:
So any "co-worker" is a "co-redeemer."

italo:
Christians suffer for the salvation of mankind. It is the Holy Spirit that says so.

Why can't you just put your pre-conceived error aside and believe him?

Who said Paul was God's "co-worker?" The Holy Spirit, not human traditions.

italo:
Who said humans suffer to save mankind? The Holy Spirit, not human traditions.

Who said Paul completes what is lacking in the suffering of Christ (for redemption)? The Holy Spirit, not Human tradition.

italo:
The lesson you should learn from that is that Christ being the sole High priest doesnt stop Christians from sharing in his priesthood.

But you have completely avoided that and refused to acknowledge it...and are now bent on diverting to another topic. Clutching at straws!

If you cannot acknowledge that simple principle, there's no need to discuss other issues with you.

You'll just keep hopping to other topics when you are disproved, instead of accepting the truth.

italo:
Paul encourages his readers to participate in Christ's suffering in the future.

Why?

The Holy Spirit says Christians suffer for the salvation of mankind.

You can twist it all you want.

italo:
1. How do you know the Holy Spirit never says there's another? I thought you believed the Holy Spirit teaches everyone personally. Do you know what He teaches the other billions of people who have lived on earth?

Your whole theology just has no legs to stand on.

italo:
2. The Holy Spirit actually teaches that we are all mediators because He teaches us to pray and suffer to bring men closer to God.

That is MEDIATING! At least to any honest person.

italo:
Oh! So Cyril of Alexandria and Ephem of Syria are now "Roman Catholic Church Fathers?"

These were the same people you were trying desperately to claim belonged to the universal Church, not Roman when we showed you they were the ones who compiled the Bible.

So when they compile the Bible, they are Eastern Orthodox but when they say Mary is Mediatrix, they are Roman Catholic?

This is gross hypocrisy to say the least.

italo:

Yes. Is that a crime?

italo:

Is it the Catholic Church that made Paul a "co-worker" with God? No. It was God

Is it the Catholic Church that alluded to the fact that God's work on earth was redemption and mediation on this thread? No. It was you.

italo:
Jesus is the sole high priest but all Christians share in his priesthood.

Jesus is the only Son of God, yet we are all sons of God.

Jesus is the only High Priest, yet we all share his priesthood.

italo:

Which yeye study? Why not show me the Bible verses that say that our only part of the labour is preaching?

1Pet 4:13 says "But rejoice insofar as you are sharing Christ’s sufferings, so that you may also be glad and shout for joy when his glory is revealed."

And "suffering" there wasn't talking about preaching.

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Did you see that?

2 Cor 1:5, 6 For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ. 6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation; if we are being consoled, it is for your consolation, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we are also suffering.

Did you see that?! Paul suffered for your salvation...and it wasn't mere "preaching."

RCC says she's a co-redemtrix contrary to the Holy Spirit



I seriously dont know what your problem is. I am beginning to think it is plain hatred and envy.

Jesus is the only one who "worked"(redeemed/saved us), yet Paul says he is a "co-worker" and he suffered for our salvation.

italo:
What else is your problem with our co-redemptrix?

Even the Church Fathers saw Mary as Mediatrix.

"Hail, Mary Mother of God, venerable treasure of the whole world . . . it is you through whom the Holy Trinity is glorified and adored . . . through whom the tempter, the devil is cast down from heaven, through whom the fallen creature is raised up to heaven, through whom all creation, once imprisoned by idolatry, has reached knowledge of the truth, through whom nations are brought to repentance. Cyril of Alexandria (qtd. in Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought)

Ephrem the Syrian says, "With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world";

Antipater of Bostra, a father of the Council of Ephesus, wrote about the Blessed Virgin in the fifth century, "Hail, you who acceptably intercede as Mediatrix for mankind" (qtd. in Gambero, Mary and the Fathers).

italo:
Jesus was talking to the Apostles - the leaders of his Church. And the Holy Spirit confirmed what I'm saying when he came. He said "The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth."

I dont know what you're still fighting for.

italo:
Jesus, his teachings, his death and resurrection, God etc.

italo:
The Holy Spirit can act on/through people in error. THIS IS TRUE!

The working of the Holy Spirit on/through an individual is not proof that the person is not in error. THIS IS TRUE!

italo:
You said that, not me.

All I know is that I have already thrashed that rubbish view that only those who believe what you believe are heaven-bound.

There is no need to clutch at straws.

italo:

You're losing the plot.

Read the definition of the Catholic Church...then let us have your issues with it.

It's no use discussing what you see as disparities between my definition and Syncan's.

Is it hard for you to read about what you're criticizing?

italo: 1 Cor 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Haphazard-thinking anti-Catholic sees that St. Paul wrote something, yet he desperately tries to make it look like a Catholic 'invention.'

Well...if St. Paul sounds so Catholic, it's because he is Catholic!

italo:

Are you still ready to talk about Catholic doctrine?

Do you want to provide the teaching of infallibility as stated by any reputable Catholic source?

Let us see what you are challenging.

Read...read before you challenge.

italo:
I dont know about that. Show me where the Bible says that.

italo:
That is a broad question. The truth is many things. What matters to me now is that The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (whatever "the truth" means).

italo:
It is the Holy Spirit that said so.

So you also believe it is possible for God to save people who are in error. If he can do that, then the Holy Spirit acting on/through someone is not a guarantee that he is not in error. Do we agree on this?

italo:
I have already given proof of this from Romans 2 and destroyed what appeared to be your earlier thinking that only people who believe what you believe will be saved.

italo:
You see that even St. Paul saw himself as God's co-worker. And since God's work on earth was to redeem man and mediate between man and God, Paul was co-redeemer and co-mediator.

italo:

1 Cor 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building

italo:
What else is your problem with Catholics calling Mary "co-redemtrix?"

italo:

The doctrine of infallibility has nothing to do with matters outside doctrinal matters of faith and morals.

The very definition of infallibility by the Church provides that the matter is one of faith and morals.

Simple and short!

Do you want anything else before you answer me?

italo: Ask the OP to show biblical proof of his statement!