₦airaland Forum

italo: Any statement that doesn't mention heaven is ambiguous?

Do you even know what the pope was talking about?

What kinda question is the bold?

The ambiguity of a statement is in relation to the subject of the discourse.

In relation to the issue the Pope was addressing- forgiveness of people that do not believe in God and what sin is to them, without mentioning "heaven" or saying anything about it makes it ambiguous.

Here's the original letter.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/letters/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130911_eugenio-scalfari.html

...and here's an English translation of it.

m.repubblica.it/mobile/r/sezioni/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/?ref=search&mfil=1

Here are reports from Catholic sources and general media considering the statement.

www.catholicvote.org/atheists-can-go-to-heaven-did-pope-francis-say-something-new/

www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

I've pointed out what I meant...and I hope there's nothing else.

italo: Jesus had a focal point as the Pope had a focal point. Jesus words can easily be misconstrued just like the Pope's words.


Now can you answer these questions on second attempt?

Where did Jesus clarify his statement?

And did you bother to read the Pope's full statement to see if he clarified?

Did the Pope ever mention "heaven" or say anything about it in the statement?

Jesus' preceding Statement.

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered.

Statement in question.

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the
kingdom of God ahead of you.

Next, Jesus said;


32 "For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.
And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him...

43 “...therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."


The subsequent statement(s) was to show exactly what Jesus said in the parable-repentant sinners are more likely to make Heaven than rebellious believers, fruitful strangers are preferred to unfruitful
sons.

When you study, pay attention to details.


....and yes, I did read the Pope's speech in full and there was no sort of clarification (within the speech)...though the media and some other Priests tried to explain what He really meant...and that's where the disagreement is. Also, He did not mention Heaven---and that makes the statement more ambiguous. You disagree?

italo: The problem is that you didn't care to know the Pope's focal point...but jumped unto ctiticizing him because he's the Pope...he's Catholic.

...and now, you have cooked up a reason for me for 'criticizing' the pope.

Congratulations.

italo: You have suddenly shifted the goal post.

First, your reason for criticizing the pope was that his statement could be misconstrued by Atheists. Now that I pointed it out that you were only being biased since even Jesus statement can be misconstrued, you come up with a different reason...'lack of explanation.'

Common! We both know the Pope did or said nothing wrong. You're just too biased and arrogant to admit that your criticism was misplaced.

Else...

Where did Jesus clarify his statement?

And did you bother to read the Pope's full statement to see if he clarified?

Did the Pope ever mention "heaven" or say anything about it in the statement?

There's no 'shifting the goal post' there.
That's not a different reason, it is just to buttress the point.

....and I'm not denying that the Pope wasn't wrong.

C'mon, you know how such statement can be taken especially when He wasn't specific on Heaven or elsewhere...and that makes it more ambiguous.

Jesus taught in parables but was specific/had a focal point...you disagree?

Jesus often made 'controversial' statements...but still had a focal point.

italo: I'd be glad to listen to the audio, how cam you send it. Thanks for the effort.

Jesus said prostitutes and tax collectors are in heaven. This could also be misconstrued by sinners.

Do you see that Papa Franciscum is only following his Master?

I don't see you criticize the Master.

Why should I?
Jesus taught in parables and clarifies his messages using another parable or other means....just like he did when He made that statement and some may still choose to misunderstand though.

The simple message was that repentant sinners are more likely to make heaven than rebellious believers...which he explained.

....and for the audio message, I can mail it to you.

italo: Why then did you criticize the Pope?

And if I may ask, is the above deeper life teaching? If it is, where is it documented? If it isnt, why not?

My 'criticism' of the Pope's statement is not because it is untrue, of course, it was true...however, it was capable of misleading Atheists to believing that they'll definitely be saved/make heaven if they do good works.

...and yes, that is the Church's teaching on atheism and other religions.
Usually, the Church teachings are kept in the Church records within the Church (I dunno if it's available online though), but I have an audio message where this is taught extensively...if you care to have it, I can send it to you.

meryl4merit: Thanks dear...

You're welcome.

The IASs that have been issued till date are listed below.

IAS 1 Presentation of Financial Statements (2007)

IAS 2 Inventories (2005)

IAS 3 Consolidated Financial Statements
(Superseded in 1989 by IAS 27 and IAS 28 1976)

IAS 4 Depreciation Accounting
(Withdrawn in 1999)

IAS 5 Information to Be Disclosed in Financial
Statements (Superseded by IAS 1 effective 1 July 1998 1976)

IAS 6 Accounting Responses to Changing Prices (Superseded by IAS 15, which was withdrawn December 2003)

IAS 7 Statement of Cash Flows (1992)

IAS 8 Accounting Policies, Changes in Accounting Estimates and Errors (2003)

IAS 9 Accounting for Research and Development Activities
(Superseded by IAS 38 effective 1 July 1999)

IAS 10 Events After the Reporting Period (2003)

IAS 11 Construction Contracts (1993)
(Will be superseded by IFRS 15 as of 1 January
2017)

IAS 12 Income Taxes (1996)

IAS 13 Presentation of Current Assets and Current Liabilities
(Superseded by IAS 39 effective 1 July 1998)

IAS 14 Segment Reporting (1997)
(Superseded by IFRS 8 effective 1 January 2009)

IAS 15 Information Reflecting the Effects of Changing Prices (2003)
(Withdrawn December 2003)

IAS 16 Property, Plant and Equipment (2003)

IAS 17 Leases (2003)

IAS 18 Revenue (1993)
(Will be superseded by IFRS 15 as of 1 January
2017)

IAS 19 Employee Benefits (1998)
Superseded by IAS 19 (2011) effective 1 January 2013

IAS 19 Employee Benefits (2011)

IAS 20 Accounting for Government Grants and Disclosure of Government Assistance (1983)

IAS 21 The Effects of Changes in Foreign Exchange Rates (2003)

IAS 22 Business Combinations
(Superseded by IFRS 3 effective 31 March 2004)

IAS 23 Borrowing Costs (2007)

IAS 24 Related Party Disclosures (2009)

IAS 25 Accounting for Investments
(Superseded by IAS 39 and IAS 40 effective 2001)

IAS 26 Accounting and Reporting by Retirement Benefit Plans (1987)

IAS 27 Consolidated and Separate Financial Statements (2003)
(Superseded by IFRS 10, IFRS 12 and IAS 27
(2011) effective 1 January 2013)

IAS 28 Investments in Associates and Joint Ventures (2011)

IAS 28 Investments in Associates (2003)
(Superseded by IAS 28 (2011) and IFRS 12
effective 1 January 2013)

IAS 29 Financial Reporting in Hyperinflationary
Economies (1989)

IAS 30 Disclosures in the Financial Statements of Banks and Similar Financial Institutions (1990)
(Superseded by IFRS 7 effective 1 January 2007)

IAS 31 Interests In Joint Ventures (2003)
Superseded by IFRS 11 and IFRS 12 effective 1 January 2013

IAS 32 Financial Instruments: Presentation (2003)

IAS 33 Earnings Per Share (2003)

IAS 34 Interim Financial Reporting (1998)

IAS 35 Discontinuing Operations (1998)
(Superseded by IFRS 5 effective 1 January 2005)

IAS 36 Impairment of Assets (2004)

IAS 37 Provisions, Contingent Liabilities and Contingent Assets (1998)

IAS 38 Intangible Assets (2004)

IAS 39 Financial Instruments: Recognition and
Measurement (2003)
(Superseded by IFRS 9 where IFRS 9 is applied)

IAS 40 Investment Property (2003)

IAS 41 Agriculture


The IFRSs in issue are

IFRS 1 First-time Adoption of International Financial Reporting Standards (2008)

IFRS 2 Share-based Payment (2004)

IFRS 3 Business Combinations (2008)

IFRS 4 Insurance Contracts (2004)

IFRS 5 Non-current Assets Held for Sale and
Discontinued Operations (2004)

IFRS 6 Exploration for and Evaluation of Mineral Assets (2004)

IFRS 7 Financial Instruments: Disclosures (2005)

IFRS 8 Operating Segments (2006)

IFRS 9 Financial Instruments (2013)

IFRS 10 Consolidated Financial Statements (2011)

IFRS 11 Joint Arrangements (2011)

IFRS 12 Disclosure of Interests in Other Entities (2011)

IFRS 13 Fair Value Measurement (2011)

IFRS 14 Regulatory Deferral Accounts (2014)

IFRS 15 Revenue from Contracts with Customers (2014)


www.iasplus.com/en/standards

...I'll do a brief summary on each of them if you want me to.

You may also visit the link to read on them.

italo: You think such people can't make heaven?

Why not?

They can...

...but only God ultimately knows if they will or not.

italo: You once criticized the Pope for saying "Atheists can go to heaven." No?

When I had to show you Romans 2 to corroborate his point.



Many Protestant leaders are heretics. They know the truth yet obstinately persist in error. Some of the congregation too.

I can defend my statement in any 'tribunal.'

I can remember I once 'criticized' the Pope for saying 'Atheists can go to Heaven...if they follow their consciences, live right and maintain good works.' (Re-phrased)

On that thread, I pointed it out that the sole way of getting to Heaven/The Father (as far as the bible records) was only through Jesus...and I cited Acts 4:12 and John 14:6...and not just as the Pope said. Also, if Romans 2 was talking about 'making Heaven by doing good works,' then it contradicts the passages I cited.

However I also mentioned that Atheists may earn salvation/make Heaven in ways known solely to God....and in all, I never said they were all going to Hell.

italo: Anyone can do good, even Atheists. Because we are all redeemed, though not all saved.

Anyone who follows/claims to follow God/religion and does good as a result has done God/religion proud...even though he/she might still be in error. Was the good Samaritan a Jew or Christian before he could make Jesus proud?

Don't get too excited that I mentioned a Protestant. There are Catholic saints who gave their lives so that others may live. E.g Maximillian Kolbe.

A heretic is one who obstinately persists in heresy. I have no evidence that Mary Slessor did so...or that all Protestants do so.

I challenge you to quote me saying "all Protestants are heretics." You cant! Because I never say so. Majority of them are just innocently fooled by their greedy and proud heretic leaders/ministers/pastors.

We Catholics dont condemn everyone to hell, like some of you Protestants. Remember ChrisOkotie and the like.

Humans generally can do good...because they have the inherent (God-
given) ability to do good, not because we are all redeemed.

Before our redemption, many have done good and made God proud eg Rahab....and after the Redemption, many still do good eg Mary Slessor.


I, personally, do not condemn anyone to hell..saved or unsaved, Christian or Non-Christian...you may provide evidence if you believe I do.

However, I never declared that you said 'all Protestants are heretics.' My statement says you 'often tag Protestants/Presbyterians heretics' just as you have done about their leaders.

italo: Many have...true. Many have also done God and religion proud...like Mary Slessor who stopped your pagan ancestors from killing twins in Calabar and environs.

Mary Slessor, a 'Protestant' infact, 'Presbyterian' (a group of Christians which you often tag 'heretic') did God and religion proud.

Thank God you affirmed that.

The accounting standards, IAS(International Accounting Standards) and the more recent IFRS (International Financial Reporting Standards) are (simply) guidelines for the preparation of financial statements.

The objective of the IAS/IFRS is to
provide a single universal framework by which
companies can prepare, display, and
disclose their financial statements.

Presently, there are 15 IFRS in issue and 41 IAS (though some have been withdrawn and some others have been superseded by the IFRS in issue).




Accounting Students/Accountants (especially Financial Accountants or students who wan to specialize in financial accounting) should have a good knowledge of these standards because they are 'tools' to be used for the preparation of financial statements of companies for public use.

I'll try to explain each of the IAS and IFRS in subsequent posts.

Feel free to ask any question is you have any.

Following.

Perhaps, I'll contribute...if need be.



Thanks for the invite, Italo.

PastorOluT: So on point, I use to think when one don't believe
in a thing he will be indifferent whatsoever? But
not for our NL so called atheists.
'Edited'
Wow, I just realized its u I quoted, first time I am
agreeing with u on this forum. That's to show u
ow sincere I am in my discourse with u while u
seem to be always prejudiced.

italo: Keyword: "seem."

It is good to know that we agree on something.

However, if you want me to test your sincerity, can I ask you questions on a new thread?

It would be perfectly fine if you dont want the trouble.

I'd love to see that thread and I look forward to seeing it.

@Op,

What do you understand by 'The Bible?'

Siri says "Argentina has a better record than Germany."
That's obviously false.


Cortana all the way!

Je ne fais que suivre.

Still learning French though.

Evestar200: true, Auchi poly was ranked 2nd best institution in Nigeria last year and if am not mistaken it was d 12 best institution in Africa and also the best poly in Africa follow by Namibia poly. And if u are talking abt ranking, unilag is no where near top cuz schools like OAU, uniben, Auchi, Unilorin, UNN, UI,AAU are ranked above unilag

You were not informed too?

www.4icu.org/ng/


That's the official world-wide universities' ranking.
Educate yourself.

He stood in the most probable position Messi would have played it cos playing over a wall is not as easy as curling it around the wall.
Also, He must have expected the wall to jump which they didn't.

chukwudi44: i Pity folks who say baptism is not necesary.

No one (on this thread) says baptism is not necessary, what the point has been is that baptism is not being born again ie born of spirit and water.

chukwudi44: Why on earth do you think Jesus was baptised?

do u really think Jesus became born again when He was baptized?

chukwudi44: Born again was clearly defined by Jesus

1 born by water-baptism

2 born by the spirit

What is so difficult to understand here? Where does it describe the verbal proclamation of faith as been born again? Even right from the early years of christianity baptism has always been synonymous with born againism.it was only after the advent of pentecostalism almost two millenium later that the idea of verbal proclamation of faith(done daily in catholic chhurch) was taken as been born again.

It has been synonymous with being born again because it has something to do with being born again... (Water) Baptism is not being born again in itself......and as you rightly said exactly as Jesus defined: born again = Born of water, Born of spirit.....and not as Italo generalized that born.again=being baptized.

The bone of contention is now
what is 'born of water'?
..and what is 'born of Spirit'?

italo: To be born again is to be baptized (born of water and Spirit)...shikena.

It is not to go in front of the "church" and say "bla bla"

is this the rcc's definition of baptism?

State how (water) baptism is that of the Spirit.

italo: To be born again is to be baptized (born of water and Spirit)...shikena.

It is not to go in front of the "church" and say "bla bla"

says Italo, not Jesus.

italo: To be born again is to be baptized (born of water and Spirit)...shikena.

It is not to go in front of the "church" and say "bla bla"

how hard is it for a roman catholic to comprehend the words of Christ.

Will you like your partner to do exactly the same thing your doing with his 'best (female) friend'......and they'll both be enjoying it?

Not Nomski0.....she knows quite a lot about soccer.

,

rudedough: Your types are the Christians who will advocate for a new thread, and later run away when you realize that an Atheist know a lot more than you do about your bible and religion.

Have you read your bible thoroughly? I don't mean memorizing bible verses, i mean reading your bible thoroughly before you engage an Atheist in a religious debate?

Debate?

We're not debating here. Its a dialogue.

However, the 'bible subject' is out.
I never even mentioned bible/religion.

All I said was God, Science, Logic/(critical) reasoning.


If you are interested, open one and invite me.

SIR ANDREWS: why don't you open a thread and explain the concept of god

What I requested is 'a thread for a dialogue'...not just on the subject of God (which I believe in) but also on science (that atheists rely on) and logic.


There we'll discuss, ask questions and also reason out things with an open mind.


My reason for not wanting to be the opener is simply because I'd prefer it to be a dialogue started by atheists.

You may go open one SIR.

@OP;

Of course I believe your mum has a reason for believing there's a God which she wants you to see and she's not 'deluded' as atheists see theists.

Since you have once been a theist and you did not see those reasons/find them worthy, I think you should not just pretend to be one because it is of no use and besides, it won't make a difference perhaps, it will make things worse in the long-run
.


@ other Atheists,
I think you haven't still understood the concept of a God who wasn't created but created all things.



P.S.
Atheists, Open a thread and invite me for a dialogue.

I'll text you.

Kamsy10: You think I have time for foolishness?

Incase you dont know, It's very shameful indeed how you people hide behind the keyboard to bash Catholic Church but when you're asked to say your church,you start long stories. Chai
Somebody will post Catholics are hell bound but when you ask the heavenly church he/she attends(so we too can join) , they start stammering.

It's not enough to spew trash about Catholic Church, tell us your church. How hard is it?
This is really unbelievable

I ALWAYS ask that question and you guys abandon the thread. Anyway you might even be the same person cos I've seen it all on this nl

Either way,I dare you to mention your church

Someone thinks I'm here to play.

How funny.

SMH