₦airaland Forum

Nihilstjnr:
Those guys are comparing Legacies, not pitting two fighters against each other.

Obviously Ali will have the greater Legacy because of the the fighters he fought in his era, what he acheieved and his status as a cultural icon.

But if they bring Prime Ali vs Prime Tyson, nothing like rope-a-dope, or sting like a butterfly nonsense. Tyson would beat Ali back into reclaiming Cassius Clay

They were not comparing legacy. They were comparing prime quality to prime quality in a fight. Wetin concern such boxing purists with legacy when judging best heavyweight, most powerful punch e.t.c? It was explicitly stated that they were comparing prime quality for prime quality.

Tyson was great against bums and decent fighters, but let it not be like i am running the great man down. He was great but definitely not number1, 2 or even 3.
Please you have not answered. Which great fighter did Tyson beat in that fighter's prime?

Nihilstjnr:
1988 Tyson that beat both Spinks and Larry Holmes would have killed any goddam person.

I'm telling you this as someone who has worn gloves at least once.

That Ali style of Dancing around while Jabbing from range does not work on dogged inside fighters. We saw how Frazier beat Ali almost within an inch of his life TWICE. Tyson was Frazier on steroids.

1988 Tyson's defence was so hard that you just knew that there was no way you could land a punch without chopping two body shots in quick return.

88 Tyson was GOD

Larry Holmes was 39yrs old and way way past his prime, Michael Spinks was a barely decent heavyweight in a poor quality era where Witherspoon, Bonecrusher Smith, Fat Trevor Berbick and co were champions.
First time Tyson met quality he folded. When Stoke face York city you think dey sabi but when they face Real Madrid you know say shoe get size. Tyson beat some decent fighters and lots of bums, at the first sign of adversity and legendary quality he folded like a canopy.

You were at best an amateur boxer. Hall of fame heavyweight champions, Hall of fame analysts and journalists all agree that Ali was better than Tyson, put some respek on Cassius Clay's name.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Ring magazine has Tyson at no 9, Sports illustrated does not have him in top 10, Bert Sugar has him at 14. All rank him much below Ali.

Nihilstjnr:
Ali never faced anybody with Tyson's ability or destructive power.

For example, I'm confident that if it was Tyson Ali tried that Rope-a-dope move with, he would have left the ring in a bodybag, because he would have several broken ribs piercing internal organs.

There has been nobody has quick and as explosive as 1988 Iron Mike in the history of heavyweight boxing. Ali lost to an inside fighter like Joe Frazier. Mike Tyson was the ultimate inside fighter. Not only could he unload those deadly hooks and uppercuts, his defence game in that era was ridiculous. You couldnt even touch the man.

Tyson would have body bagged Ali. No doubt

Who were the great fighers that Tyson met? How many of them did he beat?
I appreciate the video showing the no-name opponents. Tyson did not have Foreman's punching power and he had great defence i agree but his chin was not superb, he was doing all that showboating against non-name opponents with puff puff punches.
Foreman for sure would have rocked Tyson's world. He had more power and a stronger chin.

Nihilstjnr:
Controversial talk. Prime Tyson would have KILLED any of those 3.

20 year old Tyson would have Killed Mohammed Ali. I would bet both my testicles on it.

Your opinion, your very very wrong and isolated opinion. You will just be a eunuch for nothing, Tyson no send you reach that level o.

There is no controvery in this, all the reknowned analysts and historians like Bert Sugar, Bill Cayton, Al Bernstein, Max Kellerman place Tyson several rungs below Ali. Only people that grew up watching Tyson or heard of him and didn't educate themselves about other eras rate Tyson higher than Ali.

When you talk of the strongest chins in history you are talking about George Chuvalo, Ali e.t.c. Nobody ever knocked down Chuvalo and nobody ever knocked out a prime Ali.

raumdeuter:
I think that ranking was being unfair to Tyson, Very few champs were as dominant at their peak like Iron Mike. His trade mark was ending fights n record time that should count for a lot. He was one of the fiercest hitters in the game. He was sent to jail at 25yrs his peak.

In my lifetime Tyson is my best heavyweight and most explosive boxer, I dont really care about all those Hollyfield and Lewis type boxers who will spend 80% of their fight hugging and romancing the opponent


https://www.nairaland.com/182880/greatest-boxer-all-time-tyson

Almost everybody on that thread agreed agreed that Tyson was well below Ali, apart from Coogar who often argued authoritatively about things he knew nothing about.
I only have one question: Have you watched the full fights of the greats from the 70s? See, Tyson would have been at best no 4 behind Ali, Foreman, Frazier. Tyson had power but Foreman had more power, Shavers had more power, Ron Lyle and Frazier were close. The difference was that most of them also had strong chins.

Tyson ran through a weakend division. The guys he beat did not accomplish anything legendary before or after Tyson and whenever he met another great he struggled. 1980's heavyweight boxing was not great, the 80s belonged to the welterweights and middleweights.
Foreman came out of retirement after being an actor and a pastor and was running through them also in his 40s and none of them could knock him out the way Ali did when he (Foreman) was in his prime.

jonsnow92:
Hear Hear..Totally Agree.

Im talking about fighter for fighter..Holmes vs Tyson in their Prime.

Hard to say. But remember Holmes had a solid chin, had tremendous reach advantage and was a better ring general than Tyson with greater endurance.
Tyson struggled against those that could take a punch and also move him around. The Holmes jab would be working all day to keep Tyson away but who knows a Tyson hook might reset his brain, lol.

If you move Ali, Foreman, Frazier into any era they will win titles and probably dominate.

jonsnow92:
Frazier and Foreman would have dominated any era had they not fought during Alli's, Frazier's only losses were against Alli and Foreman(2ce each), so its safe to say had he not fight those 2, he would have retired undefeated. So the same premise could be used for Holmes too cos he never fought any great.

No i don't think Shavers hit harder than George..And even if he did, Shavers was a relative nobody'' compared to other big names.He wasn't considered a big name during the Alli era and Holmes fought him when shavers was 34 self..

Also if Holmes was that good i think he should have climbed up the ranks fast enough, He didn't get his first chance at glory till he was 29, when all the other greats were finished..Also he lost all his comebacks too.

You are right on Holmes. Those guys clocked 34-38 and he suddenly catapulted to the top at 29. And all those Tim Witherspoon and Gerry Cooney that Holmes was beating would never have been legends in Ali's era. Holmes was great but no way would he have dominated the 70s.

On Ernie Shavers practically everybody that fought both Foreman and Shavers said Shavers hit harder. Shavers had 2 problems, he started boxing in his 20s and by the time he got title shots he was past 30 and he had a suspect chin himself. Nobody with a suspect chin could have become champion in the cutthroat field of the 70s.

jonsnow92:
Couldnt agree more with Berth with him long cigar, but Holmes ahead of Tyson? ...Hmm in their prime, i'll tilt towards Tyson.

Bert put Tyson at no 14. Points he made against Tyson were that he had just 5 years and he didn't do too well when he faced other greats.
Against Holmes he said Holmes did not face any greats in their prime and fought many also-rans. That was the same point made against Lennox who he said would be about 18 or 19.
One thing he weighed heavily was how you did against other greats in your era and your fighting ability as opposed to just W-L record.

jonsnow92:
OF all time?..Greater than Alli? Joe Louis? Sugar Ray Robinson? Jack Dempsey?..Even Mike Tyson?

In Bert Randolph Sugar's ranking he rated 1)Joe Luis 2)Ali eight)Foreman 9)Frazier 10)Holmes
The other guys in the top 10 were old timers like Rocky Marciano, Ezzard Charles, Gene Tunney e.t.c meaning for modern boxing he ranked Ali, Foreman, Frazier, then Holmes.

P.S Sugar Ray Robinson was not a heavy weight.

jonsnow92:
Well Foreman had no tactics going into that Alli fight. All he wanted to do was get Alli down at all cost so he was just throwing wild punches with little or no calculation.

As for meanest, I agree..Old Archie Moore-Foreman's manager- said in the dressing room when Foreman was to come out and make the long walk down to the zaire stadium, that when he stared into George's eyes, he feared for Alli's safety and prayed Alli doesn't leave on a stretcher.


For Holmes though, many didn't forgive him for the annihilation of the Universally loved Alli, maybe that explains why he gets little love and recognition.

You have a point there especially considering he was Ali's sparring partner for several years and learnt a lot from Ali. When Ali was old and slow he peppered his oga, although in his defence he did say he was begging Ali to quit during the fight. He was the master jabber and had a solid chin and the heart of a lion. His fight with Norton was like a life and death match.

As per the Ali/Foreman fight if you watch the old tapes and documentaries many journalists truly feared for Ali's life. They truly believed Foreman would kill him.
See what Foreman did to Frazier na, who wouldn't be afraid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zx9iSfRIFI

jonsnow92:
I dont think Alli was betting his iron chin..Alli was blocking all through, Infact if you watch that fight again Foreman wasn't scoring at all, and all said in his post fight presser that Foreman was fighting dirty that's why Alli's eye appeared bruised.

As for the modern greatest list. In this particular order ill rate my top 3

Alli
Foreman
Tyson/Holmes

When i say betting his chin of course i don't mean that he would just lie there like nama and not block or defend. Remember that many of the fighters that Foreman beat like drum also tried to block but just didnt have Ali's ability to withstand punches. Foreman was knocking people out with glancing punches, blocked punches, deflected punches. He was the meanest man who ever walked into a boxing ring.

Your list is not bad. Ali, Foreman, Holmes/Tyson sounds about right. Holmes was a complete package, much underrated because he came between the Ali and Tyson eras.

.

A40:
First fight with Cooper not first ever fight. That's not what I intended to type.

Either way I don't rank Cooper amongst Ali's top 3 toughest opponents. He might not have been a novice but judging by how he found it relatively easier in the second go around you can't rule out the fact that Ali was still rather young and that played a role in their first bout

Cooper gave a 22 year old Ali problems in the first fight not the 2nd fight when he was older and arguably in his prime.

The rumble in the jungle was Ali at his improvisational best. That fight was won largely on the back of a one-off strategy and not a styles clash per se. There is every possibility another fight between them would have yielded a completely different outcome

I'm not saying he had the best stamina like say an Ali but it's tough to say it was a weakness when a vast majority of the guys he fought just couldn't last the distance including all-time greats. He won a few decisions too while on that KO streak so he wasn't a complete liability stamina-wise. He was even able to improve on it when he returned which means there was something there before as 40 year olds don't magically just stumble upon stamina.

Fatigue and Ali's counter-punching aside Foreman's gameplan was not good enough. He fell too cheaply for Ali's rope-a-dope

That rope-a-dope has been overhyped. It was nothing magical, it was just Ali betting his iron chin against Foreman's suspect stamina. He allowed Foreman to punch himself out and get exhausted, betting that Foreman would get tired before he (Ali) got knocked out.
In essence the rope-a-dope was based on the premise that Foreman had suspect stamina.
Skill and stamina can be worked on and the kind of stamina needed to fight the ferocious battles of the 70's was not required in the 90's.
Chin and punching power are God given.

Taking nothing from Foreman, he is one of the greatest ever heavyweights, likely 2nd only to Ali in terms of modern heavyweights. Had he not retired at 28 he might have gone down as the G.O.A.T

A40:
Of course he could say that after his first fight. He was barely 22, no disrespect to Cooper but I'd rank the likes of Frazier , Norton and Foreman as tougher fights for him

Lol we never really got to know how good Foreman's stamina was did we? His fight with Lyle showed that maybe his stamina was not as bad as advertised. I wouldn't use the loss to Ali to say Foreman was exposed since Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle are the only guys that didn't look like idiots against Big George. You would need a chin made of titanium and insane ring craft to pull off what Ali did. Two of Ali's biggest rivals George beat them like a stepfather. That says a

Fury would be a big problem for AJ to be honest

Point of correction, it was Ali's 19th fight not his 1st fight and his next fight less than a year later he beat the undisputed champion Sonny Liston who was thought to be unbeatable and who most other heavyweights were ducking. So don't make it look like Ali was a novice when he fought Cooper.

Styles make fights and Cooper gave Ali more problems than Foreman. Same reason Ali struggled like hell against Frazier THREE times and was able to knockout Foreman while Foreman beat Frazier like a sadist TWICE.

Foreman's stamina was questionable compared to the other great heavyweights of that era. In his first half of his career the man lost only twice and they happened to be 2 of his 4 longest fights (round 8 and round 12). The man rarely went beyond round 5.
The Ali knockout was as much about fatigue in the humidity and heat of Zaire on Foreman's part as it was about punching power on Ali's part.
Against Jimmy Young after the 12 round fight he suffered from heat stroke. His stamina was not the beast but he had an iron chin and fists of steel.

A40:
Deontay's style makes him remarkably vulnerable to any fighter with even remotely decent counter-punching ability. As far as AJ I'm more worried about a fit Tyson Fury than Deontay. Not saying Deontay can't beat AJ but I'm saying based on what I've seen from both fighters.

Naah I won't necessarily include Cooper in the list of guys that gave Ali tough time. Where you put Smoking Joe and George Foreman?

I don't mean unpolished means lack of quality. However when you meet an evenly matched fighter that can match your best attributes and neutralize them then that's when the lack of polish would show. Ali vs Foreman is a good example! Ali won that match with sheer ring craft knowing fully well he couldn't match Foreman punch for punch over the duration of the fight, it's why Tyson despite his devastating KO ability couldn't beat Holyfield and was ducking from Lennox till he wound up in the bing because at some point power won't be enough..

Foreman was a methodical fighter with arguably the heaviest fists in the division. It's why he could retire and still comeback to knock down guys half his age. Only Ali with his superior ring craft managed to make him look bad. I don't agree he was ponderous at all

As for Wilder and AJ well you're typically going to need a combination of blows to take down anybody so I think this is why I think they are at best tied. What I think Wilder has is slightly more speed and not power over AJ

If you consider that Cooper was not a great boxer he gave Ali problems compared to some other greater boxers. For example Ali knocked Foreman out and Foreman could not knock him down, while Cooper knocked Ali down and Ali was so dazed that Angelo Dundee had to use underhand tactics to save Ali. Cooper fought Ali twice and Ali could not knock him down (both fights stopped by the ref due to cuts under his eye).
I would say Cooper was the 3rd most difficult opponent for a prime Ali after Smoking Joe and Ken Norton.

Foreman was slow moving and lumbering so he was ponderous. His 2 gifts were 1) his toxic punch (probably top 3 in boxing history) and 2) his chin which was an underated aspect of his skill set.

Back to AJ and Wilder i actually believe AJ will win don't get it twisted, however i think you are wrong about Wilder. He definitely has more power or 1 knockout power than AJ. Check the knockouts of both of them. AJ has more of them from cumulative punishment finished of with deadly COMBINATIONS, Wilder is the one that has the deadly single punch knockouts. Remember Wilder is not a precise puncher so few of his combinations actually land. Wilder takes fewer LANDED DIRECT HITS to knockout an opponent than AJ that is why i know he has the more dangerous single punch KO ability.
What i have explained above is why i believe AJ has to be extra careful cos even though he is obviously the better boxer and more likely to win, if the fight is to be decided by one single/lucky punch it is more likely to be Wilder swinging it.

Nihilstjnr:
That's a matter of perspective.
he gave a valiant account of himself and at the very least took joeace2020 down with him.

That's 3 thread legends in 24 hours. Even ISIS would be pleased with his hit rate.

The first 2 legends took him down CLEARLY.
The last legend battled him to a stalemate.
Battling 3 legends is not special, beating them is what matters and he certainly didn’t beat them.
He lost 2 clearly, 1 was a stalemate, and won 1.
That is below average bro, the only props I give him is not knowing when he has been beaten ( cos he was beaten real n good over the last 48hrs).

Nihilstjnr:
one man Mopol and chief scummy slayer Cruzifixio sends his regards.

When they ask you what happened here, tell them that da diggerman came for house Manyoo

Oya make we dey go boys...

Till next time.

Lol
He lost the first battle by all accounts and he definitely didn’t win this one.
He came, he saw, and he was conquered.

neezar:
Obaino we the United faithfuls owe u a drink man

ur the real MVP

Baba get tactics sha...Allowed Diggz 2 use his hot punchlines at the beginning

He pulled off a rope a dope. Why do these shekpites always fall for the same trick? Can't one of them write it on the blackboard in their thread so they never forget?

Nihilstjnr:
my God.

This wasn't part of the plan...

Don't worry, Diggz will hit back. Woli agba is passing him the agbara as we speak.

Damn! Shyte just got real. I trust my man Diggz, e gonna bounce back like Tafa.
He ain't going down like that.

dopeJemi:
Lmao

E just be like Actor and boze for last fight, when the boze think say he don kill the actor, then from behind the actor go just shoot am

Like those Chinese movies. "Hahaha i see you know how to fight snake style, but can you fight.....MONKEY!"

This fight no too sweet like that jo. E be like say na for Oshodi under bridge people ko dey solve their beef from now on.

Ah Diggz score own goal with that one, o gba penalty lo throw-in. E no enter, try another one.

Una 3 no well. We no too get shooters again, Coogar and Starboard are of blessed memory, Dadehmola is in semi-retirement, Bushwickbill says he is not who we think he is, and our 2 active shooters have been jailed.
In fact i believe the jailing was a set up to weaken our family. With that in mind i place an open contract on Diggz, any shooter who is able to bring him down will be richly rewarded.

Nihilstjnr:
Diggz be like Brad Pitt in Troy

"Is there no one else?"

"Is there no one else?!"

No be una talk say Funlord and Lana woz am? Now that those 2 chairmen have been banned he just wants to bully some of the omo wewe wey dey here.

My conference is over, i no get work tomorrow. I am ready to hold vigil here if necessary, i am not missing another roforofo fight.

Oya Diggz come dey go your house.
And all these guys sef wey dey carry water pistol come gunfight i tire for una o, just dey embarrass us for this thread.

obainojazz:
but Nhilist fvcks four times a day though.

You want Nihilist and Diggz to tag team you?

A40:
Boxing is not mathematics but I think more often than not it's easier for a more polished fighter to make an unpolished one look really bad. Especially when your strengths and punching power are largely similar.

Foreman was Tyson before Tyson. Ali's chin and superior strategy was really what won him that fight. However I would always regret the fact that a rematch never happened because I doubt Ali would have won again. Frazier's style wasn't so different from Foreman but Foreman was just a much more powerful fighter. Remember Foreman also absolutely obliterated Norton, another guy who beat Ali but whose fighting style is close to Foreman's. In fact the more you look at it the more you wonder if Rumble in the jungle was a fluke.

I still feel it would boil down to AJ's ability to take a hit because Deontay is quicker. However AJ has equal if not greater KO power than Deontay. I think a lot of people are forgetting this fact

First of all i have not said Wilder will beat AJ but i feel AJ needs to be careful and it would be easier for Wilder to adjust to AJ's style which is regular than for AJ to adjust to Wilder's which is irregular. That being said quality of boxing, punching power and ability to take a punch usually decides the fight.

Also remember that 2 of Ali's toughest opponents Henry Cooper and Norton were famous for their unorthodox styles and that was one of the reasons (especially in the case of Cooper) that Ali struggled against them and was more comfortable with boxers of equal or arguably better quality. A boxer would almost always prefer to meet the style he has seen many times before than a style he has never seen or seen just a couple of times.
Unpolished does not mean low quality it just means your style is a bit all over the place. Foreman especially in his first coming had an unpolished style but was still able to wreak havoc.

P.S Norton and Foreman did not have similar styles in the 70's. Norton was more of a pressure fighter like Frazier and his defence was unique, Foreman was a pondering slugger throwing slow but poisonous bombs and he didnt really have any defence cos he rarely needed it.

Lastly while both AJ and Wilder both have enormous punching power it is Wilder that has the greater single punch KO ability.

Nihilstjnr:
low key wilder is just a more athletic Lucas Browne.

AJ will beat Deontay like a thief

AJ should win because he is more skilled and packs a great punch himself but Wilder has the better single punch power. Joshua's chin will be tested in that fight and the heavyweight class is the one where one punch can swing the momentum of a fight.

A40:
I like Wilder but I don't know that any fighter worth their onions would be scared of him never mind a relatively more polished boxer like AJ. My main worry with AJ is how much hits can he take?

However I dare say Wilder has not fought anybody with AJ's punching power as well. It might simply boil down to who lands flush first,

Most of those polished boxers do not like to fight unskilled and unscripted fighters. Also styles make fights, that is why Foreman beat Frazier like a bytch, Frazier inflicted life altering damage on Ali, but Ali beat Foreman.

AJ or any other boxer would prefer to fight against a boxer with an orthodox style than you can game plan for rather than an Area Boy in disguise with 1 punch knockout power like Wilder.
AJ is the better boxer but with someone with an unscripted style like Wilder you can be beating him easily but then run into a lucky destiny-altering roundhouse.