₦airaland Forum

The picture in the original post may or may not be that of Chris' mansion and cars. . .so I 'll pass up commenting on that but it is interesting to note the reaction of Joagbaje and cohort to March man's words which contain gems of Christian truth:

March man:
@joagbaje @mabell

I am. Member of CE. Been a member of since 2006 in Lagos.

You don't get the gist of my post, do you? It is that giving to church or to people is a confidential thing, nothing to boast about on Nairaland! How come we all know that you gave a prado jeep and now you are driving a wrangler? Be true to yourself, is this a Christian attitude? If Christ were to be alive, would he boast about his big Mercedez Benz?

^
(Matt 6:1-3) Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

March man:
He preached love, which would spur you to give according to what you decide in your heart, and not out of necessity or target (of the church or pastor). And he chooses who to bless because he sees the heart.

^
(2Cor 9:7) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

(2Cor 8:12) For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

March man:
That's why Christ picked the widow who gave her last mite out of the thousands giving in the synagogue on the day he visited. If it was CE, the widow would not even be noticed. It's all those giving in 'millions' who catch the fancy of the pastor. And they actually get rewarded with awards at the end of the year for their giving. CE looks at the Church record, but God looks at the heart. I used to joke with my wife that if I stole my organisation's money and gave it to the church, that I will definitely get several awards at IPPC. Reason is that the church would see a brother giving millions, while God will see a thief. Who should I please? God or the Church?

^
(Luke 21:1-4) And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

March man:
@mabell. I am member of CE. Really I am. But even in church, I have learnt to make God the focus of my worship. On the day of resurrection, I will account for my life and will not stand behind Pastor Chris or Rev Anita. Two issues made me to re evaluate my relationship with the Church. First I gave some money to my then Fiancee to keep for me. She gave it all to the church. Let me not be diplomatic. She stole it and gave to the church. I was mad and that almost destroyed our relationship. But me being me, I started asking myself, why she did what she did.  I arrived at the conclusion that the church put too much slant on giving. Giving huge targets and implying that you only move to the next level when meet these targets.

^
(2Pet 2:1-3)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

March man:
This belief has created people who will give their last dime on the church, but will not help their family friends or even themselves. My then Fiancee was a case in point. She spent all the money on the church and did not even buy a lipstick for herself. Meanwhile she had great need. So was her family. In fact you can't mention CE where her father is. He believes the church has created very selfish people who don't help their family.

^
(1Tim 5: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

(Matt 15:4-9) For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

March man:
Secondly, I visited a church in Abuja where the pastor divide the church into four, according to how members are giving. No comment.

I have a flight to catch. I wish you all above every thing else that you reason this post according to what Christ preached. Ciao!

^
(Jas 2:1-5)
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the man-lover clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

---

No wonder Joagbaje the wolf-in-sheep-clothing hates the epistle of James! CE is not a church. It is a cult as testified by mabell's own words to wit:

mabell:
. . .you are not his sheep, so , what are you still doing there

So she confesses that they are "pastor" Chris' sheep rather than Jesus' sheep:
(John 10:4-5) And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

And yes, she also got something right:

mabell:
My pastor is not poor but stinkily rich.

^
Yeah. . .dirty and smelly wealth which includes stolen money as reported here:

http://www.newswatchngr.com/editorial/prime/2003/24032003/sr10323144038.htm

Lawrence Agada, general cashier of Sheraton Hotels and Towers, Ikeja, will not forget January 12, in a hurry. On that fateful day, Chris Oyakhilome, pastor of Christ Embassy Church , Oregun, prophesied in a letter to him that God would do mighty things in his life. “He will cause you to excel and lift you up so high that the world can’t but take notice of you, in Jesus name. Amen.” Agada attracted the prophecy for sowing a seed of a 250 KVA generator valued at N4.4 million to the headquarters of Christ Embassy.

There was no stopping him after that. In no time he had spent N39 million on various projects and personal donations to pastors of Christ Embassy Church . But rather than receive reward for his seed sowing, Agada has landed into trouble. He was handed over to the police last week for stealing the money from his employers, to fund church projects.

Eko Ile:
Unfortunately for us, SK said no,  and no means no . Obviously somebody stretched the truth.
Regardless , must odechukwu run his mouth about den say den say just to make us feel like he's doing something.I'm sure he didnt sing any document with SK about some project.

^Where is the verifiable source of "SK said no"? Can't you be objective for once. You see referenced in full the Reuters report that quotes Mr Jai-Seong Lee. Let's see the actual news report that quotes Jonathan as well the actual news report that shows Hyundai saying no.

Why can't you use your brain this once? Must you insist on being this silly? Since you do not seem to understand my point, let me break it down for you:

If the SR article had been titled say: "Hyundai Heavy denies report of building a shipyard &c"; that is an example of objective news reporting but to proclaim in screaming headlines: "Jonathan Lied", only for one to read the article and find that Reuters a reputable news agency quotes Mr Jai-Leong Lee the president of Hyundai Heavy himself as actually saying: ' "My company is going to $7 billion in Nigeria in the building of a shipyard", Jai-Seong Lee told reporters at the presidential villa following a meeting with Jonathan.' No where in the body of the article do we find Jonathan himself saying this. . .so where is the "Jonathan Lied".

My conclusion is that at best you are being dishonest or disingenuous or at worst you are plainly moronic.

And to prove just how silly your post is. . .here is the Reuters article.

---

UPDATE 1-Hyundai Heavy to build $7 bln shipyard in Nigeria
Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:56pm GMT

ABUJA, Sept 15 (Reuters) - South Korean group Hyundai Heavy Industries 009540.ks plans to build a $7 billion shipyard in Nigeria's oil region next year, the company's president said on Thursday.

The world's largest shipbuilder said while construction on the project would begin in 2012, it had already begun clearing the land in Bayelsa, the home state of President Goodluck Jonathan in the heart of the oil-rich Niger Delta wetlands.

"My company is going to $7 billion in Nigeria in the building of a shipyard," Jai-Seong Lee told reporters at the presidential villa following a meeting with Jonathan.

Lee said the first phase would be completed by 2014. The shipyard will provide services to oil companies operating in Africa's largest energy industry.

The Bayelsa state governor said the government would not invest in the project but it had given Hyundai the land and would build a road to the shipyard.

"For us, the gain is in the jobs they are going to create and the taxes they will be paying to us when they commence operating the shipyard after completion," said Timipre Sylva. (Reporting by Felix Onuah; Writing by Joe Brock; Editing by Dan Lalor)

http://af.reuters.com/article/nigeriaNews/idAFL5E7KF3QW20110915

---

See your life? While we have a verifiable source for the news that Hyundai plans to build a shipyard, where is SaharaReporter's verifiable source that "Jonathan Lied"?

@Gbawe: Really? Did you read what you posted or are you descending to the lowest common denominator? The very same SR article you quote says this:

Reuters quoted Mr. Jai-Seong Lee as telling reporters at the presidential villa following his meeting with Jonathan: "My company is going to $7 billion in Nigeria in the building of a shipyard."

According to Reuters in that story, the company said while construction on the project would begin in 2012, it had already begun clearing the land in Bayelsa, and that the first phase would be completed by 2014.

So Reuters attributes the source for this information to Hyundai's Mr Jai-Seong Lee. In what way is this "Jonathan lied?". Of course by phrasing the title of the original article on their website like a question SaharaReporters is being clever by half but one can see where this is going. You on the other hand apparently do not even have the cleverness to do likewise for your post's title reads "Jonathan Lied". You are being dishonest.

I thought you were one of the more objective commentators on the political section of this forum. . .but it would appear I am mistaken. 

claremont:
. . .Is he bigger than all the other ex-heads of states who have already been indicted and jailed for crimes against humanity?!. . .

^Yes, he is. . .don't allow your dislike for the RCC cloud objectivity. The allegiance of the over 1 billion catholics is first and foremost to the pontiff before any other country or supranational body.

When God does not answer your prayer. . .?

As a child of God. . .is that true?
[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=760817.msg9156674#msg9156674 date=1316143832]God answers all prayers. His answer varies. 3 categories:
1. Yes child, here it is
2. No child, I have a better plan
3. Wait child, not now.[/quote]My view pretty much aligns with pres-elect's above. . .but also to add that there may be a delay in receiving an answer from our Heavenly Father as we see in the example of Daniel due to demonic opposition.
(Dan 10:12-13 [KJV])
Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

---

JeSoul:
Anyone want to take on globexl's post?

^Nah. It's a rather confused post: globexl can't decide what he believes:

globexl:
Have you ever considered that the creator of the universe is perhaps impersonal

vs.

globexl:
Have you considered that God's love is only concerned about the health and purity of your immortal soul(the real you) and not concerned about your material comfort and worldly travails?

In one post he has managed to cancel himself out. Why would an "impersonal god" be "concerned about the health and purity of your immortal soul"

Sweetnecta:
Where is the truth, I ask?

^Certainly not with Muhammad. . .another idolater who unfortunately did not follow the example of Abraham who forsook his idols when Yahweh Elohim called him out of UR of the Chaldees. Interestingly, the gods of Mesopotamia are the same gods that Muslims worship today under the name of "the god".

Here is the truth:
(John 14:6 [KJV])
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jimmy Boy:
Abraham was originally a Syrian. . .

^Actually it was Jacob who was being called a Syrian. Here is the cross reference:
(Hos 12:12 [KJV])
And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep.
Abraham was from Mesopotamia (today's Iraq). . .but all these origins do not matter. What matters is what God had to say about them.
(Heb 11:13-16 [KJV])
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

LagosShia:
yeah thats according to your rotten bible. . .

Hilarious. . .you Muslims should make up your mind. Confused bunch. So the Bible is rotten. . .and yet you idol-worshiping lot are always looking for Muhammad in it's pages.

---

(2Kgs 17:14 [KJV])
Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God.

---

LagosShia:
. . .so piss off!

^ Where do you want me to piss? On your head? That will render you unclean in the eyes of your god. . .but wait it doesn't matter, you are already haram, as unclean or worse than a swine. . .which is why you have to do ablution every day. Unfortunately that cannot render you clean.

Come to Jesus and be washed.
(John 13:10 [KJV])
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Sweetnecta:
The two in bold agree with each other. . .

^The words written are clear and explicit but you Muslim must always twist it to fit your theology. . ."(Matt 13:14 [KJV]) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:"

Abraham was an idolater before Yahweh Elohim chose him, called him out; before he believed in the one True God and Jesus His only Begotten Son and was saved. Just like the Jews you are stuck and stumble at this point. . .that Abraham also believed in Jesus and thus was saved by faith.

---

(John 8:52-58 [KJV])
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exactly what Jesus said to the Jews is the same message to you today:
(John 8:23-24 [KJV])
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

@claremont:
. . .I can see you are very very very very naive about the nature of the world. So you think the Catholic Pontiff will be indicted by the ICC in the Hague? How little you know about how the world works. BTW it just a formal complaint, and that is where it will end.

You will do well to heed chukwudi44's point:

chukwudi44:
. . .it is easier to drag obama 2 d hague than 4 u 2 take d pope there.

LagosShia:
And he was not of the polytheists. . .

Abraham worshiped idols. . .until Yahweh Elohim called him.

(Josh 24:2-3 [KJV])
And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

---

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

Sweetnecta:
I have a new viewpoint, now. I want any christian who believes in what he or she writes about Jesus to swear to it by a curse against him/herself. No christian will do it. Aletheia the father of hypocrisy have been dancing around it. I am sure you will too. Even frosbel will. All of you are big time hypocrites like your father the liar paul who was a killer from the beginning.

^Each new post by you is even more deluded than the previous. aletheia seems to be your worst nightmare, Mr Hamzah or is it Galadima (whatever your name is)

We see the scriptures fulfilled in you:
(2Thess 2:10-12 [KJV])
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Only pagan idolaters like Muslims swear and with curses. . .since they worship demon gods. But then Muhammad and all Muslims are already cursed. . .unless they repent.
True Christians have nothing to do with curses or swearing.

---

@Topic: Abraham was neither a Jew or an Arab.
He was variously referred to as a Chaldee, and a Hebrew.
(Gen 11:27-28 [KJV])
Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot. And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in UR of the Chaldees.

(Gen 14:13 [KJV])
And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;

---

What exactly do the words highlighted above mean? What does it mean when it says "god raised him up unto himself"?

@ayox2003:

I think you subject yourself and belief in God to ridicule. A lot of your questions betray a lack of understanding about the atheists' arguments. . .and modern science.

ayox2003:
If humans evolved from chimpanzees, why are chimpanzees still around?

^The theory of Evolution does not state that "humans evolved from chimpanzees." This is a misconception on your part.

ayox2003:
The Big slam Theory proposes that everything in the Universe started from something called singularity which is smaller than an atom. How can you stuff everything in the universe in that? It's hard enough to stuff four suitcases in the trunk of your car!

^Ehm. . .it's called the Big Ban g theory (guess the spambot changed it). It's a theory of the origins of the universe. . .as for stuffing four suitcases into the trunk of your car, your mistaken assumption is that the laws of physics governing the mundane events of daily life are somewhat the same as the laws of physics in operation during the first nanoseconds of the Event. Read up more here.

ayox2003:
If the earth really revolves around the sun, then why when we look at the sun we can see it plainly revolving around the earth? (And if the earth was moving around the sun, wouldn't we all fly off into space?)

^The heliocentric model of the solar system says the earth revolves around the sun in an elliptical orbit once every 365 and 1/4 days. . .this is responsible for the seasons. You see the sun "revolving" round the earth because the earth rotates on it's axis once every 24 hours. . .this is responsible for 'night and day, and the sun "rising" and "setting" '.

ayox2003:
If women were not created from Adam's rib, why is it that men have one fewer rib than women?

^Err. . .actually men and women have the same number of ribs. In the years I spent dissecting cadavers, I never came across men who had one fewer rib than women. Honestly where did you get this idea from? I understand Adam having one less rib. . .but all men? Come on.

ayox2003:
How do scientists know stars are "millions of light years away"? Have they been there and back? Do they have a tape measure that stretchs that long?

^Because light has a finite speed though it may appear to us as instantaneous. . .and it takes time for it to get from point A to point B. Read up on the Michaelson & Morley experiment, also find out about the Doppler effect.

ayox2003:
Scientists say all our genetic information is coded on DNA. But DNA is an acid! How can you write information in acid? You can write information on a hard drive, but not a liquid!

^They are right. DNA is a repository of information. Think of it as a 4 letter alphabet. You can use alphabets to spell words. Words convey information. DNA is an acid. DNA is the abbreviation of Deoxyribonucleic acid. It is a relatively simple molecule comprising of 4 bases: thymine, adenine, cytosine and guanine. . .Read more here

ayox2003:
People have been wearing clothes for thousands of years. Why haven't our bodies evolved natural clothes that come out of our skin then?

^Those who believe in Evolution don't think it works like that. They would argue that the fact that men wear clothes is the evolutionary adaptation.

ayox2003:
If there really are millions and millions of species, then how could have Adam named them all? Obviously, there's not that many species then! (Gen 2:18-22)

^I don't know about millions and millions of species. . .who's cataloged them? But Genesis 2:18-20 does not seem to suggest that Adam named every creature. . .it would be instructive to you to note that "the fish of the sea (Genesis 1:28)" is missing from Genesis 2:18-20 and that "every beast of the field (Genesis 2:18)" is only a subset of "every living thing that moveth upon the earth (Genesis 1:28)."

ayox2003:
If our brains are just a mishmash of biochemistry, how come chemicals like gasoline or bug spray can't think?

^This your straw man argument. No one (not even atheists), I think argues that the human brain is just a mishmash of biochemistry. The brain is a complex organ that comprises living cells. It does produce chemicals which it uses for signalling mechanisms and transmitting of messages. It also possesses significant electrical activity. Gasoline and bug spray on the other hand are just hydrocarbon-based compounds. Surely you see there are two different classes of things.

ayox2003:
Einstein said that if you approach the speed of light, time slows down. Once you hit the speed of light, time stops. If that is so, how come light can travel from point A to point B if time is stopped for light?

^Again: firstly, light has a finite speed so it will take time to get from point A to B e.g. 8 minutes for light to get from the sun to the earth. Secondly, you do not understand the Special Theory of Relativity. Yes: as you approach the speed of light, time slows; however it is impossible for any particle that has rest mass to be accelerated to the speed of light. Light is electromagnetic radiation comprising photons. Photons do not have rest mass.

The rest of your questions are probably okay as a springboard for philosophical discourse. . .since they did not involve misconceptions about science.

[quote author=ekt_bear link=topic=757476.msg9147378#msg9147378 date=1316021286]What if he decides to install a 10 MW power plant powered by natural gas himself? He provides the electricity and small businesses sign up to be wired to his grid. Textile shops, food processing plants, all sorts of small businesses like this.[/quote]^Quite sensible approach. . .but I can bet my bottom dollar that that will not be done.

It is good to be optimistic but I believe this is just the usual empty rhetoric from politicians. The sad thing is that so many on this thread who ought to be more discerning are allowing themselves to be carried away by empty platitudes that sound nice but are really lacking in specifics and substance.

The current administration of Governor Ibikunle Amosun is determined to increase the number of industries in Ogun State to about 10,000 in the next four years.

The number of companies, which currently is about 1,500, is expected to increase, owing to the creation of a one-stop shop in the Ministry of Commerce and Industry, which will reduce bureaucratic bottlenecks for prospective investors.

The part highlighted above is rather vague. It provides no specific roadmap for how to get from 1,500 companies to 10,000 companies in 4 years. How? Someone highlighted the very important need for capital above. How does "one-stop shop" address access to capital for prospective small business owners, access to low-interest loans or microfinance schemes?

We should be wary of politicians' sound bytes.

Depointer1:
If not the SNG. . .

"Save Nigeria Group?". . .how we lie to ourselves. I believe the true picture is much more nuanced:

Wikileaks: C O N F I D E N T I A L ABUJA 000037

SIPDIS

STATE FOR AF/FO, AF/W, AF/RSA, DRL, INR/AA

E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/31/2017
TAGS: PGOV PREL PHUM AA
SUBJECT: LOW TURNOUT AT PROTEST AGAINST NIGERIAN
PRESIDENT'S PROLONGED ABSENCE

REF: A. ABUJA 00032
¶B. ABUJA 00036

Classified By: Deputy Chief of Mission Dundas C. McCullough for reasons
1.4. (b & d).

¶1. (C) SUMMARY. One day after the GON publicly denied a press report that President Yar'Adua had died, a small, lackluster group of demonstrators in Abuja demanded better
governance and clarity on Yar'Adua's condition. Local media, meanwhile, continue to report mounting pressure on Yar'Adua to hand over formal powers to VP Jonathan or to resign, and intensifying politicking for a post-Yar'Adua administration.
END SUMMARY.

¶2. (SBU) On January 12, several hundred youth participated in a brief and peaceful demonstration organized by the "Save Nigeria" group. Organizers had predicted up to 5,000 supporters, which would have been notable for Abuja. Protesters marched from the Abuja Unity fountain (across from the Transcorp Hilton Hotel), past the secretariat building (whose perimeter wall had been pasted overnight with "We Support Yar'Adua" and "Down with Anarchy" posters, to the National Assembly gate, where security guards prevented them from entering.

¶3. (SBU) Demonstrators wore white T-shirts printed with "Save Nigeria" and black pants to promote group identity, but few of the 150 invited civil society groups were named except the Nigerian Bar Association and the Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta (MEND). A row of police on horseback escorted the marchers with uniformed civil defense monitors forming the second row. Uniformed police lined the route, played a friendly role, did not restrict anyone, and allowed pedestrians to watch from the sidewalks. During the march, a pro-Yar'Adua group sang songs and carried banners.

¶4. (SBU) Marchers carried signs reading "Enough is Enough," "Yar'Adua Where Are You?," "Ibori Why Are You Free?," "No To Corruption," "Talk To Us," "We Want Better Government," and "We Are Not Terrorists" (the only oblique reference to U.S. Transportation Security Administration designation of Nigeria as a "country of interest." Participants handed out flyers calling for a campaign against poverty -- "Poverty of Ideas," "Poverty of Hope," "Poverty of Honor," and so forth. Passers-by watched quietly from the sidewalks.

¶5. (SBU) The demonstrators stayed in front of the Assembly grounds with hopes that someone would come out to address them. Eventually, Representative Farouk Lawan came out to speak. The organizers, Professor and Nobel Laureate Wole Soyinka, human rights lawyer and West African Bar Association President Femi Falana, former Kaduna Governor Balarabe Musa, Pastor Tunde Bakare, and former Biafran secessionist leader Dim Chukwuenmeka Ojukwu rode in cars along the demonstration route, not showing themselves to the public until Falana, Soyinka, and Tunde welcomed Lawan.

-------
COMMENT
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¶6. (C) The BBC radio interview with an apparently frail but coherent Yar'Adua, promising to return soon to Nigeria, probably did not significantly depress today's demonstration turnout since activists -- given Abuja's remote location from likely activist fountainheads -- would have been already in Abuja or on the way when the interview was broadcast. END COMMENT
SANDERS

http://wikileaks.org/cable/2010/01/10ABUJA37.html

So the cowards who failed to show themselves to the public, hiding in their cars and who failed to lead their few hundred cohorts by example from the front were responsible for Turai's "capitulation"? I dey laugh.

Almost everyone that has commented on this thread concerning Jos, knows nothing about the Jos situation beyond what they read in the papers. However those on ground who know the terrain have spoken:

Residents hail Jonathan’s directive

Residents of Plateau State yesterday welcomed the directive by President Goodluck Jonathan that the Chief of Defence Staff, Air Marshal Oluseyi Petirin should take over the security of the state expressing hope that he would make a difference.

Knowing the hilly terrain of the Plateau, it is just not having soldiers on ground that will counter the nightly raids going on around the outskirts of Jos. . .but the use of equipment such as those stated in the article:

Vanguard gathered that following the meetings, the Army High Command has directed the deployment of some armoured vehicles used for reconnaissance activities, advanced communications and night vision equipment as well as light combat attack vehicles to Jos for the operation.

Already, the Air Officer Commanding Tactical Command of the Nigerian Air Force, Markudi, Air Vice Marshal Odesola was said to have deployed some of the air surveillance aircraft in the command for surveillance activities to cover the long expanse of land and valleys where most of the attackers on both sides of the divide pass through to perpetrate havoc.

I find it especially gratifying to note the introduction of night vision equipment which will help towards tracking down the bands which operate during the night.

Having said that the government needs to do more to curb the cattle rustling which is going on between the Berom and Fulani on the outskirts of Jos and which is the root cause of the night raids and attacks. Also it must be noted that the problem of Jos North between the Hausa/Fulani settlers and the indigenous Berom/Afizere/Anaguta is not the same as that involving the Berom and Fulani on the outskirts of Jos in places like Heipang, Vom, Riyom, Barkin Ladi. . .but the nuances are often not reported in the media which tends to conflate the two. The first involves the expansionist and revisionist tendencies of the settler Hausa/Fulani to claim Jos as theirs while the second involves cases of cattle-stealing by both Berom and Fulani herdsmen.

Sweetnecta:
A prayer from the simple slave of Allah is more potent than the wrote efforts of the jews against Isa bin Maryam [as]. While the jews failed, Allah will make me victorious.

^
So why are you begging me to agree with you then? I laugh at your foolishness:

See who is praying for someone. Did not Abu Lahab and your false prophet Muhammad die in similar ways - in excruciating pain and agony after suffering injury at the hands of women. What is the difference between the deaths of Abu Lahab and his nephew Muhammad?

Answer the question above if truly you are a man and not a dog/slave/swine of allah. . .[size=16pt]coward, you know the answer to that question and dare not answer it.[/size]

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Narrated 'Aisha:

Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect). . .(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660)

What a weak and failed prophet! Magic was worked on him. . .and a woman poisoned him in the end. Is that the sort of man, whose prayer I should fear: one who could not ward bewitchment from himself.
In the same way that Muhammad consigned Abu Lahab to the fires of hell in just the same way did Dante consign Muhammad to hell. . .in very graphic terms. Read:

Dante, in The Divine Comedy: Inferno, placed Muhammad in Hell, with his entrails hanging out (Canto 28):

No barrel, not even one where the hoops and staves go every which way, was ever split open like one frayed Sinner I saw, ripped from chin to where we fart below.
His guts hung between his legs and displayed His vital organs, including that wretched sack Which converts to shit whatever gets conveyed down the gullet.
As I stared at him he looked back And with his hands pulled his chest open, Saying, "See how I split open the crack in myself! See how twisted and broken Mohammed is!. . .

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Mohameddemons2.jpg
This picture is of an early Renaissance fresco in Bologna's Church of San Petronio, created by Giovanni da Modena and depicting Mohammed being tortured in Hell. In 2002, Islamic extremists plotted to blow up the church in order to destroy the image.

Oya, cry to you impotent god to do his worst. I am waiting. I think you claim your demon god Allah is all-puissant; why is he waiting for my permission to inflict Abu Lahab's fate on me?

In fact; I am going to ignore your diversionary tactic. In increased desperation at the truth concerning the documented pagan origins of al-ilah a.k.a as Allah a.k.a Hubal a.k.a Baal; you seek to turn it into a tale about the "Father of flame". Your pretensions are easily punctured by asking you describe how Abu Lahab's death is similar to Muhammad's death: both died in excruciating pain and agony after being injured/poisoned by women respectively. . .so I wonder who was praying for who. One of history's ironies!

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The pre-Islamic origin of "Allah" - (The truth that "Muslims" hide from you!)
1. There is absolutely no question that Allah was worshipped by the pagan Arabs as one of many polytheistic gods.
2. Allah was worshipped in the Kabah at Mecca before Muhammad was born. Muhammad merely proclaimed a god the Meccans were already familiar with. The pagan Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped.
3. Many scholars say "Allah" is derived from a compound Arabic word, AL + ILAH = Allah. "Ilah" in Arabic is "God" and "Al" in Arabic is a definite article like our word "the". So from an English equivalent "Allah" comes from "The + God". Others, like Arthur Jeffery say, "The common theory is that it is formed from ilah, the common word for a god, and the article al-; thus al-ilah, the god," becomes Allah, "God." This theory, however, is untenable. In fact, the name is one of the words borrowed into the language in pre-Islamic times from Aramaic." (Islam: Muhammad and His Religion, Arthur Jeffery, 1958, p 85)
4. [size=16pt]Although "Allah" has become known as the proper name for the Muslim god, Allah is not a name, but a descriptor that means literally, "the god". All pagan cultures have these generic terms that refer to their "top god" as "the god".[/size] In comparison to the perfect monotheism of Judaism and Christianity, "Allah" was originally no more a proper name for the Muslim God, than the word Hebrew "elohim" (god) or Greek "theos" (god) are proper names of the one true God of the Bible. "Jehovah" is the only revealed proper name for the "Elohim" of the Old Testament ( Ex 3:13; 6:3) and "Jesus" is the only revealed proper name of "Theos" in the New Testament. (Acts 4:12) Islam has no proper name for their god, but merely transformed, by universal use and confusion, the generic Allah into a proper name. So although today, Muslims use "Allah" as a proper name, it was never used this way originally. Allah, therefore is equivalent to "elohim" and "ho theos" but not "Jehovah" or "Jesus". Allah is not the name of the nameless Muslim God. However Muslims will claim that Allah is the name of God that corresponds to Jehovah. Both the Father and the Son are called "ho theos" (The God). Jesus is called "The God" many times in the New Testament: John 20:28; Heb 1:8.

An important conclusion from this, is that the mere fact that "Allah" is equivalent to "elohim" and "ho theos" does not mean they are directly corresponded. It certainly doesn’t prove Allah is the same as the God of the Old or New Testament. It does not prove that Muslim’s worship the same God as Christians. If this correspondence proved the Muslim god was the same as the Christian God, then because pagan religions also have generics that correspond to "the god" (Allah), this correspondence would also prove that Allah is the same god as the Buddhist god, for Buddhists also refer to their god as "the god".

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[b]The part highlighted in point #4 above is the crux of the matter which Muslims seek to conceal. The top god of the pantheon was Hubal/Baal who was known to his devotees as "the god." Then along came Muhammad and elevated him to "monotheistic" status. Islam may be "monotheistic" but it does not change the fact that the god of Islam is Hubal/Baal. The sleight of hand used to hoodwink people is that Muslims have dropped the name Hubal/Baal in place of the nondescript "the god (Allah)."
What has happened is similar to what the ancient Pharaoh Akhenaten attempted when he tried to promote the worship of his favorite solar deity Aten as the one true god to the exclusion of other Egyptian deities. . .his short-lived faux-monotheism did not outlive him, but in Muhammad's case; Muhammad succeeded in carrying out the same gambit.
Another way of looking at it is to consider for example an ancient Greek prophet succeeded in starting a religion in which he declares that Zeus is the only true god and successfully convinces others to use the Greek word "ho theos" (the god) in place of the proper name Zeus. Does this in any way negate the fact that "the god" is still Zeus, a false god?
Just so it is with Islam; Muhammad succeeded in starting a religion in which he declares that his favorite solar/lunar deity Hubal/Baal is the only true god and successfully convinces his followers to use "the god" (Allah) in place of Hubal/Baal. Just so was the Trojan horse strategy of Satan's false prophet Muhammad in setting up this most Antichrist of religions. . .which claims monotheistic worship of a false god, while retaining all it's paganistic polytheistic rituals.[/b]

^If Allah is indeed your puissant god, why do you need my amin for him to answer your prayer that I should come to harm?

Typical Muslim; chasing after Christians to lend legitimacy to their sham religion of idol worship. [size=16pt]So Allah nows needs this Christian's amin to answer the prayer of one of his Muslims.[/size] Oya sharp, sharp, begin to submit all your prayers to me for approval. Apparently, Allah needs my Christian permission to act. That is as it should be: For in Christ, I am far above Allah and your demon god must bow and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Halleluyah! Allah does indeed bow to Jesus!

Even the out and out pagan worshipers will not ask someone who doesn't believe in their gods to say amin for their prayers to work. And thus is revealed the weak, pathetic and muddled nature of Islam; so muddled in it's idolatry that it requires another's amin for it's weak mouse of a god: Allah is a mouse (akbar!) to act.

And oh yes:

aletheia:
See who is praying for someone. Did not Abu Lahab and your false prophet Muhammad die in similar ways - in excruciating pain and agony after suffering injury at the hands of women. What is the difference between the deaths of Abu Lahab and his nephew Muhammad?

aletheia:
Answer the question above if truly you are a man and not a dog/slave/swine of allah. . .coward, you know the answer to that question and dare not answer it.

Here we have idolaters (calling themselves Muslims) worshiping a god who by the process of henotheism ended up with Hubal/Baal/al-ilah (Allah) trying to seek legitimacy for their false god by claiming El Elohe Yisrael as the same as theirs. In similar fashion did the idolatrous Jews try to claim that Baal was Yahweh Elohim. Same modus operandi. It was always so that Satan will claim to be god.

Here is the verdict and witness of history: Allah is Satan and Muhammad is his false prophet!

^Do you have maggots for brains?. . .Has Islam rotted whatever little gray matter, you had to start with? You claimed to have prayed to your mouse god concerning my demise. . .what do you need my assent for. I should say amin to a prayer directed to an idol called al-ilah? Do you think I am silly like you Mr Hamzah and I pray to false gods and idols like Muslims?
Let allah do his worse, and we know his worse is nothing because allah is a false god, a stone idol in Kaaba in mecca. Nonsense! Deluded dog of al-ilah, did Abu Lahab say amin to sura 111? Again i ask you:

aletheia:
Did not Abu Lahab and your false prophet Muhammad die in similar ways - in excruciating pain and agony after suffering injury at the hands of women. [size=14pt]What is the difference between the deaths of Abu Lahab and his nephew Muhammad?[/size]

Answer the question above if truly you are a man and not a dog/slave/swine of allah. . .coward, you know the answer to that question and dare not answer it.

Sweetnecta:
Aletheia, since Jesus was from his lips, powerless, you will be a complete fool to rely on him, if you choose me to pray the end of Abu Lahab for you. Look, evil doers, prayers for disasters befit them, the reason Musa [as] prayed to Allah at long last to destroy Fir'aun {Lana}. Make your choice if you wanna join the rank of Ariel Sharon. I know you are a weak person. You want disaster, I will ask Allah on your behalf. This slave is bold. I do not need a go between to talk to the Unseen. I can do it all by myself. Its in there on the pages of the QUran. Your call, Aletheia.

^Shut up there! Why all this peregrinations and false bravado? I have already told you: go ahead and pray to your god. . .allah is a mouse (akbar)! Make sure to shout so that he can hear you. You know your god is powerless else you would have prayed your Abu Lahab prayer by now. . .so that we will see the so-called power of the god of Muhammad. Nonsense.
See who is praying for someone. Did not Abu Lahab and your false prophet Muhammad die in similar ways - in excruciating pain and agony after suffering injury at the hands of women. What is the difference between the deaths of Abu Lahab and his nephew Muhammad?

^You must be getting desperate, threatening me with sura 111. I have already told you your imprecations and curses have no power over a follower of Jesus of Nazareth. Go ahead and pray your Abu Lahab prayer; your god can do nothing for allah is indeed a mouse (akbar)! Make sure not to try and scare him away as you "pray" because you know how easily mice are frightened away.

^
Abu Lahab; the man that so exposed your false prophet that he composed a whole sura for him. Understand this: your imprecations and curses have no power. . .for indeed you Muslims are an idolatrous lot worshipping Baal and your behaviour is exactly like that of the men who contended with Jerubaal (Gideon) in the book of Judges. If indeed Baal/Hubal/Allah is god let him fight for himself. But Allah cannot fight for himsellf and needs his followers to do so on his behalf because:

In 2500 BC in Assyria from the historical record we can find the meaning of Akbar. The Muslim has a chant he shouts when he is spiritually excited or when he is angry with some heretic. It is, "Allah u Akbar," and it is supposed to mean, "Allah is Great." This is what Muhammed chanted as he defeated the Kouraish in Mecca and rode around the Kaaba on his camel.
Well, Akbar is a strange thing to call Allah. Hislop tells us that there was a legend in Babylon that Nimrod tried to destroy the light, and Shem rescued it. The story says that mice were the producers of light, and they produced the light for Shem. [size=14pt]The word for mouse in Chaldean is "Aakbar." In Arabic and Turkish it is Gheber or Kheber. So, when Muhammed cried "Allah u Akbar" in Mecca, he was actually saying, "Allah is a mouse." This exposes Islam for exactly what it is, a canonizing of fairy tales.[/size]

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LagosShia:
Muhammad (sa) entered Makkah and triumphantly cleansed the Ka'bah from all the idols that were inside and used his own hands to destroy and break al-lat and al-uzza and the over 300 arabian idols placed therein.what a shame for anyone to deny that!!!

See this pagan! Aren't you saying the same thing I said: How is this above different from this that I wrote?

All we see is that Allah was a high god with 3 daughters, while being the incestual mate of another one, ALLAT. We must wonder why is there nothing ever found to prove that Allah was never worshipped as a god without any consorts? The only thing Muslims try an use to offer in promoting Allah's monotheism is the Quran. But the Quran isn't from pre-Islamic Arabia and is neither a witnesses or an authority in pre-Islamic Arabia. Also notice that Allah was the name of A GOD, not the name of THE GOD OF ABRAHAM. This Muslim argument about this matter is lacking any historical support. This factor is very intriguing indeed.

If we are to base Islamic argument on the idea of "Allah" being the true God because he is the high god, then every other culture who has a high god is also the same as the true god. Is Zeus the word for god in Greek? No it's theos, Is Brahman the name for God in India? No. [size=16pt]Muhammad took the high god name "Allah" and called him the God of Abraham because it was his favorite deity as well as the special deity of his tribe, the Quraish.[/size]

Moreover who was Abdullah supposed to be offered in sacrifice to? Here is a hint as to the identity of the god from your own Muslim sources:
When the man took the arrows to cast lots with them, 'Abdu'l-Muttalib (Muhammad's grandfather) [size=16pt]stood by Hubal praying to Allah.[/size] Then the man cast lots and 'Abdullah's (Muhammad's father) arrow came out.

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Another one of Allah's daughters is Al-Uzza. She is also mentioned as an intecessor in the Satanic verses along with Manat and Allat. History shows that:
AL-UZZA WAS BROUGHT TO MECCA BY THE QURAYSH and enjoined to the already established Kaaba worship, but she probably was a local deity in Mecca since the time of Amr ibn Lubayy. IN MUHAMMAD'S TIME, al-Uzza was the most important of the Meccan local deities, perhaps save for HUBAL. Her main sanctuary was in a valley called Hurad, just outside Mecca. It was complete with a haram and a sacrificial altar. (Peter, Muhammad, pg. 110)

This is very striking indeed because it shows how gods (in this case Uzza) was brought from other lands but most importantly it reveals the most important local deity. This deity was Hubal a.k.a "The Lord". This is amazing because Hubal who was Baal was known by the Arabs before Islam, especially the Qurayish (Muhammad's tribe), and even during Muhammad's time as Allah!! In Islamic history Allah is known as the lord of the Kaaba. Since Hubal is known as "The lord" and Allah is known as the lord of the Kaaba, then Allah would be the Hubal of the Kaaba, which explains why the Qurayish used the name "Allah" as another name for Baal.

[b]The least offensive name of the god in Mecca was Allah according to Muhammad's biographer, Ibn Hisham. He admits that the pagan Kinanah and Kouraish tribes called the supervising god of the Kaaba IHLAL. They called the Kaaba "BEIT- ALLAH", house of the god! (Van Netton, Allah Divine Demonic, pg. 94)

Notice earlier that Muhammad wanted to abandon the name of Allah, but decided to keep it since it was least offensive. We wonder what name would he have chose? Since his tribe extoled Hubal, don't be surprised if he would've chose this name. Hubal was the high deity, Allah was also known as the high god of the Arabs and then Ibn Hisham says that the LEAST OFFENSIVE NAME was Allah. If the least offensive name was Allah, this clearly tells us that the god of Mecca had more than one name. Note how IHLAL is found here. Note how again we see the linkage of Allah and Baal! Both were lord of the Kaaba and it was mention that the LEAST OFFENSIVE NAME WAS ALLAH and not THE ONLY NAME WAS ALLAH.[/b]

There is no excuse about Muslims not knowing about this since it is found in Islamic history. Muhammad's own biographer mentioned about this matter.


In Arabian archaeology a large number of inscriptions on rocks, tablets and walls, have pointed to the worship of a family of four; one male and his three daughters or goddesses. Those three goddesses are sometimes engraved together with Allah, represented by a crescent moon above them. But Allah was the Lord of the Kaaba. . .Lord of Manat, al-Lat, and al-Uzza. . .and even as Lord of Sirius. (Peters, Muhammad, 98)
And, His daughters were his associates, helpers and were themselves worshipped, after the manner of ancient Babylonian customs and symbolised by astronomical symbols. (Bergsson, Snorri G., Goddesses and Wica worship,'Neo-paganism at its most deceptive form, Islam and Goddess Worship Chpt. IV, pg. 15, 1998-2000); hence the infamous Satanic verses in Sura 53:
Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other?
These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries)
Whose intercession is to be hoped for.

These verses were later changed to effect a cover up, to try to cover up the polytheistic origins of allah (al-ilah) hubal that Muslims worship today.

Inscriptions with Baal's name have been found in Central Arabia at some oasis where Arabian inhabitants had settled. The great scholar William Robertson Smith argues that:
The most developed cults of Arabia belong not to the pure nomads, but to these agricultural and trading settlements, which the Bedouin visited only as pilgrims, not to pay stated homage to the lord of the land from which they drew their life, but in fulfilment of vows. (William Robertson Smith, The Religion of the Semites. The Fundamental Institutions (London, 1902), 109)

Muhammad was one of the many traders who traveled the Near East. His tribe was very wealthy and just like every other trader, they brought foreign gods to Arabia. Allah isn't domestic at all but a deity which came to Arabia after his Hajj from Sumer. If Muslims claim that he is the one true God and that he has always been known as this then we must ask them, "Where is your proof before Islam"?
THE PROOF THEY ALWAYS SEEK TO PROVIDE IS TO BE EVER TRYING TO STEAL VERSES FROM THE BIBLE WHICH THEY CLAIM IS CORRUPT. But of course the irony escapes the deluded Muslims!

We not only saw earlier that the Qurayish adopted Allah as Baal but we also know that:
In pre-Islamic days, called the Days of Ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity. . .At Mecca, Allah was the chief of the gods and THE SPECIAL DEITY OF THE QURAISH, THE PROPHET'S TRIBE. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manat, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life, Hubal and more than 300 others made up the pantheon. The central shrine at Mecca was the Kaaba, a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the pilgrimage. (Van Ess, John, Meet the Arab, New York, 1943, p. 29). THUS WE SEE MUSLIMS KISSING AND VENERATING A STONE IN IDOLATROUS FASHION DURING THEIR HAJJ!

Not only was Allah the special deity of Muhammad's tribe, but they worshipped him with 3 daughters. Muslims claim that Allah has always been the true god, but every tribe in Arabia had their own god which they believed to be their favorite. Muhammad isn't any different, nor will we treat him different just because he claimed that Allah was the God of Abraham. If any other proclaimed prophet excited from any other tribe, and claimed that their god is the One true God, their followers would believe them too. Hence, by taking this approach we must accept every other person who claims that there god is the true god.

The cult of a deity termed simply "the god" (al-ilah) was known throughout southern Syria and northern Arabia in the days before Islam--Muhammad's father was named 'Abd Allah ("Servant of Allah"--and was obviously of central importance in Mecca, where the building called the Ka'bah was indisputably his house. Indeed, the Muslims shahadah attests to precisely that point: the Quraysh, the paramount tribe of Mecca, were being CALLED ON BY MUHAMMAD TO REPUDIATE THE VERY EXISTENCE OF ALL OTHER GODS SAVE THIS ONE. It seems equally certain that Allah was not merely a god in Mecca but was widely regarded as the "HIGH god," the chief and head of the Meccan pantheon, whether this was the result, as has been argued, of a natural progression toward henotheism or of the growing influence of Jews and Christians in the Arabian Peninsula. . .Thus Allah was neither an unknown nor an unimportant deity to the Quraysh when Muhammad began preaching his worship at Mecca. (The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World, ed. John L. Esposito, New York, 1995, pp. 76-77)

Not only do we see why Allah became the god of Abraham, but now we know for a fact that this god was Baal before being stripped of its paganistic heritage. If you ask a Muslim how do they know that Allah is the God of Abraham, they will say because of the Quran, and the worship of him as the supreme god of the Arabs and Muhammad's tribe. This would seem good but they tend to use a selective approach, since Allah was originally worshipped first as Baal and then the Quran is basically a self-testimony by Muhammad.

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One of the common epithets, or term used to characterize the nature of a person or thing, of Baal is Thunderer. This word is r'mm, re'amin or rimmon. Now lets investigate about Rimmon from these sources:
In praising the ruler in line 17, the author says he set up worship to Shamash and Rammam. This is the god Rimmon mentioned in the Bible, II King 5:18: Naaman, the Assyrian General, says, "In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing." (Sayce in The Hibbert Lectures, p. 511-12, Royal Asiatic Society, London, 1932, Line 14-17)

Naaman had worshipped this god until he was converted to Yahweh through a healing experience in Israel. He was told by God's prophet to go in peace since his heart was right.
It is also interesting to find that Rammanu, who was Rimmon of Assyria, Brahman of India, and RAHMAN OF ISLAM, was also known in Babylon as IL-hallabu. (Langdon, Stephen H, The Mythology of All Races, Vol V, Archeological Institute of America, Boston, 1931 pg. 39)

Not only is it archeologically verified that names used for Baal were used by Muhammad but we know see that the verses in the Quran dealing with Baal, being a false god are nothing more than futile attempts to divert the origin of the name Allah.

Muslims can run but they cannot hide from history. The idolatrous gods of Islam: Hubal, al-ilah, allat, manat, al-Uzza, ar-Rahman etc, all combined in syncretistic fashion by Islam's false prophet Muhammad under the nomenclature of "the god" is plainly revealed in history. On this thread we have seen how Muhammad's father named the "slave of the god" was ransomed by divination from being offered up as a sacrifice to "the god". Supposedly the Muslims would have us believe that this god was unknown or forgotten before the advent of Muhammad's false ministry and yet we find Abdul-Muttalib, Muhammad's grandfather seeking to sacrifice his son, Muhammad's own father to the same al-ilah.

Behold your gods, O Islam!

See this pagan! Aren't you saying the same thing I said:

LagosShia:
Muhammad (sa) entered Makkah and triumphantly cleansed the Ka'bah from all the idols that were inside and used his own hands to destroy and break al-lat and al-uzza and the over 300 arabian idols placed therein.what a shame for anyone to deny that!!!

^How is this above different from this that I wrote?

aletheia:
All we see is that Allah was a high god with 3 daughters, while being the incestual mate of another one, ALLAT. We must wonder why is there nothing ever found to prove that Allah was never worshipped as a god without any consorts? The only thing Muslims try an use to offer in promoting Allah's monotheism is the Quran. But the Quran isn't from pre-Islamic Arabia and is neither a witnesses or an authority in pre-Islamic Arabia. Also notice that Allah was the name of A GOD, not the name of THE GOD OF ABRAHAM. This Muslim argument about this matter is lacking any historical support. This factor is very intriguing indeed.

If we are to base Islamic argument on the idea of "Allah" being the true God because he is the high god, then every other culture who has a high god is also the same as the true god. Is Zeus the word for god in Greek? No it's theos, Is Brahman the name for God in India? No. Muhammad took the high god name "Allah" and called him the God of Abraham because it was his favorite deity as well as the special deity of his tribe, the Quraish.

Moreover who was Abdullah supposed to be offered in sacrifice to? Here is a hint as to the identity of the god:

---

Another one of Allah's daughters is Al-Uzza. She is also mentioned as an intecessor in the Satanic verses along with Manat and Allat. History shows that:
AL-UZZA WAS BROUGHT TO MECCA BY THE QURAYSH and enjoined to the already established Kaaba worship, but she probably was a local deity in Mecca since the time of Amr ibn Lubayy. IN MUHAMMAD'S TIME, al-Uzza was the most important of the Meccan local deities, perhaps save for HUBAL. Her main sanctuary was in a valley called Hurad, just outside Mecca. It was complete with a haram and a sacrificial altar. (Peter, Muhammad, pg. 110)

This is very striking indeed because it shows how gods (in this case Uzza) was brought from other lands but most importantly it reveals the most important local deity. This deity was Hubal a.k.a "The Lord". This is amazing because Hubal who was Baal was known by the Arabs before Islam, especially the Qurayish (Muhammad's tribe), and even during Muhammad's time as Allah!! In Islamic history Allah is known as the lord of the Kaaba. Since Hubal is known as "The lord" and Allah is known as the lord of the Kaaba, then Allah would be the Hubal of the Kaaba, which explains why the Qurayish used the name "Allah" as another name for Baal.

[size=14pt]The least offensive name of the god in Mecca was Allah according to Muhammad's biographer, Ibn Hisham.[/size] He admits that the pagan Kinanah and Kouraish tribes called the supervising god of the Kaaba IHLAL. [size=14pt]They called the Kaaba "BEIT- ALLAH", house of the god![/size] (Van Netton, Allah Divine Demonic, pg. 94)

Notice earlier that Muhammad wanted to abandon the name of Allah, but decided to keep it since it was least offensive. We wonder what name would he have chose? Since his tribe extoled Hubal, don't be surprised if he would've chose this name. Hubal was the high deity, Allah was also known as the high god of the Arabs and then Ibn Hisham says that the LEAST OFFENSIVE NAME was Allah. If the least offensive name was Allah, this clearly tells us that the god of Mecca had more than one name. Note how IHLAL is found here. Note how again we see the linkage of Allah and Baal! Both were lord of the Kaaba and it was mention that the LEAST OFFENSIVE NAME WAS ALLAH and not THE ONLY NAME WAS ALLAH.

There is no excuse about Muslims not knowing about this since it is found in Islamic history. Muhammad's own biographer mentioned about this matter.


In Arabian archaeology a large number of inscriptions on rocks, tablets and walls, have pointed to the worship of a family of four; one male and his three daughters or goddesses. Those three goddesses are sometimes engraved together with Allah, represented by a crescent moon above them. But Allah was the Lord of the Kaaba. . .Lord of Manat, al-Lat, and al-Uzza. . .and even as Lord of Sirius. (Peters, Muhammad, 98)
And, His daughters were his associates, helpers and were themselves worshipped, after the manner of ancient Babylonian customs and symbolised by astronomical symbols. (Bergsson, Snorri G., Goddesses and Wica worship,'Neo-paganism at its most deceptive form, Islam and Goddess Worship Chpt. IV, pg. 15, 1998-2000); hence the infamous Satanic verses in Sura 53:
Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other?
These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries)
Whose intercession is to be hoped for.


Inscriptions with Baal's name have been found in Central Arabia at some oasis where Arabian inhabitants had settled. The great scholar William Robertson Smith argues that:
The most developed cults of Arabia belong not to the pure nomads, but to these agricultural and trading settlements, which the Bedouin visited only as pilgrims, not to pay stated homage to the lord of the land from which they drew their life, but in fulfilment of vows. (William Robertson Smith, The Religion of the Semites. The Fundamental Institutions (London, 1902), 109)

Muhammad was one of the many traders who traveled the Near East. His tribe was very wealthy and just like every other trader, they brought foreign gods to Arabia. Allah isn't domestic at all but a deity which came to Arabia after his Hajj from Sumer. If Muslims claim that he is the one true God and that he has always been known as this then we must ask them, "Where is your proof before Islam"?
THE PROOF THEY ALWAYS SEEK TO PROVIDE IS TO BE EVER TRYING TO STEAL VERSES FROM THE BIBLE WHICH THEY CLAIM IS CORRUPT. But of course the irony escapes the deluded Muslims!

We not only saw earlier that the Qurayish adopted Allah as Baal but we also know that:
In pre-Islamic days, called the Days of Ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity. . .At Mecca, Allah was the chief of the gods and THE SPECIAL DEITY OF THE QURAISH, THE PROPHET'S TRIBE. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manat, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life, Hubal and more than 300 others made up the pantheon. [size=14pt]The central shrine at Mecca was the Kaaba, a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the pilgrimage.[/size] (Van Ess, John, Meet the Arab, New York, 1943, p. 29). THUS WE SEE MUSLIMS KISSING AND VENERATING A STONE IN IDOLATROUS FASHION DURING THEIR HAJJ!

Not only was Allah the special deity of Muhammad's tribe, but they worshipped him with 3 daughters. Muslims claim that Allah has always been the true god, but every tribe in Arabia had their own god which they believed to be their favorite. Muhammad isn't any different, nor will we treat him different just because he claimed that Allah was the God of Abraham. If any other proclaimed prophet aroused from any other tribe, and claimed that their god is the One true God, their followers would believe them too. Hence, by taking this approach we must accept every other person who claims that there god is the true god.

The cult of a deity termed simply "the god" (al-ilah) was known throughout southern Syria and northern Arabia in the days before Islam--Muhammad's father was named 'Abd Allah ("Servant of Allah"--and was obviously of central importance in Mecca, where the building called the Ka'bah was indisputably his house. Indeed, the Muslims shahadah attests to precisely that point: the Quraysh, the paramount tribe of Mecca, were being CALLED ON BY MUHAMMAD TO REPUDIATE THE VERY EXISTENCE OF ALL OTHER GODS SAVE THIS ONE. It seems equally certain that Allah was not merely a god in Mecca but was widely regarded as the "HIGH god," the chief and head of the Meccan pantheon, whether this was the result, as has been argued, of a natural progression toward henotheism or of the growing influence of Jews and Christians in the Arabian Peninsula. . .Thus Allah was neither an unknown nor an unimportant deity to the Quraysh when Muhammad began preaching his worship at Mecca. (The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World, ed. John L. Esposito, New York, 1995, pp. 76-77)

Not only do we see why Allah became the god of Abraham, but now we know for a fact that this god was Baal before being stripped of its paganistic heritage. If you ask a Muslim how do they know that Allah is the God of Abraham, they will say because of the Quran, and the worship of him as the supreme god of the Arabs and Muhammad's tribe. This would seem good but they tend to use a selective approach, since Allah was originally worshipped first as Baal and then the Quran is basically a self-testimony by Muhammad.

More evidence about Allah and Baal can be seen once we examine the epithets of Baal:
Ba`al- Common epithets of Ba`al

Most High Prince/Master - al iyn. b`l, al iyanu ba`lu

Conqueror of Warriors - al iy. qrdm, al iyu qarradima

Mightiest, Most High, Supreme, Powerful, Puissant - al'iyn, al'iyanu, aleyin, eleyin, aliyin, eliyan, elioun

Warrior - dmrn, damaron, Demarous (Greek)

Hadd, Haddad, Hadad, Hadu, Adad, Addu - hdd

Prince, Master of the Earth - zebul ba`al ?aretz or zubulu ba`lu ?aretsi

Pidar, uncertain meaning, possibly Bright, Flash - pdr, Pidar

Rider on the Clouds - rkb `rpt, rakab arpat or rakibu `arpati

Thunderer - r`mn, rimmon or re`amin

Gapen & Ugar, Vineyard and Field, Baal's pages or messengers - gepanu wa ugaru (IBID)

One of the common epithets, or term used to characterize the nature of a person or thing, of Baal is Thunderer. This word is r'mm, re'amin or rimmon. Now lets investigate about Rimmon from these sources:
In praising the ruler in line 17, the author says he set up worship to Shamash and Rammam. This is the god Rimmon mentioned in the Bible, II King 5:18: Naaman, the Assyrian General, says, "In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing." (Sayce in The Hibbert Lectures, p. 511-12, Royal Asiatic Society, London, 1932, Line 14-17)

Naaman had worshipped this god until he was converted to Yahweh through a healing experience in Israel. He was told by God's prophet to go in peace since his heart was right.
It is also interesting to find that Rammanu, who was Rimmon of Assyria, Brahman of India, and RAHMAN OF ISLAM, was also known in Babylon as IL-hallabu. (Langdon, Stephen H, The Mythology of All Races, Vol V, Archeological Institute of America, Boston, 1931 pg. 39)

Not only is it archeologically verified that names used for Baal were used by Muhammad but we know see that the verses in the Quran dealing with Baal, being a false god are nothing more than futile attempts to divert the origin of the name Allah.

aletheia:
Muslims can run but they cannot hide from history. The idolatrous gods of Islam: Hubal, al-ilah, allat, manat, al-Uzza, ar-Rahman etc, all combined in syncretistic fashion by Islam's false prophet Muhammad under the nomenclature of "the god" is plainly revealed in history. On this thread we have seen how Muhammad's father named the "slave of the god" was ransomed by divination from being offered up as a sacrifice to "the god". Supposedly the Muslims would have us believe that this god was unknown or forgotten before the advent of Muhammad's false ministry and yet we find Abdul-Muttalib, Muhammad's grandfather seeking to sacrifice his son, Muhammad's own father to the same al-ilah.

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Each Arabian tribe adopted their own form of Babylonian deity and Allah is no exception. Extensive study into the history of Allah shows nothing more than a pagan god and nothing more. From it's origins of the god An in Sumer, Allah has seemed to have kept his high god status all the way to Mecca. We must reiterate again that both the Mesopotamians like the Arabs use the god name for virtually every deity. We will look into that in greater detail also.
1. Before Islam Allah was reported to be know as:
--the supreme of a pantheon of gods.
--THE NAME OF A god whom the Arabs worshipped.
--the chief god of the pantheon.
--Ali-ilah, the god, the supreme.
--the all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally unknowable.
--the predeterminer of everyone's life) destiny).
--chief of the gods.
--THE SPECIAL DEITY OF THE QURAISH.
--having three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus), Manah (Destiny), and Alat.
--having the idol temple at Mecca under his name (House of Allah).
--THE MATE OF ALAT, the goddess of fate.
(Afshari, M. J., Is Allah The Same God As The God Of The Bible?, pg. 6)

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Behold your gods, O Islam!

^Paul, Paul, Paul. . .I laugh at your foolishness. You are chasing after Paul while deliberately ignoring your idolatory.

Idolatrous minions of syncretistic al-ilah; follower of Muhammad the false, demon-possessed prophet of Hubal a.k.a. as allah. History shows:

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Allah is a devil from Sumer, a pagan god from Babylon.

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Muhammad and the name Allah

Muhammed at one point WANTED TO ABANDON THE RATHER GENERIC NAME OF ALLAH for a more colorful one, but he later realized that Allah was holding the folks' attention just fine. (Hastings, James, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Scribners, NY pg. 248)

If Muhammad originally thought of Allah as Muslims do today and would want us to believe that he did, why would he try to change the name of a god who was supposed to be the Almighty? The Quran nor the Hadith literature says anything about this matter and we wonder why is there no mention of this? When Muhammad spoke the Satanic verses he was visited by Gabriel and was told about his mistake, but would God allow a human man to take his name and then change it to what the man wants it to be? Blasphemy.
HOW MUHAMMAD DECIDED TO KEEP ALLAH is simply a matter of which god HE THOUGHT WOULD BE UNIVERSALLY LEAST OFFENSIVE to any particular tribe of Arabs around Mecca. (Muller, Herbert J, The Loom of History, Harper and Brothers, NY pg. 264-265)

From this we have seen that the name Allah has been retained basically because Muhammad was afraid to offend any tribe. That means both the name Allah and the origins of Islam comes from the thinking and idea of the Prophet. It would literally be unimaginable if we saw any biblical prophets try to change the name of God. It would cause an uproar. However we don't see anything like this with Muhammad. If the Arabs knew that he would change the name of the so-called Almighty God they would surely be angry at Muhammad. This shows us that Allah was not really considered the god of Abraham but just the usual supreme deity found in every heathen culture on earth since the beginning of time.

Islamic Sheikh, Ibrahim Al-Qattan, in a lecture given to the International Progress Association in Vienna, said:
The religion of Arabia can be traced by the epigraphic and inscription evidence back to 500 BC, or 1000 years before Muhammed. He said that they had gods named Baal Shamin, Dhu-Samawi, Rahman (which they got from Syria, Persia, and the pagan Cabalist Jews), and Allah. (Al-Qattan, Sheikh Ibrahim, Lecture on Monotheism, I P O Journal, Vienna, pg. 26-29)

Now if the Quran says not to take Jews as friends then why is Muhammad using a name by PAGAN JEWS?
Allah was the highest deity, and his name was inscribed in stone BY JEWISH TRADERS along the Arabian trade routes. These paganized Jews also called him Rahman, while the Arabs called him Allah. (Ibid)

We don't see Elohim, the God of the Jews, mentioned here but a pagan deity called Rahman. This same pagan deity was called Allah and was later used by Muhammad in the Quran! These traders were described as being pagan and if since they were Jews we would expect to see EL, Yahweh or Elohim mentioned as the name of God. However these Jews were pagan and their high pagan god was name Allah. This should be a note to us all in telling about how Allah has nothing to do with Elohim and that the original concept dealing with the Jewish God is non-existent since these Jews never called Allah the God of Abraham but extoled Rahman, a idol, who is mentioned in the Bible as being the god Rimmon. More on this later.

Many other deities were known as Allah and in order for us to believe the Islamic argument that Allah was always the one true god. Then we must also believe that the other gods he was is also the same god. Muslims may claim that the other deities were wrong and therefore should be discarded but however this is based on mere opinion. If we use this same argument with the people who worshipped these other Allah deities, they would claim that the Islamic idea of Allah is also wrong. Hence we would be drawn into an endless circular debate about which deity is the true Allah. Since historically neither claim can be verified we are left with basically conjecture. However we will look at some of these other deities which used the name Allah also.
A stele is dedicated to Qos-allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra (Glueck 516). Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush DISPLAYS A STAR AND CRESCENT (Browning 28).

Allah is also known as Qos-allah but one thing that is very interesting is the part in which the star crescent is found before Islam in Petra. This symbol was first used as symbol of a older pagan deity. Ironically this deity also had the name Allah and just like the modern version used the crescent star. Muslims who attack other religions as being pagan should really be careful since historical inscriptions are showing also that Islam did clearly descend from a pagan heritage.

More and more historical evidence proves that Allah isn't an Arabic word, and was a pagan deity by looking further into history. Persia (Modern-day Iran) has existed long before Arabia and Islam.
Archeologists have found Persian coins in South Arabia that have been dated around 350 B.C. With the record of Persian taxation of Yemen along with this, we see that Persian influence was in Arabia long time ago. (Zwemmer, Current Topics, p. 97, H G Wells, , By Zwemmer, MWJ, Vol. XXIX, 1939)

This is a very important step for us to note since the Quran does contain many Persian words and Islam also has many Persian-like practices. What is more revealing than that is this:
In 520 B.C. Darius, King of Persia built his citadel in a city called Allanush (derived from Allah). Darius grand headquarters WAS NAMED ALLANUSH, IN HONOR OF ALLAH (Olmstead, A T, History of Assyria, Scribner, NY, 1923)

The Persians were clearly a pagan culture and it is interesting that the name Allah, the same of Islam is used as one of the many pagan Persian deities. If Muslims try to interject and claim that Allah was known as the true god and found his way to Persia then they are required to produce their proof if they are truthful. History however will disprove that claim since nowhere is it mentioned before Islam in Persia or Arabia in which Allah was known as the same God of the Jews but in a different name due to culture.

Muslims can run but they cannot hide from history. The idolatrous gods of Islam: Hubal, al-ilah, allat, manat, al-Uzza, ar-Rahman etc, all combined in syncretistic fashion by Islam's false prophet Muhammad under the nomenclature of "the god" is plainly revealed in history. On this thread we have seen how Muhammad's father named the "slave of the god" was ransomed by divination from being offered up as a sacrifice to "the god". Supposedly the Muslims would have us believe that this god was unknown or forgotten before the advent of Muhammad's false ministry and yet we find Abdul-Muttalib, Muhammad's grandfather seeking to sacrifice his son, Muhammad's own father to the same al-ilah.

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Each Arabian tribe adopted their own form of Babylonian deity and Allah is no exception. Extensive study into the history of Allah shows nothing more than a pagan god and nothing more. From it's origins of the god An in Sumer, Allah has seemed to have kept his high god status all the way to Mecca. We must reiterate again that both the Mesopotamians like the Arabs use the god name for virtually every deity. We will look into that in greater detail also.
1. Before Islam Allah was reported to be know as:
--the supreme of a pantheon of gods.
--THE NAME OF A god whom the Arabs worshipped.
--the chief god of the pantheon.
--Ali-ilah, the god, the supreme.
--the all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally unknowable.
--the predeterminer of everyone's life) destiny).
--chief of the gods.
--THE SPECIAL DEITY OF THE QURAISH.
--having three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus), Manah (Destiny), and Alat.
--having the idol temple at Mecca under his name (House of Allah).
--THE MATE OF ALAT, the goddess of fate.
(Afshari, M. J., Is Allah The Same God As The God Of The Bible?, pg. 6)

There is no documented history of Allah's singularity. All we see is that Allah was a high god with 3 daughters, while being the incestual mate of another one, ALLAT. We must wonder why is there nothing ever found to prove that Allah was never worshipped as a god without any consorts? The only thing Muslims try an use to offer in promoting Allah's monotheism is the Quran. But the Quran isn't from pre-Islamic Arabia and is neither a witnesses or an authority in pre-Islamic Arabia. Also notice that Allah was the name of A GOD, not the name of THE GOD OF ABRAHAM. This Muslim argument about this matter is lacking any historical support. This factor is very intruiging indeed.

If we are to base Islamic argument on the idea of "Allah" being the true God because he is the high god, then every other culture who has a high god is also the same as the true god. Is Zeus the word for god in Greek? No it's theos, Is Brahman the name for God in India? No. Muhammad took the high god name "Allah" and called him the God of Abraham because it was his favorite deity as well as the special deity of his tribe, the Quraish.

HISchild:
@ecenter

numbers in the holy Bible have spiritual meanings, GOD knows all things.

with re: to the 144,000, 12 = completeness, 12 x 12 = 144, therefore, a complete fulness of the number of people (the spiritual nation of GOD, The Israel / Church of GOD in CHRIST JESUS The Lord) whom GOD, The Lord JESUS CHRIST, will mercifully save from humanity shall be saved and dwell with HIM for evermore. Praise The Lord!

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." - John 6:37

^
Not just numbers but names as well. Let us examine the 144,000 as written in Revelation.

[b](Rev 14:1 [KJV])
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

(Rev 7:4-9 [KJV])
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

[/b]

Joagbaje:
The 144,000 are the individuals sealed from the natural 12 tribes of isarel. 12,000 from each if the tribes.

As we see from chapter 7; this view is incorrect for the list of the 12 tribes given in Revelation 7 does not correspond to the natural 12 tribes of Israel. Moreover notice the sequence of events:
1. "And I heard the number of them which were sealed:" As HISchild rightly points out:

HISchild:
with re: to the 144,000, 12 = completeness, 12 x 12 = 144, therefore, a complete fulness of the number of people (the spiritual nation of GOD, The Israel / Church of GOD in CHRIST JESUS The Lord) whom GOD, The Lord JESUS CHRIST, will mercifully save from humanity shall be saved and dwell with HIM for evermore. Praise The Lord!

144,000 = 12 x 12 x 1000, signifying the fullness and perfection of God's redemptive plan.
2. After hearing, John then sees: "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"
The 144,000 is actually a great multitude which no man can number. . .the 144,000 being symbolic of the perfection of God's plan in their lives.

There is a message in Revelation 7 hidden in plain sight in the names of the sons of Jacob as written there.
In the order listed these are the names:
Judah,
Reuben,
Gad,
Asher,
Napthali,
Manasseh,
Simeon,
Levi,
Issachar,
Zebulon,
Joseph,
Benjamin.

Not only do we find that the names are not listed in order of birth or prominence but we find that Dan is not listed.

The message is given to us in the meanings of the names in Revelation 7. This is the message:

1. Judah = "I will praise the Lord"
2. Reuben = "He has looked on me"
3. Gad = "Granted good fortune"
4. Asher = "Happy am I"
5. Naphtali = "My wrestling"
6. Manasseh = "Making me to forget"
7. Simeon = "God hears me"
8. Levi = "Joined to me"
9. Issachar = "Purchased Me"
10. Zebulun = "Dwelling"
11. Joseph = "God will add to me"
12. Benjamin = "Son of His right hand"

And so. . .notice what happens when the meaning of the names are combined, in the same order, into a paragraph:
"I will praise the Lord for He has looked on me and granted good fortune. Happy am I because my wrestling God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling. God will add to me the Son of His right hand." (The words in italics are supplied to complete each thought.)

Muslims are the biggest idolaters of all. That they claim a monotheistic faith does not equate to worshiping the One True God, rather they are worshiping one false god (which is actually a syncretistic mixture of several gods).

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Now we will see what the Quran and the Bible say about God. We cannot cover the whole question, but we will present enough to see that the Koran and the Bible disagree violently regarding God.

THE QURAN DESCRIBES ITS GOD

Sura 3:26 says, O Allah! Owner of sovereignty! Thou givest sovereignty unto whom Thou wilt, and thou withdrawest sovereignty from whom Thou wilt."

According to the Koran, Allah shares his sovereignty with others. This is explained if we read the Hadith where we find that Muhammad took charge of every little detail of the Muslim's life, such things as when to blow the nose, how to wear shoes, when not to pass gas, how to urinate, how to conduct intimate union in marriage, and how to kneel. We will look at some of these later, but it becomes clear who Muhammad meant when he said Allah shares sovereignty. Muhammad meant himself. He was a Prime Minister god to his followers. They could not relate to Allah, who was far away, but Muhammad was god on the spot, day and night, around the clock.

Muhammad is indeed a god to Muslims when we consider how quick and eager they are to kill and destroy at any perceived slight to this false prophet.

Al Hadis, Book 1, Chapter 6, no. 166, Ibn Abbas reported: One day I was behind the messenger of Allah. He said, 'O boy! protect Allah, and he will protect you, ' "

This is even more puerile. Allah has a deal going. A favor's a favor, right? Watch out for Allah as if he has some enemy that only you can keep away from him. Dear Muslim friend, this is the prophet speaking revelation from Allah. It cannot be questioned by a devout Muslim. Please start to think and reason about this business.

Comment: This explains why Muslims are always eager to protect their god: he is too weak to protect himself.

Al Hadis, book 4, Chapter 42, no. 47, Abu Razin Al-Uqaili reported: I asked: O Messenger of Allah: will everybody of us see on the Resurrection Day his Lord in his open form? "Yes" he replied. I asked: And what is the sign of that in His creation? He said: "O Abu Razin! is it not that everyone of you sees the moon in the full moon-lit night in its Unclad form?"

So, according to Allah and Muhammad, his prophet, the moon is the physical manifestation of Allah. It is interesting to note that the moon was a goddess image in Arabia before Islam, and it was called Allat. Allat, the moon goddess, and Al-Uzza, or Venus, got into the Quran temporarily in the "Satanic verses." But, according to Muhammad, this ancient pagan symbol, the moon, is the physical representation of Allah. It is curious also that Muhammad used the word "Unclad." From the beginning, men have tried to UnCloth their gods. The Roman Catholic Church has Unclad prophets, Mary with her bosom hanging out, Jesus nearly Unclad, and angels totally Unclad all over the ceiling of many of its European churches. The Greeks presented their gods Unclad to the people.

JEHOVAH GOD PRESENTS HIMSELF TO HIS PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE

Romans 9:20-21, Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What potter could give his power to make pots to the pots? The Bible gives us a picture of a total sovereign, Jehovah God, who shares his authority with no one. What a contrast to Allah!

John 15:5, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus made it clear that the child of God is totally on the receiving end 100% of the time with regard to power. Why? The Divine power is not shared, it is dispensed to flow through the saint.

Romans 7:18, For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The God of the Bible did not share his sovereign power with the Apostle Paul. See next who had total control of the power.

Philippians 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

According to the Bible, God shares none of His sovereignty with man, especially not with self-exalting prophets like Muhammad. He works in His children by allowing them to do His work under His total control.

Remember the Hadith of Muhammad above-- Al Hadis, book 4, Chapter 42, no. 47, Abu Razin Al-Uqaili reported: I asked: O Messenger of Allah: will everybody of us see on the Resurrection Day his Lord in his open form? "Yes" he replied.. . .

Colossians 2:8-9, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Those who saw Jesus in Israel during his lifetime are the only ones who have seen what God looks like. God made man in His likeness (Genesis 1:26), so Jesus showed us the likeness of God. Jesus said himself that those who saw him saw the Father in full representation:

John 14:9-11. . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

If Muhammad wanted to show the sovereign power of Jehovah God as Jesus did, Muhammad would have had to do thousands of healings and cast devils out of people. We will see later that Muhammad himself got sick, and was himself bewitched and ensorcelled. Muhammad did not behave like the God of the Bible, and he did not do the works under God's power.

Hebrews 2:9, But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

For those of us today, including prophets in Arabia in 625 AD, we have to walk by faith without begging for physical representations of God as Abu Razin did in Al Hadis, book 4, Chapter 42, no. 47 above.

Hebrews 11:1, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Regarding Allah looking like the moon, Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem. . .

The moon is not a picture of the God of the Bible because God is never confounded. Perhaps this suits Allah though, for he will be confounded one day by Jehovah God. Jehovah CREATED the moon. The moon is not a picture of God.

We have seen that the Quran and Hadith have a very poor view of Allah. Like a pagan Greek god, Allah shares his sovereignty with man, he needs protection. In the heart of his followers, he is represented by the moon rather than revealed by the Prophet Muhammad, as Jesus Christ revealed Jehovah to his followers.

True Christians refuse to blaspheme God by demanding a physical representation of God, and this condemns the idol worship of the Roman Catholic Churches as well as Muhammad's moon pictures. It is very clear that Allah is alien to the God of the Bible. 

Comment: This shows why the moon is given such prominence in the idolatrous religion of Islam.

@Topic: NO!

Allah means "the god". The question which most Muslims and Christians are ignorant of the answer is this: What god?
An examination of the family history of Islam's false prophet will yield the answer. What was Muhammad's father's name? Abdullah - Slave of the god (allah) What god?

What follows is an illustrative incident from the family history of Muhammad from Tabari and Ibn Ishaq (Muslim historians) that reveals the nature of "the god"

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Muttalib was struggling to clear the well of Zamzam when: Ishaq:66/Tabari VI:2 "It is alleged, and Allah only knows the truth, that Abdul Muttalib encountered opposition when he was digging Zamzam. He vowed that if given ten sons, to make his labor less arduous and to protect him, he would sacrifice one of them to Allah at the Ka'aba." Bad move, because eventually he had ten sons. So, foolishly faithful to the rocks, he tossed divining arrows at Hubal's feet to determine which son should die. Ishaq:67 "They used to conduct their affairs according to the decisions of the arrows." His youngest lost. The boy's name was Abd-Allah, or Slave-to-Allah.

Now why would someone name a kid "Slave-to-Allah" a generation before Islam’s prophet claimed Allah was the creator-god of the universe?

The answer is as embarrassing as any in the annals of religious lore. For all Muhammad really did was promote one of the existing Meccan idols, the moon god Allah, above Hubal, Al-Lat, Manat, Al-Uzza, and hundreds of others.

Islamic scholar Montgomery Watt, one of the English translators of Tabari, adds an interesting footnote. He says, "The name [not word] Allah has throughout been [wrongly] translated as 'God.' It should be kept in mind, however, that in the pre-Islamic period it does not necessarily mean "God" in a monotheistic sense. It is known from the Qur'an (29:61 and 39:38) that many pre-Islamic Arabs believed in Allah as a god who was superior to the other gods whom they also recognized."

Allah was a name, much like the Judeo-Christian "Yahweh." But Muslims desperately needed the world to see it otherwise. For if Allah was a proper name - not a word - their religion was a fraud. The creator of the universe can't be a pagan god, no matter how big a stick Muhammad swung. And Allah can't be Yahweh any more than I can be George Washington.

Arabic, like Hebrew before it, is a Semitic language. In Hebrew, "el," was the word for god - lower case "g" - as in idols. Elohiym was used with the article to convey "God" with a capital "G." In Arabic, "el" became "il." Then, over time, Arabs derived a secondary word for god, "ilah." With "al" being the Arabic word for "the," Muslims would have us believe that "Allah" is a contraction of "al" and "ilah." But the first pillar of Islam contradicts this claim when it says: "There is no ilah but Allah."

If "Allah" were the Arabic word for god it would have been written: "There is no allah but Allah. Moreover, the Qur'an itself uses "Ilah" when Allah claims to be "the God of Abraham" (Qur'an 2:132). And that ends the debate because the only way Muslims can claim Allah, not Ilah, is the Arabic word for "God" is for the Qur'an to be errant or for its author to be either ignorant or deceitful. Further, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Islamic traditions like the one we just reviewed that confirm that Allah was the name of a well-known pagan deity (at least in Mecca). Their own scriptures profess that Allah had an ignominious rule as a Meccan rock idol centuries before he was transformed from god to God, from an ilah to Allah. All of which serves to destroy the most essential Islamic myth: "We all worship the same God."

Back in Mecca: Ishaq:67 "When Abdul Muttalib had ten sons grown to maturity and he knew that they would protect him, he told them of his vow, and called on them to keep faith with Allah in this matter. They expressed their obedience, and asked what they should do. He replied, 'Let every one of you take an arrow, write his name on it, and bring it to me.' They did this, and he went into the presence of Hubal in the interior of the Ka'aba. Hubal was the greatest of the idols of Quraysh in Mecca." Ibn Ishaq, the earliest compiler of Muslim Traditions, just told us that the high god of the Ka'aba was Hubal - not Allah. Doesn't this make Allah (also the second god of the Qur'an following Ar-Rahman) a second rate deity?

Papa Muttalib started having second thoughts. So he went off and consulted with a sorceress, hoping to get the "right" advice. Tabari VI:2 "By Allah! You shall never sacrifice him but you must get an excuse for not doing so." This sounds innocent enough until you realize that the person swearing by Allah is a Devil worshipper. "There is a sorceress who has a familiar spirit; ask her, and you will know what to do. If she commands you to sacrifice him, you will sacrifice him, and if she commands you to do something which offers relief to you and to him, you can accept it." Sorceresses are occult mediums: in other words, witches. Their familiar spirits are demons.

The noose around Islam’s neck is tightening. We have multiple gods in the Ka'aba and a witch deciding the fate of Muhammad’s father. "So they went to Medina where they discovered that the sorceress had moved to Khaybar. They rode until they reached her. She said, 'Retire from me until my familiar spirit visits me and I can ask him. Abdul Muttalib stood and prayed to Allah." Now there's a picture: idolaters praying to Allah in Islamic fashion in the presence of a Devil worshiper. So, what do you think Satan’s representative had to say? Would she pardon Muhammad’s papa and allow Islam to be born?

Lucifer must like Islam because,  "On the following day they went back. She said, 'Yes! News has come to me. How much is the blood-money among you.' They replied, 'Ten camels.' She said, 'Bring forward the young man and ten camels, and cast arrows. If they fall against the boy, add camels until your Lord [Would that be Satan, Hubal, or Allah?] is satisfied.'"

We continue with Ishaq's account: Tabari VI:5 "They returned to Mecca when they had all agreed on the matter, Abdul Muttalib stood and prayed to Allah inside the Ka'aba beside Hubal. The arrows fell against Abdallah, so they added ten camels, making twenty. With Muttalib standing and praying to Allah they went on this way ten times. Each time the arrows fell against Abdallah." Satan’s representative seems to have been considerably more accommodating. There is just one chance in 1024 that fifty-fifty odds will go awry ten times in a row.

Tabari explains the horror of it all: "Abdul Muttalib stood beside Hubal in the interior of the Ka'aba, calling upon Allah. The custodian of the arrows took and cast them, and the lot fell against Abdallah. So Muttalib took Abdallah by the hand. He grabbed a large knife. Then he went up to the idols Isaf and Nailah [the fornicating stones] who Quraysh used to slaughter their sacrifices, to sacrifice Abdullah."

But rather than slice his son's throat, Muttalib opted for one more cast of the divining arrows. They finally fell in favor of the boy. So Abdul, the stones, idols, gods, diviners, and sorcerers came to an understanding. Abdallah's life was spared. "Your Lord is satisfied at last. The camels were slaughtered and left there. No man or wild beast was turned back from eating them."

"Abdul Muttalib took Abdallah by the hand. It is alleged they passed by Umm Qattal bt. Abd al-Uzza [Slave-to-the-goddess-al-Uzza], the sister of Waraqa [the Hanif]. She was by the Ka'aba. When she looked at his face she said, 'Where are you going, Abdallah? I have seen many camels slaughtered for you, so sleep with me now.'" Sure, why not add a little prostitution into the mix. We've already got devil worship, paganism, gambling, and child abuse occurring around the Ka'aba.

Behold your gods; O Islam!

These incidents are well recorded by Muslim historians, so they are not made-up stories.