Even to this day see how easy it is for Yorubas at their Core to welcome foreign influences with so much Joy and vigour but it is hard for them to believe they welcomed a Benin prince oduduwa
samuk: This is what happens when you try to build a fictional none existence fairytale. Look at how quickly their fairytales is eroding before their eyes. Benin that was destroyed and burned down with the Oba deposed is still standing and waxing strong, Ife and the Ooni that got all the backing from the British Colonial masters and western political class is already fading in less than two centuries of fairytales that was built of quick sound.
Today, they do more to claim Benin history rather than save their souls that's gradually being lost to the caliphate.
Fulani don chop their soul true true oo, even one of their monarchs there close to ife was even flaunting his Fulaniness with so much pride and vigour some time ago last I heard he even got a wife/yariya from the caliphate
This is what happens when you pride your canoe as a ship , if Eziza blow small breeze now ...........
Like I swear I was shocked that it was true! That it was solid fact! I notice this their new rubber stamp ooni is veering little by little to the Benin traditional mode of dressing .... Very Soon Edo go join the Fulani to share the spoils
AreaFada2: Efewestern, my uncle is greeted locally as "Ogie mwan ghato kpere". My ancestors before that too. The minute the first was appointed duke, as younger princes were back then and even now. The current one happens know Elawure and Enogie of Utese quite well. They are same dukes. The greeting is literally " Long Live our Lord". Ask any Benin person how they greet their local Enogie or Duke. At least, this is simple enough experiment you can conduct.
In the presence of Oba Erediauwa visiting us in 1980 the greetings were: Oba ghato kpere to the Oba and Ogiemwan ghato kpere to our father.
Are you implying that people were greeting our father as an Oba in the presence of Oba Erediauwa?
Haba!
To do conjectures online is one thing, at least what I recommended you to do is easy enough. Very cheap. I can even direct you to as many Enogie palaces as you wish. Just go and observe for a few hours. I will exclude our own so that you don't think it was fixed.
Kings of England were at one point called "King of England, Lord of Ireland and Duke of Normandy". Did it reduce them in any way or proved contradictory? No! Kings, even Pharaohs were regularly called "My Lord" by courtiers. How did it change anything?
Sorry, I don't want to be condescending but we should endeavour to read very widely to get a wider perspective of things.
Efe, I really expect you to know better than you are arguing.
Samuk Automaticmotor UGBE634 Gregyboy
Boss abeg enjoy some Ohenhen! You have done and keep on doing! More grace to your elbow Epa
samuk: RedboneSmith was already here, he got a bloody nose and ran away. He may just come back swigging after reading this my reply. Let me go and look for body armour for protection.
AreaFada2: Samuk, it would be improper for me to disclose private discussion with these personages in Eastern Yorubaland. How NL commentators believe the could possibly know more than the custodians is baffling to me. It goes beyond what is bolded above. I have nothing to gain by putting one side above the other. If anything, I even have much easier access on SW side.
Now regarding argument over Ogie, Enogie, etc between Efewestern and others, the example of Ogiame of Itsekhiri is enough to settle it. Iginuwa was sent as "Ogie Amen". That Ogie meaning is not different in origin to what other Edoid tribes have.
Ogie means Lord. As in one ruling over an area. In Benin view and purpose, it was not meant to be King in stature.
Of course, since the Ogie or Ovie is the ruler now in charge and with increased independence, exercising the power of a king, he came to be seen as a king. Was there any point in changing Ovie title to reflect his king status? In my view not at all! But Efe remember that those Ovies did not start out as a king. Ogisos did not start out as outright kings even. There were senior elders among elders of Benin quarters. Each Quarter produced an elder who will become next leader when the previous dies.
Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholor ancestors where among the elders when their head a brilliant idea to make himself king. The other 4 chiefs/elders, after intense negotiations, agreed but one one condition. That they should be permanent chiefs with near equal power to the king. They all agreed (swore at Erimwindu/shrine all Benin ancestors) that the king must ensure their sons inherit their titles and they must ensure the king's son or chosen heir inherits kingship. These elders laboured hard to wrestle control of Benin from Evian descendants and restore monarchy after Ogiso Owodo. They were fulfilling ancestral oath and also safeguarding their positions, since only a Ogiso direct blood descendant would be under oath to ensure the elders retain their position perpetually.
The Elders list later expanded to 7 to include Ezomo, Oloton and the Crown Prince. So the long match to kingship began somewhere for every ancient king.
Whatever title any tribe use to describe their king today is their choice. But we are looking at origins of names first. Nobody is disputing Ovie or Orodje meaning king to those people today.
UGBE634: stop attributing titles you are not sure of their origin to yorubaland. Asoron to Eson is so laughable, how sure are you it is not the other way round. Edohen and Odofin does not look alike, the family will actually laugh at you for such theories you postulate here,
That boy na complete i.diot! I swear I can't even hide my disgust ... I just can't!!!
AreaFada2: One quick correction. Aro and Ero are not same o. They are two different titles in Benin. That Edohen means Odofin is a mere conjecture. Edohen, Oliha, Ero and Eholo are the oldest titles. As old as Ogiso. They are actually village rulers, but now grown to meet Benin. I have read many SW writers' papers and theses with these errors. Funny that a very good paper published in SW traced Ijesha/Ilesha titles and their origins. It made it clear of their Benin origins. Yet Ife is nearby? Why then?
AreaFada2: Okoro is a breathing and living name in Benin o. Not lost. It even means "prince" as in Oba's son. I explained it in a reply to your post, I believe like 2 years ago. I even cited Oba Erediauwa as a student at Government College Ibadan when his British teacher asked him to have his letters addressed to him as Okoro Solomon Akenzua instead of Prince Solomon Akenzua. The Oyinbo was ignored of course. I know minimum 12 families in Benin called Okoro as surname. Okoro originally meant boy.
Ok, regarding age, before 1480 when Oba Olua sent his son to become Ogiame, there was no high-ranking ruler in Iwerre. How can Oba use in Iwerre become more rooted than in Benin?
What was the rank or title of Awujale of Ijebu and Olowo of Owo, the major places in Yorubaland people migrated from to Iwerre? The problem remains that people sill think that only a large tribe can give culture to a smaller tribe as they are seen today. Yorubas were not one until just 200 years ago. Owo man could not communicate with Oyo man. So they had different names for kings. Only standardised Oyo Yoruba that most now speak brought "unity" of tongue. I have a dialect that is around 90% similar to Iwerre one. Even closer to Usen. So I am not one to be told about it.
The reason Benin influence in Eastern Yorubaland was so big is that Eastern Yorubas saw other Yorubas as totally different. So they readily accepted influential Benin by and large, of course waxing and wanning.
These things are not just "mere common sense" stuff but of scholarship.
Efe, I will not re-explain Oba meaning in Benin. I did many times before. Read through old posts if you want to know. To claim deeper root of Oba in Benin means you do not know Benin in any depth.
I can tell you of at least 20 places that didn't use Oba title 110 to 50 years ago but now use Oba praise
Benin language I heard growing up is different from now. Never mind how people who left Benin 600 to 700 years ago would have dropped some words and retained others. Some words in my dialect in Edo sound archaic or even unknown in Eastern Yorubaland today. Those in their 80s and 90s over there understand virtually every word. Meaning those words may still have been used when they were growing up but obsolete now. It doesn't mean they didn't exist centuries ago there. Difference is while theirs was influenced a lot by Oyo dialect over last 150 years, ours was not.
I write all these epistles because of silent people reading them and for posterity.
samuk: I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, I thought he was genuinely seeking the truth, but when he started inventing theories that the yoruba themselves avoided, I knew he was a fanatic. As far as he was concerned, he was ready to say anything just to convince himself.
He started out by misrepresenting the palace traditions on Oduduwa, when he was corrected, he said Ekaladerhan died in Ughoton.
He was asked to explain why an established kingdom like Benin would have sent for a complete stranger from little know Ife to come and become their king. He said the Benin people most have been attacked and conquered. He completely refused to see how implausible the story is.
Anyway, how do you convince an Arisco supporter and anyone that lost out in a land dispute with his Enogie that Benin monarch is not yoruba.
I don't know how this so called lone home grown fairytales teller plans to accomplished what an army of yoruba fairytales tellers couldn't achieve on Nairaland.
It's best to ignore him.
You even give am benefit of doubt ... Me I don clock the i-diot ages ago!!
Thebadpolitican: Lol were did ososomaye originate from does it sound yoruba
If you cant answer this question I will urge every benin here to press the ban button in you, you can't just make claims because the internet is free to everyone
AutomaticMotors samuk davidnazee
You're not edo you swine....
I have said this several times!! That boy is not Edo I am even tired of saying it
AreaFada2: Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.
Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin. I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.
I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba.
Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.
Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin.
But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.
Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.
The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.
Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre?
I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.
AreaFada2: I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Beni and Isiko/Urhobo and how much much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?
When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.
Previously, each Ovies/Orodjes came to Benin to buy their title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovie did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear. When the British invade Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818. They were not sacrificial victims.
The whole body of work on these histories is entire massive subject of which people who comment know less than 0.05% If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to buy "Ovieship meant". A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book written in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and Benin origin. I meant rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.
The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continue doing ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.
Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was in indisposed). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin resolving the Dein of Agbor Saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. What are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.
We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s.
Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.
To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.
samuk: Until very recently the Benin people abdicated their responsibilities and allow others with ulterior motives to be writing our history. Various tribes are always in Benin doing all sorts of research to advance themselves. After Benin fell in 1897, various groups led by the yoruba started carving various aspects of the history for themselves. It was a scrabble..Whilst Eweka 2 was fighting to retain his father's stool, the yoruba with local collaborators was busy claiming the monarchy for themselves.
The saving grace is that the Europeans did a great job in documenting and archiving Benin history for over 400 years. Imagine if these archives were in Nigeria, they would have probably burned it down.
On God! The envy from mostly those south west elements is real!! The plotting, The Scheming ...all to eat from the ruins of our illustrious great empire .... Until they eat poison
samuk: Benin history is vast. Benin was the dominant force, kingdom and empire in ancient times. Benin history extended into the east, west and middle belt.
1. There is Benin/ Nupe-Igala relationship and Igala traditions acknowledged Benin dynasty in Igala land and seems to agree with the Imaguero history of Benin.
2. Olaudah Equiano who is believe to be Ibo referenced Benin in his book written in the 1700s as being his Kingdom, which means his enclave in the East (Igbo land) acknowledged Benin kingdom as the dominant kingdom in the 1700s.
3. There is Benin Lagos relationship recorded by the Europeans in 1602.
4. The Benin/Ida war was recorded in history by the European.
There is absolutely nothing that linked Benin to Ife throughout history until after the fall of Benin empire.
People with very limited knowledge of Benin history tried to understand Benin history from their local interactions with the kingdom in the past. An Urhobo perspective is different from Ika perspective. Igala traditions of Benin is different from Lagos traditions and perspective of Benin.
Benin history is huge and expensive, it's not a local Usen/Urhonigbe affair.
The Benin/Ife connection story reduces Benin history to insignificant, this is why experts whose Europeans ancestors have documented Benin history over the centuries can not stomach the disservice done to it.
Benin Kingdom had not mates in the past, present or future!
samuk: Below is another perspective on Benin history. This seems to have make more sense.
FACTS ABOUT PA IDU
1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin. 2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from. 3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from. 4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population, 5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them. 6. Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi. 7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior. 8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife. 9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people. 10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.
Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children. Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise Oba gha to kpere. Ise
AreaFada2: Let me tell you why. Whether Edoid groups were largely independent or dependent, most acknowledged Oba's superiority. Even those that were more independent sought Oba's confirmation or blessing. Even outside direct Edo areas.
For example, in 1818 (just yesterday in historical terms), Benin sacked Akure when the new Deji of Akure refused to accept instruments of office from Chief Osagwe, Oba Osemwende's emissary. The Deji even murdered Osague (a title also adopted by some Yoruba monarchies as Sagwe or Sawe as a chief). It was serious rebellion and breach of established order. Of course Oba demanded Deji's head physically and got it.
As for Warri, in 1480, Oba Olua sent his son Prince Iginuwa (Ginuwa) to go and be the Lord of the Seas as his new domain. There are various versions as to how this came about. But he was to be "Ogie Amen". About 8 or 9 years ago, the father of current Olu said was now a Christian and wanted to drop Ogiame title. His own family and Iwere youth protested. He was advised to retain it or abdicate. Gov. Uduaghan, Rita Lori Ogbegbor and others had to intervene. He retained the name to calm things. Iwere people said Ogiame is the tittle Iginuwa brought from Benin and there is no dropping it. Adding Olu to it fine. I posted the link to the story on NL before.
All rulers below the Oba were never called Oba in Benin Empire. They were seen as dukes/Enogie/Ogie/Enigie. In the same way Enogie of Utese and Enogie of Usen are seen today. If they were in Delta or outside Edo South, they might be officially called king by now.
Even when Lagos monarchy was founded by Oba Orhogbua of Benin, it was meant as a dukedom, under Benin and that was in Benin view the case until 1861 when Britain took over Lagos with Eleko Dosunmu. Lagos rulers did not even use Oba title before then but Eleko.
In essence, in Benin view, Oba was not just a King title but also an emperor. Therefore, no other ruler believed to have allegiance to Benin would bear Oba title. Even if their Ogie title, due to influence and size of their domain, would equate to kingship. Obas of Benin were administratively very precise. Names, titles and all were well-controlled. They always figured out ways to outmanoeuvre the rising powers and influence of Benin High Aristocracy and areas considered Benin territory, whatever people now say of their history post-1897 and especially in current 9ja with rise of ethnic nationalism. It marvelled Europeans already from 1470s.
I have read numerous PG and doctoral theses on Benin History by researchers from across the world and its quite amazing what they reveal everyday. From Oba Palace Musicology to Palace Societies to Councillors of State.
As for how long Oba title has existed, it was in Benin before Eweka 1 Dynasty. We have exhausted the history of the title here over the years in many threads and posts.
Today, nobody is superior over anyone. It doesn't feed anyone. History just has be straight.
Culture › Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 12:24am On Feb 06, 2023
