₦airaland Forum

^hilarious

He even added Boyle's law and charles' law.

Why don't you add occam's razor?

^you need to tone down the insult. If you want to debate people, certain level of respect has to be established.

Or you run the risk of closing minds even more.

Just saying#

CrazyMan: I'm not an atheist, I'm a christian...so as you have your beliefs in atheistism that there is no God and that Christianity is a religious folklore, then there's no need for me trying to convince you.

You've choosen a path and i wish you well in the path which you've choosen.

A little nugget,
Atheism is not a religion.

OK. I wonder when you will be back.

Wonder why NONE even attacked the post, only to go for the personality.

Fools? Fools?

Who exactly is a fool?

truthislight: cant you take a little sarcasm?

Ofcourse. I can.

So, take that little sarcasm about your name too.




Hehe.

fellis: It's a thing of the mind.

Woooooooooooaaaaaahhhhhhh

Mr_Anony: Wow! You asked for logical proof of God. I started laying down my premises, so far they have followed logically. Rather than accept them so that we can progress, you brand them "speculations".
Now logic is no longer good enough for you and the correct theory can only be proven by "experiment" and you only want to deal with "facts" ok that's fine.

The problem now is how do you know for sure that you actually know anything or that anything is a fact? I am quite sure that for most of the things you think you know, you rally don't know how you know them. You just accept them to be true. (but then never mind, that's another thing entirely. I'll let you be)

And I said your premises were logical.
Until you entered possibilities. It is possible for a supernatural realm to be present pre-this universe.
Then in your annoying trickery, you substituted that possibility and called it a FACT. That means you don't understand what we are doing.

What else can we do without experiment?
A supernatural realm may be possible
A multi-verse may be possible
A reverse-universe may be possible
A lot of things may be possible
#speculations# not only you have a theory. Others also follow logically to varying degrees i.e they are possible.

Is that hard for you to understand?

Mr_Anony: I haven't changed anything in my argument at all.
If I recall correctly I only said let us call a spaceless/timeless realm "supernatural" you may give it another name if you like. I even asked that you should not associate it with some preconceived notion. "First cause" wasn't even used in my argument with you. I was telling mkmyers45 why a first cause must exist. The possibility of an eternal being simply fits in the logic as I don't see why an eternal(timeless) being won't exist in a realm of timelessness.

I have not been dishonest with you neither have I tried to make you look foolish (I apologize if that's what it looks like). My argument has been the same. The problem is that you got hung on the words I was using and not the logic of the argument itself.

I see you have problems with the terms "supernatural realm", "eternal being" and "first cause" so I have removed the words you don't like but I have retained the argument so that you can fault the logic and not the words.

Now if you would please, could you show me the parts where my logic so far does not follow.

Your argument in red is correct logically to an extent. From there, you started your speculations. I agreed to go along because I sincerely thought you knew we were speculating what MAY, not what IS.

The correct theory can only be proven by experiment. The type currently being planned in cosmology.
I have no interest in speculating with you again. We discuss facts only. When I want to speculate, I will actually find someone that knows exactly what we are doing.

CrazyMan: You atheists on this forum should know that It’s hard to move forward when you don’t know where you’re headed or why.

Your answer to my question simply shows that you people (atheist) are even more confused than most christians.

If you follow the believe of some people including you like I bolded here some people look at reincarnation I believe. Or some sort of dream (like those from the movie 'inception'), among many other options.

Then it shows clearly that you're heading towards nowhere.

Allow me to further more stress that God’s plan gives us (his children) the answers to life’s most basic questions like, Where did I come from? What’s my purpose here? And, What happens when I die?

Knowing the answers gives us hope and helps us find peace and joy. You should also know that your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with your Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy.

But just as most of us leave our home and parents when we grow up, God knew you needed to do the same. He knew you couldn’t progress unless you left for a while. So he allowed you to come to earth to experience the joy—as well as pain—of a physical body.

One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight. God didn’t say it would be easy, but He promised His spirit would be there when we needed Him. Even though it feels like it sometimes, we’re not alone in our journey.

At least we christians have a strong believe on that matter. You atheists don't. If I sit ten different atheists and ask them this question, I strongly believe that they would give me ten different answers.

To be honest, I'd rather believe in the biblical definition than some reincarnation Or some sort of dream like those from the movie. Such believe sounds ridiculous.

Thus I come to a final conclusion by saying you guys are all confused...if not, prove me otherwise.

I see. You are chickening out. Don't worry, you are not the first, you will surely not be the last.

One more thing,
Why do you like attacking something completely irrelevant in a post? Wiegraf made sure to point out the irrelevant part of his post yet that's the only thing you can refute? Does this mean you cannot mount a decent rebuttal? You have wasted my time.

I'm not confused. Far from it. I'm just not deluded. But if you can't function without a belief in an afterlife, by all means, stay in your bubble.

Peace.

truthislight: are you afraid of them?

You just cant trust thee

no umbilical cord attached

Answer your name truthisLIGHT?

Be truthful.

Bélla3: Who says believing in non existance of god expels bigotry

I see now.
You are trolling.
Nice try. I fell for it.

Mr_Anony: Are you kidding? It is either you were not paying attention or you are purposely misunderstanding me.

Let me lay down my argument again up to the point that that we have arrived at.

Everything that begins to exist has a cause
The universe, (space, time and matter) began to exist.
Therefore the universe has a cause.

The cause of space and time cannot be subject to space and time
Therefore, the cause of space and time must exist in a spaceless and timeless realm (a realm not subject to space and time)

I believe I have laid down logical deductions. Please point out these "speculations" Show me where I am assuming something or where my logic does not follow.

Where is the supernatural realm?#speculation#
Where is the possibility of an eternal being?#speculation#
Where is the first cause?#speculation#
Why did you remove all these from your arguments?
I don't particularly like being made to look foolish by trickery. We were discussing logic. You accepted we were speculating. Then turn around to accuse me of willful ignorance, unfounded bias, not paying attention and purposely misunderstanding you. That's not nice. THAT IS DISHONEST. Next time, I will be very upfront with you. No more discussing speculations. We discuss facts.

Bélla3: ^@ macdaddy and avicenna
Just when i was begining to think atheists are unbaised in their judgement.
Tsk trk tsk.
Indeed we would do anything to protect our 'beliefs'. And nt believing in god doesnt stop him from being a bigot.

WTF
Are you trolling me?

If I wasn't an atheist, what do you think I would have said?

Where's the bigotry? Do you know what bigotry means?

Bélla3: in the opinion of many religionists atheists are irresponsible, does that make it true to you?

Again, this is not about atheism.

In my opinion and anybody that actually know what he or she is doing, that is completely irresponsible.

Don't try to insert unrelated situations in to it.

wiegraf:
You said absolutely nothing of value here. It was more or else: christianity is good enough for me therefore it is good enough for everyone else. Then you called us lazy because rather than relying on some text which you acknowledge is ancient we actually get off our butts and try to figure how things work.

To be fair, you show clearly why I avoid discussions with most theists.

I'm surprised you bothered.

#facepalm#
You lied. You are speculating. I'm disappointed.
If I knew this is how you argue on things like this, I wouldn't have bothered.

Willful ignorance? WTF? There is no evidence for ANY theory of what was pre-this universe.

There's a first cause#speculation#
This first cause is present in a supernatural realm#speculation#
Then you assume there is a supernatural realm not subject to space and time. # speculation#
Then you assume a possiblity for a eternal being#speculation#
The first cause cannot be subject to spacetime#speculation#
Then you say this is correct and completely logical#lie#
I claim we cannot know#lie#
Cosmology is what the field is called. Your likes are the one lobbying against it funding. Willful ignorance at work.

I'm disappointed at your method of argument. You haven't prove anything. You merely stated what you think should happen. There's no clearcut evidence for any of these theories. Don't force your speculation as if it is a accurate description of what happened.

Bélla3: But you agree thats his business right?

But you agree he's irresponsible?

Mr_Anony: What I see here is someone who is simply refusing to follow and argument to it's logical end.
If the universe has a cause, then we must be able to say what this cause is (or isn't) else there is no cause at all.

You cannot say what caused it simply because you DO NOT know it!

I should have disabuse you of the notion from the beginning.
I thought you fully understood we were moving into a realm of speculations. Don't turn them to facts. You are trying to do that. We are honest debaters here.

Mr_Anony: What part of uncaused don't you understand? Without an uncaused cause, we fall into infinite regress
perhaps you should read my initial premises again:
"Everything that comes into being has a cause". The premise suggests that it begins to exist.
A first cause by definition does not begin to exist

A first cause therefore does not follow logic as we know it.

Mr_Anony: Lol, conceiving a multiverse only pushes it back a step. The logic is very simple: If the origin of space and time has a cause, then the cause cannot also be subject to space and time.
Even if there are more universes, we must eventually come to the point where we ask "what caused them?" unless you want to tell me that these universes are uncaused then I will have to ask you to explain how you arrived at this.

Why do you do that? Twisting it to seem I support a multi-verse theory. I pointed that out to you NOT to assume things.

When things seems to follow logic, we need to test it out to see if reality supports it. Reality doesn't support your supernatural realm hypothesis.

Infiinite regression affects your first cause theory.

Spacetime MAY be present in any realm that caused this universe. your logic is not as ironcast as you seem to think of it.

I will also keep pointing out. There are layers of unproven assumptions I accepted for us to move forward.

Do not mistake and conclude all your assumptions were facts. They are not.

Speculations. From the point where the cosmological argument ended.