₦airaland Forum

@ifeness



you ask goshen to quote a bible verse to back up what tranpired btw ABRAM/ISAAC and God, he(Goshen) showed you verses that shows that God was actually testing abram,by providing him with a sacrificial lamb close to the alter, but since you are bent on showing God as wicked, you dramatically changed the story to this below;

If you believe this story,do you believe the [b]superman comic books [/b]too? Do you think spiderman is also real?

are you sick? i think you must be, if you dont need an answer good, but changing the issue outrightly to superman issue is just stupid of you, now let me tell you the superiority of the bible and why you cannot compare with your superman book, bible is more than 2000 yrs old, and its the most circulated, the most translated book that ever circulate every part of the world, even in your mother tongue,you have this more than 2000 yr old book!, your comic book is not in my dialect! yoruba, while bible was! so i can believe bible than your comic, Olodo rabata oju eja lomooje!

@ Affiliated
claiming undeserved credit that is also unproven is 'stealing' dont let me accuse you of stealing;

What do you mean by before the so called science? Science started as soon as man could think and wonder

the term reffered to as 'science' is invented by someone or some group of people, while the bible discovery precceeds that with solid proofs as shown above until proven otherwise legitimately,

@mazaje

can you kindly prove these(1-3) below, quoting the verses alongside, if not it means that they are all false! dont give any excuse as to why you cannot, if you want to be taken seriously:

(1)The same bible also says that people should stone to death their disobedient children,(2) kill those that worship other gods,(3) tells people to enslave each other, and says that rapistss should marry the women they rapeee. . .How is that not a backward thing?

@Manmustwac

The bible even says that the world is flat and you and i know thats not true.

you lied! and it is because of your hatred that your knowledge about the bible is limited, lets see how your lies are exposed right inside the bible you claim to attack; more than 2000 yrs ago before a the so-called science, these facts are made known earlier!;

[size=14pt]circle of the earth[/size]

Isaiah 40:21-23

21 Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 [b]It is He who sits [/b]above [size=16pt]the circle of the earth[/size],
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

[size=14pt]water circle explained in the bible before science;[/size]

Job 26:7-10

7 He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
8 [size=14pt]He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it[/size].
9 He covers the face of His throne,
And spreads His cloud over it.
10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters,
At the boundary of light and darkness.

will you be humble to apologise for your misrepresentation? manmustwac, you erred in this, but i doubt if you will be sincere enough to apologise for you false accusation of the bible.

t

@ifeness

You better throw away that brainwashing book you quote from all the time. Or escape with your xtian friends

'brainwashing' is your word, and i dont share your terms, i hold the right to choose how best to live my life, are you better? no, most of you think that you are free only to realise that you left what seemed to be a bondage and jump into lagoon, e.g Fela kuti, he doesnt believe in God too, although he is also in traditional things too, thinking that he is free, but easily contracted AIDS and finally submit to death at 57, in evarlasting bondage, i think you must be a fool; yourself,thinking you are free i dont mean to insult you o! while driving,why do you obey trafic laws? why dont you leave the steering? you may commit murder and be jailed or killed if you are caught by lagos area boys, so you have fear, ole!

@seeking@truth

How would u feel if ur innocent child was among those children?

have you contracted the virus logicboy is infected with that prevents him to reason well? oh i see, you call a child not brought up well or refuse training innocent? thats unrully of you, you must be a problem in your neighborhood yet claiming innocence.

anyway i can sleep with my eyes closed,and not even thinking that my children will be reported for any offence since i have benefitted from this in the bible; below

1 Cor. 15:33 says...... "bad association spoils useful habits"

Deutoronomy 11:19

Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
prov 22:6;
Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.

can you see why my children are well behaved? because of the bible.

These christians are reetarded.


One claims that inbreeding is not in the bible when the act is performed in the bible (eg Abraham and Sarah)

(1)the term 'inbreeding' is your own defination, (2)it is not contained in the bible (3)we do not need to agree with 'your terms' of defination on what alledgedly ensued between abraham and sarah, and we hold the right to our own concept reagarding the issue, and that has to be respected.

The other claims that the bible is not illogical but beyond logic! There is only logical and illogical....there is nothing beyond logic.

you dont reason beyond your nose, olodo-rabata-oju-eja-loomooje!

what you call logic 'are mere traditions of so called wise men' and are 'philosophies and empty deceptions' leading nowhere;

colosians 2:8

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

1 corinthians 1:20-21:
gave me some insights concerning people like you who think you are wise;

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Another funny comment is that one claims that it is just to set two bears loose on children for mocking a bald man.

it seems funny to you because you are lawless, and you want people to join you in that unruly state, Mocking is not just a mere offence, there was a rule prohibiting that under the law covenant then, in exodus,'honor!your father and mother, including the elderly.....in an event of not adhering to that, a punishment is awarded to regulate behaviors that cannot be condoned. unruly fools like logicboy can never see why law has to be adhered to, Agbaaya!

You foolsih christian will have children one day and I will see if you will sacrifice them wehn they are disrespectful

sorry, you dont even know what christians means, but yet you jump into condemning them, christians received their belief not through 'the written law, but by faith through christ, we are not under the written law, but our circumcision is through our 'hearts' i doubt if you will not misinterprete this oleee! onyioshi,barawo!

@logicboy

Wow, so your argument is that God can choose to do what he likes [/b]and we cant question him?

do you reason at all? if not,''God can choose'' here shows how humble he is in using his powers!

You shift away from the fact that your god endorsed inbreeding with Adam and Eve?

are you infected with a virus such that one will repeat an answer 3 times? see it again; The term inbreeding is not contained anywhere in the bible from Genesis to Revelations.

Why worship such a god? A dictator?

you knew that i have noticed the way you rush into conclusions, you need to free the virus preventing your head to reason with every words provided as an answer before posting, God cannot be a dictator because, [b]we trust his judgement,(work out his purpose with our love in mind) and we respect him for who he is, and how he chooses to carry out his purpose

All I did was present an argument which you couldnt handle and went into illoigcal rants about how God is unquestionable and how much of a nusiance I am.

the way you rush into conclusions are too childish and poor!

Face it. If God is unquestionable, then you cant judge him if he sends r.apists to molest all the women in your family-

he will not do that! we trust him. he has his legitimate reasons in all he does.

just like how he sent bears to tear apart children who made the only crime of [size=14pt]mocking a bald man[/size].

'mocking a bald man' you have answered! punishment for mocking! use your head pls.

[size=14pt]Fail[/size]. Your bible cant be related to mathematics or used in an analogy relating to mathematics. Your religion/bible/god is illogical. Mathematic follows logic.

bolded above, shows that you have created a a selfish standard of judgement whereby inexperienced fall into,....you evade this answer below from traeces;

The term inbreeding is not contained anywhere in the bible from Genesis to Revelations.

cant you prove otherwise?

then he challenged you here;

It is only a scientific term which means breeding within a small group so if the unlimited God of all the earth chose to give adam and eve children via inbreeding, how is that our business?

if you are for real, how (inbreeding: a scientific term) is our business?

@logicboy

Finally, you have admitted that your God is nonsensical. A wise God choosing inbreeding for the first human family rather than create enough people to grow human kind without inbreeding.

nonsensical is your own language,and your personal evaluation that shows how defective your reasonings are in this respect without 'considering other facts but blindly concludes' thats even unwise of you in the first place and it is really funny that[b] 'you' are too infinitestimal to 'create a standard for judgement here'[/b] that will evaluate the activities of 'the creator' God is unaccountable to anybody,and can 'choose' ways to fuffill his purpose without prejudice'ok?

Haughtiness is the beggining of fall! you elevates yourself like[b] an ant king[/b], enjoying the services of his soldiers, you breathe fresh air, enjoying the good thing of nature yet,you grow in unappreciation.......check yourself brother, and people around you, you must be nuisance to your neighbor in all respect!by trying to force your opinion on us, Anyway, you are in for a big disappointment here as you have drove roughly without sense here!, i dont mean to insult you o. but you should have proven and carry us along into conclusion unanimously that God acted unwisely,but before we say jack! you are vommitting!

Atheists may mix in sharing their opinions on the tread, i dont share their views, and will not join issues with them,but let our christian brothers and sisters listen,this is not the issue of 'comprehending what is of spirit' because you cannot also comprehend Magic! if you dont know what im saying,buy a magic movie and watch, i have watch a live magic,proff peller, who was changing in different cloths and i believe that many here to have watch a live magic show,and it is beyond comprehension and human imaginations! and you dont need any spiritual mind to comprehend it! then the truth is,

what is the importance of the so called miracles?, lets analyse; jesus and the apostles only used miracles to foreshadow,or give us a glimpse of what God will reward righteous people with in his kingdom, while the kingdom is not here yet. lazarus and jairus daughter resurected are all dead again,but will be ressurected back in Gods kingdom.

but people think that they can build a temporary paradise here on earth, but they dont have answer to death! even papa Adeboye himself have no answer to death,because he must die one day, like Bishop idahosa, oshoffa et all..

Now, using jesus standard instructions to christians,

#it will be recalled that jesus's emphasis was on 'those doing Gods will' and not 'those casting out demons in JESUS name'! or those Doing wonders in JESUS name and yet they are still regarded as not doing Gods will, or lawless!

lets read;

mathew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

if those perceived to be Doing wonders in JESUS name and yet they are still regarded as not doing Gods will, or lawless by jesus himself! then there is a problem! it has been established that papa Adeboye's alledged miracles are not signs of approval in Gods sight! who does God approve?

''he who does [size=14pt]the will of My Father[/size] in heaven''

MATHEW 25:37-40
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

DOES PAPA ADEBOYE SEES TO IT THAT THE POOR AND THE NEEDY IN HIS CHURCH are WITHOUT NEED? FROM THE MONIES DONATED TO THE CHURCH? OR
IS THERE CLASS DISTINCTION AMONG THE CHURCH MEMBERS? do you encourage oneness among the poor and rich?

LETS SEE WHAT THE WILL OF GOD IS, WHAT BIBLE SAYS, and i want Adeboye surpoters to sincerely aknowledge this if it is practiced;

Acts 2:44-45

And [size=14pt]all who believed were together and had all things in common.[/size] And they were selling their possessions and belongings and [size=14pt]distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need[/size].
Proverbs 19:17

[size=14pt]Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed[/size].

Acts 2:44-45

And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Matthew 6:1-4

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus,[b] when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

1 John 3:17

Xtians enjoy being ripped off. The more you shout the less they listen.

im sorry this tread is for those that believe in God, not atheists!

===Modern pastors/G.os backed up their claim to receive tithe from various portions in the the bible, recognising the fact that Nigeria especially are very religious people, most people dont read the bible,and even if they read, they are still subjected to pastors who claimed 'superior spirituality's interpretations, in order words they fall prey easily with their knowledge to being milked unjustly!

but wait a minute,

are you suppose to know wheather you are doing the right thing? when you are taxed these percentages, without a honest accountability towards 'those that the scheme was founded for' and who are these people that the tithe scheme was founded for? the poor the fatherless and needy (malachi 3:5)

are you really justifying 'your giving'? sorry when you cant justify it,but relied on what you are told that 'you are giving to God' did God tells you that he needs your cash? and since you cannot see God to confirm his approval, who did jesus told you that ''when you do to the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me'' 'when im hungry you fed me, without cloth you cloth me and so on(mathew 25:39-45) are these not your co brothers in the lord? who are visible to you?

have you ever ask yourself why these pastors are causing class distinctions among you? that will cause you to see your brother but rather refuse to helf them but were told to give the monies to God? the word God or god sounds the same, have you ask youself if you are slaving for mammon (god of money) and you are blinded by a pastor who brainwarshed you give to god so as to double your blessing,then 'greed' blindfolded you such that you saw your brother in need but rather ignore him for a so called double blessing? while you are only donating to a pyramid scheme that you cannot partake in? did jesus encourage that? lets see

Proverbs 14:31 He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.

Proverbs 19:17 He who is kind to the poor [size=18pt]lends[/size] to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.
im sure these greedy pastors have this verse in their bible,but will never read it!

have you what ever wondered what christ view of the poor and neigbor are? please, from jesus standpoint, and not businessmen pastors and G.os,jesus standpoint of the poor ;

john 13:35;
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, [size=16pt]if you love one another[/size]."

1 John 4:20

If anyone says, "I love God," yet[b] hates his brother[/b], he is a liar.[size=14pt] For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.[/size]

now lets see where pastors/G.overseers ROBBED/STOLE and STRIPPED the poor of their tithe portions in their to further enslave the poor through expensive investments.

lets see these applications in 3 ways,

1, pre-law
2,during the law
3,after/during the time of the apostles/early christians


first

1,pre-law

what is tithe? a tenth part.

was it demanded by God during the pre-law(mosaic law)? no is the answer, but due to the pagan practice demand, during the pre law era, people like jacob and abraham vowed a tenth part, not because it was commanded,but willingly!

during his(Abraham's) time and what could motivate him to do that.

There Was Actually A General Tenth Parth Which Is Of Pagan Origin And Precedes The Mosaic Law’s Tithe By Many Centuries,

The Separation Of A Certain Proportion Of The Products Of One’s Industry Or Of The Spoils Of War As Tribute To Their Gods Was Practiced By Various Nations Of Antiquity. The Lydians Offered A Tithe Of Their Booty (Herod. I, 89).

The Phoenicians And Carthaginians Sent A Tithe Annually To The Tyrian Hercules. These Tithes Might Be Regular Or Occasional, Voluntary Or Prescribed By Law.

2, During the law

when does tithe became mandatory and commanded by God?

Tithe was established as a 'standard' with the tribe of levi;

HEBREW 7:5;

5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law

Abraham and jacob have no commandment to tithe! but a willing vow.

how do we know that tithe as defined to Gods people then was not following pattern of Abraham and jacob have no commandment to tithe.

WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS 'tithe' which is meant and reccomended as a standard for Gods people(isrealites) IS ''ON INCREASE'' and not the one that followed the pagan traditions before the law! which was on 'war spoils'
lets see

Deutronomy 14:22,

22 “You shall truly tithe all the [size=18pt]increase[/size] of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 [size=16pt]And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain [/size]and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.

[size=14pt]apart from being on increase the tithe giver partakes in eating in the tithe itself[/size]

not only that;

Sabbatical years(every 7th year),there is no tithe requested for that whole year of twelve months! but people cover this and apply malachi 3:10 (meant only for the isrealites/levites) and force members to tithe without sabatical! is that not fraud?

lastly

3,during the time of the apostles/early christians


1 COR 8:13-14.

13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; 14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality.
Acts 2:44

44 [size=14pt]All the believers were together and had everything in common[/size].

45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Acts 4:34

34 that [size=14pt]there were no needy persons among them[/size]. For from time to timethose who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and [size=14pt]it was distributed to anyone who had need[/size].

can you see that there is a rightful and legitimate claim by the poor,as their right to partake in how tithes are used,they had everything 'in common'

see these again,44 [size=14pt]All the believers were together and had everything in common[/size].

why is it different today? Greed!

you can have your say on these rot going on in our society pls. constructive contribution to the topic.

@Bidam

before i answered you,zikky has already knocked you off balance, but then let me still touch some points;

Bidam:
@bernimore...you make me laff..you neither know the scriptures nor the power that lies therein.

you better laugh like a jakkal, and then come out to tell us a fraudulent 'power' to distort the reasoning of the gullible, ole!

.Did Jesus actually tells u He came to annul the law?

have you met jesus before? dont tell me that he dines with you! you read about him in the scriptures,isn'nt it? book of hebrews was an inpired scripture, heb 7:18-22 ''there was an annulment of the the law'' its not me that wrote it,ok? if you have problem with it,its because of your fraud!

Hear the words of the master Himself,the epitome of success

what kind of dindinrin are you? epitome of success,so jesus has turned to money making ritualist, stinking rasoning!

you read but do not understand, see the key word ''RIGHTEOUSNESS''

if you lived by the law,why do you cherrypicked tithing, but yet when your son/daughter insults you you refuse taking him/her out for stonning to death! why? can you see how foolish you are by cherrypicking, ANYONE WHO BREAKS ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS!

:DDO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS; I HAVE NOT COME TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFILL THEM. I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER, NOT THE LEAST OF A PEN, WILL BY ANY MEANS DISAPPEAR FROM THE LAW UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED. ANYONE WHO BREAKS ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS(tithes and offerings) AND TEACHES OTHERS TO DO THE SAME WILL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT WHOEVER PRACTICES AND TEACHES THESE COMMANDS WILL BE CALLED GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. FOR I TELL YOU THAT UNLESS YOUR [size=14pt]RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES THAT OF THE PHARISEES AND THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW[/size], YOU WILL CERTAINLY NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN(MAT5:17-20)

...

you think hebrews 7:18-22 that talks about annulment of the law contradicts MAT5:17-20 above? then if hebrews 7 is inferior yet you cherrypicked 'order of melchi' in d book of hebrews, are you not fraudulent? pauline epistles and not an inspired scripture? ah you don 'kolo'

ole!

@Bidam

as a modern tithe advocate, you demostrate below that one should not follow what you say.

Bidam's supposed last post

dis my last post here folks...shalom.

stop bastardazing scriptures by claimin tithing is of pagan origin.

stop being sympathethic! in order to confuse people, the approved Tithe started with the leviticus priesthood!and it was 'on' increase for foodstuff and number ten of animal that can pass under the staff,so in otherwords, the tenth part spoil practice(pre-law) was of pagan origin! hence the levitical priesthood, but then levitical priesthood ended on the cross, then long throat caused you guys to extend your claim to pre-law pagan practice, ole thief and barawo you are, Bidam!

leviticus priesthood that came with the innauguration of tithe as a standard to the isrealites was annuled! you want to see that? the same way(parallel) that circumcision was of no effect to new christian converts,

AND THEREFORE (because of its weakness and unprofitableness,)IT WAS ANNULED, (OR ENDED BY NAILING IT ON THE TURTURE STAKE)
COLOSIANS 2:13,14;

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

THE ANNULEMENT!

Hebrew 7:19,22;

18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness


19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

compare with malachi 3:1 ............''Even the [size=16pt]Messenger of the covenant[/size],
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

word for word,the tithe in malachi 3:10 canvassed for a ''Messenger of the covenant'' (jesus) who after his death annuled the law he became a suretee of a better convenant! (heb 7:22)

so we are not under law that includes tithing and forcefull circumcision to be Gods servant, but our call is through christ, and our circumcision through our heart, our giving is not through coded law but from the heart,'cheerfull' and acceptable according to what one has. thats why the poor have no need during the apostles,because their need was duly taking care of!

We even hear the heart cry of the Father when malachi prophesied that we have robbed Him in "tithes and offering".God principles are eternal.

can you see why i said that you are a thief? see why
before jumping exegical holes to claim something not for you, lets see from the begining (chap 1) of malachi who the message is adressed to;

Malachi 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 [size=14pt]The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel[/size] by Malachi.

a, you are not a levi,talkless of being an isrealite whom malachi rebuked because of offering blind and lame animals while they keep the good ones to theirself, read malachi chap 2.
b, how does 'storehouse' turned to church?
c, how does food turned to cash?

malachi 3:1 God said that im sending 'my messenger' our lord (jesus) to refine levi,(who are priests) and offering will be done in righteousness (mal 3:3) thereby jesus nulified the levitical tithe!

The coming of the Messiah was not to abolished what malachi prophesied

who told you that malachi 3:10 was a tithe prophecy? see your life? or a time that we will not be under law?

go and stop manipulating the bible, na wa for you oo, you think you are just talking to an in experienced,eeee ya!

@Bidam

you said you are out, but back again, and you are yet to answer this one by one! if you want to be taken seriously!

Abraham was not even a jew yet he paid tithes..the jewish nation did not begin until the twelve patriachs came forth from jacob

Im happy that you recognise that Abraham was not a jew, and moreso his father Tire was a pagan. but do you honestly on you own see that what Abraham gave 'tenth-part' was not 'commanded' by God but a community practice unlike the 'leviticus who were really commanded by the law statutes', but Abraham 'vowed' a 'tenth part' of spoils,or a tribute offering;

GEN 14:22

22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, the Possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I will take nothing, from a thread to a sandal strap


and let us see what is practiced during his(Abraham's) time and what could motivate him to do that.

There Was Actually A General Tenth Parth Which Is Of Pagan Origin And Precedes The Mosaic Law’s Tithe By Many Centuries,

The Separation Of A Certain Proportion Of The Products Of One’s Industry Or Of The Spoils Of War As Tribute To Their Gods Was Practiced By Various Nations Of Antiquity. The Lydians Offered A Tithe Of Their Booty (Herod. I, 89).

The Phoenicians And Carthaginians Sent A Tithe Annually To The Tyrian Hercules. These Tithes Might Be Regular Or Occasional, Voluntary Or Prescribed By Law

Moreso, Abraham's tenth-part offering (from war spoils) is reffered to by paul in hebrews as 'tenth-part' delibrately not using the word 'tithe' see below(in majority translations),

Hebrews 7:2,5 and 6;

2 Abraham.... one tenth of all he had taken.

6 ... collected one tenth from Abraham.

5 Levi..... to receive tithes


Now let us see the difference from the 'tithe' recognised for Gods people(isreal) which is a tithe only 'on increase'

WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS 'tithe' which meant and reccomended as a standard for Gods people(isrealites) IS ''ON INCREASE'' and not the one that followed the pagan traditions before the law!

Deutronomy 14:22,

22 “You shall truly tithe all the[size=14pt] increase[/size] of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.

Sabbatical years(every 7th year),there is no tithe requested for that whole year of twelve months! but you people cover this and apply malachi 3:10 (meant only for the isrealites/levites) and force members to tithe without sabatical! is that not fraud?

Even without increase in ones income,im not saying regular income,but tithe applied to only 'increase' as you can see but you still force one to give from the regular,thereby portraying God as 'a demanding God' because of your greed, is that right? keep the answer to yourself oooo!

paul settled the matter of tithing in verse 8 of heb7..He states plainly that Christ receiveth them(tithes) of whom it is witnessed that he liveth

was christ mentioned in verse 8 at all? read it yourself,

heb 7: 8;

Here mortal men receive tithes, but there[size=14pt] he [/size]receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives

'he' there was a continuation of 'the man melchi' in verse 1. ok?

IT IS A CHRISTIAN DUTY TO GIVE(NOT PAY) TITHES UNDER THE NEW CONVENANT...TITHING IS AN ACT OF WORSHIP..TITHING IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIP NOT ORGANISATION...TITHING CAUSES THE TITHE GIVER TO GIVE FREELY AND SPONTANEOUSLY RATHER THAN WAITING UNTIL AN APPEAL IS MADE..TITHING CREATES A COMMANDING POSITION OF STEWARDSHIP IN THE LIVES OF CHRISTIANS..TITHING INVOKES GOD'S BLESSING UPON THE TITHE GIVER..TITHING TEACHES US TO RECOGNISE AND ACKNOWLEDGE GOD'S OWNERSHIP OF OUR LIVES..TITHING IS GIVING IN A SYSTEMATIC MANNER RATHER THAN AN EMOTIONAL OR SPASMODIC GIVING AS U GUYS DO IN UR LOCAL ASSEMBLY.

Jesus never taught tithes so also the apostles but he taught 'giving cheefully out of what one has' and moreso 'if the willingness is there, it is acceptable' (1 corinthians

im not discouraging giving, because i set out any amount i deemed fit for giving, and at times not neccesarily through the church, even directly i will share the monies i set out and give to those who are needy directly, by following jesus clear example below;

Mathew 19-21;
Remember the young ruler was told by jesus to,

21, ‘’sell all ye have and [size=14pt]distribute to the poor[/size].and have treasures in heaven’’,

directly giving to the genuine poor in christ to help them is another way to 'treasure in heaven'where the treasure cannot be destroyed! and not a way of [size=14pt]enriching some individuals 'in sheeps covering, but inside them they are greedy wolves'[/size]

milking the gullible. anti tithers koo, antitither nii! if you know that you are sure of your self you dont need to run away. because with all this expose, many will be freed. you Bidam is the most surprising of all the advocates of modern scam called modern Tithe

surporting your priesthood from pagan culture before the law, and during the law (pagan jeroboam choosing priests for idol alter) this proves shows that you dont care about Gods flock only their money!

@joeagbaje

Brother you just hit the nail on the head. I know you don't like me very mush but take a BIG peck for this exposition.

I have said earlier this long Goshen epistle is unnespcessary . The message of paul was not about tithe . His Condemnation of the law was the fact that the law failed in bringing Gods righteousness and justification which we have recieved by faith, but that doesn't condemn the works of the law. There's are deeds of the law that are eternal principles . They transcend dispensations. Those works of the law are not wrong in themselves but , when a man used them wrongly it brings condemnation. How can a man use the law wrongly? It's by seeking to be made righteous through the law. Apart from that the law is holy. The law reveals Gods principles and stand. And these principles have been there before Levitical order.

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;


Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


The only works of the law that is not necessary are the things jesus fulfiled. The principles in the law are not condemned but seeking justification before God by them is condemned. Paul message in Heb 7 is not about tithing or condemnation of tithing . His emphasis there is that jesus came in the highest order of priesthood. For the fact that Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and Levi indirectly to tithed to Melchi makes Melchi higher than they all and Jesus didnt become highpriest in the lesser priest hood of men who dies (Aaron /Levi ) he came in the highest order - Melchi . That's simlply the message being complicated unesesarily here.
. The message is simple .jesus is greater than all . O pari.

you are a confusion to yourself, and you knew that you are being fraudulent with the bible, besides you do not even have respect for the bible;

you once said that levitical priesthood was and intrusion, im i lying?

let me paste our previous discussions on tithe here, and let people see that you modern tithe advocates,are not uniform in your definations and conclusion;
[b]Below are some extract from the advocates of 'priesthood order of melchizedeck' on this topic,(Wordtalk,Garyarnold and joagbaje) who derived their authority from 'unproven priesthood order' of melchizedeck,thereby some of them,apart from garyarnold used this to support their claim for the continuation of tithes,after the levitical priesthood annulment.

it will be noted that, they do not have an agreed defination,is God the Author of confussion? 1cor 14:33

their definanations are personal and selfish,borne out of 'dead technicalities'of law and philosophies,thereby their reasonings (whys or ifs) if followed, makes the whole bible itself and inspired book of God looks foolish,but then, apostle paul gave us a hint as to how to understand the scripture,outside selfish dead technicalities he said in;

1cor 1:21

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe

lets see their contradictions below;

1# wordtalk:

There are not two separate 'priesthoods' - just one. It is called the priesthood AFTER THE ORDER OF Melchizedek. Even Christ is the High Priest of our profession, He is still bearing that priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. It does not mean two separate or different 'priesthoods'.

I've long taken a stand: I'm for Christ who is MADE a priest AFTER THE ORDER OF Melchizedek.

so wordtalk admitted to 'own a pesonally different stand'on this issue,as reflected in the last line above.while wordtalk says 'there are no two separate priesthoods'
lets compare it with Garyarnold


2# Garyarnold

“AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEC”

“after” G2596 - A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time)
“order” G5010 - regular arrangement, that is, (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character)

We are talking about the order; i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Two comes after one.

IF Melchizedec Was The First, After The Order Of Would Constitute The Second. Since The Levitical Priesthood Was Disannulled (Hebrews 7:1 , That Means It Is Treated As Though It Never Was. Therefore, The Priesthood Of Christ Comes After That Of Melchizedec. I Believe It Is As Simple As That.

Garyarnold disagrees with wordtalk,(both advocates of 'unproven'priesthood order of melchizedeck) he even went on to explain the extent of the separate priesthood order, that if; Melchizedec Was The First, After The Order Of Would Constitute The Second.

to compound the whole issue, br joeagbaje came with what i can term as 'very rude' approach to the scripture,further confirm what paul termed as how the so called 'worlds wisdom did not know God' but it pleased God 'through the foolishness of the message'(foolishness to the worlds wisdom) preached to save those who believe,if not can anybody just help me to explain the meaning of 'intrusion' below(bolded letters);

3# joagbaje

Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 17 days & 9 hours


Will you nullify the word of God. Before the law there was Melchizedek order. When the law came ,there was levitical order for a period. Many high priest functioned under the order of levitical priest hood. Now that it has ended we are back to Melchizedek order In which Jesus function. that means the Order never ended. It has always been . [size=14pt]The levitical was only an intrusion[/size]. This is the real order.

its not personal, but if we choose to drop our pride,and accept what the bible teaches outside 'dead technicalities'according to according to christ,but not according to 'philosophies of men, only then we can appreciate the teachings of the bible.
cheers.[/b]

waow?

@Bidam

Abraham was not even a jew yet he paid tithes..the jewish nation did not begin until the twelve patriachs came forth from jacob

Im happy that you recognise that Abraham was not a jew, and moreso his father Tire was a pagan. but do you honestly on you own see that what Abraham gave 'tenth-part' was not 'commanded' by God but a community practice unlike the 'leviticus who were really commanded by the law statutes', but Abraham 'vowed' a 'tenth part' of spoils,or a tribute offering;

GEN 14:22

22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, the Possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I will take nothing, from a thread to a sandal strap


and let us see what is practiced during his(Abraham's) time and what could motivate him to do that.

There Was Actually A General Tenth Parth Which Is Of Pagan Origin And Precedes The Mosaic Law’s Tithe By Many Centuries,

The Separation Of A Certain Proportion Of The Products Of One’s Industry Or Of The Spoils Of War As Tribute To Their Gods Was Practiced By Various Nations Of Antiquity. The Lydians Offered A Tithe Of Their Booty (Herod. I, 89).

The Phoenicians And Carthaginians Sent A Tithe Annually To The Tyrian Hercules. These Tithes Might Be Regular Or Occasional, Voluntary Or Prescribed By Law

Moreso, Abraham's tenth-part offering (from war spoils) is reffered to by paul in hebrews as 'tenth-part' delibrately not using the word 'tithe' see below(in majority translations),

Hebrews 7:2,5 and 6;

2 Abraham.... one tenth of all he had taken.

6 ... collected one tenth from Abraham.

5 Levi..... to receive tithes


Now let us see the difference from the 'tithe' recognised for Gods people(isreal) which is a tithe only 'on increase'

WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS 'tithe' which meant and reccomended as a standard for Gods people(isrealites) IS ''ON INCREASE'' and not the one that followed the pagan traditions before the law!

Deutronomy 14:22,

22 “You shall truly tithe all the[size=14pt] increase[/size] of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.

Sabbatical years(every 7th year),there is no tithe requested for that whole year of twelve months! but you people cover this and apply malachi 3:10 (meant only for the isrealites/levites) and force members to tithe without sabatical! is that not fraud?

Even without increase in ones income,im not saying regular income,but tithe applied to only 'increase' as you can see but you still force one to give from the regular,thereby portraying God as 'a demanding God' because of your greed, is that right? keep the answer to yourself oooo!

paul settled the matter of tithing in verse 8 of heb7..He states plainly that Christ receiveth them(tithes) of whom it is witnessed that he liveth

was christ mentioned in verse 8 at all? read it yourself,

heb 7: 8;

Here mortal men receive tithes, but there[size=14pt] he [/size]receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives

'he' there was a continuation of 'the man melchi' in verse 1. ok?

IT IS A CHRISTIAN DUTY TO GIVE(NOT PAY) TITHES UNDER THE NEW CONVENANT...TITHING IS AN ACT OF WORSHIP..TITHING IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIP NOT ORGANISATION...TITHING CAUSES THE TITHE GIVER TO GIVE FREELY AND SPONTANEOUSLY RATHER THAN WAITING UNTIL AN APPEAL IS MADE..TITHING CREATES A COMMANDING POSITION OF STEWARDSHIP IN THE LIVES OF CHRISTIANS..TITHING INVOKES GOD'S BLESSING UPON THE TITHE GIVER..TITHING TEACHES US TO RECOGNISE AND ACKNOWLEDGE GOD'S OWNERSHIP OF OUR LIVES..TITHING IS GIVING IN A SYSTEMATIC MANNER RATHER THAN AN EMOTIONAL OR SPASMODIC GIVING AS U GUYS DO IN UR LOCAL ASSEMBLY.

Jesus never taught tithes so also the apostles but he taught 'giving cheefully out of what one has' and moreso 'if the willingness is there, it is acceptable' (1 corinthians

im not discouraging giving, because i set out any amount i deemed fit for giving, and at times not neccesarily through the church, even directly i will share the monies i set out and give to those who are needy directly, by following jesus clear example below;

Mathew 19-21;
Remember the young ruler was told by jesus to,

21, ‘’sell all ye have and [size=14pt]distribute to the poor[/size].and have treasures in heaven’’,

directly giving to the genuine poor in christ to help them is another way to 'treasure in heaven'where the treasure cannot be destroyed! and not a way of [size=14pt]enriching some individuals 'in sheeps covering, but inside them they are greedy wolves'[/size]

milking the gullible. anti tithers koo, antitither nii! if you know that you are sure of your self you dont need to run away. because with all this expose, many will be freed. you Bidam is the most surprising of all the advocates of modern scam called modern Tithe

surporting your priesthood from pagan culture before the law, and during the law (pagan jeroboam choosing priests for idol alter) this proves shows that you dont care about Gods flock only their money! abaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

@Bidam

Whether similitude, likeness or order..the truth is that Jesus is Our High priest..abi u wan tell me say u no need High priest again?

thats not the issue here brother! but the issue is you, because 'jesus became the high priest according to the likeness,similarity and resemblance of office of melchizedech, and not that jesus function under(insult) a so called 'priesthood order' formulated outside the bible context to suit the advocates of modern tithe theory. okay?

Jesus is seated at the right hand of God making interceding for us.

nobody is disputing this,but could be a diversionary tatics!

And as for David being a priest, read the post here:

may i tell you these today sir, levites (as a family) were commanded according to the law to receive tithes (an officiate as priests) from the people according to the law.


can you please let us consider;

hebrews 7:5

5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;

David (a non levite) was not eligible under the law to officiate at the alter,

now let me cite the bible quotes in the cite that you quoted in your post;

one is not required to be specially consecrated in order to perform d sacrificial functions anyone might approach d altar and offer sacrifices..chek (2sam24:25)

David was directed to erect an alter, as the only 'emergency option' to stop the plague killing his people isrealites and not as a regular priest; read;

2 sam 24:18, 24-25
18 So Gad came to David that day and said to him, “Go up, erect an altar to the LORD on the threshing floor of[h]Araunah the Jebusite.”

David was reluctant because he knew tht he was not from the levite family, and knew the implication; read,

24 However, the king said to Araunah, “No, but I will surely buy itfrom you for a price, [size=14pt]for I will not offer burnt offerings to the LORD my God[/size] [a]which cost me nothing.” So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.

David accepted only on the condition of Gad who directed him.and not because he is eligible but for emergency.that is the time the plague was removed,an emergency situation.

25 David built there an altar to the LORD and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. Thus theLORD was moved by prayer for the land, and the plague was held back from Israel.

levites were suffered by jeroboam,solomon's son who rejected the priesthood of levites not because he was right to do what he wants but a clear violation of Gods law!

he jeroboam appointed for himself[size=14pt] priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made. [/size]

im surprised that you Bidam can even use this to butrss your point because you want to build modern tithe legacy, see what you are supporting your point with, pure idolatory priest,;

2 chron 11:14-15

14 For the Levites left their common-lands and their possessions and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them from serving as priests to the LORD. 15 Then he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made. 16 And after the Levitesleft,[a] those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the LORD God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the LORD God of their fathers.

And lastly you claimed that David made his sons priests which is false, you cited
2 chronicle 29:27

27 Then Hezekiah gave the order to offer the burnt offering on the altar. When the burnt offering began, the song to the LORD also began with the trumpets, [a]accompaniedby the instruments of David, king of Israel.

no where in the bble verse above which you quoted that support David directing his sons as priest, nothing like that was even mentioned there read yourself now. David and solomon offererig up burnt offerings, offered peace offerings, and made a feast for all his servants does not make them priests or part of priesthooh family, they are one-off.

it is only the levites family that receive the commandment coded and written as statutes (hebrews 7:5) and that is why

(heb 7:14)

''
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, [size=14pt]of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood[/size].

priesthood recognition has to be commanded and written down as atatutes before it can be recognised in the old law! mere one off offerings did not validate one as a priest,or belong to the priesthood family,because God had already set the pattern.
stop making a case for David but rather 'tribe of judah' are there priest in tribe judah?

@Bidam

please lets engage in the followings;

Since you have the bible, look at heb5..Paul revealed Christ as a High priest in the order of Melchizedek..connect it with heb7.16-28)..i beleive u agree with me paul was talking about Christ..

i have seen how modern tithe advocates were so unfair to the bible teaching by using these two strategies;

(1) 'distorting' the real meaning of 'order of'as used in the context of the book of hebrews and psalms; [size=16pt]order of[/size] Melchizedek.

(2) Also watered down bible clear message in hebrew 7:13-14 by telling us that the tribe of judah(where jesus was made to come from),that there exist a priest there, against the bible claim ''of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood''and '' from which no man has officiated at the altar''(we shall treat it later);

Hebrews 7:13-14;

''13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood''.

(1) above

(1) 'distorting' the real meaning of 'order of' [/b]as used in the context of the book of hebrews and psalms; what does [size=16pt]order of[/size] Melchizedek mean in the context of book of hebrews?


Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the ''similitude.[b]G3665'' of Melchisedec there ariseth another
priest,

since the NT was written in greek, lets see the greek meaning

G3665

ὁμοιότης

homoiotēs

hom-oy-ot'ace

From G3664 ; [size=16pt]resemblance[/size]: - [size=16t]like [/size]{as} similitude.


heb 7:15 (New king james version)

15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the [size14pt]likeness of Melchizedek[/size], there arises another priest

heb 7:15 (young's Literal Translation)

15 And it is yet more abundantly most evident, if according to the [size=14pt]similitude of Melchisedek[/size] there doth arise another priest,

heb 7:15 Wycliffe (Wyc) Bible

15 And more yet it is known, if by the [size=14pt]order of Melchisedec[/size] another priest is risen up; [And more yet it is known, if after the order of Melchisedec another priest riseth;]


heb 7:15 Good News Translation (GNT)

15 The matter becomes even plainer; a different priest has appeared, who[size=14pt] is like Melchizedek.[/size]

can you see what is meant by ''order of Melchizedek'' from above bible translation; (resemblace, likeness, similitude,order)[/size]any other 'orders' outside these are fraud! and must be abandoned!


(2) also the strategy of watering down bible clear message in hebrew 7:13-14 by telling us that tribe of judah, there exist a priest, against the bible claim

.and i clearly remember when u said david was not a priest and i quoted relevant scriptures where david not only functioned as a priest but also ordain his sons to serve as priest in the temple

can you tell us pls, i cant find where you replied someone about officiating in the tribe of judah, pls im interested for clarity sake.

waiting pls!

sorry dear, time spent on u is time wasted. Why should i bother my self, my last question is there all u need to do is scroll up.

so you are tired, that is great! my mission accomplished on you.if you are bold enough bring them on!thanks

@ubenedictus

To bernimore, u have dodging d questions u were asked.

i have answered all questions,and you did not ask me any that was not answered duly, italo asked and he was duly replied too, and he did not complain, so if you feel unsatisfied,ask me again afresh! im waiting.

@ubenedictus

now you are on your own!!! I have never seen a catholic wu said mary is the mediator

we are saying that popes meridian prayer below implies that she replaced jesus as the mediator of salvation for humans; which should be the original role of jesus;...1 Timothy 2:5; ''For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus'', your pope prayer implies;MERIAN PRAYER OF POPE;

''Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and [size=18pt]obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation[/size].
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary''!

you lost yourself by deleting this quote from THE MERIAN PRAYER where you are lifting it from because you are embarrassed,here is it again,thanks to the internet;

''Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and [size=18pt]obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation[/size].
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary''!
whats the meaning that you are on your own!who need that?
are you with me before? do i expect you to be with me before, pls continue to deny,because you are told to do so.a beg!

@chukwudi

Rev 5:8;


8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

rev 8:3-4;read

3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.



you did not deny the fact the angels received the incence ( which are the prayers of the saints.not from Gods people,but from the 4 living creatures and 24 elders) (who are not angels)

That I have already down in Rev 8:4 when angels acted as a medium conveying the prayers of God's people to Jesus.

rev 8:4
''And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, [b]ascended before God [/b]from the angel’s hand.



CHUKWU...''ascended before God'', and not jesus, you are yet to prove 'mediator from Gods people to jesus here,and rev 8:4 is not supporting that

@italo

You are desperately resorting to lying openly now.

How does angels acting as mediators contradict angels not being fit for worship?

prove using the bible how you determine or ever mentioned that angel acts as mediators,and some not fit for worship?

@italo,

How does angels acting as mediators contradict angels not being fit for worship?

Do you read the bible verse quoted before posting? obviosly not,its getting messier with you guys,
and who command angels as mediators,chukwudi your co catholic dodge this question,and nothing like a mediator was ever mentioned in chukwudi's bible verse below,not even an angel,but four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, In Rev 5:8;

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

[color=#770077]what do we learn here;

(a)the ''four living creatures and the twenty-four elders'' (angels not inclusive) of which ''each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints.'' are not angels nor mediator.

(b)The seven angels who stand before God posses no incence at all in their golden cencer! but the golden cencer;(the cup used in receiving the incence,and added to their task,they were given trumpets,and much incence into the cup;golden cencer,so as to offer before the throne; read,

Revelation 8:2-4

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, [size=18pt]that he should offer [/size]it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

since there is no evidence that these angels possesed the incence which are the prayers of the saints, but what they have was a golden cencer (the cup) to receive the incence, and these angels are acting according to the lamb's command,hence;''that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar'' so there was nowhere that record that these angels have prayers rendered in their name,which would have suggested that they are the one who brought the incence.

we can conclude according to the facts in this verses that the angel acts as 'messanger/servants' under instructions, and this harmonises with what one of the angel said to john in revelation that you (italo)quoted earlier which the angel says''im a fellow servant like you,worship God''

if the angels were acting as a mediator, there would have been evidences of records in the same revelation that they actually receieve prayers. since there is no proof to that effect and no mention of the word 'mediator' like 1 tim 2:5, and gal 3:19-20 that mentioned 'mediator' directly and stating the roles as it concern jesus, we have only one mediator, jesus christ!

can you see the harmony? no mention of mediator

@chukwudi44

the angels and winged creatures acted as mediators conveying prayers of xtians before the lamb.so also do catholics ask of Mary

Are you contradicting your co-catholic, about the role or angels receiving any form of worship? see how you contradict your co catholic below;

ITALO;....John fell at the angel's feet to worship him. Even though it was wrong

All these shows that your faith is rooted in lies! no agreements to your beliefs,ipity many who had died in this ignorance.

@italo

What the hell is his point exactly?!

your co catholic said this below

chukwudi44;''nothing wrong in going to Jesus through Mary''

and that is what the PICTURE OF MARY as a mediator replacing jesus role(above).since jesus is GOD,he is a party with God, jesus cannot be God and a mediator in between Himself as a God and humans! you cannot be a judge in your own case.do you get the picture now, that is the picture of declaring 'mary as our salvator' looks like.