₦airaland Forum

@kilode
You seem to enjoy beating around the bush even though the issue is clear. If you feel Soyinka by his activities was/is a politician, simply provide the definition of a politician that includes such activities. For example, as head of FRSC chairman, Soyinka was a bureaucrat, and not a law enforcement officer nor a politician, the same way being head of NNPC doesn't make you a politician. Also being a political appointee doesnt make you a politician, else the entire supreme court of the US are all politicians.
That you (or anyone else) thinks of him as a politician doesnt make it true and thus should not be used as an excuse for redefining the word 'politician'.

All that being said, Soyinka will better serve the country by dedicating himself and his resources to eradicating the menace he begot by founding the pyrates confraternity. He should help solve the problem he help created, before trying to solve the problem created by others. I personally cant think of a single tangible positive contribution he has made to the Nigerian populace and/or country.

Inter Milan for the CL. Once they win the CL, Mourinho will be available for us.

FACE:
Richy, thanx for providing the dictionary definitions of race again but some people would rather die in ignorance than accept correction.

"The blind stares with a million pair of eyes but will never see" --- Tupac  

I couldn't have said that better. Like I said in the past, some people resort to google to argue about everything under the sun (from electricity to solar energy to making gari) even when they are talking rubbish, but the simple things in life elude their comprehension.

and some people dont know what it means to make a reasonable argument within context.
Going about dragging definitions of race does not change the context of the debate, and under that context (like you admitted), 'Igbo' is not a race!
In a different context, feel free to define yourself as race of your own.

chosen04:
Your inability to reason is appalling. No matter your motivations.

and you must be the great scholar that thinks his/her family are a race of their own  

RichyBlacK:
biina,

I think you should recheck your facts. There is no such restrictions in answering question 9 on the form that only allows those who are "multi-racial" to cross more than one box.

The guidelines being followed by Ndi-Igbo in the US is fine and everyone of them will be counted as being black and Igbo.

The risk that the census form of a household or an individual will be discarded for crossing more than one box, even when it's stated on the form that "one or more boxes" can be crossed, is zero.

This exercise is an important one and I hope every Igbo son and daughter will comply.

You have only one race unless you are multi-racial. If you check two boxes, means you belong to two different races - they are not subsets of each other. Are all Igbos multiracial?
Yet you are asking them to claim to be multiracial when they are not.
What next I am white but also of the french race?
I am Chinese and Han Chinese?
I am Asian Indian and Dravidian? 
Please feel free to feed the ignorance.

tkb417:
yes, different
Sir Alex ferguson was a very good striker and he became a successful coach.

Im sure you know Zola, Tony Adams, Roy Keane, Ole Gunner Solksjaer, Pep Guordiola, Lauren Blanc, Rijkaard, Zico, Stephen Kesi, Daniel Amokachi.  .   .  . i can list a 1000 footballers who turned a coach

nothing stops Soyinka from going a notch better than sitting on the fence and trying to actively be involved in shaping the course of 9ja
its a laudable move and ill support with all i have

U don carry your manU fanboism come enter politics.
SAF a very good striker?
wetin im accomplish as a striker? how many times did he play for the scottish NT?
I beg carry your Useless Obertan behind comot jare

FACE:
All those saying that Igbo is not a race should get some education. The word "RACE" has various definitions including:

1.a group of persons related by common descent or heredity
2.a population so related
3.Anthropology.
a.any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b.an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c.a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
4.a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
5.any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.  (dictionary.com)

Igbo can't be classified as a race in US census but an ethnic minority, not because Igbo is not a race but because of the context in which "RACE" is used in US census.

Some of you fellas dash off to google to become experts in business, electricity, nuclear weapons, religion and everything under the sun but would not even know the simplest of things or consult google as usual because you think you know.

Ignorance is not really a problem but the refusal to learn, accept corrections and sticking to a position regardless of facts is simply pathetic.

and this topic is about the Tanzanian elections?
If you know the context of this thread is the US census 2010, why are you then bringing in extraneous definitions.

You are free to fill your form however you wish, just dont mislead others. An Igbo man is a black man.

@OP
Your post is misleading.
You can check multiple boxes in question #9 only if you are multi-racial (i.e. have parents from different races). Being Igbo and 'Black, African American, or Negro' does not qualify, as the former is a subset of the latter. If you feel so strongly that 'Igbo' should be recognized as a race, please feel free to check 'other' and fill in the text,  but asking people to check both boxes will only make them appear as semi illiterates who dont know the definition of 'race'.

Kilode?!:
"Soyinka has always been a politician, a social critic can by extention be political, MLk, Ghandi, even Rush Limbaugh in the US, it is not necessary to form a party and you can form one also to put pressure on govt or create a larger platform for your cause, you don't even have to win a single seat, pressure groups are an integral part of politics?"

I believe I have expressed my thoughts as well as I can in the post above. Taking a literary. short, or narrow dictionary definition will not adequately flesh out the meaning of very broad concepts like politics or politician.

POLITICS
1 a : the art or science of government b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
2 : political actions, practices, or policies
3 a : political affairs or business; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government) b : political life especially as a principal activity or profession c : political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices
4 : the political opinions or sympathies of a person
5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society [/b]b : [b]relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view <office politics> <ethnic politics>

Doing any of the above puts you squarely in the realm of politics, even a mere interest, either as a critic on TV, Nairaland, or in the house of assembly makes  you a politician. studying it as in 1(a) makes you a politician, we can play with the word as long as we want but the bottom line is that; politics isn't only about party politics and critics too are political. So, by extension they are politicians. Wole Soyinka forming a political party is an extension of what he's spent the better part of his life doing.

He has a stated agenda to remove Iwu and reform the electoral process or get a sovereign national conference started, the same political ideas he's always canvassed for. they are "narrow" ideas because they do not cover every political interest in the polity and not everybody will agree with him, but that is what he's pushing. He has always been a politician. Forming a party now did not just transform him into one.

where are talking about defining 'politician' and not 'politic'. Whats next, everyone that doctors something, is a doctor?
Provide a definition for the word 'politician' and stop trying to get in thru the back door. Abi na u create the word?

FYI, a more detail description from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician):

A politician or political leader (from Greek "polis" is an individual who is involved in influencing public decision making. This includes people who hold decision-making positions in government, and people who seek those positions, whether by means of election, coup d'état, appointment, electoral fraud, conquest, right of inheritance  (see also: divine right) or other means. Politics is not limited to governance  through public office. Political offices may also be held in corporations, and other entities that are governed by self-defined political processes.

Considered a politician
* In a state, a member of the executive branch of government, or the office of Head of State, as well as the legislative branch, and regional and local levels of government.
* Any person influencing group opinions in his or her favor can be termed a politician. For example, a worker participating in office politics is a politician, but only so far as the operations of his or her workplace are concerned.
* Some law enforcement officers, such as sheriffs, and many judges who are elected or appointed because of their political views or popularity.

Not considered a politician
* Members of government who serve purely functional roles, such as bureaucrats.
* Members of the judicial branch, law enforcement, and the military are not usually regarded as being politicians since they are generally executing or adjudicating established law and custom.
* Ordinary citizens with the power to vote cannot properly be called politicians even though they can participate in group decision-making. A politician participates in public debate that leads to a group decision being reached, while a voter is simply responding to that debate.


So please provide a source that supports your definition of a politician.

tkb417:
wrong!!!
How can you say a political critic is not a politician. Do you have to contest elective posts b4 u can be called a politician?

Falana, Afe babalola, Soyinka, Keyamo, Dokubo, MEND, are all politicians

so you want to give your own definition to the word 'politician'?
That you think they are politicians, does not make them politicians. To prove your point, post a reference defining 'politician' that covers 'political critic' (and not some broad definition of politics), and stop trying to redefine the English language.

Kilode?!:
There is a gross lack of knowledge about politics and who a politician is in Nigeria, I blame that on the long years of military rule, and their attempt to keep the population in ignorance and under control i.e they removed simple civic education from the school curricula in the 80s & 90s.

Coupled with what we've seen in the last decades, that is why a lot of us are cynical. Soyinka has always been a politician, a social critic can by extention be political, MLk, Ghandi, even Rush Limbaugh in the US, it is not necessary to form a party and you can form one also to put pressure on govt or create a larger platform for your cause, you don't even have to win a single seat, pressure groups are an integral part of politics?

They can form a party(labour and green party in the western world) or align with other parties. Unfortunately, most of us grew up to know politicians as big men with agbadas and suits who occupy political offices. They've really messed with our head in this country. I see hope though.

I beg do not abuse the use of the word 'politician'.
Definition
1 : a person experienced in the art or science of government; especially : one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government
2(a) : a person engaged in party politics as a profession
(b) : a person primarily interested in political office for selfish or other narrow usually short-sighted reasons

So it is at 75 that he feels he has something to offer Nigerian politics?
Must he form his own party before he can contribute?
The guys should stick to his activism and criticism chores.

akinyemo:
Why can't he build on what the past Governor did?

Even if its wrong? The right approach is to always try to make things better, and when a mistake is made, we learn from it and retrace our foot steps. An economic system is never perfect.

People should not confuse the UB issue (introduced by Joseph Sanusi) with the N25B capitalization (implemented by Soludo). The same  N25B capitalization (or more) can still be required of 'national' commercial banks or anyone with multiple licenses. .

adigun101:
Although I wont say I fully understand the highlighted but you need to be careful because "Doctoring of books" is a matter of Conjecture.

Conjecture? If you fail to present a true picture of your accounts, you have doctored your books. That is why you have auditors, because there is a right way of doing it.

I say so because it is common knowledge the account balancing and book keeping is a matter of declaring you assets/earnings against your liabilities/expenditure. Now the interpretation of a non-performing loan is also based on interpretation.

Based on interpretation? There are standards for classifying loans as non-performing assets and provisioning for them, which are clearly defined in the SAS 10 as
- Interest and/or Principal outstanding for over 90 days but less than 180 days to be classified as 'Substandard' and provisioned at 10%
- Interest and/or Principal outstanding for over 180 days but less than 360 days to be classified as 'Doubtful' and provisioned at 50%
- Interest and/or Principal outstanding for over 360 days to be classified as 'Lost' and provisioned at 100%
Sanusi didn't write the SAS, the NASB publishes it.

Even as we haven't the details on whet the extent of doctoring was. The EDW was always paid back by the banks and wasn't open indefinitely as you making it sound the issue I beleive you are talking about was the level of indebtedness as a ratio of the banks total capital.
Borrowing money from EDW is not a problem on its own but might indicate liquidity problems.
But that was why the EDW was created by Soludo in the first place.

The EDW had a tenure of 360 days, and the banks were simply claiming they had not defaulted yet (not that they were repaying - paying back to borrow a larger sum does not qualify). The issue was that for the 6 month since the opening of the EDW, those guys were increasing their obligations to the CBN. If you are as solvent as you claim in your books, then why are your persistently borrowing?
The banks were insolvent before the EDW was created, yet their statement were painting rosy pictures.

The results of the audits were based on sanusis interpretation and is still being disputed by the likes of PHB and Oceanic Banks.

Audits are not based on Sanusi's interpretations. The SAS is clear on the issues.

All banks with investment operations are exposed to the stock market crash even if they had done it in Europe, Asia or US. So I dont know what you mean when you say stock market.

Information from the market lets us know how much the banks lost to the crash, and its not some figures that Sanusi cooked up.

Any honest person that processes all the available information will reach the same conclusions. The bank statements simply didnt reflect a true picture of the banks.

@dancewith
Please lay off the 'H-D-rade'. It has never worked in developing, low labor quality economy like Nigeria, and it will never will. It simply the wrong model to apply.

akintun:
i think in this country we never think of the future. We just follow what westerners do and do it wrongly. I have the feeling that sanusi just listens to the debate that goes on about the current financial crisis and he tends to lean towards traditional bankers and hardliners in the west, but western government that adopted the policy of combining commercial and investing banking together in the early 90's are not foolish enough to abolish such policies now until the investment arm of their big banks cover up the losses made by their commercial arms.

i dont understand it when people say that banks can now borrow money to the real sector. i wonder the real sector we have in nigeria that can generate enough operating profit to pay interest on a 30 percent loan.

As far as I know, legal Universal Banking in the US started post 1999, after the passing of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. The US acted retroactively to legalize the illegal moves of banks like Citigroup who had earlier acquired Travelers. The move was pushed by the big banks, and there was nothing conclusive on if the move would be beneficial to the entire economy. In retrospect, the US government is having second thoughts.

Lets wait for the replacements, and see them delivering, before shouting hallelujah.
This is not the first cabinet reshuffle in Naija

naijaking1:
^^^
Back again, round and round the argument goes. "The executives doctored their papers" has been Sanusi's mantra, you're free to chant it as many times as you like, but it doesn't change the fact that those are merely allegations since the executives have not confessed to it and no court has convicted them yet.
Your MEND example is poor, but since you didn't even know the full function of the court, how could I have expected you to understand how prejudicial statments from Sanusi have been.

MEND example is poor, why?

That the bank doctored their books is not a matter of Sanusi's opinion, but of the data from the EDW, the stock market, results of the audit etc or are all these based on Sanusi's opinions as well? The facts are there for all to see. Sanusi's personal opinion will not change the facts.

Its just funny that you feel a confession is needed to establish the truth

BTW the executives doctored their books!

coolG:
[color=#006600][/color]

Once again, i am forced to state that your arguments always seems to project you as someone sitting on one side of the fence irrespective of superior arguments, evidence and facts. Someone just called you out on your consistent understating of the work of previous CBN administration, you denied it but simultaneously launched an attack on the previous CBN Governor that his background does not prepare him for that aspect (i guess you are referring to supervision) of the CBN. What in your humble opinion, does the current CBN Governor not have in his background to prepare him for any aspect (you can think of) of the CBN?

International exposure, which would affect his monetary policies. 

naijaking1:
Constituted authorities such as the CBN governor know better that to say things that will interfer, violate, and prejudice impending court cases, you know that.
A minister saying someone in his office is corrupt and deserved to be shot is not the same thing as common masses accussing the minister of wrong doing. Of course Sanusi has a right to first amendment, or free speech as an individual, but when he speaks as the CBN governor, his pronouncements carry the weight of that office, because it goes along way to biasing many opinions down stream, rightly or wrongly.
Could you imagine the president or acting president say something like that? His speech would cascade into a ripple effect that would influence the action of the police, army, national assembly, and yes even the court.

So all those pubic officials that condemned MEND for the warri bombing should have kept quiet? Do their comments change the fact that MEND bombed the government house in warri?

In the same vein, what has Sanusi's comment got to do with the fact that the executives doctored the books? You might have a problem with Sanusi expressing his personal opinion in the media, but that those not change the facts that the executives doctored their books.

agabaI23:
I know it is not sanusi vs soludo but the passion with which you defended sanusi and capitulated soludo made me wanna know if it is[b] a case of blind allegiance[/b]. I have heard what i wanted to hear.

Blind allegiance? I no sabi d guy from Adam, and if he goes the way of typical Nigerian office holders, I will be the first to ask for his head.

An example is Tunde Lemo, who I felt (back then) should have been appointed CBN governor ahead of Soludo, but after the nonsense that went on under his nose as DG supervision, I want the guy removed and probed. One can criticize Soludo for not being effective enough in supervision, but we must also admit that Soludo's background didnt prepare him for that aspect of the CBN. and more so, nobody knows it all. Lemo on the other hand has no excuse IMO, and even if Soludo had hampered him in performing his duties (which I seriously doubt), he should have been honorable enough to resign.

All I am interested in is what I think is good for Nigeria. I have no allegiance to anyone, irrespective of ethnicity or religion.

agabaI23:
biina,
can sanusi ever go wrong? Has he done anything wrong?

Was their anything good about soludo?

Like someone said, this is not Sanusi v Soludo, but still

1. So far, Sanusi has not done anything wrong IMO, but he has failed to do somethings. Primarily, I am waiting for a clamp down on the forex black market. I dont have much hope that Sanusi would do this (after all na im people dey there) but I hope his successor will.

2. Soludo had some good ideas, but was appointed ahead of his time. We needed a 'Sanusi' before a 'Soludo'. I would have liked Soludo being a DG under a Sanusi type, before assuming the office of Governor. Lax supervision and malpractices often made Soludo's policies miss their targets. Still one has to credit him for maintaining a high level of forex reserve during the oil price boom.

naijaking1:
^^^
If Sanusi has not convicted anybody, why did he call for some people still awaiting trial to be shot?

He said they deserved to be shot, which was simply his own opinion that carries no legal weight, and is far from a conviction (which only the courts can do). I dont remember a law against the CBN governor having his own opinion

naijaking1:
Accussing Sanusi(and other public office holders) of wrong doing is not the same as Sanusi accussing/alleging/convicting/punishing people for offences he and him alone has sole jurisdiction over. Why is this too difficult for you to understand?
You're right, sometimes I mispell while typing, I think they called it typographical errors. Once they make a machine that could help you type as fast as you think, I will solve that problem.
But for a grown-up man to walk around not knowing the full function of our court? That's got to be scarry, and you should really get a small book to educate yourself about basic civics. More scarry is the possibility that Sanusi himself thinks and misunderstands this small basic approach to governance too.

Like I said before, you want an uneven playing field.

Sanusi is not alleging the doctoring of books or the mismanagement of funds; the evidence are there for all (except the likes of you) to see. The CBN simply acted on the evidence available.Sanusi wasnt the auditor that inspected the bank books nor was is he the one that keeps the EDW records. There were suspicions and an audit was carried out. Sanusi acted on the result of the audit. Are you now accusing the auditors of foul play as well or that the EDW records under Soludo were falsified?

Sanusi has not convicted anyone. The audit revealed impropriety, and Sanusi acted appropriately by removing the executives. It is left to the courts to determine if the impropriety was criminal (and not to determine if there were any impropriety). But seems you would have preferred Sanusi shirking his responsibility so that the executives can continue mismanaging the banks and doctoring the books.  But sorry to disappoint you, he wont, and the executives duly got fired.

Now if you feel so disgruntled with Sanusi's actions, please feel free to seek redress in the court of law. After all, I expect you have evidence to support your view that the executives werent doctoring their books (or you dont? ).

Just so we are clear, the executives doctored their books!

Vladmir 2:
I think @biina,was just sheding light on the licensing aspect of the proposed proposal.Mr.Sanusi is emphasizing on the operational procedures of the future types of banks,and from what i understood from his proposal,a commercial bank would never be an investment bank and vice-versa.its very obvious that diversification reduces risk and operational cost,while maximazing the use of assets(capital).

Like it did with the recent collapsed institutions in the US?

The issue I suspect CBN might have with the UB license is that a bank can move in and out of segments without further recourse to the CBN.This makes supervision and auditing more difficult, as opposed to a streamlined license, under which I expect you to continuously practice with the license or risk losing it. I think they should be able to keep the all-in-one license (even if under a different name) and might just need to define new requirements for it, though I think such details are less relevant, as any bank who desires can acquire as many licenses as it wants.

As to growing an economy and its different stages, Mikeansy's earlier post is a bit misleading. First, the banking sector is not the entire economy, and the CBN is only regulating the banking sector. Lack of diversity is a problem with the entire economy,not the banking sector. Secondly, the move to the new licensing regime, will likely open the door for new participants in the sector, allowing a bank to grow from a regional scope to a national scope, or move into new segments as its resources and expertise grows. Will this not diversify and help economic growth in the sector?

Following Mikeansy's illustration, do you train your child good manners at infancy or wait till he is matured? I have never seen a grown man learn new manners. I disagree that in the name of development, we should let things run haywire. If we do so, what you would have is bubble-and-bust cycles. This is evidence by the recent dot.com bust and the current financial recession. Poor regulation is a recipe for disaster, and at the end, the public often ends up paying for the excesses of a few. A house should be built on a solid foundation,and not trying to solidify the foundation after the house is built.

There is no such thing as a genius 

Its the universal banking license thats being discontinued and not universal banking

naijaking1:
Another bad example. Sanusi is a public offical, we can criticie him and even accusse him of wrong doing, but only a court can try and convict him.
Now, which of your elementary school civic lessons did you miss that I have to use my precious N/L time to teach you about the courts and their functions.---- not sharia of course.

oh! double standard eh?
So you can accuse and pass judgment on Sanusi, but not so on the sacked executives or anyone else (including Nzeogwu that was also a public official). I thot you said only the courts can establish the truth.
You want to have one set of rule for the goose, and another for the gander?
You my friend are an hypocrite in every ramification of the word.

BTW speaking of elementary classes, seems you missed several spelling classes

I guess that response makes your position quite clear.
Hence, your definitive statements about Sanusi damaging the economy are hypocritical, after all, the issue is under dispute, and has not been proven in a court of law. Henceforth, please desist from making such statements as regards what Sanusi did or the effects of his actions in the future.