₦airaland Forum

mikeansy:
I do not put the sins of any individual on any religion, I just condemn a religion's refusal to condemn violence within its midst

when will a world renowned Muslim cleric or leader condemn Al-qaeda and its followers

Can you endorse the fact that Al-qaeda are a terrorist organisation that should have no place in any religion? (My guess is that in your next four post you will be unable to condemn al-qaeda)

So what then do you classify as, the statements by Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah al Sheik condemning terrorism.? or is he not high ranking enough?

You make reference to al-qaeda, as if Al-qaeda is propagating Islam. Do they not have issues with Saudi Arabia and the royal family itself?

I just condemned terrorism a few post earlier. Of what relevance is my condemnation/approval of Al-qaeda with reference to Islam, moreso I am not even a muslim. Alqaeda is bad - happy?

People condemn terrorism (or what others deem terrorism) based on their individual judgement. It similar to the debate poeple have as to MEND figting for justice or beoing common criminals - the choice is not based on religion.

mikeansy:
It makes me feel good when the only habbits u can find amongst christains to compare to even today's muslims are histories of the attrocities that took place in the christendome in probably 12th to 15th century.

It simply shows how world apart these two religions are as far as civilization goes.

Again with the quick self-righteous proclamation. Did the muslim genocide by Serbians occur in the 15th century?

It is not about one religion being good or bad, but simply do not put the sins of the individuals on the religion.

dayokanu:
Bayern attracted Luca toni, Miro Klose, Franck Ribery, Roy Makaay, Lucio

Except for Ribery (and possibly luca toni when he was signed), I dont see the stars in the rest.

The age a player joins does not matter. Figo and Zidane joined Madrid about 30 years old and to say Juergen Klinsman was not a star player is completely ridiculous He was placed 2nd in the Ballon D'or of 1995 and you mean he is not a star player i made him to be?

Cannavaro won the FIFA world player at 33, and I guess that makes him a star signing for madrid, even though his best years were well beyond him, being spent at parma and juventus.
Figo joined madrid in 2000 at the age of 28, while Zidane joined 2001 at the age of 29. Both were closer to the average peak age of a outfield players (about 28yrs) than klinsmann was at 31yrs.
Yet at 31, Zidane and Figo were every much the player that Klinsmann could never be (even at his prime).
If you feel at 31, a klinsmann that was looking to wind down his career at his local league was a star signing, then Blanc must have been a galactico when he signed for ManU.
Ironically, your star signing retired 4 seasons later back at tottenham. I guess he wanted to quit while he was still at the top

As to your argument about domestic leagues yes they are not of equal strenght thats why I would use the CL as the sole basis for rating.

If you go to South America Man Utd would not feature among the clubs being discussed there.

Man Utd being popular among Chinese and in places where football is not developed is B-S to me.

The main continents that are great in football Europe and South America where does Man Utd rate?
Its like measuring the popularity of footballers among teenage girls as a basis to judge the better footballer.
Left to teenage girls Beckham is greater than Maradona, Pele Zidane and Ronaldo joined together.

The debate is not about which is club has the stronger team, but about which is the biggest.
For me the popularity of a club (be it to a bald headed Tibetan monk or with the Baniwa tribe of the Amazon) counts towards an evaluation of it as a big club. The farther your reputation precedes you, the bigger the club you are. 
Or do you think academic strength is the only criterion for deciding top schools, or only mechanical efficiency is used in determining top auto makers?
There is a reason why an E-class is more valuable than a Camry, and believe me, it is not the fuel efficiency.

He can talk, but lets wait and see him walk.

dayokanu:
Tell us about the success on the field which is the real basis for assessing football clubs and how Man Utd beats Barcelona and Bayern in this.

Bayern attracted Jean Pierre Papin, Klinsman and Ballack. Aside Veron which big player.

Biina Using the same metric you brought forth Man Utd still does nt stand at 3rd unless there is an X factor you did not mention

To give you an example of what the discussion would be like and why it is point less

1. Papin was acquired in 1994 at the age of 31yrs, from mIlan for GBP 2.1M. Milan had bought him from Marseille for GBP 6-10M and he had failed to live up to expectation failing to break into the first team. he spent the star years at Marseille and was not the major star you portray him to be when he joined Bayern.

2. Similarly, Klinsmann joined Bayern in 1995 at the age of 31 from tottenham. He was on a downturn in his career and was not the star player you make him out to be.

That leaves Ballack on your list as the palyer that was signed by bayern as a star when he was desired by many.

But I am almost sure you will disagree with my above analysis and thus it is a futile exercise.

As to domestic success which is simply the league IMO (like UCL is european success), one should consider the strength of the opposition, and I would put FA cups along with other titles like UEFA cup, intercontinental cup, super cup, and any other trophies under honors.

ManU have won 18 league titles (6 in the last 10 yrs, 10 in the last 15, and 11/20), all has the English league has risen to prominence based on their performance in Europe (as refelected in the UEFA league coeeficient).

Bayern has won 21 league titles (5/10, 8/15, 10/20), but the german league has been declining in strength of recent.

Barca has won 18 league titles (3/10,  6/15, 9/20) while the spanish league has remained in the top three for the better part of the decade

For me ManU is currently the more successful of the clubs, but then again, you would likely disagree.

dayokanu:
You posted this as your metrics and the stats I brought forth does not agree with your conclusion. If you did you ratings based on the criteria you listed there is no way in Hell Man Utd would be third above Bayern or Barcelona

and therein lies the problem. You are convinced that ManU should not be third and thus no matter which metric I use, you will either try to interpret differently such that ManU is not third, or discard the metric in its entirety.

I provided my list, you are free to use your own metric and come up with your own rankings.

dayokanu:
Biina,
I am waiting for your reply about the metrics you brought up and quantify it in a way that would support your assertion that Man Utd is 3rd in Europe

Am not sure what you want me to do, as we obviously put different weights on different things. The drag on about how much importance to put on which UCL title was tiring enough, that I am less interested in comparing league titles, when they are won, and what the strength of the league was. Nor am I interested in the Ballon d'or count argument that you were having with Sauron over which club had the more star players.

I told you the factors I considered and what my outcome was. You obviously feel differently and have posted your own list. I don't see the point in wasting time on the issue as I doubt we would come to an agreeable list.

I think being a world cup year would have also influenced his decision.
The current Argentine squad is not doing as well as expected in the qualifying rounds, and heads would likely roll sooner or later.
He probably was afraid of not getting enough time at United to ensure a starting shirt for the world cup, and is simply looking for a club where he would be ther number one (or two) choice upfront.

Its definitely a loss for united, but no player should be bigger than the club.
The key issue is how ManU decides to fill up slots left by CR and Tevez.
The tipped replacements like Benzema and co will not come cheap.

Elections do not equate to democracy. The Iranian government system is closer to a theocracy than a democracy.

mikeansy:
Pope controlled army

Constantine is regarded as the first pope by some (as against  St Peter).

If you are a muslim be man enough to denounce terrorism
you won't die cos of it. Its that simple

People that condone terrorism or any other act that is deemed criminal by most, will find justification for the act, irrespective of their religion. I personally condemn terrorism and similar criminal acts.
I also disapprove of sweeping judgment of another religion simply based on the actions of words of a fraction of its practitioners, and I feel those who defend such views are guilty as well.
If you don't like sweeping statements about your religion, you shouldn't defend those that make such remarks about the religion of others.

As to the Khomeni event, his utterances are inflammatory and disappointing coming from a cleric, but less surprising if one views him as another politician (as that is what I see him as). Iranians should be encouraged to find a peaceful resolution to the issue, and not be inflamed by any of their leaders. Mousavi should not risk innocent lives in a bid to further his own political ambitions.

Yet all this is simply politics and has less to do with Islam. (and FYI I am not a muslim)

lastpage:
For folks who think it is okay to use horse-whip on Traders because they did not do environmental sanitation, well, ,
the only thing l can say of such people is that "you're who you say you are".
If their self-esteem and self prestige is very low, (something to do with upbringing and the environment under which they grew up), there is nothing "lastpage" can do about it.
I still feel it is wrong to use Horse-whip on humans

Why are you distorting the facts. The article states clearly that the police whipped those that resisted the close down of the market.
what would you have had the police do instead, pat them on the back, or scurry back to the station?
If you have a credible source with a contradicting account, then lets have it.

Nobody has said it is right for the police to whip anybody indiscriminately, but like anywhere else in the world, if you obstruct the enforcement of law, the police have the right to use appropriate force to deal with the hindrance, be it batons, horsewhips, tazers, or hollow point bullets.

As for the gutter language, you are free to express yourself in any manner you deem fit.

lacicrips:
They are always in the wrong my dear. I wish you could just come down to Nigeria, and experience some of these things.

All hail the man who know tomorrow!
So the next time someone is arrested for armed robbery, we should ignore the facts, and simply release him 'cos the NPF are always wrong.
But then why wait, rather we should go and let all prisoners out of our prisons, as the NPF was always wrong in arresting them.

mikeansy:
Another ridiculous argument to justify irationality

There are a whole host of verses in old testament which do not reconcile with the New Testament.

The basis of Christanity is the new testament, most of what u have in the old testament are drawn from Jewish laws for educational purposes only. There are also things like the teachings of 'an eye for an eye' which christanity does not support because christainiity preaches forgiveness.

If you have a proof of any world recognised leader of the christain church standing on the pulpit and encouraging violence like the Ayotollah did yesterday pull it out lets see.

We see people time and time again kill people in the name of Islam and those who want to claim this terrorist do not represent their religion will not denounce this terrorist publicly. 
I think the Islamic world has some serious work to do, they need to go far enough to prove that Islam does not condone violence . . .and in my assessment they are not doing enough at the moment.

You have simply given your understanding of Christianity, and there is no law that states that others have to agree with you. Each is free to make a judgent on what he deems relevant and superseded. Example, some people feel tithes are not applicable to christians, some feel otherwise.

The Ayatollah is not only a religious personality, but also the supreme head of Iran. Why then have you ascribed his statements to him as a muslim speaking on behalf of Islam, and not as the political supreme head of Iran? or are the US and UK referenced in the Quran?

History is littered with atrocities conducted by 'Christians' including the crusade and the pope controlled roman army.
Did the church not persecute people for thinking the world is flat?
Even more recently, didn't the serbian orthodox church approve of muslim genocide?

An individual's approval (or otherwise) of terrorism is not the position of a religion, or are you saying all Muslims support terrorism?
Or people that disapprove of terrorism are only non-Muslims?

Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah al Sheik (highest Sunni cleric in Saudi) condemned terrorism but you did not make reference to such, but only wait for the quotes of those that buttress your biased opinions.

Terrorism is wrong and should be condemned, but i have not heard of it being a tenet of Islam.

You should try not to be bigot in your view of others and their religion. The self righteous view was a short coming of the pharisees.

lacicrips:
probably never even been to Nigeria before.

With posts like this, one man -one vote becomes a questionable standard.

[quote author=Aloy.Emeka link=topic=285847.msg4062304#msg4062304 date=1245520705]It's obvious that biina and co have not lived in Nigeria for one day. they are yet to grasp the fact that our police is very unruly. The way they will arrive to the area in the first place like they are closing in on a terrorist will send shock waves to the public. They also forgot that were children in that vicinity who were exposed to all kinds of danger because of the stampede. All these because the LAW must be kept and the said LAW is cleaning the surroundings. Pathetic![/quote]There you go again with baseless conclusions. Yet, assuming that your hypothetical scenario is true, what right does living in Nigeria give you to misrepresent the facts?
Does the Nigerian Police leave much to be desired? yes
Does that mean they are always in the wrong? No.
Example:
Have the Nigerian police ever arrested an innocent man? Yes
Does that mean everyone arrested is innocent? No
Things should be judged on a case by case basis.

We are not evaluating the overall performance of the NPF, but simply looking into a single occurrence.
Based on the contents of the article, there is nothing to suggest that the police acted in the wrong.
Trying to state emphatically, yet falsely, what happened simply based on your perception of the NPF is wrong.

If the police were said to have whipped innocent people, or acted indiscriminately, I would agree with your views, but to simply conclude that with no evidence except hearsay, is not acting in the best interests of all.

Stick to the facts and keep your imagination out of the discussion.

dayokanu:
Krayola,

Does Ronaldinho look like someone suffering from acute autism

The press love Ronaldo that is a fact but given his status in football then He is not a press lover.

His personal life. Do you know Barthez dated a supermodel? Does that make him a press guy. How many footballers date/marry models does that mean they are friendly to the press?
Who doesnt criticize Pele. Criticising is not a sign of being media friendly. Pele attacked him and he replied Does that mean he loves the media

Which soccer star does not have sponsorship deals. Messi has a lot Is he a media guy too?

If you want to know Media friendly guys , Give his talent and success to Beckham, C.Ronaldo or Dinho and see what they would make of it.
Do you know the names of Ronaldos Girlfriend or kids? yet everyone knows when Beckhams children close from school

so if he is not press friendly, outside of beckham, which football stars were friendlier with the press?
The fact that I didnt know about Barthez affair with a model, point to him being media shy.
I dont know exact details of Beckham's or Ronaldo's personal life off hand. I have more useful things on my mind.
Ronaldo had enough press coverage on and off the field, that I am shocked one would think he is media shy.
People that are media shy, shun controversy and try to keep their personal life out of the press. Thinking of such people, Kaka comes to mind.
Ronaldo was no altar boy.

dayokanu:
So do your weighing statistically and come up with a ranking which would retain madrid as first, and Man Utd as second as you posited earlier. ahead of Milan, Bayern, Barcelona and co

Why do you rate them ahead of Barcelona

I dont understand your post especially the bolded part, then you might want to state the criteria you are using for this rating.
I hope you wont include finest Jersey, Fan base, Biggest stadium, popularity, youngest players

I corrected the previous post.

My ranking was
1. Madrid
2. Milan
3. ManU
4. Bayern
5. Barelona
6. Liverpool
7. Ajax

The question was who was the biggest club and not simply who was the most successful in europe.
I considered success at both domestic and european levels, honors, popularity, history and pedigree, value, revenue, star players, player attraction etc.
Outside of european success, I think ManU is tied or has a leg up on any opf the other clubs you mentioned.

Of course you are free to come up with your own metrics.

A guy that acted in a soap opera, dated an actress , and married a footballer and a model in a luxurious wedding, was involved in a scandal with transvestites, has made controversial statements including criticizing pele, and had numerous sponsorship and ad deals, was press shy?
Dinho is nowhere near the celebrity status of Ronaldo.
Or have you forgotten his pose as the Christ the redeemer statue?
https://www.gt.pirelli.com/es_AR/browser/attachments/images/AdvRonaldobassa_30Mayrox.jpg

dayokanu:
Its one of two things, We disregard those titles won in ancient times or we count it.
We cant count those titles when it comes to Madrid and not count them when it comes to Bayern or Ajax.

I ahve not said the titles shouldnt be counted, just the weight accorded them shoul not be equal.
If you decide to disregard old titles, where do you draw the line?
Even if you count all the titles, that would be the only area in which liverpool is superior to manU and it is not enough to make them a bigger club than ManU

All of Ajax, Bayern, Liverpool have won the CL version so they are all above Man Utd.
I am still waiting for why you feel Bayern and Barcelona should be behind Man Utd in your ratings. Doesnt make any sense to me.

If we are looking at UCL success, I would rate Barca as first given their 3 successes came in the last two decades, but if we are strictly counting titles all three would be ahead of ManU.
But then as I have already said, we cannot use only UCL wins to evaluate the biggest club.

dayokanu:
I dont think the bald head of Zidane has much marketing appeal either, nor the teeth of Ronaldo Lima and these 2 are notoriously press shy. Yet they command high transfer fees based on their talent and form.

The only reason Barca would pick Ribery for less is if Messi or Iniesta is included in the deal .

Barcelona wont want a showdown with Bayern over Ribery. Txiki is a close friend of Hoeness and Kalle

Ronaldo press shy!!!!!! you must have been on a different planet.

A lot goes into the worth of player beyond his abilities on the field. His marketability also counts, and even then I believe Kaka is the better player.
(outside of Man city) 70 million for Ribery will not happen. I think 40-50M is a more plausible range.

Ribery is likely headed to Madrid (courtesy of the Zidane effect and willingness to splash out the cash), with ManU being second(they need a big signing to fill the void left by CR and likely Tevez). Barca dont need Ribery, and so I dont see them breaking the bank for him.

While Ribery is the better player, I think Silva would be the better buy for madrid. Silva is left footed and would bring some balance to the proposed madrid midfield.
Ribery would be perfect for ManU and would bring so needed 1-1 creative ability to the pass dependent ManU attack.

dayokanu:
To all those eyeing Franck Ribery here is bad news

In response, the FC Bayern Munich AG board of directors has issued a statement setting out the facts:

1. There has not been any resolution made by the FC Bayern Munich AG supervisory board relating in any way to the subject of selling the club’s player Franck Ribéry.

2. The procedural rules governing the transfer (sale) of a player by the FC Bayern Munich AG board of directors do not require the prior approval of the supervisory board.

3. The FC Bayern Munich AG board of directors has unanimously resolved not to offer the player Franck Ribéry for sale.
http://www.fcbayern.t-home.de/en/news/news/2009/19831.php?fcb_sid=09b9236d54fd1bc08dca5658796488e7

Not offering for sale, does not mean they would not sell if the right offer comes along or the player decides to leave. Bayern just wants a lot of money for him.

IMO bayern should auction the guy off now, else they stand to lose all in 2011 as he would just pull another Ballack on them. If Ribery wants to move this summer, and bayern blocks it, they should forget about selling him next summer or him renewing his contract, as he would simply wait one more season and walk out on them at 28yr. With a free transfer, he would be able to negotiate a much higher salary. Ribery antics with marseille showed where his loyalty lies.

Krayola:
@ Debosky . . .Real Madrid's new season kits are out. Only 3 shirt's are numbered

1- Iker Casillas
4- Sergio Ramos
7- Raul Gonzalez

The rest are number-less. Mass exodus. . .Perez no send anybody.

Perez said five players are coming in, and nine are leaving

mikeansy:
Another silly post!!!

Anyday I go to church and they insite violence from the pulpit, I will stop going to that church.

If christainity associates itself with terrorism and do not speak out against violence, I will quit the religion.

The usual double standard. A post is termed silly simply because the measure used on Islam was used on Christianity
Somebody concluded from the occurrence in a single mosque, that the entire religion of Islam was savage and blood thirsty, and you saw nothing wrong with it, but took exception when same logic was applied to Christianity. Matthew 7:12 says do unto others as you have do unto you.

I don't know which church you go to, but I have witnessed enough pastors praying and preaching for the death of their enemies and /or enemies of their congregation and/or the church.

The fact that I can support my wrong actions based on my narrow interpretation of selected text of the bible does not mean Christianity supports my actions, or was it not stated in Leviticus 20:13 to kill homosexuals

Islam does not preach terrorism, and the facts that some terrorists are Muslims is not a valid argument. After all the terrorists in Ireland or Spain were not Muslims, nor were the Suicide bombers employed by Germany and japan during world war II.

Let each man be held responsible for his actions and/or sins, and not paint an entire religion with broad strokes.

Kobojunkie:
I responded. I only wait for you to actually get to answering the question asked. I mean giving me what you have above does not help at all. The question stands. 
I am not of the PROFFERING SOLUTION crowd so I am not going to waste my time trying to come up with one for you when we have DAILY EXAMPLES of how governments around the world conduct their business even when  some of the people RESIST. To ASSUME that the only way a government can carry out its business in Nigeria is by USING WHIPS on members of the public, many of whom are definitely innocent, and essentially creating chaos  is the only ways paints a picture of how you see yourself as a human.
Why do you ask? Are you government? Are you a policeman, a government official? What good will anyone telling you do at this point? I mean the market has been closed down; does PROFERRING MORE SOLUTIONS ON NAIRALAND help? Just some of the things one ought to think of before asking such questions on nairaland.

In summary, you don't know of an alternative method. You didn't need to type an epistle to say that.
Of what use is your criticism and condemnation, if you have no idea of a way forward?
Where is your evidence that the majority of the people whipped were innocent people? or you feel you can simply take liberty in fabricating your own version of the occurrence.

lacicrips:
Abeg let's close this matter. Seems we're not getting anywhere with it.

We all know our Nigerian police, they are barbaric and wicked with no human feelings. I believe they chased and whipped everybody, be you a trader, a passerby, a resistant or whatever. They're bunch of never do wells. We see what they do to their fellow Nigerians everyday.

and your believe makes it the truth or a fact?
You should avoid passing judgment on others based simply on your gut feeling, as you would not be receptive to same.

[quote author=~Sauron~ link=topic=283130.msg4061663#msg4061663 date=1245510371]I won't be wasting my money.
It's not that Arsenal lack talents in their squad that they don't win. . . . .It is because the squad is so small and they burn out when they are expected to stand up and be counted in the latter stage of the season.
By February, they are left with 10 decent players while their rivals can still boast of 18-20 decent players to make the final push.[/quote]Nah. Arsenal lack that champion's edge. They are too comfortable with being second best.
As much as I dont like manU, I respect SAFs winning mentality. The likes of Capello, Mourinho and co also have same.
They treat being second almost like a failure and I feel you need that mental attitude to become a champion.

Lyon: Karim Benzema May Go To Manchester United
Lacombe, who acts as an advisor to Lyon president Jean-Michel Aulas, has stated that a bid could come in from the Manchester based club in the summer.
The Lyon advisor also stated that if the offer is big enough, the club would have to accept it, much like they did with the £24 million offer they received from Chelsea for midfielder Michael Essien.
Speaking to Progres, Lacombe said, "He is with us, but nobody knows what will happen.
"We didn’t think Michael Essien would leave at the time, but when Chelsea arrived with the cheque,
"If Manchester, who as we know have plenty of cash available, want to buy Benzema, what can you do?”
http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/465/france/2009/06/20/1336669/lyon-karim-benzema-may-go-to-manchester-united

I pity united, as bobos don they plan for money wey never land
Madrid might end up with the last laugh, as a substantial amount of their money will possibly comeback into their pocket.

[quote author=~Sauron~ link=topic=283130.msg4061528#msg4061528 date=1245507892]I am willing to bet Arsenal will win the UCL if they make it their top priority regardless of where they finish on the league table.
All they have to do is play the Wilsheres, Jay Simpsons and Kieran Gibbs in the league and roll out the big guns for the UCL ties.[/quote]You will simply be wasting your money. I will never bet on arsenal winning the UCL, same as I would never bet on Liverpool winning the EPL.

@dayokanu
If you feel Nottingham forest, a club which just got promoted from the 3rd level English league, is in the same bracket with clubs like Juventus and Inter, then we are on different wavelengths. I doubt I would mention Nottingham forest when considering the top 30 biggest clubs, same as I am unlikely to list Uruguay when naming 10 great soccer nations.

@bollingjoe
The European cup and the game of soccer itself has evolved over the years. It is obviously more difficult to win in the modern day than it was back then. For instance only single entries were allowed from each league and thus the competition was softer.

Madrid won the first five editions of the cup. If they had failed to win any more till now, I would deem the likes of Bayern as being more successful than them. For example, before the 98 win, I would deem AC milan as being more successful than Madrid, having won 5 titles with 3 in the last 10yrs, as opposed to Madrid's 6, with the last one being 30yrs old in 1966.

I feel the older the title is, the lesser its comparative value should be.

All that aside, I dont think UCL success should be the sole criterion for determining the biggest club. For instance, in determining the FIFA clubs of the 20th century, (not surprising) there was no significant mention of Nottingham forest.

Seems ManU will have to spend a major portion of the £80M on retooling the attack. Possible targets would be Ribery, Villa, Silva, Benzema and Ibrahimovic, but their clubs would likely want a substantial amount plus an arm and a leg.
This is turning out to be an interesting summer so far.

Again you are try to use the UCL as the only criterion for determining who is the bigger club. Using that criterion makes Nothingam forest 12th biggest club in europe