₦airaland Forum

IFELEKE:
T.I.N! This Is Nigeria _{where turai is more powerful than umaru}

Do you have any precedence to support your argument, or its just based on he said, she said?
The article itself is shabby ,as you pardon, and not grant amnesty, to a prisoner.

It is always saddening when Nigerian jump to condemn someone simply on the basis of ethnicity, yet same people will cry foul if same was done to them.

Looking for incriminating evidence at all cost, Sanusi's (correct IMO) criticism of the Yoruba bourgeois is quoted as evidence of his tribal bias, while his criticism of the Sardauna, and recognition of Awolowo, were totally ignored.
Unfortunately, most have not bothered to read the entire article, but for those that read it, the veracity of the thread title is likely questionable.

On a side note, its amusing how most southerners are always quick to convict the northerners for being power greedy, but few ever raise questions as to why Ironsi took power, after all the Nzeogwu coup and 'failed' and only a handful of civilian office holders had been killed. The parliament was still intact, and the civilian government could have continued with the support of the military.

Ijawman:
What is his name? Most likely an Akin, Ojo or Bayo. We know dem and their thief thief mentality

weren't Udom Ekpoudom and Jonathan Johnson both previous CPs in Oyo state, and the current CP Bashiru Azeez used to be in Enugu?
What has tribe got to do with police posting?

Inter denies the Ibra for Eto + €10M trade

Transfer market: when the theory is groundless,

MILAN - During the transfer window, a headline in a newspaper is enough to transform groundless rumours into truth. This is what has happened today after the article published in Barcelona newspaper El Mundo Deportivo about a presumed deal between FC Internazionale and the Catalan club. Besides being completely unfounded, the presumed deal seems remote from any logic, even to the eyes of neutral observers. The report is, therefore, groundless.

http://www.inter.it/aas/news/reader?N=31595&L=en

Chelsea in for Atletico ace Aguero

Chelsea have made an offer of 50 million euros for Atletico Madrid's highly-rated Argentinian striker Sergio Aguero, according to English media reports on Wednesday.
The 21-year-old, who scored 17 goals last season to help Atletico claim a place in the Champions League, is one of the hottest properties in European football.
He said earlier this month that he wanted to stay in the Spanish capital but urged Atletico's owners to invest in player reinforcement to ensure the club was capable of making an impact among Europe's elite, suggesting he could be attracted by a switch to a club challenging for major honours every season.
The size of Chelsea's reported offer will severely test the resolve of the Atletico board to keep Aguero, who is the son-in-law of Diego Maradona.
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/10062009/3/chelsea-atletico-ace-aguero.html
[img]http://ariefantasista10.files./2008/03/sergioaguero.jpg[/img]

Libra38:
The Federal law does not permitt her to do so. But what about her state law?

I think we need to do some research here before jump into conclution.

As far as I know, only the president and the governors are able to grant pardons. I dont think a state law can grant her powers denied by the constitution as she is not recognized as a member of the executive.
From the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria 1999 http://www.nigeriacongress.org/resources/constitution/Constitution%20of%20the%20Federal%20Republic%20of%20Nigeria.htm

The power of the President to grant pardon
175(1) The President may -

(a) grant any person concerned with or convicted of any offence created by an Act of the National Assembly a pardon, either free or subject to lawful conditions;

(b) grant to any person a respite, either for an indefinite or for a specified period, of the execution of any punishment imposed on that person for such an offence;

(c) substitute a less severe form of punishment for any punishment imposed on that person for such an offence; or

(d) remit the whole or any part of any punishment imposed on that person for such an offence or of any penalty or forfeiture otherwise due to the State on account of such an offence.

(2) The powers of the President under subsection (1) of this section shall be exercised by him after consultation with the Council of State.

(3) The President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Council of State, may exercise his powers under subsection (1) of this section in relation to persons concerned with offences against the army, naval or airforce law or convicted or sentenced by a court martial."


The power of the Governor to grant pardon
212. (1) The Governor may -

(a) Grant any person concerned with or convicted of any offence created by any law of a state a pardon, either free or subject to lawful conditions;

(b) grant to any person a respite, of the execution of any punishment imposed on that person for such an offence;

(c) substitute a less severe form of punishment for any person for such an offence; or

(d) remit the whole or any part of punishment for any punishment imposed on that person for such any offence or of any penalty forfeiture otherwise due to the state on account of such an offence.

(2) The powers of the governor under subsection (1)of this section shall be exercised by him after consultation with such advisory council of the state on prerogative of mercy as may be established by law of the State.

[quote author=Aloy.Emeka link=topic=281878.msg4005368#msg4005368 date=1244626621]You are saying the governor knew all the prisoners  in his state by name?. Assuming the last Niger Delta bombing was orederd by the first lady, will you say yaradua already told her while in bed to order the bombing?[/quote]WTF are you talking about.

Depends on the aim of the relationship:

Short term: Something perishable or consumable: e.g. cakes, chocolate, wine, party, dinner, etc
Medium term: something with a suitable MTTF e.g. electronic gadget like phone or camera
Long term/marriage: Something durable to remember you by e.g. an engraved bracelet or chain and/or pendant.

Specifics would depend on the person and budget.

Re-denomination of the Naira is a waste of time and resources.
Currency re-denomination is mainly a cosmetic job, and is of no value if your currency and economy are still weak,and inflation is in double digits.
It was another one of Soludo's 'brilliant' theoretical ideas, that were of no real positive value to the economy.
In fact, if Soludo had implemented his idea, given our past history of prices defying gravity, we would have likely ended up with an alarming inflation rate that would have made effective prices much worse.
The yen has been trading to the dollar around the 100:1 mark for the past decade, and you dont hear the Japanese speaking of re-denomination.
The strength of your currency is more accurately revealed in its stability under open market. The weak nature of the Naira stem from our over dependence on crude oil for forex income and thus the value of the Naira fluctuates with crude oil prices
Nigerians should be grateful that the move was suspended, and hopefully it gets canceled permanently.

PS: The outcome of the poll is shocking.

@ethanol
Was this supposed to be a trick question?

MrCrackles:
Overrated no, but overpriced, YEAH!

The guy is damn overrated. He had no business winning FWPY. Take a look at other winners, and its obvious CR7 is no where near the caliber of those guys

2008 Cristiano Ronaldo  
2007 Kaká
2006 Fabio Cannavaro
2005 Ronaldinho
2004 Ronaldinho
2003 Zinédine Zidane
2002 Ronaldo
2001 Luís Figo
2000 Zinédine Zidane
1999 Rivaldo
1998 Zinédine Zidane
1997 Ronaldo
1996 Ronaldo
1995 George Weah
1994 Romário
1993 Roberto Baggio
1992 Marco van Basten
1991 Lothar Matthäus

Tell me someone on that list that CR7 is better than?

Both teams still have some work to do. I feel they can both play better.
Orlando's execution on the fast break is just nauseating.

@OP
Good looks is the least requirement for becoming a good wife. There are enough guys who would love you for who you are, but you have to be confident of yourself.
Have confidence in your looks. You fake it until you make it.

As per the bedmatics, don't be shy and thus risk becoming passive. Sex is very much like the NBA finals, you need to bring energy, effort and selflessness to the game.
Even if you don't have the practical experience, make sure you learn the theory by heart. Get a good book and improve your understanding of the male anatomy.
All cement bags are the same, na when u mix am u go no which one strong pass

C2H5OH:
ori e yi. after you punked out on the bet abi.

LOL

This is a dream game
wipes off my game 2 nightmares

This is playoff basketball, SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OP should rethink his rules and process.
You ask people to nominate contestants, no pictures are available, and you already have a poll ongoing   
The thread is Epic Fail! 

I think his true age is catching up with him. I seriously doubt that guy is 24.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=148652.msg4003380#msg4003380 date=1244588194]So who takes tonight's game?[/quote]Magics have to win tonight, otherwise we bring out the vacuum cleaner (it will be worse than a broom sweep)

It is possible that the first lady simply announced the pardon granted to the prisoners, as I expect the pardon to have been granted before the visit.
The pardon is granted by the governor, who is expected to have consulted with the judiciary and the Committee on the Prerogative of Mercy.
I doubt she could walk into the prison and set people free indiscriminately.

bawomolo:
what article are you guys talking about? lots of laker fans are bandwagon fans.

where were this fans when smush parker was the PG and kwame brown was the center?

yes, those were the good ol' days

Affalatus:
@Adigun101: You can ask biina about the Murder.

and why is that?

back2back:
This is a serious allegations.

Same Marwa became Governor of Lagos State and now Nigerian Ambassador to South Africa.

I expect FG to re-call him to answer these allegations.

I expect the National Assembly to pass a motion for him to answer these allegations.

But I know, this is a fantasy.

Welcome to HELL called Nigeria

Unsubstantiated allegations are no better than gossips and slandering. The National Assembly has no cause to to ask him to answer any allegations.
If Ogunade has genuine evidence of marwa's complicity, he should come forward, and then the judiciary can be involved, but I do not support the allegation peddling that is rampant in Nigeria where we finger shadows and ghosts.
After all this years he has not made the tape or its transcripts public. So how does he justify his position as being pro justice.

@adigun101
The problem is not with sourcing from articles, but with you echoing the contents of such articles unprocessed, like if they were the gospel truth, and not providing the references that shows that the opinion was not originally yours. The fact that someone says something in an article does not make his opinion right, and if you have no analysis, or opinion, of your own to contribute, then it would be no different from us reading the article itself.

Because several articles are written in favor of a particular position, does not make the position is true or right. For if they all followed your example, we can end up with a situation where several articles are actual based on a handful (or a single one) of genuine opinion(s).

I do not like to swallow articles, hook line and sinker. I would rather try to extract the facts and then make my own judgments, and when I feel I don't have the capacity to make such judgments, I would defer to others, but would not echo the opinions of others as if they were mine. If you feel Soludo was the best CBN governor ever because others said so, you could have said that at the onset, and saved both of us a few posts.

I have my opinion on the issue which is based on the facts at my disposal and my interpretations of them. If I have new facts or am convinced otherwise of my reasoning, my opinion would change accordingly. 

Soludo was not fired, his tenure was simply not renewed. If the same argument you are putting  forward was applied to Joseph Sanusi, Soludo would not have gotten his opportunity. Soludo has done no better or worse than his predecessors (excluding one or two, who had no business being there). His tenure was over,  and someone else is taking a crack at it.

Nobody his perfect, and if you don't change those in office, the short comings of those in office would soon become the failings of the system.

Do not blame the crooks, when those who claim to have incriminating evidence never make it public.
For example, where is the tape? why didn't he make a copy of it? why has he not released the content of the tape?
Our political history is littered with allegations with little to no evidence.
There is no point in making allegations if they cannot be substantiated.

CR7 is overrated and over priced IMO.
Ribery would be a better buy for most clubs, particularly his playmaking is much better than CR7
Of course CR7 is definitely the more marketable (if not the most marketable) player.

Definitely Man City needs to get a world class coach plus the fact that they failed to get into europe didnt do them any favors. I was so sure they would sack hughes at the end of the season.

There are two major flops on that list: denilson and lentini. Papin also didnt live up to the billing at Milan

adigun101:
You have dismissed academic archievements, international consultancy experience, awards and acknowledgements by renowned international bodies, and commentaries by dedicated Nigerian columnists, but now you want my personal opinion. Well as much doubt , I play along.

I am not trusting your opinion, rather I just want to hear it. The question is Soludo's performance as CBN governor and not an evaluation of his career as a person, so I feel it is appropriate that the discussion focuses on relevant issues.

Global bodies all of whom have scored Nigeria low in almost every socio-political and economic aspect, now have their objectives under question. Award objectives are never constant but fall under an umbrella of expectations. Look at the Nobel peace prize as a wild example.

Again awards often have political under tones and are not always objective. An example is the annual ruckus on Chinua Achebe and the Nobel prize

Progress is a measure of the state of events between two points in time. (in this pre and post-Soludo era)
1.The average lending rate went down from 20.42 to 18.22 percent between 2004 and 2008.
2. The exchange rate of the Naira to the United States’ Dollar also came down from N132.75 to N116.85 between June 2004 and June 2008.
3. The Bureau De Change, BDC, rate within these periods decreased from N140 in June 2004 to N119 in June 2008.
4. Currently, the value of the Naira to the Dollar has depreciated by 24 percent at the official market as it exchanges at N145 to the Dollar. The parallel market rate is as   high as N180. With the advent of the Global recession .( All major currencies followed the same trend of devaluation against the dollar.)
5. The performance of Nigeria’s gross domestic product, GDP, achieved a steady growth between 2004 and 2008.
6. The latest estimate from the National Bureau of Statistics indicates that Nigeria’s GDP grew by 0.8 in 2008 compared to 6.2 percent in 2007. 
7. The rise in foreign reserve from $11.44 billion in June 2004 to $60.89 billion  in August 2008 attests to the positive impact of Soludo’s first five years on the economy.  8. The consolidation exercise also had a significant impact on the banking sector. It increased the total capitalisation of the banking sector from N315 billion in 2004 to N2.788 trillion in December 2008. Bank’s credit to borrowers grew from N1.133 trillion in 2004 to N7.8 trillion in 2008.
9. The number of bank branches also rose from 3,247 in 2004 to 5,247 in 2008. In the same way, the number of the foreign branches of Nigerian banks increased from seven in 2004 to 69 in 2008.

Don't forget keep your eyes on where things were before he started to when he left and not judging him by some hypothetical ideal which has never existed in Nigeria.

Again stop plagiarizing articles. All your points were culled from http://www.newswatchngr.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=841&Itemid=1 The least you can do is quote the source.

1. The lending rate is dependent on a lot of factors and responds to changes in MPR, MRR and liquidity ration requirements by the CBN. In of itself, lending rates is partial information but rather should be correlated with deposit rates and other indices. A low lending rate is often an indication of excess liquidity in the system, i.e. banks are having problem finding suitable investment. Am not sure which specific rates you quoted (or how the average was calculated) else we would have been able to look at the data from 2000 to 2009 and see how all tie together.

2 (3 &4). The exchange rate of the Naira to the United States’ Dollar came down from N132.75 to N116.85 between June 2004 and June 2008 and rose to N145 by May 2009 . You have now tried to ascribe the credit of the decrease to Soludo while blaming the increased rate on recession. That is erroneous. The trend in the value of the naira can easily be traced to the crude oil prices, when the prices were high we had increased forex income, and when they dropped, the shortage followed suit. The more alarming factor is the wide margin between the two markets which has further encouraged round tripping that Soludo failed to curb.

5&6. What has the growth of the GDP got to do with the CBN? is the CBN responsible for the manufacturing and telecoms sectors too? The CBN governor is not the minister for finance, nor is he the minister for labor, so unless you can point to a CBN policy that directly caused the increase, I dont see the relevance.

7. The growth in foreign reserve is primarily from increase in crude oil prices. I have always said that while one can argue on the pros and cons of keeping high foreign reserves, it commendable that he was able to implement his choice.

8&9. Please see below for capitalization

1. But he is the first CBN governor to carry out the sweeping exercise in Nigeria.
2. The consolidation exercise also had a significant impact on the banking sector. It increased the total capitalisation of the banking sector from N315 billion in 2004 to N2.788 trillion in December 2008. Bank’s credit to borrowers grew from N1.133 trillion in 2004 to N7.8 trillion in 2008.1.

Lets  get some basics ironed out first. Increased capitalization caused the mergers i.e. consolidation and not the other way round. You are mixing up the cause and the effect. The real question has always been about capitalization.

(Below is an excerpt of my response from another thread)

There is nothing wrong in a bank having a huge capital base, as in the least, it makes it more robust and allows it to dabble into bigger projects. The issue is the minimum capitalization requirement, which essentially states that banks that don't meet it are not fit for existence. So the question is what is wrong with a bank being capitalized with less than N25B in Nigeria? Noting that even the US still has commercial banks with as little as $300M in total consolidated assets. Forcing banks to raise capital without the economy providing the needed opportunity to invest said capital will only force bank into shady trading and lending

Soludo was not the first to increase bank capitalization, rather it is an ever recurring process: N50 million in 1992, N500 million in 1997, N1 billion in 2000, N2 billion in Dec. 2004. Soludo made it N25 billion in Dec 2005. The uproar from bank executives was because he made an autocratic move in July 2004, requiring a huge increase (from N2B to N25B) within 18 months with total disregard fro the existing time line set by the previous CBN governor.

Increased capitalization of banks has never been (and will never be) the solution to our problem. Increased capitalization is like pumping water into a leaking tank, a pure waste of needed resources. Resources that could have been better invested in the manufacturing sector and cutting out the middle man i.e. bank

The merging of the banks and increased deposits are just the side effects of the capitalization.

In the same way, the number of the foreign branches of Nigerian banks increased from seven in 2004 to 69 in 2008.(in 4 years as opposed to more than 20 years growth)
2. Keep your eyes on the rapid progress!

The increase in capitalization puts pressures on banks to expand, so it is expected  that there would be increased branches both locally and internationally, but the question is how does it affect the price of fish? I made reference to the existence of foreign branches prior to Soludo to simply show that it is not a measure of success of the CBN. The growth is evolutionary. Wells fargo, one of the largest banks in the US has only 3 international locations. Are they then not doing well enough?

Haba ! Why are you like this. You did even not notice the huge spike in foreign investor activity in the Nigerian stock market. You cannot peg it down to two banks in two banks out.

The article made reference to standard charted and HSBC, I simply made a rebuttal. Also you cannot aggrandize foreign investment outside the financial sector to the actions of the CBN, or was the CBN responsible for the foreign investement in the telecoms sector (which has had the bulk of foreign investment)?

The apex bank transformed the institution into a profitable venture in 2007 and saved the country the disgrace of depending on importation to meet its currency needs. For now, the minting company is not only satisfying the country’s currency requirements, it has also started handling sensitive security printing works for the government and the private sector. The company has the prospect of attracting business patronage and investments from some West African countries. For instance, Ghana is said to be very anxious to do business with the resuscitated company. Before the CBN stepped in to rescue the mint, the administration of former President Olusegun Obasanjo had made up its mind to hand it over to foreign investors to manage.

Again Keep your eyes on progress.!

Profitable? the CBN has invested over N14 billion naira into the enterprise, and yet, as at July last year, the CBN was still importing higher denomination bills. So I would like to see evidence of your claim that the currency requirements are being met ( as even the NSPM website sates otherwise). Currently the mint produces N5 to N50 and there are questions over the quality of the notes. So as far as I am concerned, for N14 billion investment, there is a lot to be desired. The funny side is that am yet to see public figures that shows that the cost from NSPM is cheaper than importation.
The CBN had no business acquiring the mint from the ministry of finance, but rather the NSPM should have been made independent. 

Since you cannot form your own opinions and/or express same in your own words, this will be my last response to you on the issue, as there is nothing to be achieved in such a discourse.

and real madrid makes the first big signing of the summer. Who is going to be next C. Ronaldo, Ribery, Eto, Ibrahimovic, Fabregas, vidic, drogba, pato, benzema?
Manchester city are yet to show us the money, while inter, man u, chlesea and barca are all making undercurrents.

Kaka completes Real move
Real Madrid have completed the signing of Brazilian midfielder Kaka from Milan.
The 27-year-old international has agreed a six-year contract to become the first player to join Real since Florentino Perez returned to the presidency this month.
Reports said the transfer fee was around 68 million euros.
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/08062009/58/la-liga-kaka-completes-real-move.html

Official Statement from Real Madrid
Ricardo Izecson dos Santos Leite, Kaka, now plays for Real Madrid following the deal reached with A.C. Milan. The Brazilian footballer satisfactorily passed a full medical checkup. Kaka has signed a contract linking him to Real Madrid for the next six seasons.

[img]http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment%3B+filename%3DKak%C3%A1.jpg&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1202885387451&ssbinary=true[/img]

adigun101:
The awards from IMF/World bank were questionable because a Nigerian is amongst the publishers. Now that I got an internationally acclaimed one with no known Nigerian among the publishers, you are dismissing them as irrellevant but to you sharia studies is relevant to the Job of a central bank governor.
Well why I still go on with you is that this is an open blog and we've got readers who crave for the true facts flat and square.

For my earlier listings read the following write-up published recently on one of the Nigerian dailies.
http://www.thisdayonline.com/nview.php?id=145031

Please I would rather you don't dismiss this as political, as soludo has already left office when this article was written, so of what use is it lauding him at this stage.
This article even sufficed some figures and dates to go with.
As they say. The good works of men live after then. I will supply you with so much references as they are all over the place both nationally and internationally.
Afterwards I implore you to come out with sanusi's glittering records including awards he might have recieved nationally. Or the effects he had (in results or growth etc) he might have had on the banks he worked for.
I challenged someone on this blog to put sanusi's resume side by side with soludos but that individual has since fizzled out.
You see quality is not a flash in the pan it is eternal. Awards, Academic and proffessional accolades may not independently confirm quality, but in combination, they indicate consistent quality.

May i add that the Bankers Magazines award was "Global Central Banker of the Year award" 2006.
Hopefully Sanusi would match that. Even though it's irrelevant.

So your opinion of Soludo's performance in office is purely based on the judgment of others? No offence meant, but your constant echoing of unsubstantiated rhetoric leaves a lot to be desired. It is not difficult to evaluate the performance of a CBN governor, as one simply needs to look at the indices associated with his areas of responsibility.

Awards are irrelevant because the objective of the awarding body is unknown, and the criteria used for evaluation are often unknown and inconsistent from year to year. That is why I asked you to pull up the names of the past winners and see if you can find an objective criterion for their selection or the process of nomination.

At no point did I ever make reference to Sanusi's Islamic scholarship as being relevant.

You said Soludo had been the best CBN governor we've ever had, and I was expecting you to substantiate that statement by giving details of his accomplishment in office as opposed to past CBN governors, rather you are quoting others and pointing to third party opinions.

The guys that wrote the THISDAY article obviously feel that soludo did an exceptional job, and they are entitled to their opinion, but you should not echo such opinions as your own if you are unable to defend it. The fact that they had no criticism of Soludo raises questions on the objectivity of the article.

I have gone over these points a couple of times already on this site but so as not to seem evasive, I would give a few comments on the 'achievements' raised in the THISDAY article.

1. Banking Consolidation: This is neither positive or negative in of itself as it only gave the banks more money to play with. The capitalization of a bank does not translate to profitability as is evident with failure of large banks in the US. FYI Soludo was not the first, and would not be the last CBN governor to increase bank capitalization. It is an evolutionary step and because Soludo caused so much ruckus with his implementation, does not make the effect any different from prior implementations.

2. Offshore Branches: Offshore branches have been in existence before soludo's tenure. UBA and first bank had overseas branches since the 1980s while FBN got their UK license in 2002.

3. Foreign Investments: Standard Chartered was in Nigeria before Soludo, and Citigroup actually withdrew because of the increased capitalization request. So the foreign investment is neither here no there.

4. Macroeconomic Stability: I am not sure what this is supposed to mean, as the economy has had its up and down proportionally with the rise and fall of the crude oil price.

5. Microfinance: Again another evolutionary procedure. Soludo did not introduce microfinance, rather he simply continued the evolution of it. We have had microfinance under various banners like  rural banking, peoples bank, and community banking. One can say the most significant development in microfinance in Nigeria was the move from a centralized system to a distributed system, with the introduction of community banks, which happened prior to Soludo

6. ATM/Credit Cards: Soludo did not introduce ATMs or electronic banking into Nigeria. The popularity is simple evolution of the society. As the internet became more popular, and computer literacy evolved, the penetration of electronic banking also increased.

7. Corporate Governance: With the saga of intercontinental, and the cries of foul on zenith's forex purchase, I wonder what the claims of improved corporate governance is based on. The poor supervision of banks by the CBN is one of the reasons I felt Soludo should be replaced. His tenure was a retrogression from the Sanusi days when there was a decent clamp down on round tripping.

8. Common Year-end: Another retrogressive move excused on the basis of improved book keeping. The year you end your account is irrelevant to the accuracy of your books.

9. Vision 2020: Reminds me of the 7 point agenda. It is not an achievement until is attained.

10. Resuscitation of the Mint: After pumping billions of Naira into NSPM, the CBN has nothing to show, as they are far from attaining the set out objectives, and are now hiding under the core problem that should have been addressed - lack of electrical power (surprising? ). In fact the quality of production at the mint has dropped drastically as most of the staff are now casual/temp workers.

Each of these issues can be discussed further, but only if you have something of your own to bring on board. If you have no opinion of your own, then this discussion is pointless.