Weah96:

Not whoever, but ANYONE. Let the impediment to the experiment be finances, not being ALIVE. I shouldn't have to kill myself to verify your deity. Besides, I don't believe that brain waves are real only because of the reputation of the sources. Their claims must also be consistent with reality, ie, products like pharmaceutical drugs and high tech gadgets that are based on those claims must work flawlessly. Otherwise, like the handful of Jewish authors who wrote your book, they should not be believed.

Stop lying! You believed it outrightly without questioning that was why you posted it for me

Did you guys know that the first civilization possessed advanced knowledge in comparison to what we think we have today? One man could build a city in that old world!

Genesis 4:17 tells us, "And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch."

CAIN BUILT A CITY!

That was not a typo, he had the prowess and the ability to do it and he did!

See these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua1kqAPeIVU
and part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z1OufLYhMw

There is a lot of information that you don't have access to.

Weah96:
A choice between submission and death is not really a choice.

Really? Who said? You or the individual?

Ever heard of WILLFUL submission before? Let me help you, it is NOT forced submission as is popularized by Muslims in Jihad; In fact, submission may not be a good way of describing the act of willful surrender, it is more of an acknowledgement of supremacy. And the beauty that defies logic in the act is that the Supreme Being, God Almighty, takes that person not as a servant but as a friend.

Perhaps, in a most simplistic way, it is like a wealthy huge muscular man befriending a poor little boy. The man calls the little boy his friend and so does the boy, but that does not mean that the boy would not know his limitations and show respect to his friend.

Weah96: How long do you think you can survive in heaven, before turning on your evil master for roasting members of your own family? 100 years? 2 million years? Or one trillion years?

You seem to have a completely lopsided of the destination of Christians. The old Heaven and Earth will be done away with and a New Kingdom of God will emerge, so there will be a new Heaven and Earth again, Paradise.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, and those who make use of evil powers, those who make themselves unclean, and the takers of life, and those who give worship to images, and everyone whose delight is in what is false." (Revelation 22:14-15)

Weah96: Remember all you're doing is bowing and kneeling, there's no sex, no secular music, no TV, just worship.

Again, you've missed it by an extremely long shot!
We would just be starting to really exercise the brain God has given us to explore the Universe, why do you think God created the expanse of the universe? It's for exploration! Man would be better equipped to explore God's expanse! It's going to be exciting! In 2million years? We would still be having fun!

Do me a favour, read Revelation 21 to catch a glimpse!

Weah96:

Wrong. If I don't know, and you claim to know, then your knowledge must undergo scrutiny before it can be accepted by me. But you DO have the RIGHT to know. Let's not create strawmen please. Example, you claim to know what happens when people die. I don't. Meanwhile, I clearly see that you've never been dead before. Is it wrong for me to be extremely suspicious of your knowledge?

Even if you say I don't have the right to know, you are helpless against what I do know. I am one of those who question belief systems and authoritarian rulership.

Meanwhile, I clearly see that you've never been dead before.

Abraham answered that rich man who was in Hell, that even if someone were to go from the land of the dead to warn people of the world, they would still scorn and it wouldn't make any difference. Those who claimed to have died (certified by doctors as clinically dead) and come back alive to tell stories of life after death abound, but what do you do with them? Scorn them! Don't you?

Is it wrong for me to be extremely suspicious of your knowledge?

Of course not. I totally agree with you on that, except that, if you are sincere with yourself, my knowledge to you is a non-starter, you were never going to be interested simply because of the ego to try and prove me wrong.

Weah96:
I've never discussed brainwaves with you. But you're right, it is a man made conception, just like that bible you're running around with. The difference is, brainwaves are subject to experiments, even if the research team consists of atheists, Muslims, and Christians. The bible is not. Only Christians consider it to be the word of a deity.

Man-made conception? Yet, most of the things it defies the natural process of human thinking.

Previously, I cited the case of prediction of the state of Israel being born in ONE day, you rambled around it and never accepted that it was a fact, even though the evidence is there for everyone to verify.

Brainwaves are subject to experiments

Meaning? You mean after whoever has claimed to carry out a supposed experiment in a logical pattern and if it is confirmed by another person following the same logical pattern, then it must be the truth? Can you see how narrow you have allowed your brain to be confided in a box?

Only Christians consider it to be the word of a deity.

Really?

You need to go and watch a little Alex Jones.

Some of you seem to be living in the US, so accessing online videos should not be a problem for you, right? See these:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVT0yFDa9EI

and this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzNPOXy94JI

After you've watched these videos, tell me how you plan to counter or overcome these things.

Weah96:
I'm more impressed by the fact that I'm able to create human beings by moving my hips. That's enough for me. But to answer your question, have you ever heard of the principle of parsimony? It is unreasonable to begin to dissect a mystery by first embracing the most outlandish theory. Except yours isn't a theory. You consider it a fact, and I must accept the fact on face value, ignoring the credibility of the people who stated it.

While you're quick to throw scorn on my "theory", you have failed to present yours and you've not even attempt to define your god for us either. And you want me to believe that you're not deluded?

It's like saying if I don't know something you have no right to know it either. You're a victim of delusion.

Kay17:

But you agree that all what the Bible says is hearsay?

Hey buddy, I was trying to follow your presentations as being intelligent, why not keep it that way?
I asked you to present to me a more credible source or theory of your existence and that of the world around you, you are trying to dodge it.

Weah96:
My position is that your deity, the omiscient designer we've been discussing, is imaginary. So these are questions for you to answer which shouldn't be too difficult, because this omniscient designer is in regular, abi, constant contact with you. For the sake of assumption, an omniscient designer could never overcome the problem of universal agency. In other words, everything would be his fault by design. Even all humans were created identical by such an entity, it could still interfere through our interactions with the environment, which itself would have undoubtedly been designed with the 'robot humans' in mind. That is why I don't believe it. The Jewish authors who came up with this nonsense did not think it through. The Greeks were better. It is possible to conceal s)hit from Zeus.

You're a victim of your own intellect. You claim that you believe there is a God, but you don't know who this God is, yet you can't define Him in any context. So, you simply believe in an Unknown God. Sadly for you, if this Unknown God appears to you, because you don't even have a clue as to who He is, you can't still accept Him.

Oh boy - you're staring into a black hole!

It's the god you don't know that is imaginary. My God is more real to me than you or even my own skin for that matter.

I asked you about brainwaves and thoughts, you are so happy to show me a graphic picture you grabbed online, and you even presented it to me as if you an authority on brainwaves, but in the truest sense of it you have NEVER witnessed a brainwave yourself. If you can believe a man-made theory like that so easily and without any argument, why do you fight the notion of God being presented by the Bible?

You're a victim!

@ Kay17 or whoever thinks like and wants to help him....

Does it not impress you that you just suddenly appeared in a world that suddenly appeared?

Tell me or show me a better account than the one recorded in the Bible. Please, be aware that you are dealing with someone who knows a few things about Geological sciences such as geophysics and paleontology.

I am waiting to hear how you came into existence and also that of the world around you, wait.... you can start with the BIG BANG theory!

Kay17:

It leaves one wondering how you got to know God created the universe

It even makes me wonder much more that you even fathom God didn't!

There is a man in the Bible named Jabez, which means "sorrow" as his mother named him. When the man realized the effect his name was having on his life, he cried out to God to change the course of his life, God heard and indeed transformed his life into a pleasant one.

It was his mother who sentenced his life into a depressed state. Everywhere he went, people would call out to him, "Mr Sorrow"..... The guy could have said, "My life is full of sorrow, what's the point of trying to make something out of nothing," and just give up. But he didn't.

Would you blame God who put him in that family for the course of direction his parent sent him? Of course not. The guy could see his own estate and he cried out for God's help (using his freewill) and God answered.

Weah96:

Freewill was an illusion to the characters in this story. If EVERYTHING was designed by the same omniscient creator, then it's inconceivable that their pattern of thought wasn't designed specifically to fulfill their destiny. You also have a narrow definition of what interference is. It doesn't have to occur AFTER the product has already been created. It can occur during the process of design. Assigning the genes for blue eyes to a human is interference, if the designer is omniscient. The eyes are expected to play a particular role in realizing the fate of the individual, because they would come into contact with other products designed from the same lab.

So God should have created robots then - no variation, the same bland look-alikes. Then He should not have created colour into nature, maybe black and white would have sufficed.

Kay17:

But you did not witness God's creation of the Universe and creation of man, rather the Bible told you so and you strongly believe the Bible, right?

I already answered you, make your point.

The unfortunate this is that most of you still see the Bible as a tool of cybernetics, a means of controlling the masses or the religious mind. Whereas the Bible has a lot to offer the human mind that transcends control by the few elite. It actually empowers the human mind. Sadly, many never even give it a chance, they just make an irresponsible judgement. And a good number of those who do read it with their intellectual minds and hence miss out a lot of its beauty.

Kay17: @braveguy

You don't understand me.

I will try another angle. Have you seen God ever creating Universes or a human being?

That would make me a unique being if I were to literally witness that process. However, God only created one human being from whom we have - Adam & Eve.

On the other hand, I can say, I am a witness to MYSELF being created, not physically, but soulically, if you can understand that.

In the same light, we have Jesus declaring, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

THE WHOLE WORLD? YES!

But does this statement mean God was not aware that the WHOLE WORLD would not accept Jesus? Yes, He knew, but He still made the provision. It is the WHOSOEVER that believes to accept His offer of escape that would be saved. Did He not know that some would reject the offer? Yes, He knew, but they would not be able to blame him for their eternal fate. He would not force any to accept or reject His offer. You make your choice. Does He know the choice you would make? Of course.

As I previously quoted what he told Moses to tell the people of Israel, "Death and life I present before you," he went a step further with an advice (like I have been on this thread), "choose life that you may live or why would you want to perish?"

Weah96:
I see that you corrected yourself on the issue of the snow. Now you seem to be referring to the level of precipitation, not the thickness of "snowflakes" or drops of rain. You're on your own btw, I'm not going to get into that sort of speculation.

I corrected nothing, it was you who didn't think (research what you don't know) before you talked. What I did was try to point you in the right direction. I didn't even try to explain further the matters of the treasury of the snow. If you can access a STRONG's concordance, you will understand. Go and do your homework.

Weah96: I don't understand the usefulness of bringing up Michelangelo in a discussion about an omniscient designer and free will. The deity described in the bible would KNOW the fate of his products, unless there is some undisclosed limitations to his omniscience. Human designers do not. They can only speculate. As a third grader, I remember designing a paper plane. I knew then how the finished product should have looked before I even started. As I type this, I don't know what happened to my plane. This scenario couldn't be true if I was an omniscient designer. I would've foreseen the fate of the plane before I even commenced work on the project. Maybe, our ideas about what omniscience is differ, and they shouldn't.

You are the one introducing the subject of "fate", which I am happy to go along with, because originally all I was explaining was the fact that (as in your analogy) of your finished product. However, I just posted a reply on the matter omniscience and fate. And if you go back to one of my previous comments, I simplified this point without too much emphasis.

Kay17:

No, what I raised is not the same with what Weah96 raised. And your reply does not clarify it.

We don't have to lay out all the simple to complex activities Michelangelo got involved in as he worked on his painting to define his work, do we? Neither should we have to attempt at defining all the simplicity and complexities of the life of an individual before we can explain that God KNEW all these factors - that I explained when I stated previously the words of Jesus Christ that even the very strands of hair on your head are numbered by God. That should explain that the omniscience of God covers both the simple and complexities, which inadvertently envelopes the fate of the individual.

When I say the Bible already explained some of these points, some people want to shout, "but you can't live within the confines of the Bible". Why not? Why re-invent the wheel?

In the Bible, we have this same issue clarified where God said, "I hate Esau, but I love Jacob," even before they were born. And the lives the men lived happened to actually conform to what was said about them. That is one of omniscience. But does that mean their freewill was violated? Of course not. They lived without interference and made their choices. The foreknowledge of God was simply expressed.

Kay17: @braveguy

Glad to interject at this point.

You have not made a logical connection between Michelangelo with the Sistine Chapel and God with the universe. The necessary deductive connection has not been made. Except you assert that "ALL intricate complexities are created by intelligent Creators". Then we can see link between Michelangelo and God.

Well, I just replied Weah96, I guess that should clarify my point. I guess he (weah96) was trying to get me to explain the fact of fate of the product as against my first reference of just the product itself.

Weah96:
I was caught in the middle of that Atlanta snowstorm that made national news only a few months ago. I've lived in Providence, RI. So yes, I've seen snow. There's no such thing as a 30 inch thick snowflake. Snowflakes come in different sizes of length and width. "A 30 inch thick bag of rice" is a meaningless phrase, unless the size of the bag is mentioned.

It appears that you are refusing to answer the question, choosing instead to use human designers as a model for understanding omniscient design. Human designers know the finished product, they do not know its fate. Only an omniscient designer would know such a thing. Michelangelo didn't know the future of the entire Sistine Chapel or Italy, he only knew what his product should look like upon completion.

OK. Here are examples on the issue of the snow:
http://www.ask.com/question/how-much-snow-equals-one-inch-of-rain

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071116050110AAIK7CG

Also, regarding the Michelangelo work, I wasn't referring to the fate of the end-product, all I mentioned was the completed work itself not the future of the work.

With respect to the Omniscient One, all I talked about was the completion of His work in creating a man. There are some things about God that will ALWAYS be beyond what our tiny crania can understand. One of it is the fact mentioned by Moses in Psalm 90:4, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." That is, 1000 years is as a single day in God's sight.

Keeping that in mind, God had warned Adam that he would die on the day his sins, which he did and he died. Adam lived 930 years - in a way that was not up to "one" day. Since the fall, the oldest man who ever lived, lived to be 969 - none lived to be 1000 years. That is omniscience.

Weah96:
FYI, your comment about the snow is one of the lamest things I've read this year. A 30 inch layer of snow makes a 1 inch drop of rain? What are the other dimensions of this 30 inch layer? SMH.

If I missed it all along, you just showed how scientific or intelligent you are! Have you ever seen or handled snow before?
You're so thick and dumb! You don't know and when you are informed, you don't try to check your facts before you reply. On the issue of the snow, I would not bother to answer you until you are able to carry out a simple research ..... Go and Google it.

Weah96: There is nothing in that scripture you posted which suggests that your deity knows anything about snowflakes or snow. Have you ever seen treasures inside a snowflake before? Or is it another of those cryptic messages that only a "holy spirit filled" person like yourself can discern?

I seem to forget that you quite thick up there so you can't even understand what you read. Go and read what I wrote again!

Weah96:
First of all, Michelangelo was not omniscient, so I don't understand why his process of creativity is even remotely related to the creation of the universe by a deity. I asked you a very simple question. Was your deity always omniscient or were those abilities obtained after Goetze was designed?

I guess I have to repeat myself again, perhaps you can't read something and understand the first time. Here:
When an artist such as Michelangelo was setting out to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, it wasn't adhoc, he had an end-product in mind and that was what he accomplished.

So, why would you think less of God, who was making His grandest work yet, Man, that He didn't have an end-product in mind?
He always KNEW the end-product before He started - so, what does that tell you?

Weah96:
I'm glad that you asked. The answer depends on the abilities that the designer in question possessed during the process of creating Goetze. Was this designer always omniscient? Or was the gift of omniscience obtained after Goetze had already been created? Keep in mind the entirety of the claim that the bible makes.

The truth is that an acorn that will develop into an oak already has ALL the potentials locked up within it. An embryo that will develop into an Army General already has ALL the potential locked up within him.

When an artist such as Michelangelo was setting out to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, it wasn't adhoc, he had an end-product in mind and that was what he accomplished.

So, why would you think less of God, who was making His grandest work yet, Man, that He didn't have an end-product in mind?

Weah96: The bible states that God the omniscient designer created what's known as the universe. Goetze is but one of his creations.

You use Google all the time, are you aware that Google get over 11 BILLION searches per month? That is with approximately 300million people per day (I know this because I work in the industry). Now you may look at those numbers as just NUMBERS and that is all. But, do you know that Google has a way of keeping track with EACH person of those 300million? If you know anything about analytics (jokes apart and I am not belittling you), when you take just ONE of those 300million, there is a LOT of information that can be gathered about him or her. Information such as where exactly he's located, what he spends his time watching online, how long he's online for, his favorite website, down to his favorite page.... etc. You don't want google to define for you what they know about your life and online activities - it will shock you!

The omniscience of God has far MUCH MORE capabilities and abilities (omnipotence). That was why Jesus Christ informed us that God knows even the number of strands of hair on our heads. So, Gotze being one of his many creations occupies a unique place in His heart and the minutest details of his life are not just known but taken care of even beyond Gotze can ever fathom.

When you read the Bible, you will discover some incredible descriptions that are beyond ordinary human minds. For example, in the Book of Job, God asked Job if he has ever entered into the treasures of the snow or that of the hail? If you dig a bit deeper about the snow, you will discover it indeed has a treasury. Snow always appear as a fragile tiny six-sided crystal. Yet no two crystals are alike! So fine is the snow that it takes a 30-inch layer of dry snow to equal the water in a 1-inch rainfall.

God says, that fragile thing that melts when it touches your palm, has treasures locked up inside it! As fragile as that thing is, God says it is a storehouse of weaponry! God says, He has reserved it for the time of trouble and that day of battle (Job 38:22-23).

Did you know that Napoleon Bonaparte was not defeated by the Russians when he invaded their land? The Russians could not confront the mighty Napoleon with the French Army. It was these treasures of the snow that Russia employed!

God is intricate and supreme. Before science found many things out, they were declared in the Bible. No human intelligence could have fathom these things thousands of years ago.

Weah96:
So where was Gotze's own free will in all of this? You're saying that God protected his legs throughout infancy and childhood, so that he could end up scoring the winning goal in the WC final. That is determinism, not free will.

Like I said earlier, someone needs to put on their thinking cap.

So, God made him chest the ball and hit it like he did? And you say his actions are not borne of freewill? Did he choose his parents or country? Or did God make him wake up to run and practice every day?

Why can't you differentiate the roles of the Designer from that of the freewill?

Ever heard of the parable of the Talents? The Master gave each a talent or more, was it not their choice to activate its usage? Perhaps, you should look at it this way; God, at Creation, created a viable fruit of apple and later you, as a farmer, gets the seed from the fruit. As a farmer, every seed of apple in your hand has been loaded with all the potentials to become a great tree that will produce hundreds or thousands of apples someday. But would it be God's job to make you plant the seed into a good soil and tend it? When the tree bears ripe fruits, would it be His job to make you harvest it?

The apple seed created (by Designer)
The apple seed you planted would not yield pineapple fruit but apple fruit (predestination)
The apple seed, IF PLANTED, would bear apple tree (freewill by farmer)
The apple seed and apple tree would yield so much (known total) fruit in its lifetime (omniscience/foreknowledge)

I guess that is a simple way to understand the roles of each.

Weah96:

You do get my point, which is why you decided to tap out using this. What is the meaning of this?

No, but you mentioned Bill Gates in your statement. So, instead of trying to use more vitamins in tasking my brain to understand your gibberish, I decided to refer you to that maybe it will address your point. Looks like it did

Weah96:
You are creating a false argument. I'm not arguing against free will because 'there is foreknowledge.' I clearly stated that in probably the first two sentences. I'm arguing that it cannot exist, if the entity with omniscience (which includes knowledge of past events as well) is also the designer of the entire universe. It is possible for free will in humans to exist along with an omniscient being, but in order for that to be true, the omniscient being must not be the designer.
Following your Gotze analogy, are you saying that it is possible for God to have engineered his steps up until the moment he was called in to play, and then suddenly endow him with the ability to decide whether to play or not?

You are the one re-engineering my words.

Read what I expressed about Gotze again.... "He created someone like Mario Gotze gave him his talents, protected him from childhood.... " where is suddenly in that on the day of world cup final?

You need glasses?

Weah96: How can a creature that was designed by an omniscient entity CHOOSE to do anything? Was the designer omniscient before, during, and after the process of creation? Or was there a blind spot at some moment? Let's assume that the developers at Microsoft became omniscient. Let's also assume that in addition to PCs, those suddenly omniscient developers decided to create human clones. Would it be possible for one of their clones to defecate on a new PC in the middle of Times Square without them not only predicting the event, but accounting for it in their design of that particular clone?

I don't get your point.

But let me refer you to an event about Bill Gates a couple of years back: http://imranontech.com/2007/02/20/did-bill-gates-say-the-640k-line/

"640K ought to be enough for anybody.” -Bill Gates (1981) One of the most quoted lines of the computer era. Certainly the most quoted line attributed to the Microsoft founder. However it is only “attributed” as in 1996 Bill decided to publically deny it in an interview.

INTERVIEWER I read in a newspaper that in 1981 you said, “640K of memory should be enough for anybody.” What did you mean when you said this?

BILL GATES: I’ve said some stupid things and some wrong things, but not that. No one involved in computers would ever say that a certain amount of memory is enough for all time.
(…)
We at Microsoft disagreed. We knew that even 16-bit computers, which had 640K of available address space, would be adequate for only four or five years.

Also check this page: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.folklore.computers/mpjS-h4jpD8/9DW_VQVLzpkJ

Weah96:
You're right, foreknowledge doesn't imply input. Unless of course, the agent claiming to be omniscient is also claiming to be the designer of EVERYTHING. In that scenario, free will cannot exist. An omniscient designer of the universe would have not only predicted the triumph of Germany, but would have designed every participant with Brazil 2014 in mind. I could extrapolate the implications even further to the incidences of plagues and other horrible things, but you get the point. Yahweh/Jesus is incompatible with the concept of free will. You admit that the story has already been written. Well if the novel has already been written, then of what use is the bible? Is it not just an object in an already completed novel?

The Bible is the novel, if you will understand it. But, you cannot understand it in a rebellious attitude. The rebellious attitude cheats you and automatically closes your mind to its treasures.

As in the case of the world cup again. Take for example, The Designer, He created someone like Mario Gotze gave him his talents, protected him from childhood, from those moments of falling down a staircase and not breaking his legs or a friend poking his eyes and blinding him, put him in a family where his talents can be appreciated and nurtured (in the pains and aches of discipline) till that day when he represented his country. The Designer possibly made him wait on the bench for his glorious time - perhaps he was angry at the manager for not starting him. Tell me, what would all those previous pains and aches amount to after he won the game for his teammates and country?

Yet, when he got on that field that day, even if he has been told that he would win the world cup for his country, he still has to perform, otherwise he could have got on the pitch and just sat down.

My point, you can't argue against freewill because there is foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is mere knowledge, irrespective of the probabilities. When God intervenes then we call such a miracle, because He uses His omnipotence and that defies logic and the laws of nature to which we are accustomed.

I'm trying my best to be as reasonable with you as possible, I must say that you're stretching it, either because of the way you think or express yourself. It's not that I am offended, no, rather that I want to make some sense out what doesn't seem to be. So, let's take your points on one by one. Don't think because some unthinking guys out there are "liking" what you put out means you are right, it will just mislead you.

finofaya: The bible says we are made in the image and likeness of God. Is God capable of sin? If not, is he onmipotent?

God is not capable of sin, He cannot be like us, rather the opposite; we are the ones who can become like Him, in nature/character.
Yes, He is omnipotent. His omnipotence does not make Him evil that because He's all-powerful He can commit sin and get away with it, rather the opposite. His omnipotence makes Him have a higher nature than the destruction of sin. Personally, this is what I tap into to live above temptations, too. So, as a human being, I enjoy a little dimension of His omnipotence.

finofaya: Your God, Jehovah, is not necessary for morality.

That is your opinion. But all evidence tells me that He is absolutely and perfectly moral. Has it not occurred to you that the legal laws of most nations of the world are Bible-based? Then I ask you who gave the laws of the Bible?

finofaya: Are you, Brave Guy, inherently evil? Do you look at your fellow man and wish that he were not? Is it God that is keeping you in check? It is unfortunate to wait for God to tell you to be nice to people. There are close to a billion people who do not believe in God. With such a significant number, if the proposition 'do what thou wilt' were true, don't you think you would be seeing its effects?

Since the Fall, every Man is inherently evil. Unrestrained and without the element of conscience, there won't be any difference between humans and animals. The restraint, which is inherent from the consciousness of God (called conscience) is what makes us different from animals. In fact, I just read a news report of a man called Dale Bolinger, a 57-year-old British man who tried to persuade a German girl of 14 to have sex with her and also chop her up and have her for dinner. Such is the depravity of an unrestrained mind. You will agree with me that community laws either put a restraint on Man or reminds Man of his moral duties to his neigbour. Without this, I doubt if any human being would be alive in the next five years!

finofaya: There are people who engage in religious practices while not believing in God. Examples are certain sects of Hinduism and Buddhism, some adherents of Judaism, and even some Christians. A belief in God is not necessary for this.

Of course, there are people who naturally moral. Some are even better moral values than some so-called believers. But the best of moral man is still not good enough. Why? You may say 99.99% is good enough, but God see it differently and it's not good enough. How is that? If I make you an expensive and sumptuous dish and then and then garnish it with dog poopoo, would you be able to enjoy the meal? That is the way the best of us can look before God. But we needn't stay that way because He has a provision for us.

finofaya: You just trust your bible, without wanting to know why.

That is your assumption because you don't know me. You don't know how far I have come before trusting the Bible that much. Take it like this, if you become a Christian today through a conviction from the Bible, how would you treat that Bible, as some worthless piece or precious treasure?

finofaya: The bible says that God is all merciful and all benevolent. Why then is he punishing all of the humans he created for the 'sins' of two persons? Why did he not forgive those two if his mercy is limitless?

He is NOT punishing all humanity for the sins of two people. You're making your judgements from a distance because you don't know Him. It's like someone you have never met before making judgements on you - the food you love, the clothes you wear, your favorite colour, etc. Do you think he will make an informed judgement?

finofaya: Even if his mercy has a limit, why did he not wait to be offended 70 x 7 times before reacting, as he has exhorted us to do? According to the bible, human intelligence is laughably frail and the universe is prodigiously complex. Why does God take it so personally when frail human intelligence fails to recognise him for what he is, and rejects him? People have rejected their earthly fathers and lived to tell the tale.

The offense of Adam and Eve was nothing like that. When Adam and Eve sinned, they fell from grace, that has NOTHING to do with God. They were stained (as in the example I gave above of the dog's poopoo) and that stain had to be removed hence the banishment. But if you that story of the fall properly, God immediately cleansed Man. Even though Man had DELIBERATELY rejected God, he has to deliberately accept God (as in case Jesus Christ presented to us) before he can return to his original estate and glory. It has to be by CHOICE.

The mercies of God is still very much displayed towards us because He could have, with the breath of His nostrils, blown our universes to anilhation, but He didn't.

finofaya: Why does an all merciful heavenly father condemn his child to an eternity of excruciating torture for the same offence? How did an all merciful, all good God concieve of torture? You call it punishment, and punishment might be justified on the grounds that it can bring about reformation. But is it punishment when reformation is not the goal? Once you make up your mind not to ever forgive, is that not malice?

Read your statement again and consider if it's not contradicting the one you made earlier on the morality of man. So, you believe Man is capable of morality without any consequence for his criminality? Look around you, would that not be a joke? Be sincere with yourself. Even at the world cup, you could see Arjen Robben diving almost at every touch, even though he's aware that billions of people are watching him. Man will attempt to evil and try his best to get away with it, if he's not going to be caught!

finofaya: Once you don't agree that the bible is not central to a discussion about God's existence, there isn't much I can say to you. Feel free to label me depraved, and imagine me in Hell. At least God will be there with me, for he is omnipresent.

For me, the Bible is central to discussions about the existence of God. I am not really a philosopher nor am I university professor - I am not even a university graduate theologian, but I have a general background of science, art, engineering and technology. God has taught me what I know from the Bible, so it is central.

As to God being with you in Hell, if you wish, if that is your desire or choice, I can't stop you. But as I have shown and quoted earlier from the Bible, that was NEVER His original intention for you, rather you CHOSE it.

finofaya: Whenever you are ready, explain to yourself why your answer to the question 'why is the bible sufficient proof?' Is 'everyone to his own choice of weapon, mine is the bible'. Wonder why your bible raises so may questions, like the ones above, or in the religion section of this forum, when it is a book that claims to have all the answers.

You reminded me of when I was in the secondary school and was (mis)informed that it is dangerous to read the Book of Job, that if you do, terrible things will happen to you like it did to Job. It wasn't until much after I got born again that I summoned the courage to overcome that fear, which was created in me, based on falsehood. What am I saying? The lack of understanding the Bible is why so many either find it boring or difficult to follow. This is because we have been preconditioned to take Bible from the intellectual perspective. That, my friend, is not just labourious, but unprofitable!

To enjoy the Bible, you must understand that there are FOUR dimensions to it - the length, breadth, height and depth. Intellectually, we have been limited to the first two. When you begin to gain access to the height, your awareness changes and when you are able to gain access to the depth, then you will see how precious that Bible is truly.

rationalmind:

Lol, you're the one to talk about sensibilities?

This explains a whole lot. It appears he has shielded your brain.

I see no reason to debunk your "biblical prohecies" same way I see no reason to debunk nostradamus prophecies or perhaps Mohammed's prophecies when I know they all are hoaxes.

You want me to take you serious, start by showing me a prophecy in the bible concerning Nigeria, the bokoharam menace and our abducted girls.

Else, when you see an Israeli, tell him about the "prophecy" in the bible concerning Israel. I hope he's patient enough to indulge your foolishness.

Tell him to open a nairaland account if he has any claims. If he asks you why? Explain to him you've been doing a very pathetic job making the claims for him.

I hope he presents his case better.

You have NOTHING concrete to present.
I guess you want to tell me there is no genuine prophet in the whole of Nigeria. If you are serious, go and search them out. I once heard of a CAC elderly man in Ibadan, go and visit him and he will tell you your whole life!

If you have never heard a man called Obadare before, go and research him or Joseph Babalola who started CAC.

The fact that there are many prosperity preachers in Naija does not mean there are not genuine ones. If you are serious, go and search them out and you will hear things that will make your ears tingle, at least, you're supposed to be "RATIONAL" mind .... I am yet to see anything rational about your comments.

The only person that has made sense so far as I can see on this thread is finofaya, maybe you should go and learn from him.

ooman:

Frankestein is a myth, just like your god. but you talk of Frankestein as if he existed, just as you talk about your god.

can someone just use their brain for a moment?

When I say Frankestein, I mean ALL the botched experiments with human cells, such as Dolly the sheep.