alchemist13:
Yesterday I swear I saw a pig breathe fire.

Show us your proof, these people showed some proof of what they saw.

Kay17: @braveguy

Did you realise you didn't answer a single question?

The main Q was upon what authority are you able to assert that the Bible was inspired. What's the distinguishing factor?

I answered your question, anyone reading through would assert that.

Kay17: Are you saying the Spiritual is a radio wave?

It's more than a radio wave. Matter is the lowest form of existence. It's a bit similar to the "elusive" particle that scientist are desperately trying to identify - no, capture! The God Particle.

As you and I know, matter is made up of atoms and an atom is made up of particles, protons, electrons, neutrons, etc. That is as far as we have been able to identify, isn't it? But it has also been discovered recently that there are more particles that are smaller than the known ones. The farther we get into the world of those particles the more we realize that there is a world beyond our visible realm.

So, it is more than just radio waves. However, you and I we exist in a particular frequency of time, beyond that we cannot be seen and that is what some call death. Where the shell of a particular frequency is laid off and the resist of the frequencies continue their existence as an entity.

Weah96:

GOD. No one wants to call a little girl a liar especially if she's only drawing pictures of Jesus. Atheists don't have to always be good, moral people. They can turn out to be Stalin or young Akiane Kramarik's parents. To be honest, I would do the same if I could.

She is no more 8. I think she's now 20.

Were you aware that another 4-yr old, Colton Burpo, (a movie just came out recently titled, "Heaven Is Real", confirmed that the painting is the face the Jesus Christ he saw when he visited heaven?

Are you trying to say all these children are liars, revealing things that they were not informed of or told? As in the case of Colton Burpo who, at the age of 4, revealed to the mum that a "baby died your tummy", and describing the sister who he saw in heaven or his grandad?

Friends, these are more than made-up stories or imaginations of children.

Kay17:

It is like you abandoned the Creation Myth, so I suppose you coneded to it.

1. Upon what authority are you able to declare that the authors of the Bible whom you do not personally know, were inspired by a spiritual phenomenon God? Also if a subject is not within the comprehension of the supposed author, isn't that proof such author is the most unlikely author of such subject?

I do not believe in a Myth, I believe in REALITY.
No way, why should I abandon the reality of Creation? I have no reason to abandon the most plausible of all stories as the the origin of humanity. Otherwise, tell me a better one.

Kay17:
Are you willing to concede to people who have done beyond human comprehension, as men of God?

A Man of God is not just anyone with supernatural powers or insight. A man of God is someone who is associated with God and lives within the confines or definition that we call God.

The spiritual world is a vast world, you have both the wicked and good spiritual world. I guess you have heard of a man called Aleister Crowley before, he did things that were super-natural. You can't classify him as a man God. So, your definition is wrong.

A person can be inspired by God to write something, and usually it's not because he was an expert in that field

Kay17:
2. Define spiritual and how it is detected.

Are you trying to pin me into a laboratory to capture a spirit?

I will define it to you like this. You have a wireless phone (mobile phone), with it you connect the Internet and check your emails and all sorts and it works. But about the data transmission packet that was loading onto the satellite and from there into your mobile, do you see it before it enters into your mobile?

The spiritual world exists in a much higher frequency that is beyond our natural capability of using the five senses to identify it. It is like the data packet in the information superhighway.

How is it detected?
Just as your mobile phone has been designed to pick up the information data packet, likewise we have been designed by the Great Designer to pick up spiritual things, if we are not, the fault is not with the Designer/Engineer, but the receiving instrument, in this case, human being.

Just as you can go to the beach and scoop sand in your hand, God can likewise scoop the wind in the hollow of His hands.

You are yet to answer my question about the closed access to spirituality of the Akiane world, considering the fact that she lacked the possible access to the information she was sharing with her family and later, the world.

Weah96:

Check out this page on child prodigies. I'm surprised that Magnus Carlsen isn't on there though. He's my favorite. Anyway your own child 'prodigy' is somewhere in the middle of the article. With a question mark. Christopher Hitchens used to always say that it is easy to get away with s)hit if you claim the authority from God. Kings and nobility got away with it for millennia. Even our own African kings. Catholic priests use their authority to sodomize boys. People are willing to turn a blind eye every time the authority of Allah, Jesus, or another deity is declared.
http://riotgrrrl.hubpages.com/hub/whatisachildgenius

You are missing my point; it's not about the genius of the child, but what led to the genius of the child. As to the case of the question mark over her and her mother, how come since she has been profiled and been in public eyes from age 8, why has this not been detected? And what about the independent examination that was carried out on the painting of the carpenter?

My point was that she was painting incredible things that was beyond the imagination of a child and was doing it like an expert. So, it's more than ordinary talent here.

@Kay17

What do you say about the experience of that 8-year-old (of course she is in her twenties now), Akiane Kramarik?
- no church
- atheist family
- home-schooled
- no television
- no prior exposure to Christianity
etc.

Yet, she had visions of Jesus and painted the same.

Kay17:

3. Good list. However you earlier claimed that God wrote the Bible, now you saying there were 40 auuthors! That is apparently inconsistent. It is either God wrote it singly OR amongst the 40 authors. Now if 40 human authors wrote the Bible, how was any of them able to witness the beginning of the Universe?

Well, I think that is becoming more grammatical in expression; those writers were INSPIRED by the Spirit of God. Where you see the examples of these is when people are writing about things that is exceptionally beyond their human comprehension. As in my previous points, you have the case of Moses talking about the fact that human blood is what carries the ingredient of the human life - haemoglobin, Job talking about the treasures (wonders) of the snow or taxonomy as in Genesis 1.

The congruence, coherence, agreement, independence, interdependence of the 66 Books is incredible!

Attributing authorship to the writers is just a matter of academic exercise not the essence of it.

Another point from your question is,

how was any of them able to witness the beginning of the Universe?

The matter is, this is also spiritual, sometime people are transported in time (sort of time travel) through visions and dreams to observe event and activities. So, yes it is possible that some of these people "witnessed" Creation. Not physically but spiritually.

Kay17:


1. I sympathise with you deeply in respect to the mistreatment received.

2. I was talking about Creation Myths which are inventive plots developed by all cultures and civilizations across the world NOT grammatical structures nor modernisation on languages. What you addressed was over what I said.

3. Good list. However you earlier claimed that God wrote the Bible, now you saying there were 40 auuthors! That is apparently inconsistent. It is either God wrote it singly OR amongst the 40 authors. Now if 40 human authors wrote the Bible, how was any of them able to witness the beginning of the Universe?

Thanks for the empathy

Even if I am completely banned from here, I won't stop praying for you guys to come to the knowledge of the truth as I have come to love all of you guys, it feels strange, but I love it.

qstar: welcome Braveguy, i empathize with you on your bans.
Maybe you didn't post lewd links but the antispambot mistook the links as lewd. Sorry.

Try not to be posting links at all. If you must post, try and edit it into "sentence/word" format. Or better still, discuss the issue with Seun.

Well, the whole thing look funny to me, to say the least,

In any case, I have taken onboard your advice about links, however, when I post links it is usually for reference for further reading, especially for those who cannot use YouTube, so that they may find a corresponding article to read. Anyway, I will try to minimize the use of links and just advice people to do a Goople search online. It may take them a long time, but they would eventually find the links.

I would like ANY of my atheist friends to challenge this observation, a young girl called Akiane Kramarik, the genius painter. Read a partial copy of her story:

Children are so fresh from God it’s no wonder some of them are given visions and signs from heaven. Their innocent and trusting natures allow them to believe what we adults would never accept. This must be part of what Jesus meant when he said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3.

Akiane Kramarik is a young prodigy from Sandpoint, Idaho, who has been drawing and painting lifelike artwork since she was 4. Akiane (pronounced ah-KEE-ah-nah) says she first met God when she was 3. And now she's hoping to use her amazing gift to help feed needy children around the world.

When young Akiane's special gift was discovered, not much time passed before the humble 10-year-old was featured on Oprah, CNN, and other national media programs. Akiane began working in pastels when she was 5, and completed her first painting at 7. The self-portrait she painted sold for $10,000.

"It wasn't just art that was happening. Simultaneous with art was a spiritual awakening," says Akiane's mother, Forelli Kramarik. "It all began to happen when she started to share her dreams and visions."

Prior to that time, Forelli had been raised as an unbeliever, in an atheistic family from Lithuania.

"And my husband was a former Catholic and did not share in the family beliefs. We didn't pray together, there was no discussion about God, and we didn't go to church. Then all of a sudden, Akiane was starting to talk about God."

Forelli's young daughter was homeschooled, she had no babysitters, and the family watched no television."We were with the kids all the time, and so these words from Akiane about God didn't come from the outside - we knew that. But suddenly there were intense conversations about God's love, His place [in our lives], and she would describe everything in detail."

In the beginning, Akiane drew pictures of family members and pets, but her interests eventually shifted to the creation of faces. She started "scribbling" more and more faces. She tries to recreate visions that she says God gives her in her dreams.

"I wake up after I have had many dreams. I wake up and I pray, and then I see visions and I explain all those to my mom, and I say, 'This is what I want to paint.' And my mom says, 'I'll give you a canvass so you can paint it.'"From her dreams Akiane began to compose what she calls the "Jesus" paintings, which took her more than 75 hours to complete. She has so far painted two oils of Jesus. She calls the first one "The Prince of Peace," and the second is titled "Forgive Them, Father."

"I always think about Jesus and talk about Him," she says. "I was looking for a [Jesus] model for a long, long time, and when I couldn't find anyone, one day I suggested to my family to pray all day for this model so God would send the right one." The day that they prayed, a very tall carpenter - yes, a carpenter - came to their door looking for work. When he showed up, Akiane nearly fainted. "I told my mother that that was him. I want him to be my model," she recalls.

The carpenter agreed to it at first, but he called a week later to back out.

"He said that he wasn't worthy to represent his Master," Akiane says. "He's a Christian, and he's a humble person. But I prayed that God would change his mind and that he would call back." And the mysterious carpenter, who wished to remain anonymous, did call Akiane back, saying that God wanted him to pose for the painting, although he felt it was unusual.

Akiane took pictures, studied his face, made sketches, used her imagination and photo references, and the result was the "Prince of Peace."

Akiane's day is a little different from other children her age who are homeschooled. When she wakes each morning she has a drink of water, exercises, prays, and then she paints.

"And after I paint, I write poetry," Akiane adds. "And I write Russian, and then I write and read Lithuanian, after which I read the Bible."

When asked how she knows that it's God who is speaking to her, she replies, "Because I can hear His voice. His voice is quiet and beautiful." Although she was 3 at the time, she'll always remember God's first message to her. "He said, 'You have to do this, and I'll help you.' He said, 'Now you can help people.' I said, 'Yes, I will.' But I said it in different words in my mind. I speak through my mind to Him."

For those who cannot use YouTube because of their bandwidth, what about these articles:
http://www.examiner.com/article/akiane-kramarik-visits-to-heaven-and-visions-of-jesus

http://www.christianity.com/11622549/

Her Jesus' Painting has been compared with the mysterious Shroud of Turin.
http://shroudstory.com/2012/05/22/akianes-jesus-heaven-is-for-real-and-the-man-in-the-turin-shroud-revisited/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ealRd0XJUq0

Having read the story of this child prodigy, do you think this child made up the story?
How could she have made up the story in an encapsulated atheistic setting?
If she made up the story, how come the gift that backs up her story?

I will appreciate answers to these questions.

If this is not a sign that there is a God, what else would you need? The thing is that God may not come to you physically to inform you that He is God, he expects you to see Him in people around you, especially when you look into the mirror.

BrotherJohn: it will be nice to see Dapo777, bigurban, gstar also engage braveguy.

Thanks, BrotherJohn, it's good to see you at Nairaland, I hope you will contribute and we can hear from your perspective of things on the subject and proof of the existence of God.

While I'd be happy to engage anyone on the subject, I must say that my goal is not to prove that I am supremely better than anyone, which I believe you'd agree, but to share a little from the things I know and can easily relate with, as evidence of an Intelligent Creator.

Once again, thanks for your intervention.

qstar: Hey Braveguy! Stop posting lewd links.

I suspect your other moniker has been banned too. The antispambot is programmed to do such bans.

That is NOT true!

I have NEVER posted lewd things or links in my life, why should I start doing it now, especially in a debating forum?

@Kay17.... it seems the moderator for this thread or Seun Osewa or a super moderator has a personal hatred for me and is using (misusing) his powers to suspend/ban and delete my comments. I have posted the below comments TWICE and it has been deleted each time. Perhaps, the person thinks I'm clueless as to how the script behind this site works or how the Internet works. Well, I am also an Internet Marketing Consultant and Analytics experts, so I have a near perfect understanding of these things. If not, why was I prevented from making comments like everyone else? Gstar says it's conspiracy theory and was saying it's antispambot and giving excuses, it's a lie!

Kay17:
The purpose of a creation myth is to create a starting point by which human life is defined. The history and traditions are the foundations of every culture and civilisation, if there weren't any, a history would be invented.

So if I want to talk about the Chinese and their tradtions OR the Mayans and their traditions, their creation myths place them at the centre of attention. So also the Jews. If you manage to step out of their myths and use a panoramic view to see all the creation myths together, you would get a better picture.

You seem to ignore my explanation because you already have what you wanted to say pre-pared. English language today is not what it used to be just four hundred years ago.... "Thee" and "Thou" has been replaced by "you", "okay" is now being gradually replaced by "cool". The same goes with traditions and cultures, while some have strongly resisted change, but they have not really escaped the influences of modernization.

Kay17:

You don't seem to read much outside the Bible.

Tell me what is better out there.

Things Fall Apart?
Animal Farm?
The God Delusion?
Satanic Bible?
Tao Te Ching?
Occult Books?
Yoga Books?
John Rockefellar Bio?
The Richest Man in Babylon?
The Dresden code?
Wicca Books?
Babalawo books?
Quran?

Please educate me, which of these matches the excellence of The Holy Bible?
While I have not read all the books in the world, I have read quite a bit and while some are informative relevance, most are just informative junk! None matches the length, breadth, height and depth of the Bible. No other has some 40 authors from different continents, write with specificity, coherence, essence and unity as the Bible, which was written over a period of 1500 years. And you know what, all the 66 books have a CENTRAL theme about them - Jesus Christ. All are in agreement!

Present me ONE and we will put it through a few tests to see if it matches up!

Kay17:
The purpose of a creation myth is to create a starting point by which human life is defined. The history and traditions are the foundations of every culture and civilisation, if there weren't any, a history would be invented.

So if I want to talk about the Chinese and their tradtions OR the Mayans and their traditions, their creation myths place them at the centre of attention. So also the Jews. If you manage to step out of their myths and use a panoramic view to see all the creation myths together, you would get a better picture.

You seem to ignore my explanation because you already have what you wanted to say pre-pared. English language today is not what it used to be just four hundred years ago.... "Thee" and "Thou" has been replaced by "you", "okay" is now being gradually replaced by "cool". The same goes with traditions and cultures, while some have strongly resisted change, but they have not really escaped the influences of modernization.

Kay17:

You don't seem to read much outside the Bible.

Tell me what is better out there.

Things Fall Apart?
Animal Farm?
The God Delusion?
Satanic Bible?
Tao Te Ching?
Occult Books?
Yoga Books?
John Rockefellar Bio?
The Richest Man in Babylon?
The Dresden code?
Wicca Books?
Babalawo books?
Quran?

Please educate me, which of these matches the excellence of The Holy Bible?
While I have not read all the books in the world, I have read quite a bit and while some are informative relevance, most are just informative junk! None matches the length, breadth, height and depth of the Bible. No other has some 40 authors from different continents, write with specificity, coherence, essence and unity as the Bible, which was written over a period of 1500 years.

Present me ONE and we will put it through a few tests to see if it matches up!

jayriginal:

Took 11 years to pull off something that happens by natural causes?

Really?

Thanks for picking it up .... Kudos!

I just checked my facts again. It was absolutely correct. Sometimes, God can delay the answer to such prayers.

Peter the apostle said, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2Peter 3:9)

However, the fact still stands that I am not God and hence not infallible.

Thanks for picking up on those things.

TheBigUrban2:

Mature beings should talk to one another. But then, your God doesnt exist and he cant talk to anyone

Sometimes, people expect God to do some dramatic things, but He won't. You reminded me of the conversation between Abraham and the Rich Man in Hell. He had asked Abraham to send someone from Heaven to warn his relatives that Hell was real, but listen to the reply:

Luke 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luke 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luke 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Where Moses and the Prophets meant the Bible.

I am quite sure that I am not the first person who has spoken to you about God and may not even be the last. In essence, God has been using "Moses and the Prophets" to speak to you, but you've been scorning and cussing.

TheBigUrban2:

So, if I insult God, he will mercilessly torture me?
That's not a mature way to settle differences, is it?

Mature beings should talk to one another. But then, your God doesnt exist and he cant talk to anyone

My prayer is that He will forgive you, but you can't claim ignorance either. You know exactly what you are doing. You're not gracious that He made you, you're unappreciative that you have a mentality that you can control; instead of using your talents and abilities to bring joy to Him and His Creation, you're using it to insult Him. Your knowledge (and it's not as if you're the foremost expert in anything) has so much filled you wide pride and the best way to exhibit that is to post insults and try to prove something against Him. No, you're not ignorant, but arrogant, whatever consequence you face for your actions, you invited it.

As I mentioned to you, there is precedence in history and as in the words of George Santayana, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." or Edmund Burke, “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

Even if you are claiming ignorance of history, I have given you at least FIVE examples. My advice, repent before it's too late. Pride has NEVER helped anyone against God in history.

Kay17: @braveguy

Enjoyable honesty, it is appreciated. However you originally claimed God created the Universe, which you did not witness. It was quite an impossible claim. It was more like a joke. One can count over a hundred creation myths that revolve around cultures. Every culture has a creation myth including the Jews whose myth is contained in the Bible.

Hey Kay17.

A couple of years ago, I was was watching a BBC documentary on language variations around the world, I still remember one word that stood out - baba, papa, aba, father, etc. They all meant the same in every language and very similar in pronunciation.

You see ALL these myths about Creation stem from the SAME source!

After the Great Flood, from which came only 8 families, they all had the same story about the Creation. As they increased and spread out into various colonies around the world, variation formed in the story over time. If you gather some 10 of those stories from the different religions, you will find some common grounds in all of them.

Even many Christians don't know this fact. Let me take you even a step further. I guess you are aware that Moses made an ark of the Covenant for the tabernacle. Would you know that this ark was not the first? Prior to Moses' Ark, there were arks in Egypt and Mesopotamia and various places around the world. Why was this? I will refer you to the survivors of the Great Flood again. Those early fathers all had the knowledge of an Ark in Paradise and as they scattered, they made variations of this, too.

Now does this mean that there are several ways to God instead of Jesus? No. Why is my argument for Jesus Christ as being the ONLY way to God?

There is no one in history that has a matching credential as Jesus Christ. Every "messiah" in every religion of the world is tainted by sin and none claimed exception to sin except Jesus Christ. See this, a Few Prophecies about Jesus:
Micah 5:2 (Matthew2:1-6)
Isaiah 7:14 (Luke 1:26-28)
Deuteronomy 18;15,18,19 (John 7:40)
Zechariah 9:9 (John 12:12-16)
ISAIAH 53:1,3 (Matthew 26:3-4, John 12:37-38)
Psalm 118:22 (Acts 4:1-12)
Psalm 41:9 (Matthew 26:14-16,47-50. Luke 22:19-23)
Psalm 16:10 (Matthew 28:1-10, Acts 2:22-32)
Psalm 110:1 (Mark 16:19, Luke 24:50-51)
Isaiah 6:10 (John 12:39-40)

Jesus fulfilled these prophecies and much more! How many people in history have fulfilled anything close to 10% of these? None! It is further proof that the Almighty God was orchestrating the Person of Jesus all along.

To get a feel for the probabilities involved, consider this. An author and speaker named Josh McDowell calculated the odds of Jesus fulfilling only eight of the Messianic prophecies as 1 out of 10¹⁷ (a one followed by 17 zeros). This is equivalent to covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep, marking one of them, mixing them all up and having a blindfolded person select the marked one at random the first time.

I hope you will reflect on this before you make any conclusions, my friend. And should you desire, you may give your life to Him right now, wherever you are, just say these prayers with all your heart:
"Lord, I open my heart to you! Allow me to know You in my life. My Lord! Change me from inside. I accept You as my Saviour and as my Deliverer! Save me from my sins and wash my heart, my Lord! I put all of my life into Your Hands. Use me, O my Lord! Enlighten my heart, Lord, and let me overflow with love. My Lord, I receive You into my life in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen!”

TheBigUrban2:

Sounds like your God is a giant azzhole.
I guess he cries at night when people ignore him

IF you think cussing my God is a good way to provoke me, despite the warnings, you have something else coming your way. History does not favour you at all, that I can guarantee you. I will just cite a few examples for you:

#1. Go and read about the end of Belteshazzar in the Bible or history books
#2. Read about the end of Pontius Pilate
#3. Herod
Acts 12:21 On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them.
Acts 12:22 And the people were shouting, "The voice of a god, and not of a man!"
Acts 12:23 Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.
#4. Obliteration of Sodom & Gomorrah

Pro 1:23 If you turn at my reproof, behold, I will pour out my spirit to you; I will make my words known to you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Pro 1:25 because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof,
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you,
Pro 1:27 when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me.
Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD,
Pro 1:30 would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof,
Pro 1:31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them;
Pro 1:33 but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster."

Lastly, you reminded me of a man in our contemporary world, Ahmed Deedat. He was brash and arrogant, he boasted against God and poked fun like a flood. His day came. In his 1985 debate with Dr. Anis Shorrosh, he prayed and asked God to mute whoever is mistaken and lying.

God answered his prayer on May3, 1986. Four weeks after, he attacked the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ with his provocative lectures in Australia. Shortly after this, he was stricken with a stroke, which left him paralyzed from the neck down because of a Cerebral Vascular Accident affecting the Brain Stem. He became completely MUTE, he could neither speak nor swallow. He remained paralyzed and mute for 9 years till death claimed him in August 2005.

He was tormented by a small spirit called paralysis in preparation for eternal torment!

Galatians 6:7 informs, "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap."

It is there for all to see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvH87b22mdc

IF YOU REFUSE TO REPENT, YOUR CALAMITY WILL COME and GOD WILL HAVE THE LAST LAUGH!

Weah96:

Even YOU wouldn't BE convinced of his friendship. Especially if he's a mind reader AND a clairvoyant. The entire arrangement will be one giant heap of AWKWARDNESS. I wouldn't know whether to keep begging for my life or flee. But at no point would I consider our arrangement a friendship. However, if there was any shred of truth to the claims made in the Bible, I would be forced to accept the terms of the prevailing dictator and would do everything in my power to keep from being roasted. Fortunately, I don't have to go through any of that. I've made some thorough inquiries and my conclusion is that the authors of the bible were high on a common entheogen. Maybe one that grows in that area.

Well, how certain can you be? Personally, I am more than convinced that the friendship is genuine, beautiful and enduring.

You certainly come across as someone with a lot of distrust, possibly that is as a result of some personal trauma. If you can't trust yourself or people you can see it will be quite difficult to trust the One you can't see.

I find your comment regarding the authors of the Bible ill-informed, disrespectful and distasteful. It is a cheap shot and you know it. The Bible, which is a compendium of 66 books agree together as one; written by over 40 authors using 3 different languages, living on 3 continents and over a span of 1500 years. It is UNIFIED in that all describe the same aspects of the essence, expectations, and revelations. What am I trying to say here? There are other places in the Bible where so-called pericopes are explicitly expressed, confirming the areas of pericopes to be just as true.

You need to rethink your beliefs about the Bible.

I must confess that I like all the stuff you wrote. You see, we may not always agree on the same thing, but we can reason as matured and sensible people.

My reasoning behind the existence of God did not start from the Bible. It started back in Naija as I grew up in a polygamous setting. A lot of fetish and voodoo (babalawo) stuff were being carried around by my step mothers. Initially, all those things never meant anything to me and I noticed that my father used to dismiss them as utter nonsense, he was my god (as most children viewed their fathers). But after a while I began to see how young and bright people's lives were being messed up! Then in my secondary school boarding house, some locals would use what we called bakusha (shubu-shere), a type of fetish that works through touch. When the user hits you with it, you just fall down as a truck hit you. Gradually, I began to reason and believe that there is spiritual power that these fetish stuff was supernatural. Then my cousin stepped on a fetish one day and her leg swelled up as if it was elephantiasis. Doctors were helpless, they had to carry her to a voodoo man who cured her over a period of months. My eyes were opened!

To cut a very long story short, after a series of events (which I don't want to get into here), I encountered Christ and later accepted His offer of salvation the way it happened to me was dramatic. I was invited to a church setting (prior to that I seldom go to one and if I went it was because of the girls). As the preacher started preaching, it was as if he knew every detail of my life and he used it to preach. Now, no one in that place knew me or family background. That touched me and I accepted Christ as my Savior. It was after this I started reading the Bible so as to get to know God.

That was also one of the reasons why I asked if any atheist out there believes there is a spiritual world.

finofaya:
Brother,

From the way you put out this challenge, I guess you view the fact that anything exists at all as enough reason to conclude that God exists.

I agree with you, to the extent that our existence is utterly amazing. I would also pass the buck of explaining our being here to God, but, considerate man that I am, I decided to help God explain his own existence.

You can't help God in anything. To be honest, He doesn't need our help for anything, rather we need His.

finofaya: In the process, I discovered that God cannot bear the burden of being the reason for our existence.

He is the reason for our existence. Sometimes, I view Him as my boxing manager/coach with Him sitting quietly and watching me in the ring with the Devil, with the assurance that "my boy will whoop his bum to submission, just watch this space" .... Yes, it's somewhat difficult to explain our reason for existence without the explanation the Bible provides, but I feel it does a good job at it.

It says, we are created for His pleasure. We bring some degree of joy and satisfaction to Him (Revelation 4:11).

finofaya: As you put it, our sudden our appearance is impressive, and it requires explanation. Sudden appearances require explanation then. If the explanation for God is another sudden appearance, then we are back at square one.

The explanation for God's appearance in Creation is beyond our comprehension. As I mentioned in one of my previous comments, I don't know everything, that is one of those things that I don't know.

But, I know that we didn't just appear. We were created for a purpose, because we are the crowning glory of His Creation. At least, it was written that He created us in His own image, not in the image or likeness of of animals or trees.

finofaya: I have been told severally to just accept that 'God' (in the sense of a proposition). Ask no further questions. But since the reason we have the concept of God is that we are looking for sufficient reason for our being, (sudden appearance was deemed insufficient) why should we accept sudden appearance of another being as sufficient reason? We might have as well not bothered with the question, right?

As I mentioned above, God's existence is beyond human comprehension, trying to define His beginning is an impossibility, because He is the Beginning. If I were you, I'd rather rack my brain to invent some technology instead of desperately trying to solve the unsolvable question. No human being will ever be able to solve that dilemma.

finofaya: This is what I mean when I say the bible cannot be the centre of the discussion, because the bible just says that 'God'. Nothing more. No explanation. That is not enough. No other text has provided the explanation. So we move away from all the texts and try to reason out the explanation.

As I explained above, my walk with God did not start from the Bible. Again I present my previous question again, do you believe in the spiritual world?

finofaya: While reasoning has led us the big bang theory, that theory is not the explanation for our being here. It has never been touted as being one. All it does is try to explain how the universe got to its present state. It does not day what caused the big bang, and what there was before the bang.

I want to believe that you know that the theory of the BIG BANG has been seriously discredited through the explanation of the Quaser's location with respect to the galaxies and the Red shift distance and the brightness of the quaser, with people such as T. Van Flandern (1992), ] E.J. Lerner (1991), Guthrie & Napier (1991), et al.

See http://phys.org/news190027752.html
and
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/BB-top-30.asp#_edn19

finofaya: We don't have the answer to the question of existence of the world, but to say it is a being that brought it about is to beg the question.

You want to try the Higgs Boson or God Particle Theory?
It is probably the best non-Biblical explanation of the origin of the Universe. Do you want to engage in this theory?

finofaya: If you want to convince me to follow you, you must explain how God came into being, and why he is a christian. Your reason must be one which is unattainable without God. Not stuff like sudden appearance which favours a Godless universe just a much as one with a God, and probably even more.

Unfortunately, I will disappoint you there because even if I can convince you, I am not seeking followership or disciples. But, you must know that Christianity (not the religion but the practicality of it) is the most hated of all in the world, despite its base of love and hand of peace. The question is WHY?

From my short story above, in the dark side of the spiritual world, all religions are frowned upon and scorned at except the one practiced by the TRUE Christian. That should speak volumes. For example, I recently posted of the fact that the vast majority of the world population eating processed foods have latent carcinogenic time bombs within them - only the true Christian has a genuine antidote! That you can believe me or disagree, time will soon tell - that I can GUARANTEE you within the next 14months!

I have done my research and it is not scaremongering, my friend!

.

Kay17: @Braveguy

Now that the slate is clean. And the fallacy of God and the spiritual have been wiped off. The question of our existence ponders us. But the answers are more of speculative.

I love you, bro (as a brother - I'm very straight )

Yeah, clean slate and respect for my God, Father & Friend.
I don't mind being bashed as having big head, 20 toes and Baba Sala-kind of tummy (even though I am none of these), I can take all that on the chin or even with tears, but never retaliate. But I feel sick when someone starts bashing God without having been able to hear His side of a story.

Yeah, I love you and would pray specially for you tonight

TheBigUrban2:


God taught you how to call people silly and dimwitted, eh?

Such a marvellous God

You asked me to do so through the display of your foolish comments. If you show respect to my God, I will respect you, too. Very simple. As a Christian, I respect people, but when people deliberately show disrespect to my Maker, I don't enjoy it or find it funny. You can disrespect me, if you want, but not my God.

So, did God teach me to call those who show disrespect to Him silly or dimwitted? YES!
Check it here: Psalm 14:1 and there are MANY places like that in the Bible.

Dapo777:

Which atheist do you know that believes in the spiritual world?

That was why I asked, if I knew them on this forum, I could have mentioned them by name.

Dapo777: You see you are already concluding that I have a closed mind simply because I asked critical questions.

It wasn't a conclusion, it was a guess.

Dapo777: How do you know the ones that truly happened?
What about the paranormal events shot on screen in YouTube ? Were they planned? Yes.

Well, I don't believe most of the YouTube paranormal events. I don't waste my time on fake or made-up stuff.

Dapo777: I have limited MB now,tell me was he an atheist before who later became a Christian? Your answer to this question will enable me to answer you and tell u what I think.about Him.

I would come back to you on that. I don't have the time to watch it again now, it been a long time since I saw it.

Dapo777: So you mean before the time of Jesus people weren't too busy with their own stuff?Whose stuff were they busy with? Was Samuel listening to God when God woke Him up from sleep with an obviously loud voice?
If Samuel was sleeping before he was woken up by God's voice,can you say Samuel was actually listening and prepared to hear God's voice?

This is one of your answers that really made me laugh -

God actually changed the order of things from the time of Jesus Christ. I will explain this more below.

Dapo777: So during the old testament age,people weren't distracted? Everyone was focused on hearing from God,that is Why God was able to speak to them Loudly?
So while Samuel was deep in sleep he was in the right environment to hear from God? And Since no one can reach the depth of Samuel sleep this days,no one can hear from God loudly again?

Ok that time before Jesus came,God need to be shouting to communicate But now the solution is for Him to live inside us,because people of those days had hearing problem So He needed to shout then,But people of this day had better hearing ability So He doesn't need to shout again But simply whisper or live in us to hear Him right?

Another one that made me laugh

Now, here is my take on this matter as to why people don't hear God's audible voice as in the Old Testament. It's an expansion on my previous statements.

In the Old Testament (OT), they had a tabernacle/temple and God would meet the priests and prophets and speak to them, usually at the place. So, the Jews had a very strong attachment to this way of experiencing God. Besides, it was usually upon one man that the Spirit of God would rest upon for the communication and usually the priest had to wear a special robe (ephod).

But when Jesus came, God changed everything, and when He informed the people, they got offended. In fact, they used it as part of the reasons for crucifying Him. What did Jesus tell them?

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

When a person truly gets born again, the Spirit of God would come into that temple (of the body) and abide there instead of the OT temple. It is from there that God speaks to the Christian.

Finally, Jesus said something that should summarize it in John 18:37, Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, "Thou sayest that I AM king. To this end I was born, and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth hears my voice."

This is simplest way I can explain it to you.

Dapo777: Those people who have been programmed for destruction is it their fault? And how is it their fault If you think So?

I honestly desire you to watch the latter video I posted, but it's unfortunate that you may not. But, let me try my best to give you the gist: most of the food, especially processed food that is being consumed around the world today have been infested with some fungi and that fungi can EASILY cause cancer. What they need to do is turn on/activate the fungi and cancer will start in the person. How would they do this? The fungi can respond to a certain frequency. This has NOTHING to do with God. But, the Christian has a special protection from all those stuff!

What is happening there is like what happened at the time of Moses vs Pharaoh, Moses threw down his rod (and it turned into a serpent) and Pharaoh's magicians did the same, but Moses' rod swallowed those of the magicians.

If you think that is fallacy, remember 9/11 or the war in Iraq, you think it was actually Muslims that were guilty? Go and do a proper research and you will discover that it was an INSIDE job! That's all I will say.

Dapo777: So you think God doesn't need to prove Himself again because He has done So before,and that is because those people that God choose to prove Himself to are better than us now,So He doesn't need to prove Himself to we that are less important than people of those days right?

What does He need to prove? Show a sign or wonder? Jesus said something about that as well, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed." (Matthew 16:4)

@Dapo777


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHQtjWSQdKA

The early part of the video was quite uninteresting to me, but it did set a good background for the statements Dr Horowitz would make later.

apolonius: Atheists are often very smart people whose high valuation of reason and evidence dictate disbelief.The foremost philosophers from Miletus were sound thinkers but atheists,Thales,Anaximander and Anaximenes. So were the successors of the medieval churchmen thinkers and writers like Neitzche,Camus,Macchiavelli,Hegel,Bacon,Hobbes et al.

In our times,Dawking and S.Hwakings,to Sam Harris,christopher Hitchens-the late titan of polemics and reason,Harvard's Niall Ferguson,James Fenton,Ayan Hirsi,politicians like Nick Clegg,Ed Miliband and David Milliband,Steve Fry and the Nigerian answer to Hitchens,Unilag's Douglas Aniele whose Rational Perspectives column in Sunday Vanguard is a temple of reason,are high flying egghead and colossus of knowledge and intelligence.

I have read all there is to read about atheism and have,in homage to liberty which I cherish,given some deep thoughts to it,but my experience and all there is in the world tell me that God exists and He is real.

Well, I have twice watched John Lennox tear apart the arguments of Richard Dawkins in philosophical arguments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0UIbd0eLxw

TheBigUrban2:
Guy, e dey pain you?

I know when to apologize when I have wronged someone. I was attributing your silly and dimwit comment on brainwaves to him. So, it's not a case of pain but of acknowledgement. I could have ignored it, but I am not like that. My God taught me that if I am wrong I should acknowledge it.

Dapo777:
I do not believe in a spiritual world,I believe in a natural world.

While I'd be happy to engage you, the question was specifically directed to those atheists who believe that there is a spiritual world.

Dapo777:
Spiritual world exist when people have no explanation for things yet. But once it becomes explained,it's no longer spiritual But natural.

Well, I have never had that type of experience of not being able to explain a phenomenon that seem spiritual only for it to be a natural event. I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon of so-called spiritual extremities. Yes, I am aware of a few of such things, when I hear such "evangelists", I stay away from them. I'd be more than happy to debunk some of those if you have them.

Dapo777:
You seem to be very logical from ur posts,But the question is,are u open minded enough to see things from the "atheists" point of view?

I'd be happy to see things that I have never seen before from your perspective, but I guess the bottom line would that you have a closed mind that there is a God, too.

Dapo777:
I have a question for you,Why is it that everyone who believes in spiritual power only have anecdotal evidence? Their beliefs in spiritual powers is always based on the fact that they heard it from someone,that someone heard it from another person,that person also heard it from another person and So on like that? Why is it that people always forget their camera phone when a "spiritual event" is occuring? If you Check all the paranormal videos on YouTube, u would always find another video to debunk it and explain how it was done. WHY

Well, some of these things do truly happen and usually you never planned for it. I have had a few of those myself. But then there are people who are desperate to make claims that they either saw or experienced these things simply because they want others to view them as being "super spiritual", it is an ego trip and a lie. God doesn't need anyone to lie on His behalf.

What about this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVmNf-KtVs0

I would like to know what you think about him - and if I were you, as an ardent atheist, I would like to prove myself against such a person, to test that I am exceptionally correct in my belief system.

Dapo777:
I also have another question, Why is it that God no longer speak to people now in a loud clearly audible voice as He used to do in Bible stories? Why do people of now a days,have to keep quite and listen carefully to the whispers of God,Why is God's voice no longer as audible as before and Why is He more reluctant to speak to us directly But rather God prefers using Bible to talk to us?

God does speak, but the vast majority of the human race are too busy with own stuff, even so-called Christians, and are not listening or hearing Him. Even myself, I can't claim that I am 100% at being attentive to Him.

Dapo777: Why can't God talk to us directly So that no one would ever have a reason to doubt Him as plenty are already doubting him.

Look around you, see the amount of distractions, bombardments with with commerce, look at the amount attention given to the recent FIFA world cup, as soon as that is finishing there are some others that have been lined up. And all the human emotional weaknesses are being exploited to the tilt. In such an environment, how do you expect a person to hear from an Invisible God?

Yet, God is aware of all these things and has also made a way for anyone who truly loves Him. Naturally speaking, if you love someone you would frequently disregard all the distractions, even at cost, and make time for your beloved. The same is with God.

But, more to your concern of being able to hear Him clearly. He doesn't need to be shouting from some strange upstairs, His solution is that He lives INSIDE the believer. So the communication system cannot be broken. So, when the believer make time for Him, all other distractions are easily overcome, so much so that the believer doesn't have to be dramatic or become hysteric.

Dapo777: Why can't God do something ground breaking to prove to the world once more that He is God,He proved to plenty people in the Bible like pharouh and the prophets of Baal that He is God,Why Does God no longer feels the need to prove himself again,despite the fact that plenty people are losing their faith already. I have countless of questions on my mind,But this two are among the most worrisome questions.

Like what? All He needed to do he has done, except that He is about to SHAKE the whole of heaven and earth. That is why He says judgement will start from His own house, that is, with ALL those who claim allegiance to Him. He says it like this: "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

So, He will prove Himself again and everyone would witness it, it won't be a whisper. That time will be called "Tribulation".

Please don't believe all those falseteaching that Christians are going to disappear into some thin air, we'll all be here and everyone will witness it. It is the apocalyptic end.

While I would like to attend to your questions, I have just one for you, for now. Are you prepared for this apocalyptic end?

By the way, it has already began!

Most people have been pre-programmed for a disastrous time in the VERY NEAR future and they don't even know it. Only the people of God cannot be affected by this, because the programming doesn't affect them.

I know this sounds incredible. The Bible predicted this and it's already out there taking effect. Sad to tell you that they are not even aware of this in most churches, too!

Jesus said it would take hold of the world like a thief in the night.

Weah96:

What are you talking about dude? You had a conversation with another handle about brainwaves. It wasn't me.

I apologize, Weah96, it was TheBigUrban2 who was making that silly statement that he knows when he has no clue of what he was talking about.

Weah96:

Ok, let's called it mandatory friendship. Does that make sense to you? How can someone who wants to be your friend also promise to torture you if you refuse? With "friends" like that, who needs enemies? Hahaha.

No, it's deeper than that.

You see, I am a little happy that you believe there is a God, it's just that you don't know Him. What if this God, as the Supreme being, issues a command/order for you by which you should abide, would you dare query or rebel that command? I mean we are talking of the Creator of the Universe. But He also says, if you rebel against His order you would be severely punished. No you won't. However, He leaves the choice of decision to you, setting a time limit.

Now extend that, then you voluntarily obey the command (either by fear or cheerful acceptance), then if that Creator hears of your decision and throws a party for you and at the party He comes to whisper in your ears, "I would like to be your friend." This time He doesn't threat, but says the offer is yours if you so wish. And He starts paying you a regular state visit. Would you not be won over? Be honest.

Weah96:

I shouldn't have to kill myself to verify your deity. Besides, I don't believe that brain waves are real only because of the reputation of the sources. Their claims must also be consistent with reality, ie, products like pharmaceutical drugs and high tech gadgets that are based on those claims must work flawlessly. Otherwise, like the handful of Jewish authors who wrote your book, they should not be believed.

I wouldn't begrudge you to kill yourself to verify my God, I am pro-life.

This woman's research should prove something to you....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545668/Is-proof-near-death-experiences-ARE-real-Extraordinary-new-book-intensive-care-nurse-reveals-dramatic-evidence-says-banish-fear-dying.html