₦airaland Forum

No country needs the prosperity preachers, not even in Africa.
Yes America and the UK, are stable, in some ways, but in other ways "No" not at all. Money prosperity belongs to the world.
Hitler once said: to own a country-you must first disarm it. And the Church once said: for the sake of money, we own the world.
Africa is not alone-we as Christians fight the same fight, we are tested all day long.
Jesus said: I am the truth & the life the resurrection, the good shepherd, the bread of life, the light of the world, the gate, and the true vine, everybody who seeks after Me will find Me. This enlightens our souls even in Africa....

paxonel:
prosperity preachers can afford to exist in developed nations such as America and the UK, these countries have stable economy.
The urgent need for Africa is not prosperity preachers, Africa need enlightenment urgently.
Africans need to be informed about the Bible content, what information the Bible is trying to pass, and no pastor is ready to do that. All they want is money.
Right now, i followed a friend to one liberation city church in Lagos, Nigeria.
the pastor is just saying because Abraham sacrificed his son(ignoring the Scripture that says the least person in God's kingdom is greater than Abraham ) that church members should go and empty their bank account and come and sacrifice the money on his ulter.
i swear to God, this thing is happening right now as i post this ,10:37am, Sunday 26th July 2015.
You can search for pastor Chris okafor message of this date.
image the way people are desperate to get money.
and foolish Nigerian government don't see these things

It don't matter what part of the world you go, we will always find prosperity preachers every where, all preaching the same sermon {Money}
What you had said: this same teaching 'all must go to Church, came directly from the Roman Catholic Church at the Vatican.
It was Pope Francis who is pushing for the new world religion, bringing to power, a law that everyone must worship God on a Sunday.
Sunday worship, is not biblical.
With the info you have shared, shows another Church bites the dust, that's leading many to Hell.
1 Timothy 6: "Its been in the last few years we are hearing more and more about these Churches, and its sad every time when we hear God's chosen have been led away, for Error and greed; preachers are proud, knowing nothing, causing disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife reviling, evil suspicions, men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, using the word of God as the means of financial gain.
And the Lord says withdraw yourselves from these men.
Matthew Mark and Luke Jesus warns us, many will come in, His name, claiming they are He.

paxonel:
Oyedepo is the founder of the living faith church in Nigeria, Africa.
i live in Nigeria though I visit the UK often.
i see the differences in values between UK churches and African churches.
i think the problem of Africa comes from the african traditions.
the Bible preaches ethics and love..
African traditions uphold injustice, and infringe on the rights of the minors.
Africans unconciously take these values into their churches.
the worst is, they use rapture to threaten church members in Africa that, if they are not loyal to pastors they will miss rapture and go to hell fire, saying that if Jesus come and meet you and catch you red handed when you are suppose to be in church .
So, every Christian in Africa are all church freak.
Then, you see these kind of pastors who will tell you that the reason why you are not making money is because some spiritual men in your village are hunting you.
Then, you will start calling your old mama in the village witch and refused to take care of her.
university professors in Africa are also brainwashed like this, by illiterate pastors.
imagine the level of injustice and ignorance

This is why there are major problems involving the church, no-one is gain enough to question the head, allowing these mad men's to continual to control these non-spiritual churches.
An old traditional family type head, should be asked questions, involving family traditions, but to allow a man to control a household without training, is like placing a child in to be the next government.
Home or Church does not make any differences, even the leadership takes orders from either the law or if they are Christian take orders from God.
Who is Bishop oyedepo? And what was his experiences in the UK.
You seem to know a lot about what is happening in Africa-is it because you live amongst the African community.
Is this your Church you belong too, the Living Faith Church the winners chapel in Africa?

paxonel:
they can't try all that in developed countries where people ask sensitive questions such as uk, SA and america.
Bishop oyedepo will tell you his experience in the UK.
our priority should be mental development of church members, but African tradition nor let us see road.
just like what is happening in African families, the father will mess up and nobody questions him in the house simply because he is the head, the same thing is practiced in churches. Nobody question pastors even when they are wrong

The Lord said he will come back a second time-your theory shows He's coming back a third time.
The bible clearly states us in scripture when Jesus first entered into the world as a child, He also states He will come back no more then a second time.
The Lord said every eye will see Him coming in the clouds at the end of the age, Not before.
Matthew 24:36-38 "Even though He had told us no-one knows except the Father. He has given us these warnings around these last day's.
V's 37 '" But in the days of Noah were 'so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
A lot has happen since, and the more we turn on our Televisions, read news papers the world has turned upside down, the weather has hit the roof and people are running to and fro, as you can see the Lord has been given us these end time warnings, just so we know these times are near.
This rapture theory has been twisted around so much people aren't reading their own bibles to even find what is the truth and what is not the truth. This is starting to sound like a secret society club, that only those who will be rapture'd will know when this time will take place. Jesus said every eye will see Him, not just a few who are rapture'd at the end of the age.

We have all seen the movies about these end times theories, many are being used as warning signs, others don't make sense, like the movie left behind-but either way we are reminded each day to get ready for the Lord.
Many believe the rapture will take place before the tribulations starts. The tribulations have already started. Look around you.
And where is it written the raptures before the 7 years and after the 7 years,Christ will return bringing with Him tens of thousands of His saints at the end of the age.
Would you share some light on this subject?
Have you heard the parable that's written in Matthew 13:24 "Its about the tares and the wheat, Jesus say's at the end of the age, the angels will gather up the tares first and put them into the fire, and then they will gather together the wheat and put them into barns.
{It means the elect is the wheat, and we won't be taken up into heaven 'until the tares which are those who had refuse Christ, are gathered up together first and put into the fire} {Other words meaning to say>we are the last to leave planet earth, we are not the first}
THIS SCRIPTURE LIKE ANY OTHER SCRIPTURES ALONE DOES NOT BACK UP THE RAPTURE THEORY BEFORE THE END OF THE AGE.

Sunglow:
And those that are still alive who are in Christ we also at the sound of the trumpet be caught up in the air to meet the Lord.(many on the earth after the rapture will notice the sudden disapperance of peoples allover the world bit they will still not understand what has happened)Then we go to heaven. In heaven we will stay only 7 yrs after the 7 yrs then will Christ n tens, tens of thousands of His saints return to the earth this time around "all eyes shall see him"because this time his feet will touch the earth( I think mount Oliver in Jerusalem, but for the rapture he will just be in the air and rapture the church) that's when that scripture will be fulfilled.

Its only true if you decide to follow up on the truth about the word of God.

paxonel:
that's true

As Quote> But you don't how it is scam, you heard it from someone that tithe is scam just like they made you believe rapture is coming.
Was it not you who had "Claimed" you were taught about the rapture in Church, and you believed-just like we all were taught these same lies.
See people these days rely on the pastor more then they rely on God, no-longer do they read the word of God themselves. Having no knowledge or wisdom they are bumping into each other blinded. This gives the preachers a chance to say anything they like in Church, even if it does take people away from the word of God. Who questions their authority

paxonel:
Yes, it is true that tithe is scam.
i have analysed it, tithe is truly brain washing.
But you don't know how it is scam.
You heard it from someone that tithe is scam, just like they made you to believe rapture is coming.
You don't analyse the bible to confirm truths.
Anything they tell you, so long it falls within the general beliefs of people all over the country and your church, to you automatically it is true.
even when the whole nation is not morally upright, you ignore that fact and take their general principles and beliefs of rapture.
it is your choice

What does the bible teach?
But in this day and age Christians are loosing their faith in believing what is truth and what is the lie.
As time has travelled Pastors preachers, and priest have taken many of us away from the truth.
Not teaching us the word of God, the bible, but rather drawing us away so deep, that many of us can't seem to find ourselves back to Him who created all things that is created. Christian don't believe in Christians, {Jesus had warned us about these end time prophesy's and these days are coming and are already here}
People come back, the Lord is on our side.
Amen

You are in a world of your own their brother

OLAADEGBU:
MarkMiwerds is like...

And I would like to add, when believers don't check the word of God themselves, they end up confused about what's been said by the Church.
1 John 4:1 "My Dear friends do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
So its important to check the word of God. And read what Jesus says in word and in truth.

paxonel:
They used to tell us in church that when rapture comes, only those who will be raptured will see Jesus and disappear. While others will not know what is going on.
Now, you are saying every eyes will see Christ coming down?

I am not saying in my own words, but the bible says that every eye will see Jesus coming down.
The bible proves the rapture will come at the end of the age "not before" every eye will see Jesus coming, Not just a few-who are raptured.
Romans 8:18-38 "For the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. {Meaning everyone suffers before they can enter into glory at the end of the age}V's 36 As it is written-For your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Why do you even listen to these false prophets-when you have the bible in front of you, test the spirits-test the word, test the truth. Jesus said: He will come at the end of the age-NOT BEFORE.
I have heard this lie myself-and some believers claim and believe the rapture will come before the end of the age, they believe they won't suffer any pain before Christ is coming-this is not true.
I was taught this very same lie in Church, until one day I asked the lord for the truth' and sure enough the lord has been pouring out the truth amongst those who want the truth. The lord tells us "CLEARLY" in scripture when the final call up will happen at the end of the age, not before.

This is like the tithing scam they use within the church. ripping God's people off, twisting the truth around for financial gain.

paxonel:
They used to tell us in church that when rapture comes, only those who will be raptured will see Jesus and disappear. While others will not know what is going on.
Now, you are saying every eyes will see Christ coming down?

People aren't superman they cant fly into the clouds. {In flying machines they can} "Without the Lord, we can't do what Jesus can do, only the Father in heaven can rise Jesus and lift Him above the clouds, Spirit-flesh and blood.

Jesus said: what His Father done to Him, Jesus will also do for us.
John 12:26 "Whoever serves Me must follow Me, and where I am My servant also will be, My Father will honour the one who serves Me.
In Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thessalonian's, Revelation, He will come with great power and glory and lift us up as His Father lifted Him up into the clouds meeting Him in the air.

As Quote>Humans are demons or angels by their actions, as the case may be.
Any case humans are "Not" demons,what religion are you preaching if people were demons Then How did Jesus cast out demons from the people?

Ephesians 6:12 "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Witchcraft is real, you may not see it-but its there, demonic spirits roams around to find who they can devour.

1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring loin, seeking whom he may devour.
Could you show a little light on this subject why you feel humans are demons or angels, maybe you should look at it with another view. Plus I don't understand your theory about the rapture and what has it 'to do with these demonic beings anyway.

paxonel:
Demons and Juju do not exist in this physical world ,
They are all fictions.
Humans are the demons or angels by their actions,as the case may be.
The same thing with rapture.
people can never fly to the clouds or some mysterious disappearance in this physical world. If we die, anything can happen in the spirit, But certainly, not this physical world that we are living.

Revelation 3:22 "Whoever has ears let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.

Ephesians 1:17 " That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him {Jesus}.

Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Romans 8:9-10 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. "And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin" yet the Spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Revelation 1:7-8 "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so Amen.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, "Who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty

"Christ is hear in the Spirit" Christ said: He will come' in the clouds with great power and glory. Every eye will see Christ coming down from Heaven. Until then we are with Christ in Spirit and in Word and in truth..

paxonel:
You are good, you don't have any problem with God.
You are perfect the way you are like this, as far as God is concern. Simply because you believe in Jesus.
The same thing with me.
i believe that, to say Christ is coming is understatement.
Christ is already here with us

Is Juju a Gypsie word for luck
I suppose when nothing else seems to work-people in genial find artefacts to cling onto. We call it idol worship-this started back in the days when the Church started to idolise status-a pagan belief that change the world-taken people away from the image of God.
What has the Rapture got to do with Juju
This just shows people are walking with demons rather then walking with God.

paxonel:
one thing about Africans they think being diabolical is being spiritual.
They can afford to go to juju because they think juju works, But things don't work that way in real life.
Because they believe juju works that makes them think rapture will work.
white men knows juju don't work, rapture is riddle, not real life. so they preach it to mumu africans because they know africans believe in juju and diabolism which do not exist in the real sense.
Today Africa remain in delusion and confusion .
Na only education go save Africa

And I am enjoying my stay here on earth, being led by the Holy Spirit, everyday seeking new and better ways how to live a smoother life. Writing and studying the word of God, searching and learning new ways, finding written truths about our Lord as He lives.
Loving God-and loving my neighbour as myself. {Believing what was, believing what is, and believing what's to come}
Jesus Christ is Lord the King of kings and the Lord of lords.
How about you-who do you believe in-Has Christ came-"Or is Christ coming

paxonel:
please you have already seeked God's kingdom by being a Christian and not a Muslim.
You don't need church or ordinances or anything else But to avoid sin by loving your neighbour as yourself and enjoy your life here on earth

Jesus said: By there fruits you will know them.
As Quote>So you say-we are alive here on earth and people who once died, they resurrect and we who are alive see them interact {caught up} with them-and this thing happens everyday.
I am finding it hard to even understand your logic, It seems you believe Jesus had already come back the second time, and you are already in some kind of a heaven.
To be honest, I don't think anyone can understand your logic, you speak in riddles, rather then speaking the truth. Is this your only definition on the word Caught up?
Other meanings to the words Caught up are-Come, Contact, Match, Meet, Near, Reach.
1 Thessalonian's 4 say's the lord will {Meet} us in the clouds.

If You still don't agree with the meanings to caught up-then I advise you to either read up in the dictionary, or explain yourself more clearly explaining your theory loud and clear.

paxonel:
That is a big lie.
caught is never rapture.
caught is interaction of people here on earth.
caught up is, we are alive here on earth, and people who once died, they resurrect and we who are alive see them and interact(caught up ) with them.
This thing happen everyday But you people are blind.
You don't understand scriptures.
If you like, go back again and calm down and read the whole chapter of 1 thes 4 ,word for word, from the beginning to the end, it's for your own good .
when a person dies people weep and there is sorrow, But happiness comes when a child is given birth to. This is the caught up.
1 Thes 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
christians who understand it uses this scripture to comfort fellow christians who are bereaved of their love ones, that they are not dead but are alive interacting(caught up with other christians who alive) somewhere on earth.
And our new born babes caught up with us at birth.
This is what the scripture is trying to explain when it says
...together with them in the clouds, to meet the lord in the air.
it is this statement that is confusing you people .
You are not a small child.
Grow up, think and understand

Rapture is a means of transport, look it up in the directory. Don't jump to far a head of yourself; The word rapture isn't found written anywhere in the bible-but other meanings [that sounds] to the rapture word is. Such as we will be caught up {transported} together in the clouds, to meet the lord in the air.
Go back to your bible sit down and pray-ask the Holy Spirit to lead you when reading 1 Thessalonian's 4 From 13-18 its about the comfort of Christ's coming.
Christ said He will come back a second time-Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ has offered Once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a SECOND TIME, apart from sin, for Salvation.
Mark 16:9 "Christ had risen, He had arrived in birth, crucified and rose again for our Sins the first time, He said: He is coming back the second time for salvation.
Christ had to raise, so we can live.1 Corinthians 15:22
1 Thessalonian's 4-17-18 "Then we who are alive and remain {other words on Earth} shall be caught up together with them {The dead had risen} in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air{up above} And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
V's 18"Therefore comfort one another with these words{meaning to say, He is coming the second time} Comfort one another{Give the believers hope and happiness, sharing with them the promised Jesus Christ is returning to collect His elect a Second time} And this time we can all be with Christ for eternity, in the new heaven and the new earth..

It hasn't happen yet, but it will at the end of the age. listen and learn.

paxonel:
That is a big lie.
caught is never rapture.
caught is interaction of people here on earth.
caught up is, we are alive here on earth, and people who once died, they resurrect and we who are alive see them and interact(caught up ) with them.
This thing happen everyday But you people are blind.
You don't understand scriptures.
If you like, go back again and calm down and read the whole chapter of 1 thes 4 ,word for word, from the beginning to the end, it's for your own good .
when a person dies people weep and there is sorrow, But happiness comes when a child is given birth to. This is the caught up.
1 Thes 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
christians who understand it uses this scripture to comfort fellow christians who are bereaved of their love ones, that they are not dead but are alive interacting(caught up with other christians who alive) somewhere on earth.
And our new born babes caught up with us at birth.
This is what the scripture is trying to explain when it says
...together with them in the clouds, to meet the lord in the air.
it is this statement that is confusing you people .
You are not a small child.
Grow up, think and understand

This rapture name had already been written to you by another quoter, explaining where people get the rapture name from, where Jesus had written we will be caught up together with them in the clouds. Thessalonians 4:17 . Caught up is another meaning to Rapture.

paxonel:
Thank God you agree with me that 1 cor 15:52 is not talking about rapture.
i don't know where you people are getting that rapture thing from.
certainly, not the Bible

As quote> They will not take religion again seriously again so that they will begin to take education and national development seriously for their benefit.
Your quote> sounds-you have decided to take religion away from the Nairalands and others-because you feel they aren't doing enough for themselves, you also feel 'they should be out there retrieving more worldly education, just to get a job-in this day and age, in my country people can't get the work they need, its even harder when one can't afford to study to retrieve any qualifications.
Age makes a difference. So when you see people turning towards God, its not because they are lazy-its because the lord says seek and you will find. Remember it was our ancestors that prayed to the lord to bring us "all" into this world, It don't mean one hasn't any skills. it just means no-one is hiring the people. And if you want people to listen to you then I advise you not to twist the word of God around saying the end has already come.
So if your heart is about helping the people, then at least speak to them about the truth.
Jesus said>Matthew 6:33 "First seek the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
Seeking the lord first is a great start-Its what every Christian should do. Its His wisdom with His knowledge, that supplies our needs on daily bases.
And if the Narialands are waiting on the Lord? "then" Let them wait. Sometimes things take time.
I am sure if the lord calls for certain people to work He will supply, {ask and it shall be given} but for the others, He had called them to be prey warriors, so our nations will survive, when hell on earth breaks out at the end of the age..

All this shouldn't bother you anyway? Your best shot is do what you do best. Live. how you live. And let God worry about the nations and Nairaland.
As Quote> You are fighting God, and you can never win. Well I have news for you God and His word has already won.
As quote> unfortunately there are other guys, who are educated people too, they are not on Nairaland.
Again it seems you have a poor ling Idea, that those you have chosen to write on this forum, {such as you} are either helpless and are uneducated, does this mean you have judged me, even though I am not from your country Nairaland.
As Quote> You say if I like I can call you names-but it seems the name calling has come from you, not only mocking the Christians, but Nairaland people as well.
its important to note 'either Black or White, we are all part of God's image.

paxonel:
so you do not understand one thing in all i was saying you are countering me?
if you like, call me names.
those who understand my point have understood me.
certainly, there will be changes in the way they perceive the scriptures when they go back to read again.
with that, there will be change in their mentality.
They will not be reasoning like the average nigerian reasons, and they will not take religion seriously again so that they will begin to take education and national development seriously for their benefit.
i have a lot of guys like this and their signature with their email on nairaland.
so, i will be the one to tell you, that you are wasting your time countering me.
You are fighting God and you, can never win.
Nigeria will surely change.
unfortunately for you, there are other ,guys who are educating people too, they are not on nairaland

Quote> So the question is "Will there be a caught up or not?
If the bible says-we will be caught up together with the dead in the clouds, then believe its true-because the lord said it in the bible its true.

starlingslimnet:
My brother I will have you understand the Scripture for yourself and not what you are taught in church of Christ fellowship.

There will be "Caught up" of believers the Scripture clearly portrays that in 1 Thess 4:15 " Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Many call it rapture the Scripture says "A caught Up".

So question is "Will there be a caught up or not?

Which picture do you belong too?

paxonel:
You quoted revelation 21:1
why don't you quote verse 2 so that you will understand the verse 1 you quoted?
Revelation 21:2 says And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
So, heaven has already come down from heaven.
no rapture.
about 95 percent Nigerian christians still believe their is rapture till now.
why will Nigeria not be a corruption nation?
Because their believe system is faulty.
rapture doctrine has made Nigerians not to stand up for their right and seek justice.
they want to go to heaven in the clouds .
meanwhile heaven is right inside them.
heaven is not a place.
heaven is people on earth.
Jesus says i will build my church.
he built his church since 2000 years ago.
that church is heaven on earth, it is people on earth, it is all christians, not any place in the clouds.
white men who brought Christianity to Africa understand this truth, africans just dey mumu themselves.
if you go to Europe you see how white men are enjoying their lives. They now understand Bible.
so, they take education seriously and develop their world.
they don't have time for foolish rapture illusion.
To them, rapture is illusion.
But Africans just they kill themselves.
poverty won finish Africa because them they wait for rapture, them nor won take education seriously
them nor won work

You and your parter in crime Paxonel are either false prophets, or you are both on drugs. I have read your quotations and all I have witnessed, you both have a mocking spirit hanging over you, shown no remorse towards any of the believers in Christ.
Paxonel don't like the Africans because He/she claims they don't read.
It seems you both work as a team twisting the word of God 'denying its power. Jesus was speaking about the end of the age {Meaning the end of the world}
But as you can see the world has life still, and as Paxonel claim's the world had already ended when Jesus was crucified, back then. And as he/she continual's in word 'we are now living in heaven on earth, so their is no longer 'the end of the world' theory left.
Listen with this sort of information you are both wasting your time, you can't turn Christians away from believing the truth, they believe-not only by faith but in works also. It shows clearly you are both trying so hard to draw people away from the Lord, do you really believe in Jesus-even the demons believe and tremble.
The bible isn't just written in the flesh 'and in black and white-its written in the Spirit, and in colour.
I don't really understand where you are coming from-but let me guess-spirits don't actually die. They either travel to be with the lord in heaven, or they end up burning in hell for eternity.
"Ho sorry," Paxonel claims this is heaven
Luke 16:19-31 "The beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, and also the rich man dies and he was delivered to torment in Hades, and he lifted up his eye's and saw Abraham afar off, and the poor man in his bosom.
As the story continual's the rich man asked Abraham to send the poor man Lazarus to his fathers house, {Mind you they had both died and now they are in the spirit} the rich man had asked Abraham to send the poor man Lazarus from the dead, so Lazarus will witness to the brothers that they will believe, and Abraham said he can't send Lazarus to them, and if your brothers need to believe, let them listen to Moses and the prophets, and if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they listen though one raised from the dead.

Your words-Quote> the clock is ticking on-one knows when his or hers time will end. {But the lord knows, as its written}

bsjay:
It's quite unfortunate to know that death is still something so mysterious to many. Do not forget that u standing here on earth have within u the real ego, the core hence the real u standing in the other ends known as the beyond. It is this real u standing in the beyond that animated the physical body standing on earth and enables it to walk. If the cord connecting the real ego and the physical body which serves as a cloak for the real ego to be able to act on earth is tempered with sometimes through sickness, over cultivation, or severe pain, the ego severs itself from the ailing physical body in order not to feel the pain for a long time and this severance automatically results to what we see as death while the ego lives on. Now, to the question of the dead losing contact with loved ones, he or she actually lost no contact. He or she still sees the loved ones, hears all that they are saying and vigorously tries to call on their attention that he or she is still very much alive. But because of the spiritual conditions of the loved ones, they cannot hear, see nor sense the departed because they are either spiritually deaf and blind or spiritually dead. And in truth, this is the condition of more than half of humanity on earth today who call themselves believers. They prefer what those servants of darkness who parade themselves as servants of Light tell them because it pleases their itching ears and offers them a sense of comfort and ease. They prefer tinsels to pure gold. They accept stones instead of bread and therefore die slowly spiritually. A man that's truly alive both spiritually and physically is able to sense, feel, hear, see although sometimes partially the things going on in the world beyond. The condition of today's humanity is far worse than that of those in the time of Jesus on earth. They always expect the manifestation of God's Will or promises to come in a monstrous way not knowing that true greatness only lie in simplicity. They were expecting their Messiah but in their views, He would fall from the sky magically, or born in the ranks of the highly educated, super rich, etc. Unfortunately for them, the fulfilment came in a way so unassuming, so simple and the opportunity for them to embrace their Messiah passed them bye. And so is it this time in our days. Billions are expecting the second coming of Jesus in a monstrous way meanwhile He Who was to come which Jesus Himself bore witness of in Revelations1:4-5, might have come and gone unsuspectingly with very few who were able to recognise Him, accept Him and adhere to His everlasting gospel of the Kingdom, that which is perfect. Hence the fulfilment of the parable of the ten virgins. It is a sad picture but truth as it is. Every second and minute of the day is too precious to be wasted in blind faith. The clock is ticking no one knows when his or her end comes. No one is so sure of the next day on earth. Why don't we make such an effective use of the last chance God has mercifully granted us. The clock is ticking and the decision is ours. To save our souls or perish eternally.

You say we Christians don't study our bibles, are you talking for yourself as well Or just us other Christians?
It seems the only scripture you know is 1 Corinthians 15.
You need to open your bible on regular bases and search it deeper, you will be amazed what you will find? Believe it or not there are other verses that backs up 1 Corinthians 15-and it may blow your mind, so I advise you to sit down first, we wouldn't want to hear 'you have falling over and bumped your head.
And because you believe the black fella's always run into problems because they don't read enough. By your statement It seems you believe you sit above, and the black people sit below?
This is a very sad way of thinking, so I have to advised you to sit down before you find any more information about any more truth in Christ, and how Christ is coming back for His bride the Church.
Revelation 21:1 "For the first heaven and the first earth passed away and there was no-longer any sea. {Meaning to say, our earth is not heaven-and its not Hell either, our earth is a place for making the right choices}
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away but My words will never pass away.
Again if you don't like what the word says about meeting the dead in the clouds, talk to the lord about it. And tell Him He's wrong and your right.

paxonel:
in the clouds?
clouds is figurative statement which means heaven on earth.
please earth is better than clouds.
Adam and Eve sinned and lost eternal life here on earth.
Jesus died and resurrected and restore that eternal life Adam and Eve lost, here on earth and not in the clouds.
so, eternal life here on earth is real.
Go and read the whole chapter of 1cor 15 and draw out the summary.
the summary of that chapter is
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man(the son of man, which is Jesus ) came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Now, your rapture concept which is never mentioned anywhere in the Bible is never resurrection of the dead.
Resurrection of the dead entails that humans resurrect and live here on earth and nothing else.
If you are not living here on earth it is never resurrection..
I will liken you people to be the same as the saducees who says there is no resurrection of the dead. By that, i begin to wonder if you are truly christians?
But because you say you believe that Jesus is your saviour, you are saved by your believe (faith ).
Therefore, i cannot say you are not Christians.
Its just that, you people don't know why you are believing in Jesus, you were born into Christian family, you don't study your Bible to know why you are christians

You don't like to term clouds then your argument is with God.
And I never said 1 Corinthians 15:52 was the rapture in the first place, you have me mixed up with another quoter's.
I suppose you have been speaking so much rubbish, you can't keep up with your own quotations to whom?.
Quote>That's why they say, black men always run into problems because they don't read?
Who says? You.
And what gives you the idea my skin colour is black-and not white? Besides what has the colour of a man' got anything to do with anything, in God we are all the same.
Black, white, brown, yellow, who cares. As far I am concerned those who believe are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
So who are you to judge ones colour and what makes you any better

You still don't get it, you have been trying to convince others, about your own personnel beliefs, on how you feel the bible should read, and we Christians must turn to you, you believe you to have all the answers. "NOT."
1 Corinthians 15-50-58 "Is about the final victory, firstly flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, be hold we shall not all sleep but we shall be all changed. in a twinkling of an eye, for the trumpet will sound and the dead shall raise, "incorruptible"{meaning to say we have changed, from corruption to incorruptible} at the last trumpet we shall be all changed. And this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
{Meaning the ability to live forever, eternal life, everlasting life, deathlessness, everlastingness, timelessness}
"So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that its written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
No more death. Jesus said: he is the bread of life, the light of the world, the gate, the good shepherd, the resurrection and the life, the way and the truth and the life, the true vine.
O Death where is your sting O Hades where is your victory
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
"But thanks be to God who has given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Just by believing we have overcome death to life.

paxonel:
in the clouds?
clouds is figurative statement which means heaven on earth.
please earth is better than clouds.
Adam and Eve sinned and lost eternal life here on earth.
Jesus died and resurrected and restore that eternal life Adam and Eve lost, here on earth and not in the clouds.
so, eternal life here on earth is real.
Go and read the whole chapter of 1cor 15 and draw out the summary and find out why Paul will say a thing like
o death, where is your sting
grave, where is your victory .
After summarizing the chapter, if you are still saying that I cor 15:52 is rapture, then you really need to understand what a constructive argument is.
Because, the whole of that chapter is a constructive argument and
the summary of that chapter is
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man(Adam ) came death, by man(the son of man, which is Jesus ) came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Now, your rapture concept which is never mentioned anywhere in the Bible is never resurrection of the dead.
Resurrection of the dead entails that humans resurrect and live here on earth and nothing else.
If you are not living here on earth it is never resurrection..
I will liken you people to be the same as the saducees who says there is no resurrection of the dead. By that, i begin to wonder if you are truly christians?
But because you say you believe that Jesus is your saviour, you are saved by your believe (faith ).
Therefore, i cannot say you are not Christians.
Its just that, you people don't know why you are believing in Jesus, you were born into Christian family, confused by some ancient Catholic rapture doctrine which have no scriptural basis. you don't study your Bible to know why you are christians.
You read figurative statements in Bible(eg 1cor 15:52) without finding out the meaning.
You did not read the whole chapter either, so that you will know why 1cor 15:52 is there.
That's why they say, black man will always run into problem because they don't read

No-ones afraid of the rapture or the end of the world, Christians are jumping for joy.
You seem un-relax more then others by your disbeliefs.

paxonel:
wisdom demand that i live a godly life and maintain my faith in christ because I have conscience towards my fellow men, not because I'm afraid of any rapture or end of the world .
By this, my life is totally relaxed without fear to go about my normal duty and i experience total happiness

You call yourself a Christian and yet you have shown evidence you are not.
"Quote> If you are rapture'd you have lost contact with your love ones here on earth.
God is Love. What more do you need.
"Quote>And if people die they also lost contact with there love ones.
Not if their love ones were Christians, Jesus said at the end of the age, we will meet the dead in the clouds.

paxonel:
of what significance will that be to other people who will remain on earth after you have all gone?
to them, you do not exist anywhere on earth anymore.
is that not equal to death?
lf you are raptured you have lost contact with your love ones here on earth.
If people die, they also lost contact with their love ones

No there's no heaven on earth, I was returning my post to Paxonal, He claims he/she lives in heaven on earth, and the tribulations have passed back in the day when Jesus was crucified.

bsjay:
There's no heaven on earth! U would be more correct if u said 'hell on earth.
Notwithstanding, there are those who feel and enjoy the blessings and peace of heaven while on earth, and these are those who recognise the Laws of the Father and adjust their whole life to It. The Laws being the Will of the Father.
Certainly, the end is coming. But this post no sign of the end of earth existence. It simply means the end of all darkness, evil and those who take sides with it. We are already standing in that long predicted final judgment and the end is at hand. This end is actively at work through natural and man-made disasters, accidents and other vices we hear and see on TV and radio stations on daily basis, others we witness with our eyes. The end occurs on daily basis and individually, and will truly be an end when all the evil people and their darkness are cleared off the gross material creation. Then will the new dawn marks itself with the setting in of the Millennium with the leadership of the Son of Man Himself. It will be a glorious moment for all who survived the Last Judgment. Also, a moment of schooling for those souls on how they will live in heaven where only the Will of God reigns. Hence the fulfilment of the Lord's prayer, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 "{So you believe it was swearing that no-man can utter}
Weather He was referring to some angelic/heavenly language here 'we don't know. We do know what he heard was inexpressible. We also know that even if he could express it somehow through some supernatural ability, he makes it extremely clear it was not lawful for a man to express. Paul was forbidden for even try to express it, even if he had been able. What ever the sounds were, they were reserved for heaven only, and not some kind of heavenly, spiritual language God had given for the use of men.
It is also interesting to note that in many spiritual accounts where angels communicated with people they spoke to them clearly in there own language.
Jesus said: In Revelation 21:27 "Nothing impure will enter Heaven..
Have you heard the saying one must be born again.
In John 3:3 "Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven.
But these scriptures shouldn't worry you, you claim you are already in heaven.
So make room and allow the rest of us' enjoy the ride into paradise.

paxonel:
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise(heaven ), and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful(sinful ) for a man to utter.
the question is, do angels speak sinful words?
the answer is no.
it is humans that are sinful.
so, if God is merciful to sinners and bring them into his kingdom, who are we to question him?
Angels even say what is man that thou(God)should mindful of him? ( I can't remember the scripture )
Another thing is,
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it(heaven )
the question is, assuming heaven is beyond the clouds, how will the kings of earth bring their glory to it?
They will climb ladder?
lol

Your not understanding the scripture Matthew 24:21 "Jesus was predicting the future, and when He said until this time, He was talking in terms of the great tribulation at the end of the age.

Even the prophets in the Old testament, prophesied of Jesus's coming, they spoke well and truly into the future, not at their own time flame.
This is why we have the Old testament and the New testament.
Since you believe we are already in heaven on earth in this day and age, then at least you could show me in scripture where the Lord allowed Sin into heaven

paxonel:
take a look at the Matthew 24:21
Matthew 24: 21 "For then there will be great
tribulation, such as has not been since the
beginning of the world until this time, "No"
nor shall be.
did this Scripture mentioned that this great tribulation will happen in the future?
no.
Have you asked yourself why will Jesus used the phrase " until this time" ? ( meaning, that generation he was talking to his disciples when he was yet to be crucified )
The answer is not far
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you,
This generation( that generation he was
talking to his disciples which was about
2000 years ago ) shall not pass, till all
these things be fulfilled.
Are you now saying that Jesus lied?
when he said some of his disciples will not die until they will see his kingdom coming with power which actually came the day he resurrected.
You all know that great tribulation will happen before the so called end of the world
please all these things have already happened 2000yrs ago.
The world ended 2000yrs ago,
technology today is never sign of end time.
infact, technology is blessing to this generation, we should take advantage of it and make life easy and sweet.
Nothing that is happening in the news today that has never happened in the pass.
let us enjoy this life
life is sweet
we are already in heaven.
no rapture
no end time.
God's kingdom on earth has no end.
Oyedepo will say heaven on earth.
God bless him for that

Rapture is a word used by Most Christians who seem to think they will be rapture'd up into heaven before the tribulation period starts, not really knowing the tribulation period had already started.
Jesus had written' He will come for His elect at the end of this age {meaning at the end of this world}
Matthew 24:31 "And he will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect.
Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.
And later the disciples asked Jesus what did this mean and Jesus explained it like this.
Matthew 13:38-40 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the End of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
"Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the End of the age. "The son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and cast them into the furnace of fire. "Then the righteous will shine forth.
And Here's the scripture you asked for, proving Jesus is our Saviour.
1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world

paxonel:
just like that?
that because i believe that Jesus is the key to the supernatural, and he is my lord and saviour.
therefore, i should believe that rapture is real?
it does not follow like that.
give me scriptural proves that there is anything like rapture just like there are scriptures that confirmed that Jesus is the Christ and our saviour

I understand what you are saying but the separation of Revelation is being used away from the rest of the bible, all claiming Jesus will come back a second time with the saints, and when we read other scriptures besides Revelation, Jesus is coming back once with His angels to gather up the tares, firstly putting them into the fire , and gather up the wheat {the elect} putting them into the barns..
Which to say, we will be rounded up last, the {tares} non believers will be put into the fire before the believers {wheat} will be gathered into the barns.

Matthew 24:22 "And unless those day were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. So Jesus is not saying we will be rapture'd before the tribulation period, but rather near the end.

Again we look into this same scripture written in Mark 13:20 "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved, but for the elects sake, "Whom He Chose" He will shortened those days.
Whom the Lord choose. Again this scripture tell us, pretty much the same as Matthew, still saying we will go through the tribulation period, and we won't be taken up in the rapture before this time take place.
Jesus said, and those days will be shortened, for whom He chooses to take up into heaven.
What does Jesus mean by shortened? it sounds to me, He just said:we will suffer some persecutions.
When we read Revelation 6:10-11 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until "You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth.
Did not the saints in heaven asked the Lord how long will it be, and the Lord said:In V's 11 until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren , who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Does this say some will have to suffer in number as the saints did in heaven.

Luke 21:9-17 "But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified, for these things must come to pass first, but the 'End' will not come immediately." 'Then nation will raise against nation and kingdom against kingdom {He is talking about WW3}
Earthquakes, famines, pestilences; fearful sights and great signs from heaven, But before these things happen, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues {Churches} prolonging you in prisons, we will be brought before the kings {judges} and the rulers for My name's sake

If we were to be rapture'd before these things happen? Then who is Jesus talking about when already in some countries they are experiencing, these end time events' more then others.
And again when the world starts rocking and rolling-again if we were rapture'd up before the tribulation period than who will suffer in Jesus's name.

PMIcon:
Jesus is very clear on this question; evangelist sometimes try to scare people to Christ using the tribulation. The word "tribulation" is also called "distress" and there is one before what is popularly called the rapture which is in the scripture below and is triggered by the revelation of the antichrist which also will happen before the "rapture" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). During this period, the just shall in real sense live by faith. This is the time to learn to absolutely trust in God and live by faith in His promises otherwise one will become part of those who will "fall away".
Read what Jesus said below:

Matthew 24:21-30New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29[b] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days[/b] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Jesus told us not to be afraid and not to be cowards. We must be ready to stand true to our love for God and for one another despite global hatred on a larger scale against Christians that is coming upon the Church.
*The tribulation comes with the antiChrist,

*After the rapture the antiChrist will continue reigning

* but we will return with Christ to overthrow him (Revelation 19) and start the millennium (1000 years) reign with Christ on this earth(Revelation 20).

* Those who died for Christ during the reign of the antiChrist after the rapture will be raised up to reign with those who went with Christ at the rapture and returned (Revelation 20:5)

* Satan will be bound all this time

* After the 1000 years Satan will be released and he will deceive and lead war against Christ but his people will be devoured and he will be thrown into the lake of fire(Revelation 20:7-10)

* After the war the " Great White Throne Judgment" of all will take place (Revelation 20:11-15). It is the judgement of all who were devoured at the war and all who were not raised to reign with Christ (compare Revelation 20:4-6, 12-14). It is not the judgment of the saints

*After this there be a new heaven (sky and space) and a new earth and the new Jerusalem city will descend from Heaven (God's dwelling) and God the Father will live among us on earth and there will be no more death, sicknesses, diseases, pain or sorrows(Revelation 21:1-4)
Come Lord Jesus!

Then if you can believe this-then believe Jesus is coming back after the tribulation for His Church.

paxonel:
exactly, you are absolutely correct

I suppose you need to read the hole chapter of 1 Corinthians 15: Not just bits and pieces V's 39 all flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of man, another flesh of beast, another of fish, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial body is another.

The bible does not end here in "1 Corinthians, it continual's given us other scriptures written by the disciples having different views, the scriptures are back to back, don't forget the disciples had written the bible the way they had seen it, led by the Spirit of God-they had intrepid it 'so when we read it-we see it, in ways that we can understand it.

Jesus spoke in parables, so the crowd could understand Him. Without God people in genial think differently, with God we all think pretty much the same. usually when we read the bible and share the word of God, we are learning of each other.
I believe when Jesus said one must be born again-and baptised in the Holy Spirit, is the main key that opens a doorway into our own supernatural personnel life's.
James 2:14-26 "Faith without works is dead.

paxonel:
Thank God you came up with this
it's just that the things to address to Nigerians to bring about change of perception and mindset are so many.
i am trying hard to avoid writing plenty things.
See, Bible is beyond what you see as letters on paper.
You have to read everything and think deep to understand.
every chapter is like argument.
the structure of every argument has premises and conclusion.
sometimes the writter starts from the premises and end at the conclusion and vice versa.
so you must read everything in the chapter and draw out your summary.
you don't just read only 1 cor 15:50,51,52, and conclude that the place is talking about rapture, this is the mistake the ancient Catholic church did when they postulated the rapture doctrine.
today, Catholic church is running away from it
and penecostals are pursuing it blindly.
what was Paul's argument by writing 1 cor 15: 35 to the end, which include verse 50,51 and 52 ?
He was simply proving that there is resurrection of the dead, he never mentioned rapture or anything like people flying to the clouds.
He started by saying, some will ask, How is the dead resurrected and with what body will they come?
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
if you follow this argument of Paul to the end of the chapter you will find out that Paul is not a madman to start talking about resurrection of the dead only to begin to divert to something else which do not relate to how men are resurrected such as rapture in verse 50,51 and 52.
if you know what sound argument is, talking about rapture at the end will never make a sound argument for someone like Paul who was highly vast and educated in his time.
If you check all Paul's writing starting from Romans, you will see how he puts all his arguments intelligently and constructively.
So, when you read 1 cor 15:35 down, having said our body will change when we resurrect, he talk about different bodies created by God, some are terrestrial (earthly bodies ) others are celestial (in space ).
He said, God gives bodies according to his will (that is when we resurrect ).
so, we will come back with a different body .
Then he now pointed out a mystery in verse 51, still relating to this resurrection thing.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
meaning, we shall not die (sleep means death )But we shall all resurrect and change body
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Death is not death, But blinking of the eye (eye closed and open again into life ) at the last trumpet (Death is like calling, using trumpet, that your time has reach to die. In those days trumpet was used to call people either for battle or something,so understand why Paul is using the word trumpet here )
We will be called using trumpet, meaning, we will die.And the dead shall be raised incorruptible (we will not decay with our dead body ) and we shall be changed (our body will be change after we resurrect )
Now, looking at this, is there anything like rapture there? Or people flying to the clouds?
Sometimes, I wonder what Nigerians see when they read Bible.
Please, forget your pastors and church, read your Bible for yourself