₦airaland Forum

KnownUnknown:
@Budaatum
Do you live in Nigeria?

No, I do not currently live in Nigeria.

basilico:
How did Americans react when Russians brought their missiles to Cuba? If you neighbor is a burglar do you want him renting next to you?

You speak as if I support the antagonisation of Russia, which I don't. Ukraine however, is a sovereign nation that elected a president which Russia did not like and deposed and installed their own person in Ukraine who then got voted out for a person whom the people wanted. If they then choose then to join NATO, that is their sovereign democratic right and choice which Russia has not legal right to oppose.

If the burglar is my neighbour, they must already rent or own property near to mine, so I'd be shutting the gate after the horse has bolted if I'm objecting after they become my neighbour. That said, if the landlord who owns the neighbouring property wants to rent it to my neighbour who is a burglar, I have no right opposing either of them. I can of course rent the house myself, paying more than my neighbour who is a burglar wants to rent it for to keep my neighbour who is a burglar out, but god help me if my neighbour who is a burglar offers much more because they are competent at their burglary profession or if the landlord of the neighbouring house is a member of the same gang as my neighbour who is a burglar, though you need to wonder what I be doing living in my property and renting the neighbouring property too.

Long live the King.

obixcel:
Queen ELIZABETH II is Dead; Dies at the age of 96
May her Soul rest in perfect peace

Long live the King. May she rip.

basilico:
It was an unwritten agreement after the fall that NATO would not expand eastwards , which they consequently did.
Its commonly known that Russia has been seeething with anger over NATO, Their plan to put up a defensive shield does not go well . Because a defensive shield can be quickly turned into an offensive one where from Ukraine Moscow is only 500 miles away .

Anyway those are geopolitics. Putin is an expansionist too , with Crimea sea port he wants a land corridor to Russia.

Basilico! Written agreements are rewritten, so why would you expect an unwritten agreement to be cast in stone unless you are naive?

FemiAjani:
What I'm proposing as an alternative is that we can base our morals and mores on something innate to humanity, something which we all share and which we can actually agree is there. Things like our shared desires for survival, comfort, and individual agency. The common source that we'd return to is the human condition and the needs and preferences which arise from it.

Humans do not share conditions, unfortunately, and the Bible is an attempt at pointing out what should be innate to humanity in the form of survival on earth so conditions can be shared.

Prior to the Bible's creation and worldwide propagation and acceptance, every hamlet had their own human conditions (and religion), and never quite knew the conditions in the neighbouring hamlet. But bringing hamlets together under one umbrella of reading one Bible created an opportunity to share conditions.

Same as what we do here really. We share conditions (knowledge of the Bible), and learn from one another. You try discussing some philosophy book and see how you'd be avoided because many might not have read it.

FemiAjani:
This is something we can do without first settling whether a God exists, which god it is, which translations of which texts correctly convey that God's moral precepts, and what the correct way of interpreting those texts is.

Sorry Femi, but you will find this is something we cannot do, since many's reason for existence is gods. Besides, you are never going to share conditions with a person who lives for the afterlife, I don't think.

Someday though. If UK can abandon whether gods exist or not, so can we, in the year 2300 perhaps at the rate we are going. Though with people like you around, perhaps sooner like in 2030. Insha Allah, as is said.

FemiAjani:
The point I'm trying to make here is that the terms "Christian" and "Christianity" are... contested, to say the least, and I'm not going to accept your view that THIS or THAT attitude is Christian while the opposite is not.

You must not accept my view and I am not asking you to. We are contesting the terms "Christian" and "Christianity", and according to my Qur'an, God created us with our diversity so we may learn from one another, which I very much appreciate.

FemiAjani:
For every voice I hear that says Christianity is about loving your neighbors, it seems I see actions indicating that Christianity is about hating your queer neighbors and your non-Christian neighbors, and the actions tend to speak louder than the words.

I think you mean you listen more to actions than words, which would be rather odd since Christianity is based on a book with words, and those you see might not have read it or they might have misunderstood what they read.

You would not base doctoring on the basis of bad doctors, so why base Christianity on bad Christians?

FemiAjani:
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there actually is a clear, objective definition of Christianity to be read or inferred from reading the Bible. That would be great! If you want to prove that to me, let's apply a simple test. Some fact is objective if people can look at it and generally agree on the fact, right? You and I might both look at a color and agree that it's red (something that's objective) but disagree on whether it's pretty (which is subjective). So if you believe that it truly IS a source of an objective moral standard, .....

Sigh. First I'm accused of claiming the Bible is subjective though I hadn't but went on to somewhat do. Now here is you asking me to prove the Bible is the "source of an objective moral standard" though I never said it was but just might now.

No Femi, I can not "show them the objective facts contained within it proving that their morality is objectively wrong". Most would not understand how or why (think homosexuality and Nigerians). I do try though.

It is immoral for a God who created humans in its image to rule over the earth and the sea etc, to then place said humans naked in a poxy little garden and tell them not to eat the fruits of knowledge for fear they would die if they dared, when we read their eyes opened when they did eat, and they made themselves clothes and became self employed and went on to live another 800 years during which we read they populated the earth and then died.

How dare buda tell anyone to worship a serpent instead of a lying God, is what most ask. But I will persevere until my last breath because it is important to me that people realise they do not have to be descendants of stupid enslaved Adam, when descendant of use her senses Eve is preferable (in my opinion of course), and descendant of humans created in Gods image (the vice versa is more true, by the way), is much better.

Ref: https://www.nairaland.com/6795272/reeves-pass

The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

Can we repeat William Ruto's Kenyan experience in Nigeria's 2023 presidential elections?

The answer is yes. With our PVCs and open eyes.

chryssanthe:
Have you ever read your old book? The entire reason for a Jesus figure pivots around sin.
If you don't accept that Jedus died for you sins you're in for big trouble in the afterlife.
However, you may be a cafeteria Christian. You pick and choose all the nicey-nice stuff out of the New Testament and ignore all the crappy stuff.

I am not a Christian at all and Jesus did not die for my sins. Some idiots, not happy that Jesus did not save them here on earth from their sins, crucified him and then lied to themselves and anyone gullible enough to believe it, that their God sent him to be sacrificed.

Jesus would have been more valuable if they had learnt from him how to resist the temptation of sin instead of killing him because of their disappointment that he did not give them their daily bread.

benalvino3:
Putin Cannot dictate who joins who. Ukraine can join whoever they want to. If they want it so bad then they should fight for it.

Glad to see you at least disagree with basilico who thinks Russia should dictate to Ukraine and Europe.

kingjoe:
How much was it.is it the one they say has optical or so

649GBp. Google it for specs.

basilico:
Citizens will eventually get tired because they know who is prolonging the war and making them start cutting down trees to keep warm over Easter, being told not to charge the EV cars at certain times, maintaining aircon at 19 degrees centigrade lest they are jailed ( spain) , reduce the number of times they shower.
And also making underground bunkers ready in case of a nuclear war.

https://www.youtube.co.m/watch?v=DZl5vrqmfHU

It's called democracy, Bas. If people chose to not support Ukraine (Czech Republic springs to mind), the people can vote for leaders who oppose supporting Ukraine. Just that not everyone is self-centred like you are. Some will make sacrifices for the good of others,

FemiAjani:
I suppose we could talk about Christianity in the abstract. Or, at least, we can talk about this or that abstract version of Christianity, since the Bible is essentially a Rorschach test and Christians won't agree on what form of the religion the Bible is presenting in the abstract. But why bother? My focus is on (for example) actual Christians storming a nation's Capital and working to destroy democracy, or on actual Christians working for ways to turn everyone (like me) who doesn't look like them into second-class citizens, or on actual Christians doing some good stuff on the subject of poverty. Admittedly this last example interests me less, because I'm going to focus on the person pointing the gun at me rather than on the person who isn't. Hypothetical, abstract Christians don't rate my attention at all. I prioritize actual threats over imaginary ones. If instead you want to present some idea of True Christians vs False Christians to No-True-Scotsman your way out of having to deal with less pleasant Christians being part of the religion, then you would communicate this much more clearly if you were to describe which version of the religion you're talking about and name it something more specific than just "Christianity".

You are focusing on one type of Christian in one place while disregarding other Christians in other places. It's like claiming Christianity is that practised in Nigeria where a gay person can not be a pastor, while ignoring say UK Christianity where the pastor's can be gay, or claiming Christianity is a tool of slavemasters while ignoring how it teaches to avoid being a slave in the first place.

There are Christians in the Republican Party who disagree with those who "stormed a nation's Capital". "Christians working for ways to turn everyone (like me) who doesn't look like them into second-class citizens" have inflated ideas about themselves. No one with a brain would like to believe manna comes from heaven, not even those who want you to be stupid like they are. Christians are taught to love their neighbours, and there's no guarantee their neighbour would look like them. And there are lots of non-Christians also, and "actual Christians doing some good stuff on the subject of poverty".

I am not presenting "some idea of True Christians vs False Christians", FemiAjani. I am more concerned about an understanding of the Christian book as opposed to what some claim is written in it, and even where it seems the god is evil, one can learn from it not to be like that instance of that God.

An example is where God is said to have looked down on Babylon and decided to "scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth" because "the whole earth had one language and the same words" and "Come together to build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth".

That's like claiming if we all on here decide to accomplish something despite our differences God would scatter us abroad from there over the face of all the earth. Show me that God and I will personally take its ignorant evil head head to the bottom of a river and bash it against a rock, because people who don't "Come together" can not build rockets to Mars, and would shout NEPA because they have not come together to say "Let there be Light".

benalvino3:
We all believe what we want, don't we?

the sanctions to cripple Russia did not work. the fact they are calling for more sanctions shows the prior ones failed to deter Russia. Hopefully, they can get it right. Ukraine is in a stalemate with Russia. The US is bleeding billions every month and Russia is bleeding millions every month. at the end of the day, china which is a bigger threat is rising.

I don't think you know what you are talking about, as usual. If you were Russian and you had to sell your football team and had your yacht and bank accounts impounded and can't play tennis or drive a Formula 1 car or travel where you used to etc, I'm sure you change your tune.

And China is not a bigger threat unless you believe you must remain the only superpower or if you ignore the economic quagmire China currently find itself in, which, when it comes to the fore, you'd be here gloating at what you'd call China's demise.

MaxInDHouse:
The one and only organization where you can find answers to these two questions is JWs!

No matter what your religion is you will only get annoyed over these two questions!

I will answer but let's see if anyone from any other school of thought can answer the two questions directly!

Have you noticed we are not all JWs here, yet we all have morals, to some extent?

I, for instance, find it immoral to promote Buddhism here, though in all honesty, that's rather because people who have not read and understood their own religious book might find it difficult to engage with the complexity of Buddhism where no gods will save you but teach you to save yourself, which is what I see in my own Holy Bible.

FemiAjani:
Neither do I. My attitude is that the religion is what the religious do, and what the book says is just words on a page unless people actually adhere to it. The practice is the religion, and everything else is just spin, trivia, or abstractions.

I have to add. The above is what made me atheistic to religion as practised in Nigeria. What made it worse was after reading the book from the beginning to the end between 9 and 12 years old, I realised those telling me to accept Christ into my life had not read the book from beginning to end and were talking rubbish.

I guess it's due to my primary education that taught me who and what and where and how and when and why, and the fact we were taught about the Greek and Roman and Egyptian gods which were unbelievable, and was not taught about Yahweh until I met it in Nigeria. The way they thought of oyinbo rats is how they saw their God.

budaatum:
When I was like really young, these mates of mine who grew up in Obanikoro Village told me rats talk. Well, even at barely 7, I was atheistic in nature, so I argued that rats don't talk. Now there were like 5 of them, so they ganged up on me calling me all sorts of names and that I know nothing, "rats talk jo!".

One day, about two years later, we were in the home of one of them and NTA was showing Tom and Jerry. "There," they said, pointing to the telly. "I thought you said rats don't talk?"

Turns out oyinbo rats do talk, silly me!

Size! I bought a 65" TV and sent it right back the very next day. The thing was humongously monstrous in my living room that it intimidated me, so I settled for a 50" instead.

Price! It was a Samsung QE50Q80A (2021) QLED HDR 1000 4K Ultra HD Smart TV, 50 inch with TVPlus/Freesat HD, Sand Carbon.

I hate it a bit because it has Netflix and Prime Video on the remote and I don't subscribe to them. Love the fact that it easily connects to my phone and laptop though.

Tamaratonye5:
Can't be good without God is an open admission that your belief in god is the only thing preventing you from killing people and stealing things.

I hope you never lose your faith, please, please keep on believing.

You have prayed for him, lol.

sonmvayina:
Where is the starting point?

Defining words, or at least coming to an understanding of what they mean.

People in Jesus time were like we Nigerians, believing what we are told instead of using our own hearts and souls and minds to ask and knock and seek for understanding.

Christians don't usually say this nor know I guess, but the so called Holy Spirit is simply a fancy way of saying your own ability to think and reason for yourself, skills that should be developed.

Same as in the Garden of Eden. God forbid the men who wrote it give Eve a brain and a mind of her own. Hence, the serpent so we don't emulate Eve and think and reason for ourselves.

benalvino3:
They are no struggling to buy what they need even if you are being told that.

Russia have never entered the market to buy western made weapons. If they want materials for weapons, they can use proxies to buy it evading sanctions. Iran use same method to sell oil.

Besides, Russia is still heavily capable as they don't use their best tech and weapons on wars like this.

China as well think it is in their best interest for Russia to be a formidable force and continues to be because a friend indeed is a friend in need.

With China around, sanction will hardly stick these days and you have nations who tries to stay in the middle like India. They are benefit from the sanctions. They still buy Russian oil for a good deal now.

While EU buys indirectly for higher cost.

You will believe what you want, and evidence will not make a difference to you.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/09/06/russia-faces-far-deeper-longer-recession-kremlin-publicly-admits/

sonmvayina:
I don't know..

Maxindhouse come and answer

Jesusjnr jump in too

You don't know?

Is that not perhaps where you should have begun?

MaxInDHouse:
If your morality is not from a SUPREME BEING do you expect your neighbour to develop his own or comply with yours?

If each person just have to develop his or her own morality how do we cohabit peacefully?

No, I don't expect my neighbour to comply with my own morality. What I can do is organise my other neighbours who share my morality and we can then impose it on our neighbours.

That's how we got thou shalt not steal, and thou shalt not murder, and thou shalt not covet thy neighbours goods, and Nairaland rules. The neighbours did not like these things done to them so they passed laws to impose it on their neighbours and their community.

Tamaratonye5:
In many passages

The passages you quoted are not about belief, but about what one does.

If I murder you. No that's a bit far. If I am rude to you I will agonise about it, and it feels like hell to me, so I try not to be rude.

Tamaratonye5:
In many passages

The entire concept of "salvation" is about not winding up eternally tortured by burning sulphur. So called "salvation" is only possible by believing the Jesus doctrines. You could end global hunger and eradicate aging and make unlimited ice cream available to everyone 24/7 and still spend eternity impaled on a spit for failing to believe in Jesus.

Any actual "salvation" of humanity will only be realized by the complete eradication of religion.

Forgive me, but I don't take the words of ignorant people (as expressed in your link as opposed to what I read in a book myself). And I don't do salvation in some imaginary after life while suffering on this very real earth. After some tell me I am going to hell for not believing, they then beg me for food. I love the fact that I can get to tell them their hunger would be salvationalised away if they believed harder, perhaps.

Last time I checked, believing does not put food on the table, nor would it save anyone from suffering on this earth, which is what I see in the teachings of Jesus. The priest and Levite both believed, but the Samaritan who was not a believer, is the one Jesus said one should go and do likewise. A version of the same parable today would use a pastor and an imam and a traditional god worshipper, with Jesus saying "Go and do as the traditional god worshipper did".

One of the most unfortunate things about the Bible was it was written when human understanding was limited. What's more unfortunate though is most don't evolve their own understanding of what they read in the Bible, and just take it literally, and that's if they read it from the beginning to the end.

Education itself used to be about believing facts. Charles Dickens parodied the idea with his "Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life", but we (not Nigeria yet, mind) have now evolved from believing facts to critically analysing what we are told. Critical thinking is even being taught in primary schools where I am.

Readers should compensate with knowledge and experience we have subsequently acquired. Jesus is even written to have given an out with his sending of the individualised Holy Spirit ministering to one.

The eradication of religion belief comes from understanding what the religious books teach. Once understood, religion has served its purpose of educating and then it dies. Or to be precise, it evolves into a new religion, though we might not call it one.

FemiAjani:
Neither do I. My attitude is that the religion is what the religious do, and what the book says is just words on a page unless people actually adhere to it. The practice is the religion, and everything else is just spin, trivia, or abstractions. And Christians who will refuse to help their neighbors and, for that matter, actively hate their neighbors (homophobes and transphobes, for example) because that's what the religion teaches them? They're part of the practice, and so how they practice the religion is part of the religion. Is that every last Christian? No. I'm not pretending that Christianity is consistently about abandoning and hating your neighbors. But let's also not pretend that it's consistently about helping and loving them, either.

We have different attitudes I guess. My attitude is that a religion is what they book says, and not what people do. The people might be taught wrong or not even bother reading the book or not even bother doing what they read in the book.

SlayerofSatan:
You still haven't answered my question. Morality is by its very nature objective. In other words, it exists outside of us. It didn't come into existence because we brought it into existence.

If morality is entirely subjective as you claim, then it would not be fair to sentence criminals to serve a jail term or even have them executed because they can simply say that they commit crimes because their own moral standards are different from everyone else.

So where do atheists get their morality from?

First, I have not claimed morality is subjective. That said, morality is somewhat subjective, which is why some countries do not find homosexuality to be immoral while some do. And yes human beings did bring morality into existence, unless you want to claim the Bible was not written by humans.

Societies objectify morality by introducing laws, and that's why a criminal serves a jail sentence. We the people have subjectively decided that certain acts, like stealing your neighbours goods, is immoral and a crime, and we have objectified this fact by writing laws punishing those who commit the acts we have decided are crimes.

As for where atheists get their morals from, please read the below again slowly if you need to. The tl:dr version is, we learn it from our parents and from our experiences. It is immoral for me to stab you with a knife because I would not like being stabbed with knives.

budaatum:
First, the ops questions are silly. Christianity, for instance, teaches to help one's neighbour instead of calling on gods to help them. It is the lesson of the Good Samaritan.

Regarding your question, from knowledge and life experience.

Atheist parents teach their children the morals of please and thank you, and society will teach the benefit of loving your neighbour, just that as some Christains find it impossible to morally turn the other cheek do some atheists struggle too.

Even Gods find it hard to be moral always, so aren't always the best to emulate.

FemiAjani:
Hi, SlayerofSatan

@budaatum

Point of correction. Christianity PROFESSES that one should help one's neighbors rather than calling on God to help them, in theory. In practice, Christianity often teaches Christians to (instead of helping) offer thoughts, prayers, and critiques about how whatever hardship the neighbor has been going through is a sign the neighbor's not right with God and they should be miserable about that in addition to being miserable due to the hardship.

I guess you need to choose between "in theory" and "in practice". I personally do not think Christianity is a in theory.

chryssanthe:
Actually, Christianity teaches that if you don't accept Jesus and believe he's the son of a god you're going to burn in everlasting hell.

Sow me where Christianity teaches "that if you don't accept Jesus and believe he's the son of a god you're going to burn in everlasting hell" please. I must have missed that.

SlayerofSatan:
Here's my question. Where do atheists get their morality from?

First, the ops questions are silly. Christianity, for instance, teaches to help one's neighbour instead of calling on gods to help them. It is the lesson of the Good Samaritan.

Regarding your question, from knowledge and life experience.

Atheist parents teach their children the morals of please and thank you, and society will teach the benefit of loving your neighbour, just that as some Christains find it impossible to morally turn the other cheek do some atheists struggle too.

Even Gods find it hard to be moral always, so aren't always the best to emulate.

Laurence Fox’s embarrassing Hunter Biden movie is a fate worse than ‘cancellation’.
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/hunter-biden-movie-breitbart-laurence-fox-gina-carano-b2160240.html

Like when one cancels oneself with one's own stupidity and ignorance.

feedthenation:
---clearly Trump is going to put these perfect nuclear documents in his library---perfectly innocent---wonder why 'they' are picking on him---

---The former head of the CIA said the nuclear documents (include info about other countries nuke) found at Trump’s resort are so secretive they are kept in a safe inside the SCIF---not just in the SCIF---in a safe inside the SCIF---

He's holding on to it in case he needs to do a Snowden. Nuclear info about other countries would be a valuable visa to certain countries when attempting to evade the US Justice Department.