₦airaland Forum

mbaemeka:
To make this your 'hard business' quips to make sense then the MOG that teach on tithes are not as greedy as you claim. Why, because they could have insisted on the 22% as stipulated by the law, yet they settled for a meagre 10%.

Actually bro, no mog, no matter how crooked can defend 22% as tithe for christians. it's not honesty keeping them from it; it's common sense and the knowledge that they'll be biting off more than they can chew if they dare.

imagine bringing Deut 14:22-29 and Deut 26:12 into the fray to demand 22%?

Gombs:
No, I think you are. Flip 90 pages back, you'd see Hagin quoting Mal 3:8, you doubt?

Hear Hagin on page 88

I've also heard preachers try to hammer Christians by quoting from Malachi chapter 3 saying that they are cursed if they don't pay tithes and give offerings. Obviously, this is not correct. While the people of Malachi's day were under the Law of Moses, the New Testament plainly declares that Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13).

Who is lying now? You or me?

No I don't.

Really? You call non tithers robbers, right? Where will a robber end up?

Ahn ahn bobo, you didn't answer me na.... Condemnation of tithing in its entirety is a nice confession from you, now my question is, "Can you show me one scripture that condemned tithing in the faintest of senses?"

Oblige me. Thanks

Something cannot stand on nothing. There'll not be need for this particular argument but for your claim that you follow Abraham to tithe (but of course rush to Moses via Malachi to ensure compliance utilizing the fear factor).

Now prove Abraham paid tithes on any thing apart from spoils of war. Then we can proceed to establishing whether we need anything condemned before we know it doesn't pertain to us.

Gombs:
Good... but we've debated this over and over again. You place yourself under a curse by robbing God, you don't have to start a new gist about that for we have done that ages ago. Never has pastor chris or my pastor forced me to tithe, they taught me, I obeyed, saw marvellous benefits and I continued.

Condemnation of tithing in its entirety is a nice confession from you, now my question is, "Can you show me one scripture that condemned tithing in the faintest of senses?"

@the bold. Hagin, whom you rever so much doesnt agree with you, do you think he's lying? do you believe non tithers are going to hell?

Can you show one scripture to prove Abraham paid tithe from anything apart from spoils of war?

Gombs:
My man, your stand is noted, but are you saying you never discoraged giving of tithes oustide the above numbered? In plain terms, are you saying you never condemned paying of tithes in its entirety?

i'm sure you saw etc after that list? the lies are actually inexhaustible and are proclaimed from pulpits everyday, everytime.

of course i've condemned preaching 'paying of tithes' as a christian doctrine in it's entirety.

P/S. Do you think its christian for oyaks, adeboye and robertson to tell those lies just to get folks to tithe?

Gombs:
Ah! Finally a breakthrough. Cc: WinsomeX, candour, Shedemidemi, BabaGnoni, mand the rest of the crew. Come and take notes o

i have told u plenty times i'm not interested in stopping you from tithing. you are free to pay 90% of your income as tithe (as some claim to do).see what transpired between you and i some days ago

Gombs:
Good..But I have decided so, so has million others, why do some guys still hunt me for it?

Candour: Who can even presume to stop your decision to tithe? Nobody has that right after all, we are not in North Korea. What these discussions are geared towards correcting are the lies, wicked manipulations and scriptural misrepresentations in 'powerful teachings' from 'renowned mog' like these below

https://www.nairaland.com/1957135/midas-touch-balanced-approach-biblical/80#28245401


Infact i must have stated the below as my motivation for engaging in these arguments a lot of times (trust you and others wont claim you've not read it in my posts before). my motivation is against the lies below

1. If you don't pay tithe, you're a robber and of course hell bound
2. If you don't pay tithe , you're cursed
3. IF you don't pay tithe, you'll be attacked by devourers like sickness, marital problems, car problems, accidents, business losses etc
4. if you don't pay tithe, you'll not be blessed by God
etc

As long as you don't threaten Christians with the above, go ahead and pay everything you have as tithe. They're yours to do with as you like

Gombs:
You can warn a Christian to stop tithing iF AND ONLY IF you have a scripture condeming tithing in its entirety. Until then, you have no right or set of rights, jurisdiction either comically, morally, theologically or arbitrarily to try and manipulate, conjure, coerce and/or lie to anyone to STOP or WARN them about paying their tithes.

is any Christian permitted to tell the following lies to manipulate, conjure, coerce, force, push or confuse Christians to pay tithes or give?

Oyakhilome

https://www.nairaland.com/393253/rhapsody-realities-daily-devotional/9#8071513

The Giving That Stands You Out – Thursday April 7, 2011 – Pastor Chris

It’s impossible for a Christian who only gives his tithes and offerings to feel like an accomplished giver, but the Bible lets us know these aren’t enough. Your tithes for example belong to God, and He expects you to give them to Him anyway. The man who does otherwise is a robber: “Will a man rob God: Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8 ).

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift. Your offering on the other hand isnt just a donation made to the Church, but a sacrifice offered to a divine being. God actually demanded for it in Exodus 23:15: “…None shall appear before Me empty-handed” (AMP).

WHY WE GIVE OUR FIRST FRUITS? (THE BENEFITS)
We are commanded to give it [Prov 3: 9-10, Ex 22: 29] By giving your first fruit, you secure and sanctify the rest of your fruits ( Rom 11: 16) We give our first fruits that the blessing of God may rest upon us ( Eze 44:30) By giving it, you demonstrate your appreciation for God and the things He has done in your life (Deut 26:10 – 11) It releases the anointing upon your life. The bible says thy presses shall burst out with new wine. New wine symbolizes the anointing ( Prov 3:9) God is delighted in our obedience to His word; for it is better to obey than to sacrifice [I Sam 15: 22] If you don’t give your first fruit, God will go after it because it belongs to Him ( Ex 4: 22 – 23) Anyone who holds back his First Fruit exposes himself to evil. As God said to Israel. [Jeremiah 2: 3]....

WAYS OF GIVING FIRST FRUITS
1. New Job: First salary package
2. New Year: First salary or first income ( for those who don’t earn a salary)
3. Old Job (Promotions) – Increase i.e. the difference between the old and new salary. (If your heart condemns you go ahead and give all. He is looking for something to multiply back to you).


https://www.facebook.com/READRHAPSODYOFREALITIES/posts/651164134943691

Adeboye

In Malachi 3:8-11, God said all His children who are robbing Him in tithes and offerings have violated His covenant, and therefore are under a divine curse. However, He says if they will restitute their ways, He will personally rebuke the devourer for their sakes and open the windows of Heaven to them and give them a blessing they will be unable to contain. There are two type of devourers – the ones sent by the devil (John 10:10) and the ones sent by God. To deal with the devourers sent by the devil, simply resist him and he will flee from you as long as you are in right standing before God. But to deal with the devourers sent by God, it is through restitution. You will have to cry to God for forgiveness and thereafter undo what made Him to send the devourers in the first place. Do you owe God in tithes, offerings, thanksgiving or vows? Ask for forgiveness and go ahead and pay what you owe. If it is in tithes, also add 20% as interest being the penalty or eating your tithes (Leviticus 27:31).

https://www.nairaland.com/1458058/open-heavens-daily-devotional-sunday

Pat Robertson

Quoting Malachi, Robertson responded, “Your husband has all these medical problems because the ‘devourer’ has not been rebuked. You need to rebuke him. You give your tithes faithfully and God said, ‘I will rebuke the devourer,’ the person that is eating up your money and eating up your health. So you want to be healthy? That’s a promise in the Word.”

https://www.nairaland.com/1541026/pat-robertson-tells-elderly-woman

Among others too numerous to mention.

do you think its a christian thing to do?

Image123:
Hahahahahahahahaha, i can't shout.

you had better not

Gombs:
You should know I was refering to the bold in jest too

Thats why you and i remain friends despite all

cheers

Gombs:
Forgive me buddy, but does NL have an archive section?

They have to....or you don't think so?

Image123:
i wasn't going to grace you with a reply but i pitied your condition yet again. You've got to be kidding or fooling around to accuse any other of searching for attention. Is it not the same Candour who walks up and down on NL looking for who will mention him? i sent in my post in the early a.m and there you were quick to reply. That has being the trend and you know it. So, we know who is not being attended to. Get professional help if you can, mba can help you if you can't afford one. i will help you ask him if you cannot. Wise men still seek Jesus.

I'm an engineer friend. a process engineer who works with process systems when everybody else has gone to sleep and i'm right at my duty post even now. I use people like you to keep awake actually. My colleagues unwind with booze and other vices, i make do with bible studies and discussions mostly online but also with colleagues here interested and NL falls into that category.

@the bolded. Keep sneaking up at night to sow tares while good men have gone to sleep, i'll be waiting

Image123:
Oh, there he is AGAIN. Brother, do you live here?

I should be asking you......considering the number of posts you've contributed to the NL archive section

Gombs:


You feel persecuted shey? Kpele

You should know i sang a song in jest friend

who will do the persecuting? you or image?

Image123:
In other words, you want me to teach you what to say a la candour stylee?

He has come again.....he has come again.....Father he has come again......Holy Ghost he has come again...

Image, Dem send you?

Image123:
Quit repeating yourself like a broken record, seek Jesus. Wise men seek Jesus.

Quit posting nonsense in your desperate search for attention like someone with a broken Psyche. Wise men who have your problem seek for the professional help they need.......or contain themselves with proper attention at home.

Image123:
My big bad was that i refused to agree to the facts that you had backsliden earlier than i should have. Remember when i told Gombs about you? That was already too late, my bad. Listen to your friend and go and seek God's pardon instead of replying moi.

You're bad and poor at everything you've set out to do on NL so much so you deserve pity.

Keep seeking the attention you so desperately need.......

nlMediator:
I like your Jesus example. If somebody preaches to large audiences and has only 20 people in his church, he can use the Jesus example to respond to those that claim that he doesn’t have a large church. Even though there may be other factors, e.g. he may have a nasty attitude, he has a legitimate claim to that excuse. But if somebody can only muster an audience of 20, say on a monthly basis, he needs to find out why people are not coming to listen to him. He has no legitimate claim to the Jesus example you gave. That’s the point you should bear in mind when you want to defend those whose blogs record only minimal visits. Tell them to see if they can increase their traffic, mindful of the fact that not all the visitors will receive their message. Encouraging people to hide under the excuse of broad and narrow way as you quoted is not right.

@the first bolded, who owns the church? the man or God? to whose glory is the size of the church? the man or God? Is the man after adding to the body of Christ or interested in smashing the record books for most prolific crowd puller? We have plenty crowd pullers in 'christiandom' who are simply dispensing poison on a massive scale and reaping handsomely in the process.

@2nd bolded, pls attack the man with the blog as much as you like, it makes no difference to me. You'll never find me make a defense for it just as you'll never find me make a defense for any denomination. There are thousands of blogs jostling for space and attention on the WWW. My defense is for the pockets of believers in all corners of the globe making up the body of Christ, not one man's project. Mathew 7:13-14 is about the body of Christ, the one true church. Not about one man's blog or denomination or social club of 'christians'.

Regarding the number of people in the churches you mentioned, I used the expression “truly saved.” Even the leaders of these churches know that not all their members are truly saved. So, my focus is on getting many people truly saved because even if we have 1 billion such people that still qualifies as narrow gate and few being chosen.

These arguments are always about size, figures etc. Forget about the ''truly saved'' story. Its always about the earthly bragging rights like ''we have more money'', ''we have more branches'', ''we have more global presence'', ''we have more political and business leaders'' etc. It's about competition bro. My focus is on getting folks to know the truth and get a true relationship with Christ that puts them in the body of Christ, not enter a relationship with an MOG or a denomination.

BTW, I do not believe that Christ Embassy ha anywhere close to a million members, let alone millions. Their largest church outside Nigeria is South Africa and last I checked, it claimed an attendance of 40,000 members. In the U.S., it may be a total of 5,000 members from the various branches at the moment. There is a lot of room to grow; that’s why we need to encourage them in their global campaign, not attack them unnecessarily.

@the bolded. Those are my exact sentiments but i decide to go with the bogus claims of the members lest i be accused of being jealous of the BLW nation. one even claimed they have 20million members worldwide on another thread. God will not ask how many members CEC has on the last day neither will he ask for that of DLBC. He's only interested in adding to his church: The one body of Christ. CEC or any other denomination is very irrelevant in these discussions. I leave squabbling over denominational identity and figures to those interested in breaking the earthly record books for most attendance or most popular or most wealthy.

You might have a million members swear affection for you but only 100 have a relationship with Christ and you might pastor 200 people and 175 are truly saved. Only God knows. God isn't interested in your loyal members, he's interested in his church:The body of Christ. Are your crowd part of that body?

The road that leads to life is indeed straight and narrow......only a few will find it says the Lord and i believe him.

Gombs:
Bobo, was it annulled? That's all I asked.

you still dey ask? for something to be annuled, means it was in operation before. I tell you again, physical circumcision was/is totally nonexistent as far as Christianity is concerned.

Gombs:
Born anglican, was outta church for 3 years, joined Catholic, did it few months...then I found rest.

ok then

Gombs:
But I did too.... you guys are robbing God. Now, don't change the tempo, in summary, are you saying circumcision was annulled together with Moses' law, in solidarity with vooks?

Good for you that you didn't break ranks with oyaks even though your bro agrees with me that it's a wrong doctrine. I'm sure even Joagbaje will disagree with you

It's not a question of solidarity bro. Circumcision of the male foreskin has nothing to do with Christianity. Absolutely Nothing.

Gombs:
Heheheheheh...pain me ke? You guys are from the same sewers of NL...from the boardroom na...I can't expect otherwise.
What intrigues me is why some folks think Abraham was an isrealite.

I'll guess it's the same reason why Mba is not too pleased Oyaks called non tithers robbers

Gombs:
Europe during the renaissance?

No, Anglican

No, during the industrial revolution

you make me laugh with your attempts to play smart. i thought you called it a certified lie? infact incase you don't know, the fact that Jews were the main promoters made it despicable to the average European. they detested Jews and anything Jewish.

see another catholic historian gracious enough to go through catholic history with respect to circumcision

http://guggiedaly..com/2014/05/why-catholics-dont-circumcise.html

edit:@the bolded, see what you said on a thread last year

Gombs:
www.forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=121898

www.saint-mike.org/library/rule/excerpts/principles_tithing.html

The first is a catholic forum on tithing

The second is the "Philosophy and Principles of Tithing
according to the Rule of St. Michael"

You lads should read it and answer whether the Catholic Church is Anti Tithing!


And Here, Catholic Churches ENCOURAGE TITHING. Chukwudi are you sure you are a catholic? I once were a catholic, I was in Legion of Mary, I knw a lot about CCRN, I know about a lot of saints, etc

And then, we were encouraged to bring in em tithes

https://www.nairaland.com/1467991/anti-tithe-churches/2

like you asked me earlier, were you confused or you just tweaked the truth a little?

Gombs:
The above bold is a certified lie.

Besides, if they don't, I am concluding they are Christians, can you name one church in Europe, any denomination that were or are against circumcision? Don't worry, I can wait. Take your time

''Historically, the Roman Catholic Church denounced religious circumcision for its members in the Cantate Domino, written during the 11th Council of Florence in 1442.[46] This decision was based on the belief that baptism had superseded circumcision (Col 2:11-12),

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm

and you said you were catholic once upon a time?

Gombs:
That was the best you could get, a statistic before the second world war? Really? Haba bobo.

The bold is shocking, [size=16pt]mare[/size] you this confused? How many times will I write to you that physical circumcision was your way of identifying with the covenant, but it was no way a keans of making one righteous?

Stop being a child my friend. I corrected that error almost immediately I posted it. Meanwhile, see the enlarged in your post, should I assume you're also confused in your haste to point out an error?

Gombs, that site talks about curcumcision practices in Europe and other places. It's not restricted to any period.

Once again, the Europeans who didnt/dont physically circumcise, are they missing out on identification with the covenant?

[quote author=Gombs post=28288235][/quote]Bro, check again. I modified that error at least 10mins ago

Gombs:
References please. Thanks. It would be great if you have any reference to ANY bible teaching Chrisrian from European culture who don't do circumcision.

There are plenty on the internet if you care to explore but the below should help

www.circumcisioninformation.com/circ_world.html

Physical circumcision has nothing to do with Christianity. Once again, see what Paul told the early Europeans who were being coerced into forced circumcision as a sign of acceptance before God

Galatians 5:6 KJV
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gombs:
Not Exactly. It did not make us right before God, but it was a sign of the covenant, it was for allngeneration. You must have also missed what I wrote

Most European cultures don't do circumcision (they might have started now), they considered it abhorrent during the early years of Christianity. In fact it was a way of smoking out Jews who might otherwise have escaped the holocaust. Does it mean the christians among them missed this sign with God?

Was Paul making a case for our physical circumcision today?

vooks:
Do we have some Christian sects teaching the NECESSITY of circumcision for believers, or some spiritual merits of the same?

None that I know of or have heard of. Circumcision holds no promise of financial rewards like tithe like you observed earlier.

Gombs:
There was nothing like covenant of circumcision. Thanks

Fine and correct. The covenant with Abraham was sealed with the token of circumcision. So let me rephrase it. The token of circumcision of the foreskin which God required of Abraham and which Israel prided themselves in is absolutely useless to Christianity

Galatians 5:6 KJV
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gombs:
Bobo, answer me in plain terms...was the covenant annulled?

Read my post to Goshen for further instructions. Thanks

The covenant of circumcision God made with Abraham has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. Hear Paul

Galatians 5:6 KJV
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

In Christ, the physical circumcision which God ordered of Abraham and which Israel prided themselves in is totally useless in Christ.

What is subsisting is the promise God made to Abraham when he called him which was re-echoed in Galatians 3.

Gombs:
Galatians 3:18 did not agree with you. Thanks.

See the covenant of circumcision God made with Abraham. Note the bolded portions

Genesis 17:10-14 KJV
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. [11] And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. [12] And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. [13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. [14] And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Is that the same covenant you're under today? Is that the same covenant Paul was promoting in Galatians?

vooks:
I find it decidedly convenient that of all pre-Mosaic practices, Christ Embassy sticks with tithing. They will not hesitate to remind you that it is an 'eternal principle' simply because it predates Moses. The reason is obvious, it is one doctrine from which they stand to immensely gain financially. How does circumcising males help their coffers? What about bloody animal sacrifices? They'd stain Oyak's Benny Hinn-esque wardrobe.

@the bolded, pls forget all the lies. That is a later day diversion because folks have become wiser about it. Hear from the head honcho. He knows the tithe he preaches has nothing to do with Abraham but Moses

From Rhapsody of Realities

https://www.nairaland.com/393253/rhapsody-realities-daily-devotional/9#8071513

The Giving That Stands You Out – Thursday April 7, 2011 – Pastor Chris

It’s impossible for a Christian who only gives his tithes and offerings to feel like an accomplished giver, but the Bible lets us know these aren’t enough. Your tithes for example belong to God, and He expects you to give them to Him anyway. The man who does otherwise is a [size=16pt]robber[/size]: “Will a man rob God: Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8 ).

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift. Your offering on the other hand isnt just a donation made to the Church, but a sacrifice offered to a divine being. God actually demanded for it in Exodus 23:15: “…None shall appear before Me empty-handed” (AMP).

This is the true position. CEC believes a non tither is a ROBBER and you and i know where a robber will end up, don't we?

nlMediator:
Thanks for making my point. Let anyone feel free to point out where WOFers were claiming that Jesus WILL return in their days. What I've seen christians - WOF or not - do over the years is to look at events around us and think the end is near. Sometimes, it evokes and invokes a sense of urgency that seeks to take the message of salvation to many people to save them before the opportunity is permanently lost. To make a false claim about WOF to satisfy some fanciful thoughts has become a pastime of some.

In terms of impact, you miss the point. First off, Islam does not come into the discussion. They do not win souls by preaching. They're growing by force, bribes or births. Second, Islam confirms that multitudes will choose the broad way. Choosing the broad way is different from widely disseminating your message.

At no time did Jesus want us to get the message only to a few people. He said the message will be preached to the end of the world before the end comes. Unlike those who link small crowds coming to hear them preach to Jesus' statement about the narrow way, Jesus said no such thing. His own ministry confirmed it. He had thousands coming to hear Him. His disciples got the message to thousands. They did not hide under any narrow way excuse. If your message is not getting to many, e.g., nobody is visiting your blog, it's not necessarily because narrow is the gate. It could be your message is nothing or you do not know how to get it across.

Narrow way simply means that you'll get to many, but only a few will accept. So, you can't use that as an excuse for explaining why you're not getting to many first and jumping to the fact that they did not choose you. Also, what is the definition of "few" and "narrow"? In a world of 7 billion and counting, 1 billion truly accepting Jesus is less than 20 percent. That's narrow, as it leaves 80 percent out, yet we're not anywhere near that. Or you guys think it's only narrow when only 1 percent accepts?

Finally, if you guys did not care about getting your message to many, why are you at NL that has a large audience? Why not find a small Naija-oriented site that reaches a few hundreds? That sure is narrow.

@the 1st bolded, do you have anybody who has remotely insinuated that Christ wants the message restricted?

@the 2nd bolded, the Catholics claim a population of 1.2billion worldwide, do you think they're all lost? CEC claims a population in millions, do you think they're all saved?

@the 3rd bolded, once again I ask. Can you point to one moniker that has remotely suggested that christians shouldnt spread the gospel message to the whole world? Mention it so i can join you in correcting the person.

I've always used the case of Christ to buttress his statement below

Matthew 7:13-14 KJV
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Christ preached to thousands yet only 500 were around just before his ascension and only 120 waiting in the upper room for the holy spirit, do you think he was a failure?

Rev Sun Myung Moon founded the unification church in the Koreas (a mega church) and also prospered greatly whilst at it, is/was he also doing the work of the kingdom?