₦airaland Forum

Katsumoto:
Dude,

You need to stop being so negative. You are focusing on who made money from the GM deal and the lower salaries of workers. Would you prefer for GM to have gone down, with approximately 300,000 workers consequently losing their jobs? Instead GM is leaner and meaner today with approximately 210,000 workers. GM, and the remaining detroit giants have had low productivity and tight margins for years because they have been looking after their workers (they are dealing with legacy costs such as health care, pension, etc). That model is no longer sustainable; US car firms could not compete against the Japanese and Korean firms under the former model. They have had to restructure and respond to competition. GM has adopted the same model as Ford but Ford did not receive any government bailout.

At the end of the day, all human beings are not equal and those with the ability to exploit the system will make money. That is the capitalism. I am not about to go into the merits and demerits of capitalism, socialism, and communism with you because I know you are anti-capitalism and there is no point in having that debate with you. Lets just agree to disagree on that.

Of course im focusing on who made money from the GM bail out because the public were led to beleive that the restructuring process was being undertaken in order to save jobs, the fall out of the restructuring process were massive layoffs and cuts in benefits and wages with wall street bankers making millions of dollars in fees from the restructuring, how does that square with the earlier promise to tax payers that jobs would be saved?

Unless you are a beneficiary of these massive pay outs and bonuses i see no reason why you should be vehemently defending such a corrupt system.

You need to bear in mind that no-one is safe from these mass layoffs which are currently taking place, today it may be GM workers tomorrow it might be a firm or corporation that you work for. Perhaps when you find yourself being laid off or asked to agree to a 50% slash to your salary or pension you might start looking at things differently.

i didnt really know the brother, but my heart goes out to his family.

i hope they are able to bear his loss with fortitude.

Just to add to my earlier point about AIG - its now known that AIG appropriated billions of  dollars of american tax payers money and used this money to redeem credit default swaps (insurance contracts) which it had sold to Goldman Sachs but had failed to redeem due to its imminent bankruptcy.  

These CDS's had been bought by Goldman Sachs in order to  protect them in  the event that the sub prime mortgages that they speculated on defaulted.

When the subprime mortgages defaulted , Goldman Sachs tried to get AIG to redeem these CDS's, AIG was unable to do so and the govt decided to step in and give  AIG an initial sum of $85 billion

The $85 billion was insufficient to pay off all its debts, the govt then gave it an additional $100 billion which was then used to pay off Goldman Sachs and other creditors.  Goldman Sachs then went on to record massive profits based on this assistance that it received.

All of these transactions were done with the collaboration of the federal reserve - timothy geithner was the president of the new york branch of the federal reserve at the time all this happened, he is now US treasury secretary.

The Fed Reserve even tried to block the disclosure of this information from the public.  

Now tell me how any of this has in any way beneffited ordinary american tax payers.

Oh and this is a link of former Fed Reserve president timothy Geithner being grilled by congress on the role he played in the AIG coverup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VTWtcyayMQ

Katsumoto:
The bailout was intended to save american jobs and they succeeded in that objective. If AIG, CitiGroup, GM, etc were allowed to fail, many more Americans would have been out of work. On the plus side, many of those companies have since returned the funds given to them with a profit for the tax payer. GM launched the biggest IPO in US history 2 weeks ago and it was over-subscribed even at $33 a share. Citigroup and Goldman Sachs have both returned govet funds with interest.

Perhaps you can explain to me why it has since been disclosed that the New York branch of the Federal reserve tried to prevent the contents of the bail out agreement between the govt and AIG from being disclosed to the public.  

If it were that the bail out money given to AIG had been used for legitimate means why the secrecy?  

GM was able to launch the highest IPO in history because wall street investment bankers oversaw the stripping and restructuring of GM so that they could make huge profits from the downsizing process.

Obama set up an auto task force last year which was headed up by his friends on wall street. This resulted in the laying off of  thousands of workers and the closing of assembly plants around the world.  This is still an ongoing process and by the time the restructuring process is completed over 30,000 people will have lost their jobs at GM.  Under the new GM managment workers have been asked to agree to huge wage and benefits cuts.  

Its for this reason that GM was able to make the huge profits it made recently, the IPO you mentioned also was as a direct result of the systematic mass layoffs, wage slashes and benefit cuts imposed on employees.  The only beneficiaries of this massive windfall are wall street bankers who have made millions of dollars in fees and GM executives, so im at a loss as to how this should be seen as something commendable.

All new jobs being created at GM are on salaries that are so low , the new employees won't even be able to afford the cars that they will be manufacturing.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=559737.msg7278168#msg7278168 date=1291592978]@cap28,

I am tired of going back and forth with someone who clearly cannot read or at best has a problem understanding simple english. You have accused me of supporting bailouts when I have consistently opposed it. Please point out anywhere in my post where I called for bailouts. And please shove it if you can't.

I have just now learnt of the death of bawomolo and I am really tired and feeling sick to my stomach. I do not have the strength to continue to suffer fools.[/quote]If ever there was a fool its you my friend, you have consistently avoided answering a simple question and have continued to duck and dive in order to cover up your ignorance.

Dummy go back and re-enrol in your adult education evening classes, tax breaks for the rich and tax payer funded bail outs are a form OF GOVERNMENT WELFARE if you support tax breaks for anyone earning over £250,000 and dont support the other (bail outs) that shows you are complete id.iot with no understanding of what govt funded welfare is, both acheive the same objective. This is basic common sense here.

now goodbye and good riddance.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=559737.msg7278003#msg7278003 date=1291590028]@cap,

Up until about 2 years ago, I owned 4 properties here in the US. I have close family members and friends that work in the mortgage industry. I have now withdrawn virtually all the money I have in the stock markets with only a few thousand dollars. Do I know anything about Subprime mortgages and investment products derived from them? The answer is experientially (I hope you know the meaning of that word). As for you, I can tell all you know about them is whatever you may have dug up on wikipedia and allied websites.

And just as I said before, I will not waste my time trying to explain complex financial products to someone who does not know the difference between a tax cut and a bailout.[/quote]hahahaha - what has your "owning" 4 properties in the US got to do with anything?

Up until the recent sub prime mortgage crash obtaining a mortgage in the UK or america was about the easiest thing to do in the world - whats the big deal about taking out 4 loans - absolutely nothing, but i see youre one of those nigerians in america who think theres something great about being lumbered with 4 massive loans for the rest of your life. Unless you actually paid cash for those properties (which i doubt)  then whats the big deal? 

by the way, i noticed you referred to your properties in the past tense were you a recipient of one of those sub prime mortgages?

The reason you have refused to explain to me the difference between a bail out and a tax cut is because you do not know, i am making you eat humble pie and your having a difficult time swallowing it.
You have spouted all these pseudo economic arguments without being able to even explain to me why you made your earlier statement about protecting people who you refer to as the most productive members of society.  I highlighted an area - investment banking - in which you pretend to be an authority on, and i have asked you to set out for me why investment bankers should be protected by the us govt by way of bail outs and now tax breaks and all you have done is get defensive on me, oh well i guess im going to have to accept that you are really just another NL poster who just loves pretending to sound intelligent. sorry pal you don't fool me.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=559737.msg7277699#msg7277699 date=1291586200]@cap28,
You are a lost cause aint you? You don't even know the basics and you are asking me to lecture you on the advance. This is like asking to do a Doctorate when you don't even have a first degree.
So who is rich if I may ask? I can see you still have trouble distinguishing between tax cuts and bailouts. Come back here after you can tell the difference between the two![/quote]no im just having fun laughing at your stu.pidity, you are defending a system which you do not understand and which you do not benefit from.  Why would a nigerian immigrant like you strenuously defend a system which you are not benefitting from? I can understand a high income earner jumping to the defence of Obama's austerity measures and tax breaks for the rich but you do not fall into that category.  The tax cuts are to be extended for only those earning in excess of £250,000 - do  you fall into that category?  I think not.

do you not understand that that will mean that people like you will be paying a higher proportion of their earnings in tax than someone who earns more than £250,000 per annum or more. 
only dummies slavishly follow and even agree with policies which are of no benefit to them.

by the way i take it that you do not understand what those investment products are hence your defensive stance, i was testing you to see if you could explain how they are productive as you earlier claimed that money should not be taken away from the productive members of society up till now you still can not explain to me how investment products contribute productively to society, you have confirmed my suspicion that you are just another wanna be economist.

Oh by the way what IS the difference between a tax cut and a govt bail out -  i await your enlightened response with bated breath 

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=559737.msg7274079#msg7274079 date=1291523210]@Cap28,

I think you are the one that is badly in need of that crash course in Economics 101. It will be fool-hardy for me to be explaining investment products to someone who does not know the difference between a tax cut and a bail out. That politicians sometimes use the terms interchangeably to achieve a political end does not make them the same. Go figure!!!![/quote]ha ha you make me laugh - why are you shying away from answering my question?

let me try again, what is productive about a CDS, SIV or sub prime mortgage?

also why do you support tax cuts for the rich but do not realise that the $3trillion bail out (american tax payer money) was also a form of welfare given to undeserving greedy rich leeches?

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=559737.msg7273922#msg7273922 date=1291517472]@cap28,
It will be good to understand what is being said before you go off tangent making rather baseless comparisons. At what time did I ever condone welfare for the rich? I was actually contemplating going in the same direction you did but I just didn't want additional whining from Pres-elect about people going off topic.

In any case, how can you compare tax cuts (which I support) to bail outs (which I don't)? Tax cuts is asking people who make money to keep more of that money so that they can re-invest it to make more money and jobs which drive the economy. Bail outs on the other hand is subsidizing failure and promoting risky behavior. I support the former and not the latter.

So please understand what you read before suggesting what others need to learn! Capish!!!![/quote]this is what you said in your previous post:

So you are of the opinion that the best way to grow this economy is to take money away from the productive sector and give it to the leeches?  I'm sorry, but nothing in my educational background, life experience or common sense will make me agree with the faulty logic you guys present.  I guess unlike giving tax cuts and incentives to the productive people who can create jobs, you must agree with Nancy Pee-losi who said the best way to grow the economy is to hand out unemployment checks  .  We cut down the deficits by borrowing money to hand out unemployment checks  .  That is the Democrat way out of this recession.  While it takes Pee-losi to say such a thing, it takes a complete not-so-smart person to believe it  .

Tax cuts for the rich and bail outs amount to the same thing - welfare for the rich. 

You are confused, on the one hand you say you dont beleive in bail outs and on the other you say you believe in tax cuts - they both acheive the same thing ie they put large sums of money in the hands of undeserving leeches albeit rich leeches.

You are blindly being brainwashed into beleiving that its only poor people who receive welfare.

If you dont beleive in money being taken away from the most productive sector  and being given to leeches then you should not be in support of Obama's lopsided policy of giving welfare to the rich whilst simultaneously cutting numerous jobs in heavy industry and laying off thousands of workers. 

I asked you what is productive about credit default swaps, derivatives, sub prime mortgages and structured  investment vehicles and you havent answered the question, these are the type of products that the "productive" investment banks were speculating on - can you explain why these products are useful to the american economy?

The proposed tax cuts which Obama intends to extend will benefit the rich much more than the poor, why reward the very people who are responsible for the current economic crisis that we are in with even more money?

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=559737.msg7262538#msg7262538 date=1291350571]@Emeka,

I can see you are one of those who try to feel important and smart by claiming others are not as knowledgeable as you are. If it'll help your ego, I will not ask you to desist from it. Afterall, nothing you say takes away anything from me. I am very comfortable in my skin, my mind and my spirit.

So you are of the opinion that the best way to grow this economy is to take money away from the productive sector and give it to the leeches? I'm sorry, but nothing in my educational background, life experience or common sense will make me agree with the faulty logic you guys present. I guess unlike giving tax cuts and incentives to the productive people who can create jobs, you must agree with Nancy Pee-losi who said the best way to grow the economy is to hand out unemployment checks . We cut down the deficits by borrowing money to hand out unemployment checks . That is the Democrat way out of this recession. While it takes Pee-losi to say such a thing, it takes a complete not-so-smart person to believe it .[/quote]Jeez this guy is so clueless its painful to read his posts, first of all the only leeches that readily come to mind with regard to the american economy are the investment banks like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup and many others who received THREE TRILLION DOLLARS IN AMERICAN TAX PAYERS MONEY FOR CAUSING THIS VERY ECONOMIC RECESSION THAT AMERICA IS CURRENTLY BATTLING.

IF THAT ISNT LEECHING OFF THE GOVT I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS.
BY THE WAY CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME HOW CORPORATE DEFAULT SWAPS, DERIVATIVES AND SUB PRIME MORTGAGES ARE PRODUCTIVE TO THE AMERICAN ECONOMY OR ANY ECONOMY FOR THAT MATTER

I think you desperately need a crash course in economics 101 - how does giving welfare to the rich grow an economy??

Also if you close down businesses, lay off staff and outsource jobs to the third world dont you think the least that you owe your jobless masses is an unemployment cheque??

You only have to look at how Obama handed $3 trillion dollars of US tax payers money to wall street on the advice of  henry paulson former CEO of goldman sachs and former federal reserve president timothy geithner to understand where he is coming from. 

By the way nobody knows what these banks actually did with all of this money as they refused to give an account of what it was used for to the american tax payers.

What i find amazing though is the fact that Obama dealt with the auto industry in a much harsher manner.
He set up an auto task force and appointed his friends on wall street, (the same guys who caused the financial meltdown in the first place !!!!)to oversee the "restructuring" of major motor manufacturers like GM and Chrysler.  This resulted in thousands of job cuts.

Am i the only one who has come to the conclusion that Obama goes out of his way to favour his super rich friends while treating ordinary working people as if they are expendable?

Now to add insult to injury Obama intends to extend  tax cuts for the rich whilst simultaneously imposing wage cuts, mass unemployment , cuts in health care, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid on the working poor.

When are people going to wake up and understand that Obama does not represent the interests of  ordinary working people but that of the super rich.  Ive noticed that some people on here actually think there's a difference in policy between the republicans and the democrats - open your eyes, they both serve the same master - if you want to know who is really running america look no further than the banking cartels and the multinational corporations.

why would anyone describe Obama as weak - Obama is a wall street puppet, who is doing exactly what his backers want him to do, the highest donors to his presidential  campaign were some of the biggest investment banks in america, jp morgan chase, goldman sachs, citgroup, and morgan stanley.
These are the same corporations which received millions of dollars of american tax payers money in bailouts therefore why would anyone describe Obama as a weak candidate.  He is merely carrying out his paymasters instructions.

Many people voted Obama in without even knowing who he was and what his policies were, you only have to look at members of his cabinet to understand whose interests he represents.

Obama does not represent the ordinary american but the super rich financiers and major corporations in america, the good thing about him though is that unlike George Bush he uses deception and charm to hoodwink people into beleiving that he stands for change.

I understand unemployment in america is now officially 10% and unofficilally 15% and yet the recession has still not run its full course.

archive:
Ok I agree with what you have said cap but do you think that there is anyway to promote unity. I remember watchin a don on how the romans united the various english tribes and got them to work together as one. This was a turning point in developing england.

the only way to promote unity in nigeria is for all nigerians to recognise that we are all victims of the same people who are destroying nigeria, the ordinary nigerian man on the street has a common enemy and that enemy is the ruling elite who have hijacked the resources of nigeria and are using these resources as if they are their personal property.

the way forward for nigeria is for a grass roots movement to come forward which will be willing to unite across different ethnic groups and work as a unified and organised movement, the goal being to get rid of the current ruling elite which has destroyed nigeria.  this is the only viable option for progress in nigeria today, the current system of governance is so corrupt that there is no way nigeria can ever progress with people like that in power, there has to be a complete overhaul of the current system.

archive:
I'm replying on my phone so I can't type as much as I would like but I would just like to say to the person who quoted me - yes I get it I really do. I know america is a bully and certain leaders who don't fall in line get dealt with. Suddam Hussein anyone? BUT this is still no excuse for the state of the country. Yes N.Korea is a big scary dictatorship but you know what? The people are fed. The infrastructure is there.
Leaders a re corrupt. We know this. But in most countries there is still a basic sense of responsiblity for their people. Why not in Africa? Why not play the game of the bully if you must, but at the very least look after your own?

America is more than just a bully - its an empire.

Empires have just one goal - appropriation of wealth  and resources of other countries for themselves, the US's role in the world is to perpetuate and consolidate its position as world super power end of story, they have no positive agenda towards africa or nigeria except to exploit africa's natural resources.

Having said that you are right in saying that nigeria should provide basic services to its people, here we have a nation which makes billions in oil revenue annually but blatantly refuses to improve the standard of living of its own people, basic services such as constant electricity, affordable housing, health care services, affordable food , adequate infrastructure is what nigeria has been incapable of providing to its citizens for decades.

Given the amount of revenue that nigeria has made from oil exploitation its indeed a tragedy that nigeria can not provide any of these.


Sadly i cant see any change happening anytime  soon because nigeria is a divided nation in which our leaders use our ethnic differences as a tool to keep people divided and in a state of permanent confusion.

Tribalism is used for divide and conquer purposes, our leaders pit different tribes against each other in order to perpetuate themselves in power, there is no unified group of people in nigeria coming together to try and move the country forward.  Instead what you have are gangsters in power who have completely detached themselves from the ordinary nigerian man on the street and who do not see nigeria as their nation or a nation worth fighting for, they have no vision or long term positive goal for nigeria.

archive let me give you an example of a country that challenged the US's economic control over their economy.

In 1954 the CIA decided to overthrow a democratically elected head of state in a south american country known as Guatemala.  This man's name was Jacobo Arbenz.

What was this man's crime?  he tried to implement land reform policies which would have resulted in millions of acres of agricultural land being taken away from a powerful american multinatinational company known as United Fruit and returned to the rightful owners ie the peasant farmers who relied on this land for their livelihood.

what happened to  this man - he was denounced as a communist threat by the US state dept and overthrown in  a CIA managed coup d'etat, he was then replaced with a puppet dictator who returned this land back to United Fruit.

this man arbenz who wanted to help the poor in his country was victimised and forced out of his own country by the US govt, he ended up dying in exile in mexico.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbd5CTQCXto&feature=related

archive:
of course they were trained and of course americans are puppet masters BUT it is still in our hands to cut off the strings. many asian countries don't have the problems african countries are dealing with because they know how to work the system. the system is corrupt, is manipulative but don't blame everything on 'the white man'. by doing so we are calling ourselves silly

www.thenigerianarchive.

you don't get it, nigeria is not militarily or economically powerful enough to cut off ties with the US or any other european nation for that matter.  There are a long list of countries who have been isolated and economically blockaded by the US and europe because they failed to fall in to line: Cuba, North Korea, Iran , Zimbabwe, Haiti to name a few and they are paying the price for it to date.  Those asian countries you mentioned are mainly client states who operate puppet govts, countries like indonesia are client states of the US and other european nations, they implement economic reforms which favour foreign investors and create mass poverty for their indigenous peoples, countries like indonesia and thailand run sweat shops filled with child labourers who manufacture cheap goods for US multinationals like nike, disney and other multinationals.  many workers in those countries live in urban shanty towns and work 24 hour shifts on a daily basis.

You are not seeing the bigger picture the US is militarily the most powerful nation on the planet and can force nations  to comply with its demands, failure to go along with their requests usually results in coup detats against stubborn regimes or in extreme cases military attack.
In the case of nigeria our leaders are not even patriotic enough to take a stand against the west, they really don't give a shi.t about nigeria and the people in it, their main concern is lining their own pockets, this makes it easier for western nations to exploit and control us because they know our leaders will never stand up and fight for the progress of the nation.  With other nations like cuba, north korea, haiti and libya you have nationalist movements within these countries which actually challenge western control.  Our so called leaders have no interest in nigeria or its people and are quite happy for the west to come in and ra.pe our economy, provided they get a piece of the cake.

Amhatu:
[size=7pt]

@cap28, that was a nice read.



I am sure our former President Umaru Musa Yar'Adua  also current President along with majority African Leaders new many years ago what this filthy Political-Military-Industrial Class & families of America are all about. It is sad the people who have alliance to the Class & families of America continue to blindly follow this filth of America (USA).

The First order of the Day whom ever is elected the President of our Country Nigeria should remove any names associated with (Clinton's or any Western criminal) from our major highways and streets in Nigeria.

Shouldn't be a wonder why we have kidnappings in our country Nigeria when foreign western criminals are promoted on street names such as Clintons whom give orders to kidnap, kill and bomb people!!! Whomever is responsible for promoting criminals on our street names need to be brought before a hearing in Abuja,help remove the street names  or any signs associated with such foreign criminals. (We don't care how old you are!!!!!) After the signs are removed the street must be prayed over and cleaned with water along with giving the street a new name.

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Thought these are more interesting articles I found below

: http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/29-11-2010/115984-wikileaks_embarrasses_us_in_espionage_leaks-0/

The part of the article that intrest me the most is: "Moreover, they were ordered to collect biometric material, including DNA and fingerprints, for diplomats from the Democratic Republic of Congo, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi."

So sad, now take a look at how savage these clowns whom have allegiance to filthy Political-Military-Industrial Class & families of America have become

[center][flash=320,240]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOshw4kIGR4[/flash]

Actual link :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOshw4kIGR4

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]


Now, Look how the filthly Political-Military-Industrial Class & families of America
have left these people of Alligience to them in the dirt

[center][flash=320,240]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umxYy2Qjpak[/flash]

Actual link :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOshw4kIGR4

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]


Finally the filthly Political-Military-Industrial Class & families of America  want to smear the  Wikileaks founders name for telling the world the truth what they are all about. So very sad indeed. The USA Empire is about to be swept into the dustbin of History.[/size]

Amhatu thanks for posting those interesting videos, im still very unsure in my mind as to how Yaraduda died and my suspicion is that the US had a hand in his demise, with regard to our current leader  Goodluck Jonathan he is a US approved puppet, he is very very comfortable with the way that the US does business and is working in collaboration with the US to exploit his own people, Jonathan and his cronies are actually on the side of our enemies.

You are 100% right in saying that the current US govt is being run by a political military industrial class, these people are the most vicious and ruthless set of (sub) humans ever to exist , they will stop at nothing  to acheive their goal of world domination, if you want to understand how they operate go back and research the JFK assassination and then you will just begin to understand who these people are and the amount of power that they wield.

The majority of ordinary american people are functional illiterates, most of them are too stupid, too selfish and too lazy to even care about what their govt is doing in their name.

some background info on Wikileaks founder Julian Assange:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange#Early_life

martinosi:
When it comes to "Military attack times tables" its not possible for even
the best analyst or expert on Geo-political affairs to predict this especially is
that person is an outsider, But Tarpley does get it right when you look
at the general specific picture

here is a link that points to that website that was banned by the USA Govt

www.americablog.com/, /us-soldiers-allegedly-trading-pictures.html -

These are Post by some of my American/Candian friends & Business Colleagues on another business forum i am a member off:

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Re: wikileaks revelation thread

Brio Said

Wikileaks is propaganda, telling us what we already know under the guise of a patriot exposing govt lies. If they wanted to shut him down they would have already. That they haven't is proof (along with massive MSM exposure) that we are supposed to read the documents and believe everything they say (specifically what a threat Iran is).

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Re: wikileaks revelation thread

honu5050 Said

Wikileaks (imo) is little more than an elaborate psy-op to (try to) give credibility to the accusations against Iran. Assange adds a rant against 9/11 conspiracy theorists and how Bin Laden is overseeing suicide bombers in Afghanistan. Incubator babies anyone?

*****************************************************

Re: wikileaks revelation thread

ErrosionOfAccord Said

If there is no dirt on Israel in this dump I'll have litle choice but to agree that wikileaks is a psy-op job

******************************************************

Re: wikileaks revelation thread

Lore Said

None of this stuff rings true. If the content is so sensitive and confidential, why have the entire Western mediaplex hype, hype, hype the daylights out of it?

Seems like junk disinformation to refresh/reinforce the mainstream Iran meme.

******************************************************

i think im gonna have to agree with you on this martinosi, the info coming out DOES seem rather tame when you think of all the atrocities that the US has been involved in worldwide since 1966, i mean where are all the destabilisation plots, coup detats against south american and african regimes and other left wing revolutionary govts.
If you look at the stuff coming out in respect of nigeria, we are yet to here anything about the US involvement in the overthrow of Murtala Muhammed which was definitely funded and backed by the CIA.
Even the overthrow of Buhari and subsequent installation of IBB is missing, well lets wait and see what else wiki leaks reveals.

martinosi:
CAP28 there is something fishy about wikileaks as i remember about 5 years ago that
their was a website/forum run by USA Soldiers that showed pictures and Video-cams
of the Iraq & Afghan war. The USA Govt closed it down within 3 months of its opening becos it was showing some gruesome things done by the USA Troops.

So really brutality in the Iraq or Afghan war is nothing new as you can go to
any "under-ground website" and see these things.

Please watch this audio interview on on KPFA as
i have come to understand via research that this Wiki-leaks issues is planned

http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/63211

you have a point, martinosi but the images of US soldiers brutalising iraqi civilians is still very damaging for the US administration who claim they are in Iraq to restore democracy.

anything is possible with regard to the US administration, remember these are the same people who assassinated their own president JFK , i therefore view everything which they are involved in with extreme suspicion.

I like Webster Tarpley, i think he knows what he's talking about and ive read his book on Obama where he accurately describes him as a manchurian candidate (puppet) of wall street, therefore there may be some truth to what he's saying. Im just going to keep my ears open and look at the information that wikileaks is disclosing, is it stuff which embarrasses the US or is it stuff which will give the US an excuse to launch their proposed illegal attack on Iran, im just waiting to see what unfolds.

here is footage of US soldiers in iraq killing innocent men, women and children in Iraq, and then laughing and joking about it.

this video was disclosed by wikileaks earlier this year, you'll never see this on any of the mainstream western news channels:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cjzRTEAnns

thank god these leaks are now coming out, i have tried to explain to various posters on here that the US are not our friends - there are so many incidents that they have been involved in around the world which demonstrate that their mission is economic and political dominance of weaker nations (by any means necessary) but our people still refuse to wake up to the reality that stares them in the face.

In the past when i tried explaining this i was dismissed as a conspiracy theorist, thank god wiki leaks is now exposing the evil that this nation has been perpetrating all over the world for decades, im really looking forward to hearing more on this. Bluetooth and Isale gan - thanks for trying to educate delusional nigerians on US imperialism and hegemony.

martinosi:
So true the point you made about the 2002 law OBJ Passed and this PIB Bill they have just passed now. How are they going to enforce it. Its not by force and if
International Oil companies do not train the Nigerian staff, who is going to train them to do the Jobs that require "In depth Techincal Know How"

In order to enforce the supreme court decision of 2002  the FGN would have to revise the previous ratios under which oil revenue was previously being allocated, so instead of the FGN siphoning off monies into various ghost accounts BEFORE allocation of the net proceeds to the states and local govts,  allocation of the revenue would have to be made with the gross oil revenue proceeds at federal, state and local govt level ,whether this will actually happen is another story. Also the problem is not so much the amount of money being allocated but the officials in charge of this allocation, if one state receives N1 billion naira per month in oil revenues but the whole lot goes into the pockets of the state govt officials of what use has this revised method of revenue allocation been to the people of that state?
so you can see that nigeria's problem always comes back to the issue of corruption and until we have people in office who are willing to serve and not steal we will remain stagnant.

The other thing is that the supreme court decision (under directions from OBJ) also introduced this new system where states lying adjacent to offshore oil wells can only lay claim to those wells located within a radius of 200 km of their shorelines  -  the objective being  to prevent various oil generating states from receiving additional revenue from these wells - that indicates to me that the federal govt are intent on holding on to the lion's share of the oil revenues, again a sign that they are not interested in the development of nigeria as a nation but merely in diverting as much of nigeria's revenue into more ghost accounts for onward transmission to swiss bank accounts.  In fact the northerners have already started quarreling with GEJ over 9 offshore  oil wells which he allocated to bayelsa state in breach of the 2002 supreme court declaration:

http://www.africancrisis.co.za/Article.php?ID=85410&

The PIB's main focus seems to be to generate higher taxes and royalties from international oil companies which is not a bad thing in principle, however as you well know the  proceeds will not be used for the economic development of the nation and its people but will again be diverted into the pockets of these same corrupt public officials.

your question about foreign operators not training nigerian staff is such an important question, i was reading some articles about exchange of technical know how in the oil industry in nigeria and came across this article:

http://www.punchontheweb.com/Articl.aspx?theartic=Art201004232364723

apparently GEJ recently enacted legislation known as the Nigerian Oil and Gas Industry Content Development Bill 2010 -i think this bill is supposed to allow for nigerians to be involved in all aspects of the oil and gas sector - in areas such as ownership of service companies, equipment, personnel and execution of jobs.

If the law is enforced and adhered to - it will definitely be a step in the right direction, but again when we are talking about nigeria things tend not to pan out in accordance with the rule of law, i will read up more on this legislation.

Sagamite:
When you were conjuring this, you honestly, deep down in your heart, thought for a fraction of a second that I would read any post of yours of this length?

You must really be very dumb!!!

Mate, I don't read most of your posts. I don't have time to waste. I don't waste my time on gabbage. Like yours, you will not see me read any of the long gabbage Becomerich pours out. You and Becomerich are in the same mental state to me.

The longer your post is, the closer to zero chance I would read it.

This is what I normally do with your post:

1) Scan it.

or

2) Read the first 3 sentences to see if that day was a good mental day for you.

I did not read this junk. I saw myself quoted and looked at the length and said "Hell No" and just quoted and gave you this reply. If you want me to read your post, if we are not already in along debate, it is advisable you make sure it is not more than 2 paragraphs, then you have a 50-50 chance I will scan it.

The last one you put down before this addressed to me, I did (2), and felt you were mentally unbalanced and just replied "You are reetarded", I swear to God. The beginning was junk, why bother read the rest?

saggy i see you are back in your demented chimp mode again, that brief moment of sanity did not last long at all did it? now what ?  did you take my advice a few posts back when i recommended anger management classes, doesnt sound like it - try breathing exercises

Sagamite:
Saying it is futile and irrelevant to state it is not sane to compare a country with 150m people that produces 1.8m barrels/day with a country with 1.4m people that produces 2.3m barrels/day is the edifice of moronic-ity. That is as dumb as saying a man that there is no difference between a man that earns N23m a year who has a wife and 2 kids and a man that earns N18m a year that has 40 wives, 15 concurbines and 340 kids. DUMB!

Nigeria's population is a huge problem and a time-bomb that is as critical and pertinent as corruption.

Obasanjo's excuse that nigeria's huge population limits the filtering down effect of oil revenue to the nigerian populace is a disgraceful lie.

First of all revenue generated from oil is transferred into the federation account - monies in this account are then allocated to the various states in accordance with the following criteria:  equal shares per state, population, social development, land mass, and revenue generation. Therefore each state SHOULD be receiving its share of oil revenue in direct proportion to the number of people that reside in that state . 

Obasanjo fails to mention that during the military era (pre 1999) various deductions were  made from the gross proceeds of oil revenues BEFORE THE monies even started filtering down to the nigerian populace.

For example an initial deduction known as a first charge would be made from nigeria's gross oil revenues - this money would then be placed under direct  federal govt control - where was this money going and what did the govt do with it?

Okay after these "deductions" the fed govt would be left with the balance which would then be placed in the federation account and then guess what FURTHER deductions  would again be made from this figure and additional monies would again be diverted into a "special fund account" - what was this  money for and where did it go?

After all of the above deductions the net proceeds would then be  shared between federal, govt, state and local govts respectively with the fed govt keeping approximately 70% of the net proceeds for itself.

I understand that the supreme court ruled in 2002  that deductions such as first charges and special charges which were made from the gross proceeds are now illegal, the situation now is that the net proceeds after an initial deduction which now has to be given to oil producing states will now have to go into the federation account and be shared according to the following ratios: federal govt - 47.3% state govt - 32.7  and local govt 20%.

As if this whole situation wasnt convoluted enough Obasanjo decided in 2002 that any revenue generated from off shore oil blocs lying adjacent to oil producing states would be regarded as revenue accruing to the FGN only thereby BLOCKING further allocation of oil revenue to the oil producing regions.

Now my question to you is this - if Obasanjo claims that high population is the reason that oil revenue is not tricklling down to the entire populace why would he insist that oil wells located adjacent to the oil producing regions remain the property of the FGN and not the property of the adjoining states?

The bottom line is that systemic corruption makes a complete nonsense of whatever method is used to distribute oil revenue in nigeria, it doesnt really matter how the monies are distributed or what criteria is used, the major problem is that these so called public officials who have been placed in positions of authority have systematically failed the people they are supposed to be serving time and time again, your excuses therefore hold absolutely no water.

[quote author=isale_gan2 link=topic=557181.msg7243145#msg7243145 date=1291092935]1) I was kidding about the first (hotness/crux) part.  Honestly, we are so not simpatico anymore.   [/quote]thats cool -  by the way what does "simpatico" mean

2) She would not have talked to any non-African head of state like that.

i beg to differ, besides how many non african heads of state do you know who have been involved in money laundering scandals and have remained in office?  I believe that her background knowledge about Jonathan and other nigerian public officials may have  coloured her perception of him and influenced her manner

3) Here's another clip that was linked to the one in the opening post.  Amanpour is as tough as any journalist and she didn't need to be obnoxious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a8-MNnC15g&NR=1
Your gal is just rough around the edges.  Sorry.   

Not at all her speech and manner were sufficiently respectful, the fact that she did not give him an easy ride does not mean she is rough around the edges.

4) I was gonna write up a bunch more stuff but am fed up of this chick and this topic already.

anything you say sis - shall we move on swiftly to another topic then 

5-10) I like this poem by Rumi, a 13th century author, so am gonna end with that.  No reason.   I just like it is all.[

TENDING TWO SHOPS

Don’t run around this world
looking for a hole to hide in.

There are wild beasts in every cave!
If you live with mice,
the cat claws will find you.

The only real rest comes
when you’re alone with God.

Live in the nowhere that you came from,
even though you have an address here.

That’s why you see things in two ways.
Sometimes you look at a person and see a cynical snake.

Someone else sees a joyful lover,
and you’re both right!

Everyone is half and half,
like the black and white ox.

Joseph looked ugly to his brothers,
and most handsome to his father.

You have eyes that see from that nowhere,
and eyes that judge distances,
how high and how low.

You own two shops,
and you run back and forth.

Try to close the one that’s a fearful trap,
getting always smaller. Checkmate,
this way. Checkmate that.

Keep open the shop
where you’re not selling fishhooks anymore.
You are the free-swimming fish.

lovely poem, and very insightful, but there must be a reason why it appeals to you.

ill come back to you on the other post shortly.

take care

Quote from Sagamite

Example was when she was looking for headline grabbing when she asked him if he would take responsibility for violence breaking out. That is just bad journalism, not really about attitude.

At 5.32, when she was asking "you represent what", it was blatantly condescending. Yes, he might not have HEADLINED what he stood for succinctly but he did provide alot of information about what he wants to achieve when she first asked, then she had the audacity to talk to him like if she was his older sister, questioning her wayward teenager junior brother. If he did not answer her question, I would understand, but he did IN DETAIL, he just did not initially HEADLINE it. Worse still, all the while he was talking so civilly to her and like if they are on the same level.

Also check out her bridgings when moving to the next question, she always pauses in a condescending manner. For example when she said:

2.22 - "I want to look forward now". Her facial expression after that statement was condescending.

6.06 - "Lets move on and talk about corruption". Her facial expression after that statement was condescending. Then within his first sentence to answer the question, she almost cut him off without listening to what he was about to say (6.31)

7.19 - "I want to talk about the Niger Delta". Her facial expression after that statement was condescending. And then look at her face when looking at him answering the question (7.36). Pompously looking like "You are going to tell me thrash".

Sagamite it appears as if the problem you have with Ms Sesay is her confident manner and demeanour , i take it you do not feel comfortable around confident, attractive and successful women, that is actually a problem that you will have to come to terms with,  if you dont like seeing attractive confident women interviewing nigerian politicans i suggest you tune off whenever any of them are on tv  because those are usually the type of women that are employed by the western corporate media.
Perhaps you could launch a campaign for the nigerian tv  presenter Mo Abudu to become the official interviewer of all nigerian politicians so that you dont feel threatened?

what you seem to be doing here is projecting your insecurities on to a woman who clearly knows her stuff, i think women like this make you feel very inadequate.  Your insecurity becomes even more obvious when you refer to Jeremy Paxman as pure class  - didnt you see what he did to Condoleeza Rice on newsnight? there was nothing classy about that interview, you then go on to describe Bill Oreilly's disrespectful grilling of Obama as a good interview, when it was clear to everyone who watched it that O'reilly was treating Obama  as if he was hired help, the same things that you have been whining about with regard to Isha is exactly what douche bag O'reilly was guilty of with regard to Obama - and yet your description of that interview merely referred to it as  " one in which tough questions were asked".  

Im sure if i post a link of Rush Limbaugh insulting Obama or Glen Beck calling Obama a racist you'll probably describe Limbaugh and Beck as the creme de la creme in the field of journalism.

Oh boy ive listened to you whine on and on and i think ive had just about enough, like i said, you know the drill if you dont like the calibre of interviewer, change the channel.

buzugee just to add to my earlier post -im not an economist so i couldnt give you a definitive answer on that but the UK govt could start with closing down or allowing to fail banks and other large financial institutions which engage in this sort of activity.  After all they are the ones who were responsible for putting us in this mess in the first place , arrest and jail the criminal banksters who gambled billions of pounds on speculative trading on worthless subprime mortgages, derivatives and other junk and appoint a  financial regulator who actually has powers of enforcement not some toothless bulldog like the FSA.

buzugee:
strong points. so what do you think is the solution to the problem ? vote out the cons ? its funny about britain. the cretins in that country all wanted to vote in the cons because they were tired of immigrants. now that they got what they wished for, they are protesting on the streets be careful what you wish for. its like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer. you do more damage than good.

well i think the socialist workers party, students union groups and other far left organisations are preparing for a major show down with the conlib govt.  Dont forget that the far left fought and successfully kicked thatcher out of office in the 80's over the poll tax issue. 

I therefore think that a lot of working class brits will be gearing up for another showdown with the tories, the students have already started it off with the riots and attack on tory hq, i think more rioting lies ahead.

The thing you have to bear in mind about immigration in the UK is that it is merely a  diversionary topic,  the tories and new labour use immigration issues to divert the british public away from the real problems.  Immigrants are blamed for everything in this country, the average brit does not like immigrants and therefore political parties use anti immigration rhetoric and distorted information and figures to generate racism and immigrant bashing, its all a game, immigration is not a problem for the UK economy or they would have clamped down on it totally.

If you check the immmigration legislation of this country you will find that it has become more and more restrictive as the years go by, Thatcher introduced the Immigration and Nationality act in 1981 which restricted the movement into the UK of certain types of immigrants (blacks and other non whites) whilst simultaneously allowing the free movement in and out of the UK for other non UK immigrants such as canadians, australians, new zealanders, south africans and zimbabweans (white), immigration legislation in the UK is a race motivated policy therefore all arguments around this issue are a complete and utter waste of time and energy.

[quote author=tpia@ link=topic=556345.msg7240412#msg7240412 date=1291052250]and why do you think they were elected, and who put them there?

read between the lines.[/quote]well actually none of the 3 major parties were able to secure the required number of seats which would give them a majority in the house of commons and enable them win the election,  hence the coalition.  

That in itself speaks volumes and should indicate to you that the british people have lost faith in the current political parties running this country.