₦airaland Forum

rottennaija:
Hahaha
Besides, you are not qualified to decide my sanity.

First of all, Moses was told he is made like a God to pharaoh. Emphasis on like. He was God, but was like. A big difference.

So why shouldn't Jesus be worship? Isn't he a God? Are Gods not to be worshipped?

Besides, I'm asking, would your God accept the worship of Jesus and Himself?

Exactly why humans should be worshipped too, " Ye are GODS " , you read that right ?

rottennaija:
Points to Note 1:
Since you have accepted that the bodies of this GC is temple of God, temple of the holy spirit... (1 Co 6:15-20; 1 Co 3:16,17) That makes them members of Christ body with one spirit with him. Quite ironically, you don't realise that by being a member of Christ body, they share in his spirit, with a heavenly hope. Those words spoken in the text cited above were directed to anointed Christians and if they are applicable to the great crowd, then they are anointed Christians.

The problem with splitting one concept into many is that it create many Contradiction you cannot fathom when creating the idea. Because you are so invested in making the temple of Re 7:15 to be earthly, (bearing in mind that Christians worship in no physical temple) you are forced to conclude that the temple is the also refers to their body.

This is contradict watchtower position because as said by them, anointed Christians are God's temple, underpriest. (See w74 8/15 pg. 491, par. 4; w72 12/1 p. 719 par. 10, it-2 p. 1083 par. 5; re chap 6, pg. 29, par. 9)
***************************************

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Ephesians 2:21, 22
In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. In union with him you too are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit.

1 Peter 2:5
you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

It's like you closed your eyes when reading 1cor 3:16 and 17 o , verse 16 says Gods temple refer to anyone with Gods spirit.
Gods spirit only dwell in the anointed? That's the question u must answer
Explain to me which spirit is in John the Baptist ?

Points to Note 2:
Another problem with your writeup is that it Contradicts your religion. Watchtower is very specific about the temple of Re 7:15. Not even remotely do they suggest the temple of Re 7:15 is related to the temple of christ body of Christians. They said below:

"true, it is later described at Revelation 7:15 as serving God" in his temple". But this temple does not refer to the inner sanctuary, the Most Holy. Rather, it is the earthly courtyard of God's spiritual temple. The Greek word naos, here translated "temple", often conveys the broad sense of the entire edifice erected for Jehovah's worship. Today, this is a spiritual structure that embraces both heaven and earth. " - Relevation! It Grand Climax, Chap 20 page 124 par. 14

(However, what the above paragraph said in "relation to noas being the entire courtyard of the temple" is false. This false information of "noas being the entire temple courtyard" is also repeated in Insight Vol. 2, under the headings "Temple" , "Sanctuary" and some other WT publications. The temple sanctuary of Re 7:15, Greek "noas", divine habitations of God correspond to the Holy of Holies, the inner courtyard, Not the entire temple courtyard.

The false information in watchtower publications later corrected in watchtower of May 1, 2002, page 31 par 1. I'm. It away of any of their recent publications that discusses the subject but I'm guessing they will have to produce a book that replaces the insight anytime soon)

So you have 2 problems so far. If the members of the great crowd are God's temple, then they are definitely anointed Christians. And secondly, the temple of Re 7:15 is no referring to the body as in 1 Co 6:15-20; 1 Co 3:16,17 but the "divine habitation of Jehovah, the Holy of Holies" .
So, if the temple of Re 7:15 is not referring to human bodies, you have to deal with the fact that the temple mentioned there something different, and you will have to show that its either in heaven or on earth. But again, God's servant do not worship in any physical temple where you have the holy of holies.

Now, make no mistake about it, all true Christians are anointed. They have a single hope. What I posted above is not to support watchtower convoluted doctrine, but meant to show you the level of your ignorance thereby making the work of explaining things to you bigger than it should be.

Wow, So Jehovah's divine habitation in heaven was trampled by the nations ? Rev11:1,2 all the nations are even in heaven, So Even Gods enemy now have access to heaven.

Don't tell me that temple is on earth o

Point to Note 3:
In your attempt to create a demarcation between the tree of life and the water of LIFE, you have obviously created another issue for yourself.

First of all, the Watchtower themselves hardly make such demarcations, only in few instances. In some cases, saying it applies to all, in other cases, saying it applies to all. The same is also true of life, conquering of Re 21:6,7.

TATIME
Maximus69
Janosky
Barristter07
achorladey

The great Crowd are not part of the bridal class inviting people to take life water free ( Rev 22:17) let it Sink. A distinction added for emphasis

My point is everlasting life is a gift for all, but immortality signified by tree of life is a gift only for those who experience the first ressurection. The great Crowd are still alive on earth after the great tribulation , they are not dead , how exactly did you catapult them to heaven? Jz
The wording of the the text saying God will awipe their tears and spread his tent over them indicate they are the Mankind spoken of at Rev 21:3,4.

achorladey:
You cited Paulgrundy explanation as it relates to John 6:53

Here is HIS EXPLANATION below

The Remnant are the only ones that are allowed to partake of the bread and wine at the annual memorial of Jesus' death,[2] despite this being in flagrant disregard of Jesus, who said EVERLASTING LIFE is CONTINGENT on PARTAKING of the EMBLEMS in REMEMBRANCE of HIM.

John 6:53-57 "Accordingly Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me."


Did I cite the above in my response to you? Now you want me to tell you how WRONG or RIGHT it is.

You want me to tell you whether that the fact you brought forward is CORRECT or WRONG. HAHAHAHAHA.

What is a FACT? A true PIECE of INFORMATION. Hahahahaha and you still want me to tell you how WRONG or RIGHT a TRUE PIECE of information is.

Did you believe what you cited is TRUE or FALSE? You are the one CITING the FACT.

As long as the explanation has answered you.

Goodbye

achorladey:
Now we are going in CIRCLES? Is the Bible cited written by Paulgrundy? Did I use Paulgrundy explanation? E get as e be.

You asked a question and I provide an answer using Paulgrundy explanation as per he has Facts , All you need to do is check if the answer i provided is correct or not

achorladey:
Achorladey: Was pointing a fact to you. They didn't EAT the FLESH and BLOOD of CHRIST, simple . Means they dont't have life in them.

For the thief, I ask: How exactly did the THIEF EAT the FLESH of the son of Man and DRINK his BLOOD, that enable him HAVE LIFE in HIMSELF?

Explaining John 6:53 in answer to your question. See below

" he [Jesus ] commands partaking of the emblems as an importance acceptance of him and gaining everlasting life. " Paulgrundy

achorladey:
That's why it is good to read a post well before responding, when I rephrased your post with John 6:53 did you see me put flesh and blood is EMBLEMS and anyone who doesn't eat EMBLEMS won't have LIFE?

Na wa o yeye dey smell

Is paulgrundy Explanation wrong ?

achorladey:
What has Paulgrundy EXPLANATION got to do with what I rephrased from your post I cited based on........."DOESN'T CREATE ROOM FOR EXCEPTION THEORY"

John 6:53 unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man , you have no life in yourself.

No exception here, everyone must eat Jesus flesh and drink his blood, which is Emblems ... Anyone who doesnt eat the emblems wont have life.

" he [Jesus ] commands partaking of the emblems as an importance acceptance of him and gaining everlasting life. " Paulgrundy

achorladey:
You are still going back to what I have explained, you already agree that I didn't cite Paulgrundy explanation on John 6:53. Na Paulgrundy write John 6:53?

Now go back to my first response to you, I was citing his explanation as reply to you. Comprehende?

achorladey:
Hahahahaha, what is my problem with Paulgrundy? When I cited a scripture, was the scripture cited written by Paulgrundy? To now tell you whether it is correct or not.

Paulgrundy author and owner of JwFACTs. FACTS implies Correctness, Is the explanation of Paulgrundy correct/Factual on that scripture, Yes or no ? Very simple thing

achorladey:
And the same common sense didn't tell you I didn't but YOU DID. Hahahahaha.

Yes I did because we are talking about John 6:53 which you quoted, If Paulgrundy is correct or not, let me know

achorladey:
Did I quote his words for YOU?

Common sense didnt tell you that I quote his explanation of John 6:53 , was he WRONG ?

achorladey:
CAPTIVATOR: Did Abraham and others eat Emblems , No life in them man . Emblem must be eaten to gain life.

Achorladey: Have I mentioned EMBLEMS so far? Hahahahaha. E get as e be.


CAPTIVATOR:" he [Jesus ] commands partaking of the emblems as an importance acceptance of him [b] and gaining everlasting life." Paulgrundy

Achorladey: The usual LINE you have given previously........

Is paulgrundy WRONG?

achorladey:
Your......."DOESN'T CREATE ROOM FOR EXCEPTION THEORY" still looking at me in the FACE. Hahahahahaha.

Did Abraham and others eat Emblems , No life in them man . Emblem must be eaten to gain life.


" he [Jesus ] commands partaking of the emblems as an importance acceptance of him and gaining everlasting life. " Paulgrundy

Barristter07:
You just finished the Guy

Eating emblem is important for everlasting life

Barristter07:
How do some people manage to catapult living humans from earth to heaven without them even dying in the first place to be ressurected ?

Maybe The great tribulation occur in heaven ,

achorladey:
Hahahahahaha I know its going to definitely end in THAT direction of PaulGrundy the new BRAINWASHER"

Exactly. He is correct So you got your answer... The theif ate emblem to have life in himself.

Goodbye

rottennaija:
The same common sense in Re 2:7 where the so called anointed are "will eat from the tree of life." Common sense baa? Why are the "anointed" eating from the tree of life if they they are immortal?

Tree of life signifies Immortality which they receive during their Ressurection. ( First Ressurection) 1 Cor 15:52,53 the dead will be raised up ... and this which is mortal must put on immortality .

Or is it because the great crowd are in heaven, then it should stops them from being guided into the river of water of life?

U are creating more issues for yourself

Did it say Tree of life ? Jesus once told a Samaritan woman that Water of Life means " everlasting life " John 4:14 . Water of life signifies everlasting life that Jesus will give this great crowd that survived the great tribulation that occur on earth where they are. THEY DIDNT DIE to be ressurected to heaven. They came out alive from the great tribulation. Man, They are right here on earth.

This was besides the point. My question is, is the temple sanctuary mentioned in Re 7:15 in heaven? Or on earth? Or the bodies of Christians?

• The temple is where they are . On earth where the tribulation occur, and yes their body too is Gods temple. Note: They didnt die and get resurrected , They Came out alive from the tribulation. Comprehende ?

achorladey:
Will want to do a REPHRASING here to see how this........doesn't CREATE ROOM FOR EXCEPTION THEORY

applies to John 6:53..........Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, UNLESS you EAT the FLESH of the son of Man and DRINK his BLOOD, you have NO LIFE in yourselves.

and

John 3:5...........Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, UNLESS a PERSON is born of WATER and SPIRIT, he cannot ENTER the kingdom of God.

Achorladey: Was pointing a fact to you. They didn't EAT the FLESH and BLOOD of CHRIST, simple . Means they dont't have life in them.

For the thief, I ask: How exactly did the THIEF EAT the FLESH of the son of Man and DRINK his BLOOD, that enable him HAVE LIFE in HIMSELF?

You are wasting your time." UNLESS YOU "doesn't create room for exception theory

The thief ate Emblem , drink wine and eat Bread , Hear what your brainwasher has to say below

" he [Jesus ] commands partaking of the emblems as an importance acceptance of him and gaining everlasting life.

John 6:53-57 "Accordingly Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. " - PaulGrundy

Blind leading the blind

Cc: rottennaija

rottennaija:
As I said earlier, You are just beating about the Bush and worse of all, you are setting different questions and answering them.

The place is very clear, it don't refer to the temple of the body but it points out clearly, they are rendering God sacred service in his temple day and night. The temple mentioned there says specifically, Jehovah's temple, temple sanctuary.

The question is the temple sanctuary, is the temple in heaven or on earth?

And the Bible said we are Jehovah's temple?

Why are they still guarded to the water of LIFE if they are in heaven? Common sense

rottennaija:
You are just beating about the Bush without saying anything. The place is very clear, it don't refer to the temple of the body but it points out clearly, they are rendering God sacred service in his temple day and night.

The question is the temple, is the temple in heaven or on earth?

1Corinthians 3:16 " Do you not know that you yourselves are GODS TEMPLE ? " a typical example of Gods temple on earth.

Interestingly, that same verse adds " and the one seated on the throne will spread his tent over them" Revelation 21:3 reveal this are mankind. Where does mankind live ? Clear

Verse 17 expose it all , they will be sherperd amd guided to the water of life.

Whereas ANYONE Who experience the first resurrection wont need to be guided to the water of life since they are already IMMORTAL. Its clear those spoken of here are on earth, they are not immortal

rottennaija:
OK. Now let focus on the great crowd of Re 7. Re 7:15 says they are in the temple sanctuary. Is God's temple heaven or earth?

Gods servant in the past built temples on earth . so dont try to make it seem temple is all about heaven.

The temple mentioned is on earth. Maybe you don't know, even our body is spoken as Gods temple. Before that point we are already told, they came out of great tribulation which occur here on earth and the key here is they survived it. So they are still on the earth

rottennaija:
So the great crowd of re 19 is what? Humans? Angels?

Angels in heaven

rottennaija:
So somehow, he didn't see a great crowd that were humans, but he heard of a great crowd of angels? Is that what you are saying?

Let me ask you clearly. You are saying the great crowd of Re 19:1 is angel? Right?

Mr, He didnt see any great crowd or water or thunder, he only DESCRIBED how what he heard sounds like. I was making a point that If the voice of Jesus could be said to sound Like Many waters, nothing stops this from being voice of angels. This is not the same crowd mentioned at Rev 7

rottennaija:
Ask a very specific question. Where does it say the nations are gathered before the throne?

The nations are gathered before him... Who is him? The one sitting on the THRONE .

Clearly then they are before the Throne. In heaven ? Common sense

rottennaija:
I never said they were, rather I said they hhad a different criteria required of them. I challenge you to show me where I said they were. However, I saying the thief was born again. Simply.

Was pointing a fact to you. They aint born again, simple . Means they won't be in heaven

For the thief, I ask: How exactly is the thief born of water and spirit to be regarded as born again ?

Let me ask you, was Abraham required to keep the mosaic law? How about Isaac and Jacob? If they not, why?

You are wasting your time." UNLESS ANYONE "doesn't create room for exception theory

rottennaija:
Again, i'm gonna ask you to show me where I said those men were born again?

Let me ask you, was Abraham required to keep the mosaic law? How about Isaac and Jacob? If they not, why?

So u agree with my point that they are not born again.

John 3:3 UNLESS anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God .

They are not going to heaven. Likewise, that thief on Jesus side.

rottennaija:
You are indeed funny. You were trying to hang to to the use of "like, as" by John. I took time to explain John's writing style, you couldn't argue nonsense anymore.

Now you are shifting ground to angels. Let me ask you clearly, the great crowd of Re 19:1 refers to angels just because John didn't use "like, as" in Re 7 about the GC?


Let's have clarity here. You are saying the great crowd of Re 19:1 is angel? Right?

Voice heard looks LIKE Water, Thunder, Great crowd, description, are you aware that He described the voice of Jesus as like Many waters, just one person, so the point is, The voices can be that of just two, three, or four angels. Voice heard was described, HE DIDN'T SAW A GREAT CROWD, Rushing Waters Or Thunder. Keep that point.

St. Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Mt 25:32 is above. You can quote from NWT. Where does it say the nations are gathered before the throne?

Do I need to spoonfeed you that you should look up verse 31?

rottennaija:
First of all, if you can show me where I said that "before Jesus even died, men have been dying and going to heaven", then I'll concede you have won. That is one of the useless theory formed by JWs about others when they don't ask to know what the person said.

Even Jesus had said that no one has gone to heaven before, but the first to is him who descended and ascended again. (Jn 3:13)

At the time of Jesus saying it, it stood true for no one had. In Paul's mention of what many refer to as the rapture, he referred to the other of resurrection, where those who had died before in the Lord will rise first. It stands to reason that during the Christ second coming, "the presence of the Lord", those who died earlier will resurrect first, then those who are still alive will be caught up into the air, where the apostle mention that "we shall always be with the Lord". (1 Th 4:15-18) The order of resurrection syns in line with Jesus' word in Mt 24:40, 41.

The 1 Th 4:15-18 account by the apostle Paul punctures another hole in the Jw doctrine of Jesus invisible presence in 1914 where he was said to be enthroned as King. Because, if had been, then 100 years after, they wouldn't be any anointed on earth as they would have all be with him, unless JWs want us to believe that the resurrection is also invisible too or whatever.

In any case, I will not be speculating on the order of resurrection, on who will be resurrected first and who follows after. These are on of the matters not clearly stated in the bible. But what is stated clearly, firmly is, they will be resurrection, ancient faithful servants of God will be rewarded in heaven, for God had prepared a heavenly city for them, (He 11:16) a great crowd is in heaven (Re 19:1), 144,000 will be in heaven (Re 14:3).

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St. John 3:13 For only I, the Son of Man, have come to earth and will return to heaven again.

St. Matthew 24:40 "Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left.
St. Matthew 24:41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.

Hebrews 11:16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.

Those men are not born again, stop wasting your time on this aspect, I can see you have kept mute on the different criteria theory when it was shown to you where its written UNLESS ANYONE is born again. So 1Thes didnt apply to them, But the ressurection described in Act 24:15

Same goes for the thief on Jesus side, funny enough he didn't eat Jesus flesh and blood ( emblems) according to rottennaija philosophy yet gained life

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Act 24:15 Ressurection of righteous and unrighteous . a ressurection to heaven ?

rottennaija:
Where I come from, when two people are arguing a point and one among them is smiling and laughing from ear to ear, it is generally an indication he lacks what to say, cannot defend or is ill equipped and deficient.

First of all, you need to know the apostle John's writing style throughout the book of revelation. He uses the expression "seems like", "as", "like" frequently. The uses of these words doesn't suggest something he isn't sure of, a reflection of his point of view. He is seeing something millenniums ahead of time.

Second, yes, John is describing what he heard. But that does not invalid the location of where the sound is coming from. As an example, Re 1:10 says

Revelation 1:10
It was the Lord's Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit. Suddenly, I heard a loud voice behind me, a voice that sounded like a trumpet blast.

Hear, John is describing what he heard, the voice sounded like a trumpet blast. Fine. But does that invalid the fact that he heard a voice? Behind him? No.

The description of the voice, how it sounded does not have anything to do with its source or location. If I heard a voice that sounded like a big clash of metal in the TV, the description of the sound doesn't affect where I heard it from. I'm just adding qualifiers to describe what I heard.

In Re 1:14, John describe he saw. Someone like the son of man, his hair and head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like flames etc. The use of like, as in those passages doesn't not invalid who he saw, the son of man, rather they are added description of his appearances.

Again, John said in Re 4:1

Revelation 4:1 Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, " Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things. "

Here, he again described the sound as being of a mighty trumpet. But the description of the sound does not invalid the source of the sound or its location or just as in verse 2, he was shown a throne in heaven whom the one sitting on it was as" brilliant as gemstones—jasper and carnelian", this again does not invalid that the throne is in heaven or that someone is sitting on it.

You need more? Carefully examine the book of Revelation, pay attention to John's writing style.

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Revelation 1:14 His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were bright like flames of fire.
Revelation 1:15 His feet were as bright as bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves.

You are offside, No one said John didnt heard a voice, But the description refer to vast crowd of Angel's with Mighty voices like thunder and like many waters . thats not human

Your problem is you tend to conclude every mention of vast crowd is a reference to those of Rev 7, Then that means when Jesus is said to be teaching the Great crowd at Matthew 19:2 and 20:29, its a reference to those of Rev 7 ??

Your case is pathetic

Revelation 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white and held palm branches in their hands.

Re 7:9 is describing events after the tribulation or whatever you call it. It mentions them standing in front of the throne and before the lamp. There is no mention of earth in that verse, you are simply forcing it on the verse.

Re 7:15 goes further to mention them serving God in his temple sanctuary, Greek divine habitation of God. This temple sanctuary corresponds to the Holy of Holies of the Jerusalem temple, where only the high priest enter.

There is simply no point in the bible to support your claims.

At Matthew 25:32, the nations were said be standing before the throne too, So all the nations are in heaven . where is your thinking cap ?

The angel said this great crowd are those that SURVIVED the great tribulation , where did it occur ? The answer is clear. They survived and came out of it, they didnt die o that they will now dissapear to heaven or be ressurected there common sense

rottennaija:
No. I don't embarrass myself with Paul grudy doll argument. No. Neither do I deceive myself with watchtower and its governing body deceptive, ignorant and self serving arguments and falsehood.


Revelation 19:1 After this, I heard the sound of a vast crowd in heaven shouting, "Hallelujah! Salvation is from our God. Glory and power belong to him alone.

John didn't just hear the sound, he said the great crowd is in heaven. Verse 6 says, they sound is as loud thunder, many water. Whether the sound was as loud thunder or not, the point it, the sound was made by a great crowd in heaven.

When baptismal candidates in your convention answers with a loud, clear voice Yes, their voices can be like thunder or many water. But their voices will be heard in the front seat of the auditorium. because that is where they are.

Anyone outside the convention ground hear the sound of songs of worship, will be a sound a loud as thunder or water or anything. But the sound he will hear will be in the convention ground because that is where they are and making the sound from.

please read the blue, " AS" , is used to make a comparison , John was describing what he heard , The wording of the text reveal he was comparing what he heard, He said the VOICE Is LIKE or AS a vast crowd , thunder, water. A comparison,


That alone render your postulation invalid.

The Great Crowd of Rev 7 are on earth where the great tribulation occur, John didnt say " LIKE" or " AS" .

rottennaija:
I used it to show you the foolishness of what you had wrote. I'm surprised you don't see it. Here you claim someone had died decades before Jesus paid the ransom can resurrect and live a 1000 years but cannot live in heaven because Jesus had not been alive when they died.

I'm surprised. Probably, you don't read my post. Maybe you are simply scanning my post just to see what you can reply and not.

I never claimed the red part, stop putting words in my mouth, My reference was Jesus ransom making it possible for people to be raised to life in the FUTURE for a thousand years and beyond under the Messianic rule.

Compare that to your useless theory that Before Jesus even died for sin, men have been dying and going to heaven, of what use is Jesus death if people made heaven without him dying for sins ?

rottennaija:
Since we are being sarcastically foolish logic, yes, according to WT doctrine, they die and will be resurrected to earthly life, without Jesus dying for them. O, how useless the ransom is, people resurrected without Jesus, right?

Can anyone ressurect and live a thousand years and beyond without Jesus ransom ? Sorry u don't think

Go back and reply, Did People gain Everlasting Life in heaven without Jesus even dying for their sins? Dont forget those men died long before Jesus even came for mankind. By your logic, is the ransom not useless ?