₦airaland Forum

chrmn1:
Bros no be fight na. It's always a lovely thing to reason in scriptures so it's always nice to look at other perspectives. I can't know all and you can't either. We all learn from each other daily.

My understanding is that God exists outside time so time is not the matter here. I said that the scripture you quoted was made in reference to Christ's redemptive work on the earth. The passage in Colossians shows that not only did Jesus create everything but that He also created them for Himself which is at variance with the analogy you gave about a master asking his secretary to write a letter and taking the glory.

Jesus is not the Creator - Matthew 19:4,6 . he gave that title to his Father.

If Christ was always a servant why did He need to undo His divine nature and take up the form of a servant at a certain point as revealed in Phil 2:6?

That only point to human form. doesnt change the Fact that God many years before chosed his servant . " Servant, whom I have CHoSEN " not whom I will chose

Again , Jesus have a God he worships- Rev 3:12

shadeyinka:
You will not surly die was the second lie and a direct one.

The first lie was the sublease one.
What God said:
Gen 2:16-17:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat : But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."


What satan said:

Gen 3:1:
"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, Yes, has God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

Subtle lies: your trademark!

By declaring a person continue to exist after their body death, You are promoting Satan's lie that indeed nobody really dies . its ordinary container that dies Not the person. Satanic

chrmn1:
The argument is not about whether or not whether God is His Father or not or whether He did it solely without any other being. Scriptures are clear regarding these matters.

I pointed out that Jesus was more than just a channel or as Captivator would put it, a secretary writing a letter for his boss who takes the glory because the letter was both the boss' idea and for his purpose also. Scriptures declare that "all things were made....for Him"

Jesus cannot be the Father because he took up humanity for the salvation of you and me.

What I want you to understand is that Jesus have a God, even as a divine being. Rev 3:12

shadeyinka:
I don't know what you mean by figurative death?

Death is a Disconnection or Separation. There are three kinds of death
1. Physical Death:
When the Soul/Spirit is Disconnected from the Body
2. Spiritual Death:
When a human Spirit is Disconnected from God
3. Second Death:
When a human body, soul and spirit is permanently/eternally disconnected from God.

As for Jesus on the Cross, His soul/spirit was disconnected from his body.

Isa 53:12:
"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul to death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

1Pet 3:19:
"By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison;"

1Pet 4:6:
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

A soul poured to death is non living . according to you , physical death is when soul/spirit is discinne from the Body, what happen to the body ? Dies , You agree right.

Now you want to imply the soul continue to live on, but Isaiah said Just like the body dies, his soul will also experience death . you are in soup

Did it happen or Isaiah lied ?

chrmn1:
Isaiah 42 was in reference to his role after taking up human form, "servant". Col 1:16 reads that all things were created by Him and for Him so that servant analogy doesn't hold water. Jesus was very much the centre of creation not the servant you portray him to be. So for God to say He created the world alone shows that there is a coded message in this all.

My servant, whom I have chosen , Not whom I will chose . its already a done deal... As at that point when God chosed him in heaven, was he a servant or not ? U lack comprehension

shadeyinka:
Please show me from the scripture.
We have the LORD and Two angels who appeared to Abraham as Men.

If this is wrong, show me please!

You are getting so desperate , so Abraham saw Yahweh whom no man can see and live ?

shadeyinka:
You are the one jumping about.
Simple compression of Gen18, you jumped to Heb13:2 which was talking about Christian hospitality (not related to Abraham or Lot)

Two angels went to Sodom (Lot) AND the LORD remained with Abraham! Why does satan blind you so much as to ignore the logos for your organisations interpretation?


Your ignorance of simple compression of the scriptures is appalling.

1. Please show a single scripture that says "Abraham entertained ANGELS and not God"
You even have the ordacity to use Heb13:2 as evidence. How blind can you be?

You even highlighted in RED the wrongest interpretation.

And he (Abraham) took butter, and milk, and the calf which he (Abraham) had dressed, and set it before them; and he (Abraham) stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

Okay, let me help you out. Abraham stood with the Lord who was accompanied by two angels (and the three appeared as MEN)

Only you understand how you read the scriptures but see only the letters and interpretation of your organisation!

I have brought out the Interlinear Hebrew-English translation screenshot for you.

First Screenshot
Yahweh (the LORD) spoke to Abraham Gen18:1
Second Screenshot
Lot called the Two angels Adonai (Lord) Gen19:2

Can you see how mislead you've become!??

Your screenshot of Gen 19:2 says MY LORD was what Lot called them, I dont know your problem .

Back to the highlighted, Who entertained angels without knowing in the Bible ? Who was Paul refffering at Heb 13:2 ?

You are in another trouble for saying Heb 13:2 isnt related to Abraham

One reason why I like you is because you dey always enter offside.

shadeyinka:
Jehovah the Word (who in creation said: "Let there be...and it was" , who appeared to Moses as Fire, who ate with two angels in the house of Abraham, who spoke the promise of Isaac to Abraham, who made everything (visible and invisible). This same Word, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob took up human flesh, born to a woman named Mary and called by the name Jesus Christ.

Thank you, Thank You . all this while, this is what am expecting all right , see the below as it rubbished your manipulative and deluded claims


" The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Servant Jesus, " - Act 3:13 Holman

So Jesus is a servant of God of Abraham ?

As per how many men are?!!!
Sometimes, I wonder what grade you are!?
What did the bible say?

Gen 18:5-8:
"And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort you your hearts; after that you shall pass on: for therefore are you come to your servant. And they said, So do, as you have said. And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes on the hearth. And Abraham ran to the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it to a young man; and he hurried to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them ; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat."

What is the scripture according to CAPTIVATOR saying about they that ate?:

Heb 13:2 was describing what happened to Abraham . he said the three men that are entertained are Angels .

You are in trouble.

your problem is You jump too much

shadeyinka:
I will quote the text for you: please show from the text that it isn't the LORD and Two Angels appearing to Abraham as Men!

This things I expect you'll have known from the children's class!

Gen 18:1-24; 21:3:
"And the LORD appeared to him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, see, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My LORD, if now I have found favor in your sight, pass not away, I pray you, from your servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort you your hearts; after that you shall pass on: for therefore are you come to your servant. And they said, So do, as you have said. And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes on the hearth. And Abraham ran to the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it to a young man; and he hurried to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. And they said to him, Where is Sarah your wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return to you according to the time of life; and, see, Sarah your wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? And the LORD said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, No; but you did laugh. And the men rose up from there, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring on Abraham that which he has spoken of him. And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come to me; and if not, I will know. And the men turned their faces from there, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. And Abraham drew near, and said, Will you also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: will you also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? … And Abraham called the name of his son that was born to him, whom Sarah bore to him, Isaac."

It's simple English. Easy to comprehend!

Lot called the two angels MY LORD as well, so its no big deal . like i said One angel was representing Yahweh.


Scripture said Abraham entertained ANGELS NOT YAHWEH ,


" Don’t forget to show hospitality to strangers, for some who have done this have entertained ANGELS without realizing it! " Hebrews 13:2

All the men entertained are ANGELS .


Is Jesus now an angel ? Mr Jesus appear

shadeyinka:
I do not remember quoting Rom11:36 or even Rev4:11 to you.

The scriptures I referenced to you, you ignored (your normal escape mode).

My Quote:

And the scripture was

Col 1:16:
"for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him , and for him: "

Even your NWT agree with the bolded (even though it reads "all other things"!

And I said, "what is the implication of the second bolded"?

No implication, Thats why I gave you Romans 11:36 , Even the bolded was applied to his Father.

chrmn1:
he is also divine just as you have been trying to prove to me all along.

He cant be both. A divine spirit does not have flesh and bone. Its either you call him a man or a divine being. Choose

chrmn1:
I am not contradicting Jesus. If contradiction is God saying He created the world all by Himself and we know that He created the world through Christ then I am happy with my contradiction. There is no contradiction here but you willfuly do not see the coded message in the seeming contradiction because of your biases.

When you as a Boss , write a letter through your secretary or servant, Who owns Letter ? you. The recipient would never attribute the letter to anyone else. Jesus is Gods servant . Isaiah 42:1 . so that's different, you can do something through your servant and claim all the honor, .


But here is a Case of ONLY the Father knows, Does that not rule any other person out ?

If you as a Boss have access to some confidential info, if you tell any other person, are you still the only one ? Common sense brother

chrmn1:
my dear, I did not manufacture that scripture. Are you saying that Christ's ministry of mediation only applied to when he was on the earth?

Paul refer to his previous identity as human.

Let me play along with you, That means Christ isn't divine. , agree ?

chrmn1:
I have answered you. Meanwhile you evaded my question in Isaiah 44

Seems you have no clue anymore.

Jesus said ONLY the Father knows. One single person, does that not tell you no OTHER person knows ?

You can only make sense if you admit holy spirit isnt a person, but so far you insist it is, You are CONTRADICTING Jesus by saying TWO PERSONS KNOW

shadeyinka:
I did answer you!
I said "Of course"
And I gave you instance from the scripture where Jehovah came with two angels to Abraham.

What other answer do you want?

You didnt, I need a direct response : Is Jesus the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ?

I wish you could justify with the scriptures your claim of "One Represented Jehovah"!

I see that your comprehension of the scriptures is at children class level or your organisation closed your eyes to the plainly revealed.

Let me educate you: the LORD came with two angels to Abraham. The three of them appeared to Abraham as MEN. When the two angels went to Sodom, the LORD stayed behind to speak to Abraham.

Gen 18:1-20,22-23:
"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, ........

And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; ...
Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. ....

And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him , that he will command his children and his household after him, ....

And the LORD said , Because the cry of Sodom and Gomor´rah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, … And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD . And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?"



I know you are used to twisting scriptures: I am just imagining the new doctrine I'm going to here from you in defence!

How many of the men ate ? You are in soup

chrmn1:
I did not mention only NWT but again I put it to you that if God sanctions human worship, He'd be a liar.

That means Jesus should not be worshipped. Isnt he a human according to you ? In fact that makes it wrong to translate *proskuneo as worship for Jesus , it should be let the angels BOW DOWN . not worship.

Whatever you apply to Rev 3:9 , apply to Jesus too

chrmn1:
Man is essentially spirit, soul and body. This is different from a spirit/angel who has no body.

The bible says "the MAN Jesus is the mediator between God and man."

You are not serious, we are talking about DIVINE nature, you are saying nonsense. Its either Christ has a Divine nature in heaven or human nature, he cant be both. Is Jesus DIVINE or a man ?

chrmn1:
No He didn't. Check up most of the translations including the one you trust. It says "bow down at your feet"

God would be a liar if He sanctions worship of any entity other than God.

NwT would never use worship for any person except God Almighty, not even Jesus. So trying to use NWT as reference will wound you.

Are u aware the same Greek word translated worship in the case of Jesus when u said " Let all angels of God worship him " is the Exact same at Rev 3:9 ?? Are u saying its a wrong translation for Jesus too ?

chrmn1:
Yes I agree with Jesus.

A spirit has no flesh and bones but a spirit can wear flesh and bones. The disciples were amazed because they thought the being they had seen was spirit not a man. Jesus said I am a man. Holy Spirit has no flesh/bone so if he had showed up in that room the disciples wouldn't be able to feel his bones.

2 Cor 4:16, 2 Thessalonians 5:23 among other scriptures show that man is essentially made up of both spirit and flesh.

This is called materializing, Angels did it in the past, it doesnt make them human. Once their mission is done, the human body vanish. If thats the case, Jesus can't be human in heaven where Spirit beings Live

Barristter07:

Emphasis on " ONLY " the Father ? You are contradicting Jesus already

Thank you o

As in ehn,

chrmn1:
Here God Almighty says He created all things by Himself alone but scattered through out scriptures is the idea that He created all things through Christ? Did He lie, no. If you understand why He did not lie, you would easily see the point I have been trying to make to my friend Captivator.

Simply because Jesus rely on his power to do all he did. He can't function without Gods power.

Back to the matter, This Holy spirit we are talking about . a different person right ? So how many person knows the day and hour ?

chrmn1:
They are not God. Who made them God?

Who accept worship , is it not God ?

Didnt they accept worship at Rev 3:9 ?

You hijack a conversation you cant handle

chrmn1:
Jesus is not only a physical body. Were it so he couldn't function on the earth. Do you agree that man has a combination of spirit, soul and body? Maybe we should start from there.


In fact you were the one even arguing with me that Jesus is not human but a divine spirit in Revelations.

According to Jesus, you cant be human being and divine spirit being at the same time, Jesus said a Spirit DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES!!!

SO ITS EITHER Jesus is a spirit being or flesh ( human being ) at Rev 3:12 . he cant be both .


Do you again disagree with Jesus ?

shadeyinka:
I asked a question!
There isn't anything difficult in saying what death means. So, stop being evasive except you don't know the answer!

Dpnt confuse yourself . we have figurative death and real death often called physical death or Adamic death. Am speaking in context of Adamic Death, When a man becomes a non living .

With this definition, I ask: Did the Messiah soul dies as prophesied by Isaiah ?

shadeyinka:
I will respond to this by showing you that Yahweh is the "Word made Flesh"

Gen 18:16-22:
"And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomor´rah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD."

The same Yahweh who Abraham stood before is "the Word became Flesh"!

If God is spirit, who stood with two angels with Abraham?

Abraham entertained THREE MEN and they all ate, according to scripture those entertained are ANGELS , Making the three men angels, Shadeyinka is Jesus now an angel ? Yeeba serious matter be this o yeye

shadeyinka:
As far as you are concerned,
1. Yahweh created Jesus
2. Jesus created all other things for Yahweh
But here the scripture you quoted shows that ALL other things were created FOR JESUS!

What's the implication of this simple scripture?

Romans 11:36 is not about Jesus, Verse 35 said this person wasnt given anything. This is not Jesus . clearly its the Father.

Now it says All things are From him . Owner. ( Rev 4:11)

Through him and For him as well ... But through him make me ask: What exactly was made through the Father ?

shadeyinka:
Of course!

John 8:56-58:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am ."

And the upper part of the scripture I quoted above:
Gen 18:1-3:
"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, and said, My Lord , if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:"

Did Jehovah become Flesh here?

1. I asked that is Jesus the God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob , You refuse to reply . I still demand an answer to that , Exodus 3:15,16 Yahweh reveal himself as God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Is this Jesus ? Shadeyinka why are you scared to reply .


2. You moved to an entirely different subject again, Let me remind you that the three men that appeared to Abraham are ANGELS . One represented Yahweh , God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob . Is Jesus an Angel ?? You are in hot soup for saying one of them is Jesus .

chrmn1:
the baffling thing is that you are misinterpreting my statement. Okay ignore every notion in your head and settle it that [b] there are 3 persons [/b]functioning in a manner such that one cannot function without the others.

You are also implying that the lack of mention of the spirit implies that he isn't involved. Perhaps God was lying when He said, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;" Isaiah 44:24

Was God lying when He said this because all through scriptures its clear that God made the world along with the Word and Spirit.

Confused fellow

If there are three person, please how many persons know the day and hour , ?

shadeyinka:
I asked a simple question:
What is death?

I expect the see "Death is.....!"

For clearer understanding , am using your point of view to explain my point. When u say " human Body dies " what do u mean by death ? Exactly my definition of death.

shadeyinka:
I have rested my case.
The One who worked Rested. QED!

Typical ignorance display. Scripture said Yahweh rested , Is Yahweh Jesus ? Mr man

Exodus 3:15,16 Gives the identity of Yahweh as God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob .. Abeg , is that Jesus ??

shadeyinka:
Good,
Yahweh (Jesus, the Word) who did the actual Work of creation RESTED after His Work.
Col 1:16-18:
"for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him : and he is before all things, and by him all things consist: and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence."


Your esteemed NWT
Col
16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,


Note the phrase CREATED FOR HIM

Romans 11:36 Concerning Yahweh, The God and Father of Jesus, verse said " FROM HIM and BY HIM and FOR HIM are all things "

" FROM HIM " . never used For Jesus. Superiority


Question here is: What was created through Yahweh, Father of Jesus ?

shadeyinka:
Good,
Yahweh (Jesus, the Word) who did the actual Work of creation RESTED after His Work.
Col 1:16-18:
"for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him : and he is before all things, and by him all things consist: and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence."


Your esteemed NWT
Col
16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,


Note the phrase CREATED FOR HIM

Your premise is flawed

Yahweh isn't Jesus. Let me show you Yahweh, when revealing himself to Moses he said I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One question for you : Is Jesus the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ?