₦airaland Forum

Goshen360: One thing I know is, today's church is still far from Christ like Christianity. Christ never taught such neither the Apostles. Until we understand Christ-like Christianity, we will continue to promote religion thinking we're doing God a favour. The Christ I know, will never excommunicate any of His followers - that's the Christianity of Christ.

I agree sir and expressed this view to a close family friend last week. Her own opinion is that the only grounds for excommunication are if the person goes into heresy and refuses correction or unrepentantly pledges allegiance to satanic teachings. Besides these extreme cases, we have no right to send packing anyone Christ has saved.

Nashville: I think people just use this fetish thing to scare others. My advice to you is this. First of all, make a formal complaint to the police. The next time he calls you, you husband should pick the phone and ask him never to call you again. Next call his wife and inform her as well. Show her all his texts etc. He can beat his wife to death if her likes but thats not your problem.

If he now calls you after that, get the police involved immediately or better still, organise some thugs to give him a few slaps. Make hin to tell hin fellow wizards for their cult. He cannot do nada!

I support this! Your husband's silence makes your neighbour think you are considering his proposal and that's why he is heaping the pressure. He thinks you are only playing hard to get.

If you and your husband are Christians, he and his host of wizards can bring you no harm. I wouldn't even spend a long time praying over such an issue. The devil is far beneath you so his agents cannot harass you. Have your husband confront him right away. I'm not sure about Nigerian Police but please inform them as formality.

My real concern is this (and I don't mean to scare you): if this prolongs without your husband addressing it now, he may decide to double cross in another way e.g. Trail you to a place where you are defenceless. In your own interest, please act quickly.

If he truly said this, I find nothing wrong with it. Apart from the pagan origin of some of the articles in its modern day celebration, I think the preacher has simply equated the seasonal hype and commercial stunts to idolatry. Admonishing his congregation to avoid the trappings of idolatry seems perfectly in order, to my mind.

depato88: Honestly, they have serious self-esteem problems.
Do you know Zimbabwe contributed nearly ten times
more to the anti-apartheid struggle than Nigeria? I'm
not even sure Pa Mugabe was aware of the funeral
much less attending it or making a speech. I don't see
Zimbabweans killing themselves over any ''snub''.
Even countries like Angola which were among the
frontline states that even sent in men and material to
fight alongside the ANC, yet they weren't asked to
make a speech. Some of our people really have
problems.
If South Africa has any issues with Nigeria, it is more
of a competition thing for leadership in Africa etc....
With Nigeria set to rebase her GDP, it will make
Nigeria Africa's largest economy, with the benefits
that all brings in terms of investment and global
profile etc.

Correction - Mugabe was in the stadium and received a loud ovation from the crowd when he was introduced.
Of course it is a slight on Nigeria to be excluded from the list of tribute speakers. I think it is down to personal terms more than anything and I'm almost sure Obasanjo would have it to the podium if he was still president, same way Tony Blair would have been allowed to speak. Zuma selected his 'friends' but notice how even he, Zuma, was booed by his own people. The treatment he received was worse than the snub he meted.

vickyO: God bless you..

You are blessed too. Thanks to you and lastmessenger for sustaining your sound discussions with the OP. I am ok with him believing anything he wants to believe but he cannot be allowed to misrepresent our God as a God that will send souls to hell for using hair threads. Teaching such an unbalanced message to a world seeking love presents a love-less God, thus misrepresenting Him. I don't think the OP understands the gravity of what he is doing with this thread. We had this problem in the early church too when some narrow-minded believers tried to force circumcision as a condition for heaven (Acts 15:1). So the OP's type isn't new but thanks for making him know some of us have lost the fear of hell and the sting of death has been overcome. We celebrate His LIFE in us and simply express Him in our daily interactions with the world - with or without thread and jewellery!

highyo: I AM NOT SAYING I MYSELF I'M SAVED, I TELL YOU THE TRUTH I DONT KNOW IF MY NAME IS IN THE BOOK OF LIFE. I DONT KNOW UNTIL WHEN I FINSH THE RACE, EVERYDAY I PRAY FOR MERCY AND PRAYER OF FORGIVNESS EVERYDAY. BECAUSE, I KNOW THERE ARE MANY BORNAGAIN IN HELL. THEY END UP THERE ALL JUST FOR ONE SIN OR ANOTHER. I BEG GOD FOR MERCY ALL THE TIME.
I CAN NEVER SAY I'M NOT A SINNER, EVEN WHEN I SAY I'M BORN AGAIN, YET I STILL CLASSIFIED MY SELF AS A SINNER. AND MY RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE LIKE STINKING RAGG IN FRONT OF HIM. BUT THAT SHOULD NOT MEAN I SHOULD IGNORE WHAT I KNOW IT'S SIN
(ROM 6:1- END)
HELL ENLARGE ITSELF EVERY TIME, YET THOUSANDS OF SOULS FALL IN EVERY MINUITE
PLEASE ALL, LET ASK FOR GOD MERCY, TO HELP US, FORGIVE WHATSOEVER WE HAVE COMMITED
LET'S REMIND HIM HE HAS NOT CREATED US FOR DESTRUCTION
LET REMIND HIM OF THE LOVE HE HAS FOR US BEFORE HE SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO DIE FOR US
LET HUMBLE OUR SELF BEFORE HIM AND BEG FOR MERCY
PRAY A PRAYER OF FORGIVNESS ALL THE TIME AND LIVE A HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS LIFE FOR WITHOUT NO ONE CAN INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS GETTING MORE TIGHTER EVERYDAY
THERE IS NO ETERNAL SECURITY, LIVE ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD ALWAYS
I LOVE YOU ALL

You don't know if your name is in the book of life? No witness in your spirit that you are a son? You even said you don't know if you are saved. Those are weighty words and I suggest you revisit the foundation of your salvation experience and retrace your steps (I judge not. I am only responding to your statements). You shouldn't dabble into doctrinal topics in a public domain until you are sure of your spiritual state. I love you too, and so does every well-meaning person that responded to you.

Goshen360: I'm Goshen360 and I endorse your message.

Thank you sir. I stand with you too, for we can do nothing against the truth but for the truth.

@ op,
That we are saved and in church doesn't mean we seal our minds from reasoning and constructing valuable thoughts when we seek to discuss spiritual matters. In Christ is simplicity and Life, not a set of rules that scare people about hell. Hell is real, no doubt, but it is not for God's children. Your statement that Born Again Christians will end up in hell over hair thread turns scripture upside town. Have you not read where Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that NOTHING that goes into a man can defile a man. Ok, 'he was talking about food', I hear you say in defence of your theology. If food doesn't defile, what makes you think hair thread defiles the spirit of a man?
Let me be clear - the blood of Jesus is the qualifying criteria for eternal life. Mundane things like hair attachments do not stand in the way of the blood. Even if we focus on the law, let's look at the weightier matters of the law (what lawyers term 'the spirit of the law') - matters of Justice, mercy and faith!

incrediblestev: At times you Christian folks can be do fake and pretentious, you want to speak against wrong doing only when nobody is watching and in the audience of people who are too afraid to call a spade a spade, so much for transparency and equitable justice. A man commits a crime that affects everyone and you think about is your frivolous feelings.

May be if there are more Christians condemning his excessive and repulsive behavior, he would be forced to change not pampering him and pretending all is well. You guys are full of pretentious bullshyte.

Condemn based on imbalanced reporting? No sir! I made reference to the slapping incidence that I decried. Let's see a video evidence of what happened or hear the church's version before "throwing stones". I don't subscribe to the notion that everything that resembles Oyedepo must be condemned because you don't like him. So many people do so out of envy, not necessarily because they are in support of truth and justice.
Also a word for you - if you can't handle your emotions by responding respectfully, please fly a kite. Oyedepo remains a brother and no, I won't condemn him to please you.

Pastor Kun: And what guarantee does Oyedepo have that he would make it to heaven

I am a proponent of balanced views and I enjoyed reading "helpee" 's comment in this thread. Generally speaking, Nigerians enjoy attacking anything that looks successful. Every wealthy man is tagged a rogue even when we can't prove it. When David Oyedepo falls victim of negative imbalanced press reporting, people are ready to pounce on him with daggers even when they hear only a side of the story. His fame has earned him many enemies who tear him down with glee. Sadly, some of these people are Christians and they take delight in tearing one of theirs into pieces - in a public domain. Brethren, these things ought not to be so.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not here to hold brief for Oyedepo. I don't admire him and I have sometimes criticised him in closed 'Christians only' forums. When he slapped that girl, i was angry and called on the church leadership to curb his excesses. But he remains a part of the body and a brother, whether you like him or not! We mustn't throw caution to the wind in our eagerness to criticise.

OmoPastor: @ OP
who are the concerned church members? they should come out publicly!
who is the pastor answerable to? the members or God that called him?
if out of nowhere the story is true, what will they do?

all these write-ups are trash!

A pastor is first and foremost accountable to God - true. But like every leader, a pastor has a degree of accountability to the people he/she leads. So yes, in this case, the pastor is "answerable" to the members. Just thought I should correct that notion. I have no comments on the allegation itself.

This is a trend in some parts of the Body and the simple explanation, really, is that such leaders have made church their personal business thus they set up succession plans patterned after family inheritance. But there are those who know the truth that church belongs to God. I am encouraged when I remember the story of Pa Akindayomi, founder of rccg. He listened to God's voice in choosing a successor even though he had grown children and a wife that could take over from him. I believe there are still people like him, few as they may be.

As usual, goshen360 has done justice to this topic so I only have few words to add.

@OP,
You shouldn't be confused because the force of love is superior to the guilt religious folks try to impose. One of the most effective ways of giving to God is to give to the needy, downtrodden and helpless. He that gives to the poor lends to the Lord. Deep within you, you know the right action to take so please do it quickly and watch the Lord reward you. He does not requre any tithe from you but that you lovingly act in justice. Check out His assessment criteria in Matt 25:34-40. I was hungry and you fed me; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and clothed Me, I was sick and in prison and you visited Me. So I ask, why was He silent on tithes? Do these to the least of His brethren who can't reward you on earth and bring gladness to the Lord's heart. It's that simple, friends.

Both Goshen and Pastor Kun have said it all. The Holy Spirit is the Ultimate teacher and His help in understanding God's word cannot be over-emphasised. We need teachers and leaders but the final Authority is the Word.

I suggest chapter by chapter study. A chapter a week. That way, we slowly sip the truth across the books of the bible without rushing through the study.

Straight talk: It’s not natural to give away money to ANY cause – the natural man is selfish and will look for any excuse not to give – the pastor’s diction, the colour of his suit: any excuse not to part with money. Even those who are quick to say “give that money to the poor” sometimes do absolutely nothing to help the poor. Instead, they slander churches for not creating community based projects when they as individuals are not helping the poor in their respective capacities. But on the flip side, the seed-faith doctrine is man-made. We don’t pay God for His blessings. As Crossman rightly said, our blessing is a done deal (Eph 1:3). Ministers fond of raising all kinds of offerings are servants of money and their scams only succeed with the gullible. My point really – give liberally and generously as the Lord leads you. You’ll find that He gently leads us to give towards helping people, not helping a ‘minister’ build his empire.

OmoPastor:
@ opif you pray enough Jesus will tel you what He would have done.
are you a member of the church? if not, please buzz off and stay clear, it does not concern you but if you are a member then do not give if you do not have it
at least you a fair enough to be honest here.
if its voluntary then i see no reason why you should be offended by it.

Please i want to participate in this and i will surely do. its another avenue to give into the kingdom.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread until I saw this remark in highlight. It's shocking that we view church with the lens of denomination. Such a myopic definition! So the OP has no right to pass a comment except he is a "member"? My brother, there is ONE church and any blood-bought member of Christ's body can raise concerns about a part of the same body, so long as the motive is right. Please read 1 Cor 1:11-15. Sectarianism is unscriptural and extremely divisive.

Joagbaje:
Well You're right for once

Was that really necessary?

Well, now that you agree Paul had a pattern of making his hands provide for his needs depite being a 'full time minister', is he a good enough eample for present day ministers who "sacrificially" give up "lucrative jobs" to earn more decent income in 'full time ministry'? Contrary to what you assume, this is no blind criticism. What you call "lay ministry" is the trend we observe in Paul. So where did the salaries come from? We may as well pay every usher, prayer warrior, worship singers etc. If it sounds absurd to pay new testament believers for serving in the Lord's vineyard, it is equally faulty to pay a pastor (priest) based on the unscriptural clergy/laity division that you propose. God's family is a kingdom of priests and kings! We thrive under functional leadership, no doubt, but we don't owe these leaders any salaries.

Let's get something straight. Goshen has raised a point that traditionalists and conformists shy away from. It may rock the boat but the body needs to hear it.

There are missionaries and itinerant ministers who cannot realistically retain their day jobs. This category of ministers have a right to financial support from the church. That right is what Paul chose to let go when he decided to labour with his hands. But there is another category of ministers who have not been called into the mission field. They choose to do what they term 'full-time ministry' and devise a salary structure for themselves. This has no basis in scripture, as Goshen rightly said. I have functioned as an assistant pastor before without giving up my day job. The ministry didn't suffer attention but I didn't have to take any stipend or wage from the church, neither did my pastor or other ministers in church. We all retained our day jobs and did what the Lord would have us do in church without expecting to be paid. Were we 'full time ministers'? Yes. Perhaps not by traditional definition.

That we didn't get paid doesn't make it a rule for all pastors to abide by, but my point here is that 'clergy' salary is scripturally baseless. Pastors do not have to give up paid employment to be effective. The real problem is that we have made ministry a vocation in the 21st century church.

dekung:
I do believe these followers most times make their pastors to sin but it now depends on the pastor to caution them when they are going out of their make him a demigod. I attend a church where the pastor and his wife continually caution members to treat them like normal human beings. In fact the wife told members sometime ago that when she is coming to church no one should bother to collect any baggage she is carrying especially if she is coming with her any of her children. She said she carried by herself from whereever she is coming from so what makes them think she is tired of carrying. Even something as small as her bible people still try to help her carry. The husband on his part is quiet and unassuming, he tries to live a simple ordinary life to the extent that he drives himself and come to church through the same traffic that all other church members drive through despite having a congregation of almost 20,000 members. After church service you can't even tell the difference between pastor and congregation. Despite all these, members still try to outdo themselves in deifying him. On several occassions he had told members that he would rather celebrate his birthday and other anniversaries quitely with his family yet people still go out of their way in planning big budget parties for him. I think both sides share the blame but the congration take a larger part of the blame.

This gives us hope that some church leaders get things right in our dispensation. It is heart-warming, to say the least. Btw, this description fits the leader of a church I know in Oregun. The significant thing is that the couple's simplicity is exemplary. Kudos to them,

stagger:
Let us face the fact. Jesus came into this world PRIMARILY for spiritual redemption. Giving to the poor is a distant second.

I know Muskeeto replied already but I can't ignore this comment. So how do define spiritual redemption if Jesus Himself said He came to give abundant life? Sir, setting the poor free is incorporated in the message of the cross. Justice is the theme Jesus taught which includes catering for the poor and oppressed. When Jesus sent John's disciples back to him in Matt 11, He said "the poor have the gospel preached to them". Shows He spent time ministering to them. When He reeled out His judgement criteria in Matt 25, His words were "I was hungry and you fed me, ". If you attempt to separate the salvation experience from our responsibility to the poor or relegate it to the background, then you nullify scripture sir. Jesus' ministry defined in Isaiah 61:1 has the poor as core. Read through scripture and this truth will stare at you.

goshen360:
YOU HAVE SPOKEN WELL LIKE A TRUE CHRISTIAN UNLIKE OTHER MEMBERS OF RCCG WHO COME HERE TO ELEVATE PST ADEBOYE WITHOUT A REASONABLE THING TO SAY. I PERSONALLY REASON WITH YOUR EXPLANATIONS PLUS THE FACT THAT YOU ARE CLOSER TO THE LEADERSHIP. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT B'COS I USED TO BE CLOSE TO ONE OF THE RCCG PASTOR WHEN I WAS IN FEDERAL POLY , OFFA BEFORE MOVING TO THE UNITED STATES.

@ goshen360, you are a solid personality and your maturity comes through in the way you write. I want to engage you and Muskeeto outside this forum but as you may have noticed, I am not a frequent NL user. I imagine there is an inbox facility of some sort here. If there's none, any ideas on how we can rub minds?
Thanks also to jencejyde for being objective in the end. Bottomline is that Christ has built His church (not just a denomination) on the foundation of Truth and the gates of hell won't prevail againt our onslaught.

stagger:
Spitting in the air, I love that phrase.

My own is if they like, let them spit in the air, but the day someone will spit in my backyard is the day we will know who is who, just like two fellows who usurped my land in the village and are today buried in it after they both went to bed and did not wake up in the same month.

They apparently did not know the import of the statement: the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. They stole my land, and I simply asked God to effect the verse:

"dust you are, and to dust you shall return".

Some people here do not know the power in God's name, until they decide to challenge it openly and face the consequences.

So please, make una spit for air o! Not in my backyard!

@Stagger, this is the Spirit I see in Christ - When the sons of Zebedee asked Him to call fire from heaven and consume an entire village, He replied that the Son of Man came to give life, not destroy it. So I ask you, in what spirit do you operate? You seem so confident in quoting a scripture that applies to all human beings which is perfect example of proof texting. With all due respect, your submission doesn't demonstrate a heart of love that defines the Christian experience and you are the kind of person that threatens opposing parties with curses. Let's focus on truth here and not be overzealous in defending our views. As Sovpounds said earlier, let God be true and let Him alone be the Judge of His church.
Btw, something exciting about this thread is that Christians are challenging the status quo without any fear of being cursed. It doesn't make us perfect overnight but the TRUTH certainly sets us free from slavery mindsets.

Joagbaje:
You have much to learn in my opinion. You should dwell on the Word of God rather than assumptions. Why do you you are right and churches are wrong. We have one common ground . The scriptures , which us our authority.Study it yourself and judge your assumptions by it.

@ Joagbaje, in my opinion, Earswide made a solid statement that church leaders cannot fool their members for much longer. People are starting to ask questions about the lavish lifestyles of modern day pastors. So I think you have a lesson or two to learn about that too. Anyone (pastor or not) that creates wealth at the expense of poor people is wicked. Plain truth! Having said that, I have no doubt there are genuine servants of God who serve Him in truth without extorting money from their congregations. Such men constitute the minority.