Papist:

You really don't believe that the crusades were Christianity vs Islam? Then listen to the words of Pope Urban II while calling for the first crusade. No political correctness in this speech:
"

He forgot to tell his Crusaders then, because they killed countless Jews and Orthodox Christians alike.

Papist:

You have also clearly bought into much of the secular propaganda about the inquisitions. You know the secular agenda of promoting the idea that Christianity is a violent religion just like, if not worse than Islam. I suggest you find unbiased real scholarly work, not internet postings and timelines.

What exactly are you trying to say? The Inquisition never happened?

Ubenedictus:

You gat to put your thinking cap on.

1. What constitutes a just war are the intentions of the war, you may take your time and study the just war theory as propounded by St Thomas of Aquinas. A just reason to take arms is to defend the oppressed against an unjust agressor. In this case the Islamic empire was the unjust oppressor occupying a soveign soil, placing its people under servitude while discriminating against them with it Islamic law, not to talk of acts of intoleration against Christians both pilgrims and natives like the issue of the holy sepucher. Thus the war was for all intent just, the pope had all the right reasons to call a crusade. Even at that wars-even just wars- come with colateral damage, unwanted casualty and atrocities of all sorts, the crusade had these and for such occurances a Christian will gladly apologise. That doesn distract from d fact that the crusades were called for a just reason, we can't say the same for the jihad.

2. The holy land has both Jew, Muslims, Christians and even atheist, they are ruled by a government of their choosing that respects their rights without discriminating against those who believe differently or burn their worship place, even Pligrims are allowed access and protection, their is no just reason for me to "gather an army" as you say to attack, that wouldnt be just. It seems you have managed to confuse issues in your mind.

You need a course in History. Any time Christians conquered the Holy Land, they allowed only people of similar faith into the land. Only Muslims allowed Jews and people of other faith live with them. The Muslims eventually drove out the Crusaders. That's the reason any diversity exists there today.

You're blinded by your faith. These guys bleeped up big time in the name of Christ. The Pope has apologised profusely for it. "Never again", he said.

Move on and quit trying to defend atrocities.

Ubenedictus:
because, no matter how just the intention, there are excesses in wars! War carries an unwholesome bagage called innocent casualties an unrully soldiers committing attrocities. These are issues that christians are sorry 4.

I'm struggling to find sense in what you're saying. They went there with the intention to kill people of other faith. And they did just that. Muslims, Jews, Orthodox Christians murdered. It was evil. Despicable.

If you're so certain the Crusades were "justified". Well guess what? The 'holy land' currently inhabited by Muslims and Jews. Why don't you gather your army and join in the crimes of people you're struggling so hard to defend.

You're no different from "holy war" jihadists - Emancipation of the darkness of religious delusion in its worst form.

winner01:
Its almost impossible to find a christian that hadnt doubted his belief at a time.
God be my witness, I had serious doubts at a younger age even before i knew what atheism meant. I felt reluctant to go to church, what if all these isnt real, is this power really potent.
But I bless God for his grace in directing my steps such that i didnt find solace in evil.
And its not cos you were born a christian, even born atheists target christianity, worse still muslim turned atheists too. You only got what you wanted not that christianity is bull, and now, your past still seems to haunt you. Why not fully embrace your newly found "logic". And dont forget to show your peeps your newly found goldmine.
Its strange init? .

The thing that tells you right from wrong, has it been scientifically proven with the popular "humanist" belief that "morality is subjective" . Did humanity reach a concensus to determine right from wrong, Where do infants learn evil, from the womb? Does right has any universal guage? Why do youths prefer exhuberance and hate it when their parents demand accountability?
You're screwed right.
I see you've started your indoctrination atheism anthem. Dont worry, ive heared many others like marriage is a scam, democracy is a scam etc in a bid to get a non existent ideal environment. Its only funny that you dont think we were also indoctrinated with what you refer to as "good".

I agree that Right and wrong existed right from creation (at least, you are not an atheist who believes that conscience is as a result of a chaotic explosion) before the rise of religion.
And i keep saying religion is not the way, but God.
The existence of demons dosent justify the inexistence of the Creator, its just an excuse for men to have their way and remain unaccountable.
Maybe you should give me "rational" reasons why i should stick with one woman when i can have several sweet ladies or why i wont cheat in exams if it will make me succeed.
lol
It dont matter though, A hundred years after your death, the bible will still be consistent with the ideal human philosophy.

Call it ignorance, delusional, indoctrination or whatever.
The truth resurrected and couldnt be buried back then, What makes you think it will be buried today.
God is God.

1. I don't believe in "creation" like your bible tells it. Evolution is true, whether you choose to believe it or not.

2. Your God is your God. And exists inside your head alone.

3. I've lived a lot better since I stopped blaming 'demons and evil spirits' for my misdeeds.

4. If you truly want to learn about if humans are born as evil beings in need of moral or religious guidance, as opposed to naturally ethical creatures corrupted by society; Then I suggest you take up a course in the Philosophy of human nature.

5. I imagine you're African. Has it occurred to you that your ancestors were living in relative harmony before the white man brought this his God along with colonialism?

winner01:
Reality stares at you. Its why you arnt in islams section.
Its 5000 gods according to most atheists and they arnt made up. I suppose you thought the demons that fell with lucifer all went into hiding.
We can do a little case study on nairaland for instance. The God that satanists, atheists, agnostics, spiritualists, alien believers, and nothing-believers like you are constantly against is the true God, ill leave you to determine who that God is.
No matter what evil or nothing sect you think you belong, it pitches you against the true God by default. Its why you uncontrollably talk against this God even when you claim to have the same feeling for other gods.
You choose evil by rejecting the good, you choose failure by refusing to suceed, you choose death by rejecting life. Its the default setting of the world created by God.

Now you have shifted from "evidence" to the"multiple religion" theory. Dont worry, its called conscience, it makes you conscious of a greater authority. You can fight it all you want. Religion is false, God is God

“The current intellectual assault on God in Europe and North America is in fact a specific attack on Christianity – the faith that stubbornly persists in the morality, laws, and government of the major Western countries. . . .The God they fight is the Christian God, because He is their own God. . . .God is the leftists’ chief rival. Christian belief, by subjecting all men to divine authority and by asserting in the words ‘My kingdom is not of this world’ that the ideal society does not exist in this life, is the most coherent and potent obstacle to secular utopianism. . . . the Bible angers and frustrates those who believe that the pursuit of a perfect society justifies the quest for absolute power.”- Peter Hitchens

Maybe you're right. Maybe I have a slight inclination towards targeting Christianity more than any other mindless religion.
But that's because I was born into Christianity, indoctrinated into the mental shackles until I learnt enough about the world to realize it was all bullshit. That's right. I used to be you. And I continue to be surrounded by people infected by this colonial mental illness.

But then, every man is entitled to his delusion. And so are you.

Just so you know, there's something inside you that tells you right from wrong, and allows you to feel empathy. It existed before religion, and will remain afterwards.

Even after I lost my faith and found reason, my conscience stayed. So labeling religious as good, and non religious as evil, is plain ignorance.

Annunaki:


The so called Nation you are talking about was already under occupation by the jihadist. The crusaders went there to eject the criminals that occupied the holy land and that was definitely a good cause. I repeat you are a hypocrite for refusing to acknowledge the fact that Jerusalem was first attacked and captured by the jihadists. It's funny that it is the crusaders that went to liberate them that you are castigating.

That went to liberate who from what please? The Christians' only concern was the piece of land. There was no-one forcefully under captivity that needed liberating.

You need a proper history class.

And you still haven't answered my question. What about the inquisitions? What's your "justification" for that?

winner01:

Say what you will but we have a standard which is Jesus Christ.
Anybody can claim to be christian, and still desperately go against God.
mormons, Jws, catholics all claim to be christian when their beliefs are vividly different from the teachings of Christ.
Satanists have churches, even atheists now have mega-churches. I dont see any one of these people create a "mosque or shrine" for their "beliefs" or "unbelief", people who supposedly are against "religion".
Could it be in a bid to seperate the christians from Christ.

Only one who isnt grounded in the scriptures wont understand what is really going on.

Y'all say you're against religion but your heart says differently.
Turns out your hearts have been quickened to rebel against the one true God.
I know its beyond your control, if this is not proof of supernatural demonic posession then i dont know what is.

If really "all religions are delusional" like you say, then prove it, balance the hate.
Prove that you physically have the capacity to break away from demonic posession, prove that you can contend with evil and prevail.

This God, your God, Our God is the true God.
There is darkness and light, good and evil, life and death. You get to choose because of your freewill. There is no sitting on the fence. Choose life, that you might live.

Happy new year in advance.

I swear you're funny.

Your God, out of the 3000 others, is the one true God. All others are made up ones, all trying to distract people from serving the only real God, your God.

I get it. But don't you think it's funny that people of other faith will say the exact same thing?

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." Mark Twain.

It's easier to fool a man, than to convince him that he's been fooled.

Annunaki:


Obviously you lack comprehension skills, there is a clear and distinct difference btw the crusades which were defensive in nature and the jihads which were and is still offensive. Drawing a parallel btw the two is the height of intellectual dishonesty.

Okay. The Christian murders (INVADING A NATION AND KILLING PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITH) are defensive, and hence okay but Muslim murders are barbaric. I get it.

But You didn't answer my question. What about the inquisitions? What's your "justification" for those killings?

winner01:
Firstly change the topic to catholicisms violent past.

Secondly, christians are (People like Christ, i.e Christ-like) People who strive to be like Christ.
Well, we all know the kind of life Christ lived and so we can judge who was working for whom.

Thirdly and more interestingly, chizzled06 is not an atheist (at least, according to what he told me) He belongs to "somewhere" hes not really sure of.
But why is he against christianity (as vivid in some of his other posts), isnt it funny considering the fact that he's not an atheist .

Atheists against christianity
spiritualists against christianity
Satanists against christianity
Solipsists against christianity
Deists will tell u "any god but the God of christianity"
Even People like ifeness who believe aliens are responsible for humanity are also against christianity.

Hell, these people claim to be against religion, not just christianity, but it gets clearer whom their hearts are quickened against.

And that really got me thinking, Could Christianity be the only threat to unaccountability, self worship, evil and insanity.

Its seems to be some sort of "great wall of china" standing in the way of the selfish and wicked desires of men and their terrible realisations. Its understandable.

Keep up the wasted efforts though.

"Those are other Christians. Not my kind of Christianity. They are not real Christians"

Exactly what this post is about. I'm not blaming you for their crimes. Just putting things into context to make you understand things from a honest Muslim's perspective.

All religions are delusions. Including yours. Organised religion is manipulative and ultimately harmful in its worst form.

But hating a religion doesn't mean I should hate its followers. They are the real victims.

Annunaki:


I had earlier acknowledged that there were some excesses on the part of the crusaders during the crusades which the pope has now apologised for and I clearly condemn the excesses as well but the overall motive of the crusades was very honourable. In any war there is what you call collateral damage.

You are lost, my friend. No different from jihadists who view their killings as "holy war"

And what about the Inquisitions? How do you "justify" those murders?

true2god:
Dont mind the grand hypocrite. He spoke as if the crusade and inquisition happened spontaneously without a reason. A thief come to my house to rob and kill me (for the sake of allahh) but unfortunately for the armed robber I over-powered him and killed him.

According to Chizzled06's psychotic reasoning the armed robber (who came to my house to rob and kill me as commanded by allahh and mohammed in quran 9:29) is innocent while I (the crusader) am guilty for defending myself which led to the death of the armed robber (islamic jihadist).

Chizzle06 neeeds a proper psychometric test.

What about the thousands of Jews and orthodox Christians killed during the Crusades? What's your deluded excuse for their murder?

Annunaki:


Stop talking rubbish, the crusaders went to Jerusalem to liberate it from the marauding jihadists who had earlier captured Jerusalem. If you are not the hypocrite that you are, you should have first condemned the islamist who invaded jerusalem before the crusaders went to liberate them.

You don't seem to understand that the crusaders killed Jews, and Christians from other sects during the Crusades. This wasn't just Christianity vs Islam. Please try to educate yourself.

chiedu7:


Lets assume they DID in the past, moslems are blowing people up NOW!

The evil we face NOW is Islam,

Islam is the only religion in the world the endorses violence


Soon now you'll look for me to blow me upr

Well guess what? Christians are shooting people up NOW too!!

Most archaic religions with holy texts endorse violence. If you follow the bible word for word, you should be murdering all your neighbours with foreign beliefs. This was what "justified" the Crusades, Inquisitions and other crimes committed buy Christian fundamentalists till today.

Honestly, I'm at war with all organised religions alike; Christianity, Islam etc because they're all primarily delusional and can breed dangerous extremism.

Again the point of this post is you can disagree with a faith, but not blame all its followers for the acts of a few.

true2god:
You are yarning rubish man, what is the reason for the crusade?

Are you asking for a remedial history lesson, or is there a point you are trying to make?

Richirich713:


Without God, morality doesn't truly exist.

Its all subjective.

You underestimate the spirit of humanity.

Annunaki:


The pope apologised for the excesses committed by the crusaders and not for for the crusades itself. The crusades were 100% justifiable and you owe your freedom to it today.

How you can term the invasion of a nation because of the significance of its land to your faith as "100% justifiable" is beyond me. You are no worse than any extremist murderer.

If you think your freedom today is indebted to crusader murders, you are lost. You need to take a course in human history, especially religion.

true2god:
You are talking rubish man. The Pope apologized, not because the inqusition was wrong, but because innocent souls were lost. If the muslims had not invaded and occupied spain there will be no inquistion.

Has the grand-mufti of saudi arabia apologize for the islamic invasion, murder and looting of spain? The language you muslims understand is force, no apology. Mr hypocrite!

1. I am not a Muslim

2. The inquisitions began in attempt to conquer sectarianism by the church. Christians killed Christians for proclamations against the Catholic doctrine. Anyone who claimed there was no God was burned at the stake. Hardly any mention of Islam.

3. You've clearly gotten your "facts" from some Christian extremist blogs. Read a book

chiedu7:


Christians will tell you that the jews own the Holy Land.

Moslems though your own quoran say's that Israel belongs to Jews, moslems want to kill all jews in israel

Surah 17
Say (unto them): If ye possessed the treasures of the mercy of my Lord, ye would surely hold them back for fear of spending, for man was ever grudging. (100)
And verily We gave unto Moses nine tokens, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty). Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them, then Pharaoh said unto him: Lo! I deem thee one bewitched, O Moses. (101)

He said: In truth thou knowest that none sent down these (portents) save the Lord of the heavens and the earth as proofs, and lo! (for my part) I deem thee lost, O Pharaoh. (102)
And he wished to scare them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him, all together. (103) And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations. (104)



Surah 5
And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures. (20) O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers: (21) They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then). (22)

So why did the Christian crusaders kill Jews during their invasions?

No matter how deep into Christianity you go, you'll always find varying, unclear answers to these your questions.

It may help to learn that a lot of these Christian teachings that you now hold as unshakeable truth were made up along the way. Try to do YOUR OWN research based on facts and develop YOUR OWN truth.

Live your life right and try to be at peace with your conscience. If you can't shake off your idea of a supreme creator, you can find refuge in the belief that you'll see him and ask all the questions you want at death.

chiedu7:
1] The Crusades was the catholic church trying to rescue the Holy Land from Moslems
2] The Crusades were in the PAST!
3] The Islamic Jihad has been going on since Mohammed uptil NOW

Rescue? That smells of ignorance and bigotry.
The 'Holy Land' is a pilgrimage site for THREE religions. It belongs to its inhabitants, not some self righteous Christians from Rome.

Past or present, they are all barbaric.

Again, the point of this post is that you can't blame everyone involved in a religion for the crimes of a few mindless ones.

Richirich713:

The biggest mistake religious people make is to think that without their faith, ethics and morals wouldn't exist.

Ubenedictus:
U are equating a just war, a war with the intent of self defense to ur suicide bombing jihad...

If you view the crusades as 'just war', why do you think the Pope needed to apologize?

Ubenedictus:
the inquisition is different from d crusades dont mix them together.

The pope apologised for d excesses of christian military activities, he never equated the crusade, which were defensive forces to muslim extremism.

Nobody is equating anything. They are all unethical and barbaric acts that deserve condemnation.

All I'm saying is don't blame all Muslims for the extremism of a relative minority. Especially if you're unwilling to accept blame for the bloodshed on the hands of the church.

Ubenedictus:


the crusade werent jihads, they were mostly intended defensive wars, i daresay, just wars, and yes western xtianity and civilisation owe its existences to those crusades. The catholic church didnt have an option, u either fight or becom slave.

But all wars have d potential to tend towards excesses, dat is why wars are to be avoided, d crusade was no exception to excesses.
But it is great ignorance to equate muslim extremism to d defensive crusade.


O.p the christian didnt engineer d plague how come dat is also in ur post?

The plague was blamed on Jews and sparked renewed antisemitic violence.

Annunaki:


Also note that the crusades unlike jihad was never for the spread of religion rather it was for the defence of the sovereignty of European lands. It's immaterial that the crusades were endorsed by the catholic church. The only offensive action the crusaders took was to liberate jerusalem from the satanists that had earlier occupied it.

Really? Do you choose to be that ignorant?

And the Inquisitions too, I guess? An innocent ploy to rid threatened Christians nations of harmful unbelievers?


Even the Pope has apologised for these. You're in too deep, my friend

Annunaki:
Nonsense bull sh.it al taquiya spreading thread. Even m0rons know that the glorious crusades were initiated as a defensive force to protect europe from evil marauding jihadists who had over ran Spain and were threatening the rest of europe. The crusaders also did a good job of ridding jerusalem of the satanists(muslims) who had occupied jerusalem several decades before the first crusade. It is to the credit of the crusaders that the satanic jihads were halted in europe and we remain grateful to them till this day for their sacrifice. It's disingenuous for modern day fraudulent muslims to try and turn the story around and give the false impression that it was the crusaders that started the problem.

Innocent blood was shed in the pursuit of religion. Justifying killing people because of difference in ideology exudes lack of empathy.

Have a rethink, brother. Try to reexamine the historic facts from a neutral perspective, from the Crusades to the Inquisitions. These things are as clear as day.

No-one is blaming you for the crimes of past Christians, only asking that you don't blame other good Muslims for the extremism of the heartless few.

I'm not a fan of any religion, Christianity and Islam alike, but that doesn't curb my spirit of humanity towards Christians and Muslims.

These days, the rampant extremism in Islam has given some Christians a new stick with which to beat Muslims.

Religion is personal, faith is dear to the one who holds it, and holding every Muslim accountable for the actions of a (relatively minor) sect is ignorant, especially if you're a Christian.

Christianity has a shady past. They don't teach you these things in Sunday school because it's shameful and embarrassing. This is a brief history lesson, so that Christians guilty of this ignorant finger-pointing can pause and reflect.



The Crusades were Christian wars against non-Christians, and even against Christians of a somewhat different persuasion, staged between 1095 and 1248. No educated Christian can ignore the shame that the Crusades have brought on the Christian church, especially in the eyes of Jews and Moslems. Modern evangelical churches sometimes use the word Crusade to describe an outreach program in their local area, overlooking the fact that Jews and Moslems associate the concept of a crusade as an attack of terror on their communities.


A brief history of the Crusades
... the conditions that led to their launch, and the consequences.


ca 1050 AD [/b]onwards
Resurgence of wealth in Europe after the Dark Ages led to new confidence in the Christian Empire.

[b]1095
The Emperor in Constantinople, capital of the eastern half of the Christian Empire, called for help in his campaigns against growing Moslem strength.
Pope Urban II in Rome called on Christians in Europe to join a crusade to liberate Jerusalem from the Moslems.

1096
Crusaders marched in several armies towards the Holy Land. In cities across Europe they slaughtered defenceless Jews.
The first armies arrived at Constantinople and crossed the Bosphorus to attack the Turks. One of those armies, that of Peter the Hermit, was massacred.
Multitudes died, many of starvation, in the two-year march to Jerusalem.

1099
Crusaders from Europe conquered Jerusalem, slaughtering Moslems, Jews and eastern Orthodox Christians alike.

1101-1144
Crusader states were established in the Holy Land.

1140-1300
Period of building the great Gothic cathedrals in Europe – dedicated mostly to the virgin Mary, and some to saints, being places where relics of these people were stored. Pilgrimages to such shrines were thought to bring power for answers to prayer.
The cathedrals were the most visible display of the “church triumphant.”

1146-1148
Second Crusade – a failure.

1187
Moslems led by Saladin reconquered Jerusalem.

1189-1192
Third Crusade – a failure.

1200-1204
Fourth Crusade – Latin Christians from Europe, and an army financed by Venetian merchants, conquered the eastern Orthodox centre of Constantinople, killing “fellow Christians” and taking the treasures of Byzantium to palaces in Europe.
Although the armies of Rome withdrew some decades later, allowing the Orthodox Christians to re-settle Constantinople, the eastern half of the Christian Empire was so weakened that it easily fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.
The city was renamed Istanbul.
To this day the country of Turkey represents the major boundary between Europe and the Moslem domination of the Middle East.

1209-1229
Albigensian Crusade in Europe.
Heresy took hold in southern France and, through military conquest, Rome forced its exclusive right to interpret and deliver doctrine.

1219-1221
Fifth Crusade to “save” the Holy Land – a failure.

1229
Sixth Crusade – a failure.

1231
Start of the Inquisition – the church’s attempt to enforce doctrinal orthodoxy throughout Christendom.

1248
Seventh Crusade – a failure.

1252
Pope Innocent IV sanctioned the use of torture to extract truth from suspects brought before the Inquisitors.

1347-1350
Black death – bubonic plague killed one-third of the population of Europe.

March 2000
Pope John Paul II admitted the sins of the Catholic Church going back to the Crusades and the Inquisition and, in a sermon that was broadcast live to the world, asked for forgiveness.


“Humanity has been grappling with these questions throughout human history. And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.” - Barack Obama, February 2015



Now, if you research the numbers, Christianity has shed more blood in the name of its God than any other religion can ever dream of.

Faith is personal. Everyone has a conscience. Good people will be good people, regardless of where their faith lies.

winner01:
Ignorance lol..
Call it what you will dude.

Im talking about the Bible, the Word of God.
You know what to do when you are looking for a credible source of scientific theories, Do the same research for the Bible. You'll find what you seek.

Exactly. I did the same for the bible, and found out it was all balderdash.

winner01:
Sir Ambrose Flemming , British electrical engineer and inventor, 1849-1945
“We must not build on the sands of an uncertain and everchanging science…but upon the rock of inspired Scriptures.”

That book is rock solid. Lies upon lies of its compromise, the rise of several demonic denominations, Similarly patterened religion and other negatives are part of the attempts to bring it down. That book should have been dead decades ago, except for a single fact, It is Gods word just like Francis Bacon said.

So dude, do your research and stop bringing up the issue of counterfeit, its a lame way of discrediting the scriptures.

Okay, it seems you're lost in a pool of your own ignorance already. Let me make this easier for you with a list of the most popular options. Which of these bibles do you refer to?

-The Orthodox Bible,
-The Catholic Bible or
-The Protestant Bible

winner01:
The bible of the sect which constantly frown in the face of immorality, stands in the way of lawlessness and evil, emphasizes the kingdom of God and encourages the consciousness/fear of God.

You're beating around the bush. There is no single canonical "Bible": many Bibles have evolved, with overlapping and diverging contents. Different Christian denominations have different bibles.Please, Which are you referring to, so that we can move on?

winner01:
The one that still stands tall through centuries of scrutiny, skepticism and all sorts of attacks.

But there are different Christian bibles. The bible of which sect do you refer to?