₦airaland Forum

You didn't answer my questions

oteneaaron:
Which came first?

The "Bible" as you know it today contains only 66 books.

In the new testament, there are only four Gospels.

But did you know that there were over 20 gospels and the Catholic Church only selected the four gospels as Canon, and that is why you currently have them in the Bible today?

Have you heard of the Gospel of Thomas, Mary, and Judas Iscariot?

Kindly go and read about the Nag Hammadi Scriptures that were dug out of a cave in ancient Egypt.

I know the history about these gospel books. No books were written by Thomas, Mary and Judas. Those books were authored by someone else.

oteneaaron:
Which came first?

The "Bible" as you know it today contains only 66 books.

In the new testament, there are only four Gospels.

But did you know that there were over 20 gospels and the Catholic Church only selected the four gospels as Canon, and that is why you currently have them in the Bible today?

Have you heard of the Gospel of Thomas, Mary, and Judas Iscariot?

Kindly go and read about the Nag Hammadi Scriptures that were dug out of a cave in ancient Egypt.

When were these myths written and who started them?
How did Jews get access to these Egyptian materials?
Are there no chances that the myths about Horus was copied from the BIBLE?

oteneaaron:
Which came first?

Ancient Egypt that literally gave the world everything it knows today, or the Bible that was compiled later on?

I have also seen someone say Jesus and the new testament were the work of the Romans but now it's the Egyptian

Now how did the myths about Horus match with the prophecies in the old testament?
Is the old testament full of myths too?

oteneaaron:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1CWBKRWIg0

The video above breaks down many of the myths, and symbology that about Jesus and Christianity that were copied from the ancient Egyptian Mystery Religion.

I am not done yet.

Give me some time to submit my findings and my own part of the argument.

I am just getting started.

We thought you already have it figured out.
Did you start doing your research?

oteneaaron:
Lol.

Good things take time.

No rush.

I will be updating the thread as I go.

This has not been an easy research to embark on.

It has taken me months to study the materials related to the above subject matter.

So there is nothing wrong in me taking my time to submit my own part of the argument.

Are these also myths or real events?
What's your proof that these stories/myths weren't copied from the Bible?

oteneaaron:
To begin our investigation into whether the story of Jesus is not real but just a myth, let us first learn about the Mythology of similar God-Men from antiquity.

We shall begin from ancient Egypt (in Northern AFRICA)

As we already know, ancient Egypt is the home of the world's oldest religion that were termed as the "mystery cults".

Please note that it was only after the Rosetta Stone was found in July 1799 that archeologists and scholars were finally able to decipher what was written in stone by the ancient Egyptians.

See - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone

After translations were done, it was found out that on the walls of the temple of LUXOR in ancient Egypt, that the hieroglyphs spoke about a dying and resurecting God-man - and this was at the heart of the ancient Egyptian Mystery Religion.

And also by studying some ancient texts like the Egyptian Book of the Dead, we learn that it was a long held teaching in ancient Egypt, that each human had a spark of the divine deep inside them.

The goal of the mystery religion of ancient Egypt was in helping each adherent realize their own divinity, and to help them fully understand this, the mystery religion was dramatized as the myth of the God-man called HORUS.

HORUS was also known as IUSA or ISUSU and according to the ancient mysteries,

1. Horus was born of a Virgin called Meri

2. Like the “star in the east” of the Gospels, Sirius, the morning star in Egypt, heralded the birth of Horus.

3. Horus was baptized in the River Eridanus by a god figure named Anup the Baptizer, who was later beheaded.

4. Horus had no history between the ages of twelve and thirty.

5. Horus walked on water, cast out demons, and healed the sick.

6. Horus was crucified between two thieves, buried in a tomb, and resurrected. His personal epithet was Iusa (or Iusu), the “ever-becoming son” of Ptah, or the Father.

7. Horus has 12 disciples which represented the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

8. Horus was born in cave and 3 wise men/magi came to pay him homage...

Your not wrong bro!

Andy15:
The Bible’s answer
Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”

In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages:

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.

What is the origin of the myth?
“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”​—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.

“The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”​—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386.

What does the Bible say?
“Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God’s right hand. ‘Look! I can see heaven thrown open,’ he said, ‘and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.’”​—Acts 7:55, 56, The New Jerusalem Bible.

What did this vision reveal? Filled with God’s active force, Stephen saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.” Clearly, then, Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection to heaven but, rather, a distinct spiritual being. There is no mention of a third person next to God in this account. Despite attempts to find passages of Scripture to support the Trinity dogma, Dominican priest Marie-Émile Boismard wrote in his book À l’aube du christianisme​—La naissance des dogmes (At the Dawn of Christianity—​The Birth of Dogmas): “The statement that there are three persons in the one God . . . cannot be read anywhere in the New Testament.”

The dogma that Constantine championed was intended to put an end to dissensions within the fourth-century Church. However, it actually raised another issue: Was Mary, the woman who bore Jesus, “the Mother of God”?

Compare these Bible verses: Matthew 26:39; John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28; Colossians 1:15, 16

FACT:
The Trinitarian dogma is a late fourth-century invention
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2009804&srcid=share
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=502012486&srcid=share

Lol you are trapped.
If you chose that Jesus is myth, you know we will hold and use that against you. If you chose otherwise, your gonna loose a lot of friends

Dont be afraid na say you mind before it's too late

achorladey:
Your brother was agitating the Jesus was the same Jesus for all other Christians earlier he forget that he always say his Jesus is different from all others

You just want to be sure . I rather keep you in suspension or on uncertainty. Go and seek your sureness elsewhere.

All my sorries were for you Achorladey

achorladey:
Learn you no gree. Face discussion no. You started with.....



I responded with.........



You went ahead with it.......



and since you cannot get the desired response you enter into.......



and added.....



Good for you, not a problem of mine. Even when you support Max that those you speak to here on this platform are useless and hopeless apostates and workers of LAWLESSNESS and INIQUITIES has that added 50 billion into your account from the central bank of Nigeria

Learn before you start going into we don't have to be like this and start saying sorry for yourself again

Lol simple question you can't answer and I hope your fruitless argument here has made you a fortune

MaxInDHouse:
He is a disguised atheist so don't expect him to say Jesus really exist!

That's why I said it's not hard. No need to fear. He should just say it here that Jesus didn't exist ha!

Nobody is soliciting for your support baba.
I just wanna be sure whose side you are; Max or oteneaaron.

Was Jesus a real person or a myth?

achorladey:
Anything you will use for your self righteousness and self glorification




Now he wants support from useless, hopeless, disguised atheists, apostates and his fellow brother in Jehovah is seeking for support or against using question




What are you still doing on this thread and seeking support from workers of INIQUITIES and LAWLESSNESS

achorladey:
Anything you will use for your self righteousness and self glorification




Now he wants support from useless, hopeless, disguised atheists, apostates and his fellow brother in Jehovah is seeking for support or against using question




What are you still doing on this thread and seeking support from workers of INIQUITIES and LAWLESSNESS

This question no hard na:

Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

I would only say sorry if I offended you Achorladey

achorladey:
I am sorry go soon follow now. Oga keep peddling your hypocritic veil on whether Jesus is a myth or not

Oga don start again o
Ped peddler pedddlest

Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?


I support what Max said that Jesus was a real historically figure.

Max or oteneaaron?

achorladey:
What difference does it make to the post and to the question paapaa

Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

Baba remove this your hypocritic veil and let's see your face

There's no way he could prove that Horus existed 2000 years before Christ and did the miracles Christ did.
Is he saying someone already fufilled the prophecies about Christ right before the prophecies were revealed and written?

MaxInDHouse:
I never wanted to waste my time doing this but he kept spewing gibberish as if he has gotten everything figured out to prove that Jesus never really walk on this planet:



I never thought he will come here and start messing around instead of presenting all the results of his hopeless research!

achorladey:
In cornelboy's voice

It's nothing if you chose to avoid the question.
You literally responded to my post but only looking for ways to ignore that question

Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

Max or oteneaaron?

Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

achorladey:
At least I know you have established that una byes no dey finish.



Good you know

He's still gathering his evidences.

MaxInDHouse:
Because Jesus performed miracles shouldn't erase the fact that he lived just like every other man. He was flesh and blood! 2John 1:7
So let nobody compare Jesus to any mythical figure that's not related to any known race, father or mother, birth place, friends and modern day adherents!

Stupidity is like you conclude on whatever you heard without considering the MOTIVES in the minds of the teller!

Una byes no dey finish.

No be by force to respond na?

The above is not an answer to the question you highlighted

You say wetin?
[quote author=achorladey post=110597413][/quote]Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

AntiChristian:
Bring the Bible verse that says Joseph copulated with Mary to give birth to Jesus. Cos that's the only way they can be related by blood!

We all know that Jesus was conceived without copulation. He had an earthly father Joseph the husband of Mary. Mary had other sons aside Jesus.

He didn't need to be his biological father before he could father him.

achorladey:
Has my discussion with you on this platform or this thread centre on Jesus is a myth or not?

Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

Worship is not paying homage or prostrating to someone! Worship is defined as the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. Stop distorting narrations to suite your whims!

I thought you said prostration is very important while praying? Abi praying is not part of worship?

Who worshiped Jesus as a deity in the Bible

There were instances where he was worshipped. Even God commanded angels to worship him.

AntiChristian:
[/highlight]



?

If Jesus was a myth, definitely the whole of Christianity was built on lie.

Do you also think that Jesus is a myth?

achorladey:
He should accept before you even prove that you are the one and only christian group.

This thread is Oteneaaron own proof that you are not. You cannot even counter the video or other issues related yet and you still want him to just accept gbam that you are the one and only true Christians

Are you now saying that Allah is not God? Or he's different from the God of Moses and Jesus?

AntiChristian:
Farawa (Genesis) 1:1-10 Allah appears 11 times in 10 verses
1A sa'ad da Allah ya fara halittar Sama da duniya, 2duniya ba ta da siffa, sarari ce kawai, duhu kuwa yana lulluɓe da fuskar zurfin teku, Ruhun Allah kuma yana shawagi bisa ruwayen. 3 Allah ya ce, “Bari haske ya kasance,” sai kuwa ya kasance. 4 Allah ya ga hasken yana da kyau. Allah ya raba tsakanin hasken da duhu, 5ya ce da hasken, “Yini,” duhu kuwa, “Dare.” Ga maraice, ga safiya, kwana ɗaya ke nan.
6 Allah ya ce, “Bari sarari ya kasance tsakanin ruwaye, don ya raba tsakaninsu.” 7 Allah kuwa ya yi sarari, ya kuma raba tsakanin ruwayen da suke ƙarƙashin sararin da ruwayen da suke birbishin sararin. Haka nan kuwa ya kasance. 8 Allah ya ce da sarari, “Sararin sama.” Ga maraice, ga safiya, kwana na biyu ke nan.
9 Allah kuwa ya ce, “Bari ruwayen da suke ƙarƙashin sararin su tattaru wuri ɗaya, bari kuma sandararriyar ƙasa ta bayyana.” Haka nan kuwa ya kasance. 10 Allah ya ce da sandararriyar ƙasar, “Duniya,” tattaruwan ruwayen da aka tara kuwa, ya ce da su, “Tekuna.” Allah ya ga yana da kyau.

It doesn't matter if you don't understand Hausa Bible of Genesis 1:1-10.
Christians would agree they don't worship Allah but why would these Christian translators use Allah so much in the Hausa Bible?

I guess this is a plot to deceive the unsuspecting Hausas to accept Christianity just as Grape juice was used to replace wine in the Bible.

How did Jesus prayed and how did others prayed? Do Christians bow like that to God nowadays at any time?

Jesus never did that in the public or in the synagogue. And i know you haven't followed every christians to their bedroom.

What was Jesus's Language Aramaic? It is Elaha or Aloha similar to Allah in Arabic. Hebrew is El as you said. All these languages are semitic languages with similar roots. These you can't find to be false!

I told you 'el' the word for god in Hebrew can be used for anything that's mighty/strong.
El is a general/common name for any god but
Jehovah is the name of our GOD.

Where is the Proof?

Check my last post on religion thread, you will see how Satan revealed part of the Koran.

Worship is not paying homage or prostrating to someone! Worship is defined as the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. Stop distorting narrations to suite your whims!

I wasn't using a dictionary definition.

Who worshiped Jesus as a deity in the Bible?

Jesus isn't a mere man like Mohammed. Jesus had preexistence before coming to the world.
That's why he didn't have a normal birth and was a perfect and sinless man.
Jesus is very powerful and divine. He is however not the Almighty GOD we should worship as our GOD. Jesus himself has a God.

AntiChristian:
[/highlight]

You didn't have to give only examples bout mothers. I asked if we should show kindness to our parents.

Reading your comment, one wouldn't think that there is separate treatment for fathers.

AntiChristian:
But you saw for example there. Do i have to write a separate treatise for mother and father for you?

Go sleep jàre.
What's your religion?

oteneaaron:
If only you used this same energy to research the true origins of your religion as a Jehovah's Witness, you would have been one step closer to being free of of your indoctrination.

But in a bid to attack another religion, you forget that the history of yours isn't any better.

Go and sit your ass down research about the true origins of your JW organization, and when you're done with that, research the true origins of Christianity as a whole.

After all, Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all termed under what we call - ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS.

I know to read the long post is a problem for you. But it's worth it. I try to show how Satan influenced Mohammed in writing the Koran.

If you read the post carefully, you would see that Koran was the work of imperfect human not God.

Se na threat be this?

ItsReal:
I am 100% sure even you read the gibberish wey you go copy and paste ���.


Sorry for your situation.

You hear, no cry.

Very soon, your eye go clear.

Did Satan reveal part of Koran? Every Muslim should read through!


A Fresh Look at the Reason for Abrogation in the Quran

The official position of Sunni Islam is that the Quran contains a unique feature known as abrogation. Sunni scholarship maintains, on the basis of a few Quranic passages, that the Quran has verses that cancel or abrogate other verses within it. The verses that have been canceled or annulled are known as mansukh, and those texts or commands doing the canceling are called nasikh.

Muslims believe that it is Allah who has revealed both sets of texts, i.e. Allah is the one who sent down the canceled and the canceling verses.

Yet a careful study of the Quran actually indicates that Allah is not the one who sent down those specific passages that were then later canceled by the abrogating verses. If one were to pay careful attention to the specific citations that Muslims often use to support their belief in the doctrine of abrogation, not one of them explicitly say that Allah sent down the abrogated verses:

And for whatever verse (ayatin) We abrogate or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything? S. 2:106 Arberry

Allah makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him is the basis of the Book. S. 13:39 Shakir

And when We exchange a verse (ayatan) in the place of another verse (ayatin) and God knows very well what He is sending down -- they say, ‘Thou art a mere forger!’ Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge. S. 16:101 Shakir

The foregoing texts only say that Allah blots out, cancels, annuls specific verses, but do not say that he had originally revealed those passages that he later annulled.

In other words, the Quran explicitly ascribes only the abrogating (nasikh) verses to Allah, but does not state anywhere that the abrogated (mansukh) verses also originated with Allah. The authorship of these verses is left unspecified in these above passages.

A further examination of the Quran actually shows that Satan, not Allah, is the one responsible for at least some if not all of the abrogated passages! Note what the following text says:

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations (ayatihi). Allah is Knower, Wise; S. 22:52 Pickthall

Sura 22:52 clearly refers to specific verses that Satan interjected or introduced into the message of Muhammad. Allah proceeds to blot out what Satan has proposed in the recitation of the prophets, thereby establishing his revelation. He does so by revealing something better or similar to what Satan brought, albeit minus the deceptions and/or distortions (that is why it is said to be similar, cf. S. 2:106).

This analysis is further supported by paying careful attention to the immediate context of Sura 16:101:

And when thou recitest the Qur'an, seek refuge in Allah from Satan the outcast. Lo! he hath no power over those who believe and put trust in their Lord. His power is only over those who make a friend of him, and those who ascribe partners unto Him (Allah). And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not. S. 16:98-101 Pickthall

There is a connection, a direct correlation, between the Quran being recited, verses being abrogated, and seeking protection from Satan. The conclusion we can draw from this is that Muhammad was to seek God’s protection from Satan anytime he recited the Quran, since Satan had the habit of interjecting his own verses in order to confuse Muhammad and the Muslims regarding the Quran’s true reading. This then required Allah to blot out or cancel those verses that Satan introduced into Muhammad’s message.

To summarize: Some of the passages that speak about Allah abrogating verses and replacing them with better ones leave open the question who was the author of the abrogated verses. However, one passage explicitly says that Allah replaced what Satan had introduced (S. 22:52), and in another passage about abrogation the immediate context commands Muhammad to take refuge from Satan when reciting the Quran, thereby suggesting that Satan regularly tries to take influence over Muhammad’s recitation and seeks to twist it, though it claims at the same time that Allah will replace some revelations with others (S. 16:98-101). Fact is that the only author of the abrogated verses that is named explicitly in the Quran is Satan.

Therefore, when we seek to understand what all these texts are saying, when we interpret the verses on the issue of abrogation in light of one another, we are left with the conclusion that some of the passages of Satan have been expunged from the Quran whereas others may not have been removed. They still remain a part of the Quran.


Since a number of abrogated verses are still part of the Quran, Muslims must come to grips with the fact that their book contains citations which Satan inspired since he is the one who introduced those canceled passages. These texts apparently did not originate from Allah.

Even if a Muslim wants to reject our conclusion (and we would agree that the above outlined conclusion is most likely not what the author of the Quran intended to say), one can hardly avoid to admit that this is in the very least another example of the incoherence and incompleteness of the Quran. It would have been very easy to add a short statement about the origin of those abrogated verses. As it is, the available data seem to make Satan the author of part of the Quran.

Here is an example of abrogated and abrogating verses that can still be found in the Quran:

O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. S. 2:178

Contradicts the following:

For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. S. 5:32 Shakir

We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. S. 5:45 Arberry

One text implies that free men will not be put to death for the murder of slaves, or for women etc., whereas the other texts suggest that a person will be forced to pay for any unjust manslaughter irrespective of the class or gender of the victim. For a more detailed discussion of this issue. This article also shows that 2:178 is worded so badly, that it leads to utter confusion and could hardly have come from the omniscient and wise God. It was absolutely necessary to abrogate it with something better that could actually be implemented.

An additional problem and difficulty arises from the statements of Sura 16:98-100. These verses say that Satan has no affect on those who put their trust in Allah. Yet both Sura 22:52 and the Islamic narrations say that Satan not only managed to interject his wishes into Muhammad’s recitation, but that Muhammad came under the power of Satan since he was bewitched for a time:

Narrated Aisha:
Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 400)


Narrated 'Aisha:
that Allah's Apostle was affected by magic, so much that he used to think that he had done something which in fact, he did not do, and he invoked his Lord (for a remedy). Then (one day) he said, "O 'Aisha!) Do you know that Allah has advised me as to the problem I consulted Him about?" 'Aisha said, "O Allah's Apostle! What's that?" He said, "Two men came to me and one of them sat at my head and the other at my feet, and one of them asked his companion, 'What is wrong with this man?' The latter replied, 'He is under the effect of magic.' The former asked, 'Who has worked magic on him?' The latter replied, 'Labid bin Al-A'sam.' The former asked, 'With what did he work the magic?' The latter replied, 'With a comb and the hair, which are stuck to the comb, and the skin of pollen of a date-palm tree.' The former asked, 'Where is that?' The latter replied, 'It is in Dharwan.' Dharwan was a well in the dwelling place of the (tribe of) Bani Zuraiq. Allah's Apostle went to that well and returned to 'Aisha, saying, 'By Allah, the water (of the well) was as red as the infusion of Hinna, (1) and the date-palm trees look like the heads of devils.' 'Aisha added, Allah's Apostle came to me and informed me about the well. I asked the Prophet, 'O Allah's Apostle, why didn't you take out the skin of pollen?' He said, 'As for me, Allah has cured me and I hated to draw the attention of the people to such evil (which they might learn and harm others with).' "

Narrated Hisham's father: 'Aisha said, "Allah's Apostle was bewitched, so he invoked Allah repeatedly requesting Him to cure him from that magic)." Hisham then narrated the above narration. (See Hadith No. 658, Vol. 7) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 75, Number 400)


This either means that the Quran is wrong since Satan does have power over Allah’s faithful slaves, or that Muhammad wasn’t fully trusting in Allah and therefore wasn’t completely pleasing to his god. Either way, these texts pose major problems for Muslims and their belief in Muhammad’s prophethood, as well as the Quran’s alleged divine inspiration in every part of it.

Even though Muslims will disagree with our conclusion, in light of the foregoing we ask them to ponder on the following questions. How can you be sure that Allah managed to remove all those verses that Satan had introduced before Muhammad died? And, since there are many verses in the Quran that Sunni Muslims consider to be abrogated, how do you know that some of these are not actually from Satan, instead of Allah?

Although it would be bad enough if only some of the abrogated verses in the Quran originate with Satan, we must note that these were not introduced in an abrogated state, but they were in operation and considered valid for a certain period, i.e. until Allah sent the abrogation. If Allah did not manage to abrogate all of these false verses, this means that not only the abrogated verses are under suspicion to be from Satan, but potentially all other verses as well, including the nasikh verses, since what would hinder Satan to inspire a verse that abrogates something previously given by Allah? If Satan can introduce verses into the Quran at all — and that is established by S. 22:52 —, then every single verse is doubtful.

Do not underestimate the question, "How can any Muslim be sure that Allah managed to remove all of Satan’s interjections before Muhammad died?" In the specific case of the infamous "Satanic Verses", the historical data suggest that it likely took several weeks if not months before they were cancelled and replaced. The abolishing and replacing was certainly not immediate. Moreover, the Quran also teaches that Christians were misled about the crucifixion of Jesus. The Gospels without doubt teach that Jesus was crucified. In fact, the crucifixion of Jesus is not only a side issue but is its central message and the core event in the Christian understanding of God’s way of salvation from sin. There is not even a hint in the Gospels that Jesus got replaced by somebody else. If we should believe the Quran, then Allah waited nearly 600 years before he rectified this rather fundamental error that has led astray all of Christendom, several billions of people until this day. This fact does not inspire much confidence that the god of Islam makes it a high priority to correct errors and falsehoods in his scriptures quickly. How can any Muslim trust that Allah has not left similarly fundamental errors and distortions in the Quran as he allegedly allowed to remain in the Gospels?

There is yet another uncomfortable question. S. 22:52 claims that Allah removes what Satan interjected. What does this say about the considerable number of verses that have been in the Quran at some time, but are no longer found in today’s version. Have all of them or most of them been removed because they originated from Satan? The verse on stoning should be particularly troubling in this regard, since it is a foundational part of the Shariah, even though it is no longer in the Quran. Islamic law demands to stone adulterers and Muslims follow this command to this day. Are they actually following a command of Satan since this verse was removed from the Quran, and in it we find instead a verse that commands to flog adulterers (S. 24:2)?

An afterthought

One could also take a somewhat different perspective. When we look at some of the abrogated and abrogating verses, e.g. the principle "there is no compulsion in religion" (S. 2:256) which was later abrogated by "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them" (S. 9:5) , then it seems that oftentimes the earlier and abrogated verses are the better ones, while the later abrogating verses are of the evil and violent variety. Pondering this, one could then come to the conclusion that it was actually the other way around, i.e. Satan managed to abrogate the verses that Allah had originally given. Or, if we stick to the conclusion outlined in the main section of this paper, then the character of Allah in Islam is worse than that of Satan!

One former Muslim commented on the above: "The way the article is written can actually be interpreted as if you are acknowledging that God did indeed deal with Mohammad and was correcting these Satanic verses for him. I believe a better approach would be to write it in a form that proves that the author of the Quran is human and this book was not revealed from God due to the inconsistent nature of these verses (something that God is above). The abrogated and abrogator concept is one strong proof that God has nothing to do with the Quran. It proves the human nature of the author of the Quran."

Response: We fully agree. The whole concept of abrogation is a strong proof that the Quran does not come from the omniscient God. Instead, Muhammad was feeling his way and constantly had to revise his "revelations" when the circumstances changed. However, in the above article we were simply studying the Quran, not because we believe in it, not because we accept its claims, but because we made the discovery that the common Muslim understanding of this issue is actually not supported by the Quran itself. In this article, we sought to explain what the Quran actually says about the issue, without endorsing this teaching as true.

As indicated above, we agree with the likely Muslim objection that the author of the Quran most probably did not intend to say that the abrogated verses, both those removed from the Quran and those left in the text of the Quran, had originally come from Satan. However, the thesis presented above is simply taking the statements of the Quran at face value. We encounter it every day that people say something different than what they actually wanted to say. That is human nature. This very human characteristic can also be found in the text of the Quran. The fact that the Quran says what it didn't want to say on this issue, is simply another piece of evidence that the author of the Quran is not the omniscient God but a fallible human being who didn't realize that he actually said something that he did not mean.

This leaves the Muslims with two uncomfortable alternatives. If one accepts the assumption that the Quran is perfect and most eloquent in its language and formulation then one must accept the statements of the Quran on this issue at face value and is left with the conclusion that some or even all of the abrogated passages may have come from Satan. On the other hand, one can assume that this was not the intention of the author of the Quran, and one should not take the statements literally, but then it will be difficult to hold to the claim that the Quran is of divine origin because it has an inimitable eloquence that is not possible to achieve for human beings. The Quran is simply too human to be what it claims to be.

But you still answered it foolishly!

Thank you

That means Jesus brought a separate prayer method right? But why did he still bow with his head on the floor like us?

Jesus thought his disciples how to pray not position to pray. Jesus didn't bow like you.
with his face to the ground not head on the floor

Allah has the same root as Elohim. Allah is Arabic, Elohim (Plural) Eloah (Singular) is in Hebrew. In Aramaic it is Elah or Alah! All this languages a Semitic languages.

It's not the same thing. "El" is the Hebrew word for god and 'Elohim" is the qualitative plural for "El".

Always have this in your head. The God of Moses is not the God of Mohammed.

But the one he used when in dire need of help was to bow down!

Which means it's not always bowing down!

You need not prostrate like Jesus to your creator! Your father is the husband of your mother not God. You should worship God not your father

Jesus was worshipped multiple times in the bible even immediately after he was born.

Worship in a sense literally means paying homage or prostrating before someone.

Do your prostrating before Allah gives him ego and make his head swear?

AntiChristian:
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