₦airaland Forum

Why did the koran have many copies in the first place when Allah promised to guard it from corruption?

How are we sure that the one copy of Koran left is the authentic?

Then you need not quote verse you don't have any knowledge of!

That's the literally meaning of the verse i quoted.
If you have another meaning to it, then you should explain it in your comments. Don't ask me!

AntiChristian:
So as to avoid the Qur'an becoming like your Bible of today with many copies yet not two manuscript are exactly alike!

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4988) from Anas ibn Maalik that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan came to ‘Uthmaan at the time when the people of Shaam (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azerbaijan. Hudhayfah was alarmed by their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’aan, so he said to 'Uthmaan, "O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! Save this nation before they dispute about the Book (Qur’aan) as the Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthmaan sent a message to Hafsah saying, "Send us the manuscript of the Qur’aan so that we may make copies of the Mus-haf and we will return the manuscript to you."


They are plenty but they all have context and settings which of course you are ignorant of.

Can One Be A Believer in God And Oppose Muhammad At The Same Time?

The Quran makes the following claim:


Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity. Sura 58:22 Yusuf Ali

You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). … Al-Hilali & Khan

Note that this first sentence in this verse is not a command but it is formulated as a statement of fact. A command is not invalidated by the existence of some or even many people who disobey it. But a general claim stating something as a certain fact can easily be proven wrong by providing counterexamples.

The first statement in the above quoted verse is wrong for several reasons.

I find it hard to imagine that there do not exist converts to Islam (whether former Christians, agnostics, atheists, pagans, or else), i.e. people who now sincerely believe in Allah and the Last Day but who still love their fathers or sons and brothers despite their disbelief in Islam and rejection of Muhammad as a messenger from God. Taken as a statement of fact about all Muslims this claim in Sura 58:22 was certainly as wrong in Muhammad’s time as it is wrong today. As fierce and harsh as some Muslims can be, most Muslims are quite normal people, and the above statement cannot possibly be true of all Muslims in the way it is stated.

Anyone who knows the Christian faith knows that Christians believe in God and in the Last Day.

Moreover, there are plenty of Christians (i.e. people who believe in God and the Last Day) who love other Christians who also resist and oppose Islam. To be specific: My father is a devout Christian who loves me, and I obviously resist and oppose Muhammad and his message. And there are plenty of other Christians around me, who love me and have made friendship with me. Thus, Sura 58:22 is objectively wrong.

This is the factual error in this verse.

However, this statement is not only factually wrong, it also creates a logical contradiction in the Quran because the Quran itself states explicitly that Christians are among those who believe in God and in the Last Day:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. S. 2:62

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. S. 5:69

And the Quran is adamant in its claim that Christians and Muslims believe in the same one God:

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. S. 29:46

Without question, according to the Quran, Christians belong to the "people who believe in God and the Last Day", thus they are part of the people referred to in Sura 58:22, with all the detrimental consequences outlined above.

Christians are commanded to love each other (John 13:34-35) and even their enemies (Matthew 5:44). Though some may fail to fully obey this command, there are plenty of Christians who strive to live according to these commands.

Therefore, Christians love other Christians, and those Christians who know the Bible and see how Islam contradicts the Bible will also resist and reject Muhammad as being a man who falsely claimed to be a messenger from God. Thus, there are plenty of believers in God and the Last Day who love others who resist Islam.

In fact, even the Quran itself states that Christians love/are friends with other Christians or Jews (who both reject Muhammad):

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. S. 5:51 Pickthall

To summarize, Sura 58:22, contains not only an objective error, but is also in contradiction to other statements in the Quran:

¶Jews and Christians believe in God and the Last Day (S. 2:62, 5:69, 29:46).

¶Jews and Christians reject Muhammad as a messenger from God.

¶Jews and Christians are friends to each other (S. 5:51)

Yet, the Quran claims also:

You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger … (S. 58:22)
The contradiction is blatantly obvious.

Sura 58:22 features also in another set of contradictory passages in the Quran that I'll discuss later.

One would think, is the Koran a perfect book from God or it's just brainwork of Mohammed

Do Muslims worship the same God as the Jews and christians

Ewọ ọmọ yí sha. Na you go de teach me how to use word
When were you appointed to be the minister for regulations of word usage

achorladey:
I have not hold you back from using any words of your choice or leanings.

This is nairaland forum. A public platform to discuss so many things including how words are used.

The Quran makes this claim:

Verily, we have sent down the Reminder, and, verily, we will guard it. Q15:9

According to Muslim commentators like Ibn Kathir, this Reminder is the Quran since just a few verses before that we read in the same Surah:

But they say, ‘O thou to whom the Reminder has been sent down! verily, thou art possessed.’ Q15:6

Muslims say that, “O thou to whom the reminder has been sent down,” refers to Muhammad and therefore the Reminder spoken about here must be the Quran. Muslims conclude that this is Allah’s promise that the Qur'an cannot be corrupted and is accurately preserved to this day.

Some Christian apologists make the argument that the Reminder refers to all of Allah’s messages including the one revealed in the Bible. Muslims usually reject this claim and say that Allah guards only the Quran. Taking into account everything that the Quran says about the Scriptures of the Jews and the Christians, one can make a solid argument that the Quran presupposes that the Jews and Christians indeed possess God’s authentic and uncorrupted revelation . However, since Muslims often do not accept those arguments, the purpose of this paper is to show that their position leads to a set of logical problems. Thus, for argument’s sake I will go along with these Muslim claims, and explore where this interpretation will lead us when taken together with some other Muslim convictions.

In other places, the Quran makes the claim to be impeccable:

falsehood shall not come to it, from before it, nor from behind it - a revelation from the wise, the praiseworthy One. Q41:42

Do they not meditate on the Qur'ran? if it were from other than God they would find in it many a discrepancy. Q4:82

At the same time, Muslims believe that there are verses in the Quran which say that the previous Revelations have been corrupted:

O thou Apostle! let not those grieve thee who vie in misbelief; or those who say with their mouths 'We believe,' but their hearts do not believe; or of those who are Jews, listeners to a lie, - listeners to other people, but who come not to thee. They pervert the words from their places and say, ' If this is what ye are given, take it; but if ye are not given it, then beware!' but he whom God wishes to mislead, thou canst do nothing with God for him; these are those whose hearts God wishes not to purify, for them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the next is mighty woe, Q5:41; check also Q3:78, Q2:79, Q4:46 and Q5:13.

Still, the Quran commands the Muslims to believe in the previous Revelations:

who believe in what is revealed to thee (Muhammad), and what was revealed before thee, and of the hereafter they are sure. Q2:4

The Apostle (Muhammad) believes in what is sent down to him from his Lord, and the believers (Muslims) all believe on God, and His angels, and His Books, and His apostles,- we make no difference between any of His apostles,- they say, 'We hear and obey, Thy pardon, O Lord! for to Thee our journey tends. Q2:285

Say (O Muslims), 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to thee, and what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord,- we will make no distinction between any of them,- and we are unto Him resigned. Q3:84

These previous Revelations include the following:

We did reveal the Torah (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light ... Q5:44

And already have we written in the Psalms (Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105

Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel (Injil), containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46

Let us summarize the claims that were presented so far:

i. The Quran is preserved.
ii. God’s Revelations which preceded the Quran include the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel.
iii. These Books make up a large portion of the Holy Bible.
iv. The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are all the Word of Allah.
v. God's Word does not change.
vi. The revelations that came before the Quran have become corrupted.
vii. Although Muslims should believe that these previous Books are the genuine Revelations from God,
they have to trust only the Quran as the final revelation and the only one that is preserved
We now have to deal with this logic:

¶The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel are all Allah’s Word.

¶The current Torah, Psalms and Gospel are corrupted.

¶The final word of Allah, the Quran is preserved.

1st Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are corrupted

2nd Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are preserved.

Based on the above generalizations we can construct these deductive arguments:

i. Major premise: Some of Allah’s Words are corrupted.
ii. Minor premise: The Quran is Allah’s Word.
Conclusion: The Quran could be corrupted.


Or we could do it another way:

i. Major premise: Some of Allah’s Words are preserved.
ii. Minor premise: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are Allah’s Words.
iii. Conclusion: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel could be preserved.

The Main Problem

Since Allah allowed his previous Revelations to be corrupted by weak human people, this leads to one of the following assumptions about Allah:

Allah is a weak god; he could not protect his previous Revelations. He also gains more power and might throughout time, because he supposedly is now able to protect his last revelation, the Quran.

Allah does not care about people being misled by counterfeit revelations. And yet he will still punish individuals with hell fire because they follow a corrupted Message even though they may have not come to the realization that Allah had allowed it to be corrupted. That means Allah is unjust.

In light of the above, how can we trust that the Quran is preserved if these three Revelations are corrupted? How can a person trust that Allah did not fail to protect his so-called final revelation, the Quran, when he was too weak to prevent people from tampering with his previous Messages?

Maybe Allah needs to a send a fifth revelation? Perhaps he has already sent down this fifth book, and that is actually the revelation given to

Baha’ullah the founder of the Baha’i faith?

More importantly, how do Muslims reconcile their position with Allah’s claim in the Quran that “there is no changing the words of God”?


Muslims, you have to make a decision and choose one of these alternatives:


1. The Quran is preserved and the earlier Revelations are corrupted. In that case, Allah is either weak or he is unjust. That is the only explanation for his preservation of the Quran and letting people corrupt his previous Revelations.

2. The Quran is corrupted like the other Revelations. Then you should either not read it since you do not read other corrupted Revelations, or maybe you should read these other corrupted Revelations just as you insist on reading the corrupted Quran.

3. The Quran is preserved, and the previous Revelations have also been preserved. That means then you should read these authentic Revelations (the Bible) for yourself.

5. The Quran is corrupted but the earlier Revelations are preserved. Obviously, you should then abandon the Quran and read the Bible.

Just a second, I’m not finished yet.

If you picked option number three, then you will be faced with another problem. The Quran contradicts these previous Revelations in many essential points. That means that the Quran is a false message which cannot be from God since God is not the author of confusion. He could not reveal a message that contradicts his previous Messages.

If you do not like these alternatives, then tell me:

What exactly do you think is wrong with my above observations and conclusions?

If you do not accept my premises and therefore reject my conclusions, then:

PROVE TO ME THAT THE QURAN IS PRESERVED.

You have to do that in a rational way without quoting the Quran since that would only be a repetition of the claim, not a proof, or trying to prove that the previous Revelations are corrupted which in no way proves the Quran not to be corrupted, or providing me with (what I consider fake) scientific miracles in the Quran. I want you to resolve the philosophical problem outlined above.

Show me logically and rationally how the Muslim assertion of a perfectly preserved Quran together with an alleged corruption of God’s earlier Revelations is not an insult to God’s perfect justice and great power.

Qur'an were burnt by Uthman the 4th Caliph! And he transcribed the Qur'an he collected from the 3rd Caliph. He then sent it everywhere!

Why were this korans burned?

I asked what is the settings and context of this verse?

You don't need to ask me that.

Most of the Old testament laws are readily not being taken serious. Especially those laws that doesn't go well with sound reasoning, laws for Polygamy, Apostasy, etc. We know the Bible is mainly a fraud but it also contains part of the Injeel and Torah no doubt!

Which laws o abeg
The highlighted plenty for Koran o.

AntiChristian:
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”
[al-Hijr 15:9]

AntiChristian why did Allah fail to preserve the earlier scriptures of the Jews and christians if he said to Mohammed that:

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee (10:94 AYA/95 MP)

We gave him (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: AND ISMA’IL and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way. This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. These were THE MEN to whom We gave THE BOOK, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. S. 6:84-89

Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms; S. 4:163 Pickthall

See your have shallow knowledge of the Koran. Go study your book first before quoting the Bible

[s]This Book of Moses was not Genesis to Deuteronomy. It was a Book given to Moses.
[/s]

You don't know what your saying

Where did i say such? Hadiths are different from biographies! You need to learn the difference!

If i start quoting the Hadiths for you, you will still say some are wrong not legit.

The Books of Moses were for him and his people. So also was the Injeel and other Books.

Lol Koran no be for Mohammed and Arabs
I quoted surah 14:4 for you.
Allah only sends Messengers in the language of the people he want the message to be delivered to so that they could understand.

Surah 14:4
And We have sent no Messenger
save with the tongue of his people,
that he might make all clear to them; ...

Who were the people of Mohammed?
What is/was their tongue?
Where did you get the idea of mankind from?

If Muhammad and Muslims then claim that he is sent to all people of all languages, then he, Mohammed is not one of the Messengers of Allah, since he does not satisfy the explicitly stated conditions

AntiChristian:
Torah stated in Islam is the Book of Moses only! Zabur is for David. Injeel is for Jesus. Suhuf is for Abraham! Your are simply misguided about Islam.

Allah says And indeed, We gave Musa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave ‘Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. Qur'an 2:87.


The Qur'an was for the world hence its preservation till the world ends. No book is being memorised like the Qur'an since over 1400 yrs ago!

AntiChristian, you'll like to see how Allah can't be the same God of the Jews and Jesus


An abomination to Yahweh

God’s true Word says:

"If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance." Deuteronomy 24:1-4

Muhammad, on the other hand, commands:

"A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah. So do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (themselves as well as others). So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), he cannot, after that, remarry her until after she has married another husband and he has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand." S. 2:229-230

What Yahweh calls an abomination, Muhammad calls permissible!



Muhammad caused a split in the marriage of his adopted son, Zaid, and then proceeded to marry his ex-wife:

"It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error. And (remember) when you said to him (Zaid bin Hârithah the freedslave of the Prophet) on whom Allâh has bestowed Grace (by guiding him to Islâm) and you (O Muhammad too) have done favour (by manumitting him) "Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allâh." But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allâh has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which Allâh will make manifest, you did fear the people (i.e., Muhammad married the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allâh had a better right that you should fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, so that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in respect of (the marriage of) the wives of their adopted sons when the latter have no desire to keep them (i.e. they have divorced them). And Allâh's Command must be fulfilled. There is no blame on the Prophet in that which Allâh has made legal for him. That has been Allâh's Way with those who have passed away of (the Prophets of) old. And the Command of Allâh is a decree determined." S. 33:36-38 Hilali-Khan.


Matthew 5:27-28,31-32
[27]“You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’
[28]But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[31]“You have heard the law that says, ‘A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a written notice of divorce.’
[32]But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery.

You didn't mention the Apocrypha, the council of Nicea, etc.

I'll mention some facts about this later.

The Qur'an ascribed the Torah to Moses and Injeel to Jesus. In contrast your Bible is not from Jesus and Moses only!

The Koran ascribe it or not is not my concern.
The fact is that the book of Genesis to Malachi are books of the Jews. These books are compiled together in sequence and it contains mostly the history of God's chosen people, the Israelites.
It's in between those accounts recorded in the Old testament that God gave His words to His prophets.

It's quite illogical to say that the five books of Moses (Genesis to Deuteronomy) were literally given to Moses like it was given to Mohammed.
The books contain real events that were written down.

The Torah is the Book revealed as a Book to Moses.

Go and study your Koran well

Ibn Ishaq is a historian who get some stories right and some wrong! If he spoke evil about Jesus would you believe him?

Are you saying that the Hadiths are not to be trusted? Cos there's no way we could separate this right and wrong you talked about. And IBN ishaq no be your mate

AntiChristian:
Conclusion

The Qur'an maintains that the Bible is the word of God and no distinction is to be made between any of the holy books. Therefore if you are a Muslim you should not attack the Bible - the Qur'an upholds it!

The Bible is taught to be a source of guidance for Jews and Christians who wish to know the will of God, and so the Qur'an encourages Jews and Christians to obey their scripture and never asks them to deny it. The Qur'an says the Bible foretells the coming of Muhammad and it never says that faithful Jews or Christians have corrupted their scripture.

AntiChristian is the injeel a written book or just a revelation never written down?

.

Allah promise to guide the Koran from corruption but didn't guide the first holy books from corruption. Make ona de whine ona sef

First i would like you to answer these same questions on you Koran

AntiChristian:
You have answered your question already.
I think you should try and answer this questions on your Bible.

1.Who compiled the Bible?
2. When was it compiled?
3. How was it compiled?
4. Where was it compiled?
5. Who were its copyists at each points of compilations?
6. How reliable were the compilers and copyists?
7. Paul who wrote about 13 books of the Bible never met Jesus in real life. Yet he wrote more that all Jesus's disciples combined. Explain this?
8. Luke and Mark wrote from hearsays. They never met Jesus. How can we verify the sources and reliability of their Books?
8. Who were its chains of transmitters from generations to generations?
9. How can the authors be verified whey they mention their name in the verses?
10. Who are the authors?
11. How can we verify these authors in 8 above?
12. Archaeology disproves the "Noah and the flood" story. It has truly proved many biblical stories to be true but it also disproves many so archeology has no say in these!

FatherOfJesus:
why did you believe him?

I haven't believe him.
I first need to hear it from you and that calling yourself the father is all a joke

Does the Koran approve the bible or disapprove it?

What are the Jewish and Christian Scriptures?

From the time of Jesus, the Jews and Christians have always shared the same holy book. In Judaism it is called the Tonach or Hebrew Bible, and in Christianity, the Old Testament. In this book are the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms. These are the scriptures of the Jewish Prophets before Jesus. Christians have always honoured and read this scripture that first came to the Jews. This scripture is the first section of the Christian Bible.

There is another book of scripture about which many Jews and Christians do not agree. This book too has been given various names in different cultures. It has been called The Gospel or the New Testament or the New Covenant. Christians accept the Gospel as scripture. This book is the second section of the Bible.

Thus all the scriptures of the Jews and Christians are found in the Bible. There exists today ancient Bibles from the time of Muhammad and hundreds of years before his time. Scholars use these ancient scriptures to show that modern Bibles are genuine.

Some people claim that when the Qur'an refers to the Torah or the Gospel that it is not referring to the books Jews and Christians have today. However the Qur'an does not claim this. When the Qur'an speaks of the Torah and the Gospel it is referring to the books which the Jews and Christians possessed at the time of Muhammad.

Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them (7:157 MP).

And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession (2:89 MP).

Muhammad lived during the 6th/7th century A.D. We have Bibles from before, during and after this time. This archaeological evidence allows us to be sure that the Torah and Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an are the same books that are found in the Bible today.

This fact is also confirmed by Ibn Ishaq who wrote the earliest biography (Sirat) of Muhammad. He clearly indentifies the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an as what Christians call the New Testament.

Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following. It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary (Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", translated as "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, Karachi: Oxford, 1998, pp. 103-104, bold added.)
Here we see Ibn Ishaq refer to the Apostle John and the Gospel that he wrote. This is simply what Christians call the Gospel according to John and it is part of the New Testment.


Conclusion

The Qur'an maintains that the Bible is the word of God and no distinction is to be made between any of the holy books. Therefore if you are a Muslim you should not attack the Bible - the Qur'an upholds it!

The Bible is taught to be a source of guidance for Jews and Christians who wish to know the will of God, and so the Qur'an encourages Jews and Christians to obey their scripture and never asks them to deny it. The Qur'an says the Bible foretells the coming of Muhammad and it never says that faithful Jews or Christians have corrupted their scripture.


AntiChristian is the injeel a written book or just a revelation never written down?

Your response @ AntiChristian
Injeel was a revelation from Allah to Jesus which he taught his disciples and people during his time on earth. Jesus did not write it down. However his disciples may have done so. This were circulated and mixed with many falsehood.

Where in the Koran does it explicitly state that the injil is a revelation given to Jesus?


And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). S. 5:46 Al-Hilali & Khan; cf. S. 57:27

He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet." S. 19:30 Arberry

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). S. 3:3 Al-Hilali & Khan

The Qur'an also contains a second set of statements regarding the Injil:

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. ... S. 5:47 Al-Hilali & Khan

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel [Injil] (which are) with them. S. 7:157

[Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan

The Contradiction

However, here is the problem: when we look at the New Testament, the book which is the Scripture of the Christians, we see that it nowhere makes the claim that it is a book that was "given to Jesus". On the contrary, the New Testament consists of several books that were written by followers of Jesus (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) AFTER the ascension of Jesus.

Therefore, the Injil can EITHER be a book given to Jesus, OR it can be the book that the Christians hold as they Holy Scriptures, but it cannot be both. Muhammad apparently assumed that the Scripture of the Christians (and Jews) would be very similar to the Qur'an, the book which he thought he received from Allah. However, Muhammad was clearly ignorant of the matter. The essential nature of the Qur'an and the Bible are very different. A book "given to Jesus" in a similar way as Muhammad claims to have received the Qur'an does not exist and Christians have never claimed that such a book existed at any time. This claim of S. 5:46 is merely a wrong idea that sprang from the mind of Muhammad.

Had the author of the Qur'an made only statements like those found in S. 5:46 and 19:30, it might have been an option for Muslims to claim that the Injil of Jesus was simply lost. Jesus indeed received such a book but, somehow, it disappeared. Muslims could have said that the NT clearly is something very different from the Injil as defined by the Qur'an, and could have concluded that therefore they do not believe in the Christian New Testament since the Qur'an does not endorse it.

However, the second set of statements above prevents this explanation. The Qur'an identifies the Injil as the Scripture of the Christians. Thus, since the Injil is the book of the Christians, the Qur'an makes a blatantly wrong claim about the basic nature of the Injil. It neither is nor ever was a book given to Jesus.

The Source?

How could this error arise in the mind of Muhammad? He may have heard statements like in the first verse of the Gospel according to Mark:

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, ...

and mistakenly thought that this meant the same as "the Torah of Moses" i.e. a revelation given to a prophet in form of a book. However, reading the context shows that it means "this is the beginning of the Gospel ABOUT Jesus Christ"; the Gospel is the message telling us about the life and teaching of Jesus, written up by his followers, not a book given to Jesus himself.

Muhammad projected his own experience of receiving revelation of a book (the Qur'an) on Jesus and simply assumed that the book OF Jesus that was held sacred by his followers must also have been a book given TO Jesus (like the sacred book of the Muslims is the book given TO Muhammad). However, Muhammad was wrong about this, and this mistake exposes the Qur'an as a forgery. The Qur'an is not divine revelation but a collection of mistaken assumptions by its author.

But the Bible is corrupted!

In most cases when the Qur'an contradicts the Bible, Muslims shout, "but the Bible is corrupted", as if that is the answer and solution to every such problem.

There are at least two reasons why this response will not solve the problem.

First, the Qur'an never claims that the Injil is corrupted. There are certain accusations against the Jews, but no charge that the Christians corrupted their Scripture. The section, What the Qur'an says about the Bible, investigates this matter closely and shows that the Qur'an does not support the Muslim claim of Bible corruption.

Second, even if there had been some corruption of certain passages, small changes resulting in certain shifts of meaning, this cannot possibly explain the above contradiction in the Qur'an. Here we have a fundamental difference in the nature of the book which cannot be accounted for either with gradual changes or with a sudden change.

For illustration: The Qur'an is (allegedly) a book that was "sent down" from Allah to Muhammad. It was (supposedly) not written by Muhammad but given to him by Allah. On the other hand, the Hadith are memories of the companions and followers of Muhammad, formulated and written up by Muslims long after the death of Muhammad. They are their recollection of what Muhammad said and did.

Would it be possible for anyone to change the Qur'an (the book given to Muhammad) into a collection of hadiths without the Muslim community realizing that their scripture had changed into something entirely different?

Without doubt, the Muslim answer will be a resounding NO. But if that is impossible for the Muslim book and community, why would any Muslim think that this would have been possible in the Christian community? Originally, the Christians had a "book given to Jesus" but one day they woke up and their scripture had turned into a collection of writings by followers of Jesus and nobody realized the change, and nobody protested against it? Believing such a theory demands a lot of blind faith in the Qur'an. It is impossible. Anyone with the least bit of common sense will have to conclude that this cannot possibly have happened, and this implies that the author of the Qur'an simply made an error regarding the nature of the Christian Scripture.

Jochen Katz

Your response @ AntiChristian:
He was sent to all mankind and Jinn.

How did Mohammed send Allah's message to the jinns

Surah 14:4
And We have sent no Messenger
save with the tongue of his people,
that he might make all clear to them;

Conditions given by the Koran:
i. Allah only send messenger in the language of his people..
Ii. To make the message clear to the people

If Muhammad then claims that he is sent to all people of all languages (mankind), then he is not one of the Messengers of Allah, since he does not satisfy the explicitly stated conditions.
Where did the Koran explicitly states that Mohammed was sent to all mankind?

One should also not overlook that the conditions are stating that he (the messenger) might make all clear to them. Granted, Muhammad fulfills the absolutely trivial and irrelevant condition that he brought the message in his own language (Arabic), but it is simply not true that Muhammad personally went to all mankind and made it clear to them. This verse does not say that Allah ordered his messenger(s) to teach and appoint others who then in turn would go out to the people to make it clear to them. No, the formulation is personal. It is the messenger himself who does it. Though Muhammad personally spoke to many people from various Arab tribes, he never went to other people groups, let alone all people groups of mankind, in order to make Allah's message clear to them. So, how can he satisfy the criterion? According to this verse, he could at most be a messenger to the Arabs.

Did the Koran claim that he was sent to all mankind?

The Qu'ran was compiled less than 2yrs after the Prophet's death. It is no news that the Qur'an was memorised unlike any other scripture. The compilation was with the first caliph Abu bakr till he died. It was then with Umar the 2nd Caliph till he died. Uthman the 3rd Caliph then collected the manuscript from Hafsah the daughter of Umar. It was this manuscript that was transcribed and sent everywhere when there was recitation disputes.

I'll fully address this later.
But go check your history. After Mohammed's death copy of korans were burnt and only one was authorized

He was sent to all mankind and Jinn.

We will see

The Qur'an was preserved.

I doubt

Where was that and what was the context/setting of such verse?

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee (10:94 AYA/95 MP)

Satanic verses? Never heard of them. Qur'an has been memorised and inherited from generations to generations from about 1,500 years ago.

You haven't really heard of it?

The old testament was existing since aeon! This does not mean it wasn't susceptible to alterations! It wasn't available on the internet then. So i wonder how it was preserved for over thousands of years without errors!

Bobo think. If the old testament had been existing hundreds of year before Mohammed was born and he confirmed it later in his lifetime to be intact and unadulterated. Why would you think it's corrupted and not preserved now and the Koran was preserve
[quote author=AntiChristian post=110271522][/quote]

It shows that the KJV of 1611 was defective. So all others before it too would be defective.

If other translations after the KJV could expose it how much more translations before it? Think bobo.

So people actually have THE TRUTH OF GOD before the birth of JWs
I'm loving this

The early church no get the TRUTH before men's doctrines spoil am

So people who first rejected the doctrine of Hell found out from where, Quran or Biology Text Book?

Their finding out about the truth actually is positive for us. If you don't gerrit forget bout it

The Bible says I should be filled with Holy Spirit rather than Alcohol

The bible didn't say Jesus didn't drink himself

Reason most JWs are all drunkard

Reason why Jesus himself was called drunkard

So that mean not ONLY JWs that have the WHOLE truth

The early church and christians had it

You must have tasted the fake holy spirit to know there's a real holy spirit

There's no fake holy spirit
What i meant was that you were probably lying like some christians do today, speaking in fake tongues

Emusan:

Hahahaha you get am. Person wey no exist wey de talk i am that i am

Dtruthspeaker:
By talking, the you who has spoken up there, whom I am now responding to, has proven to us that you exist.

So, this must be you reporting that you are mad.

Guy just mind your business. I can choose to use any words i like, no wahala de there na
Assumption na sin?

achorladey:
Why you dey ask question wey I don answer before? Was the issue of could about SIN or SINS?

Face discussion.

Someone told me you're a satanist

FatherOfJesus:
You are psychopath. You can't recognize a God when you see one

JOTL wetin na.
To use could for sentence na sin
Common here bobo

achorladey:
The basis of it I don't know.



Na you be Jesus?




Na OYO you dey before now

Thank you so much.
When Jesus said, "the kingdom of heaven can be compared to"...na assumption Abi.
Abeg free me o

achorladey:
Learn you no gree, follow discussion no . This is what will happen below...



When I said the below, what do you think I meant? Did you see anything related to cult in that post?



Even MaxInDHouse cannot deny what I meant as it concerns he(MaxInDHouse)



I didn't ask you to check the meaning of cult in the first place.



Cornelboy looking for company .



Your assumption and speculation don start



I go soon post who pharisees are based on definition of the religious organization you belong. You go compare and contrast am.

FatherOfJesus:
I'm not atheist, I'm yahweh. The Christian God

A psychopath spotted

Where or why

AntiChristian:
Where did Jesus specifically say this statement?

Jesus said:
“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. Mat 5:17

Oh you think Jesus would say we can commit murder and aldultery right?
The law is not just the ten commandments
Study the new testament well and see what I'm talking about.
Jesus brought another new covenant and ended the old covenant.

AntiChristian:
So why did Jesus mentions following the same commandment here in Mat 19:16-19

16 A man came to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?”

17 Jesus answered, “Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. But if you want to have eternal life, obey the law’s commands.”

18 The man asked, “Which ones?”

Jesus answered, “‘You must not murder anyone, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not tell lies about others, 19 you must respect your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor the same as you love yourself.’”

Baba if you have a better performing "cult" that honour and obey Jehovah God and His words, tell us about it

LordReed:
Yes the JW org is a cult. Below is the check list for cults and JW checks almost every one of them.

....

AntiChristian:
Farawa (Genesis) 1:1-10 Allah appears 11 times in 10 verses
1A sa'ad da Allah ya fara halittar Sama da duniya, 2duniya ba ta da siffa, sarari ce kawai, duhu kuwa yana lulluɓe da fuskar zurfin teku, Ruhun Allah kuma yana shawagi bisa ruwayen. 3 Allah ya ce, “Bari haske ya kasance,” sai kuwa ya kasance. 4 Allah ya ga hasken yana da kyau. Allah ya raba tsakanin hasken da duhu, 5ya ce da hasken, “Yini,” duhu kuwa, “Dare.” Ga maraice, ga safiya, kwana ɗaya ke nan.
6 Allah ya ce, “Bari sarari ya kasance tsakanin ruwaye, don ya raba tsakaninsu.” 7 Allah kuwa ya yi sarari, ya kuma raba tsakanin ruwayen da suke ƙarƙashin sararin da ruwayen da suke birbishin sararin. Haka nan kuwa ya kasance. 8 Allah ya ce da sarari, “Sararin sama.” Ga maraice, ga safiya, kwana na biyu ke nan.
9 Allah kuwa ya ce, “Bari ruwayen da suke ƙarƙashin sararin su tattaru wuri ɗaya, bari kuma sandararriyar ƙasa ta bayyana.” Haka nan kuwa ya kasance. 10 Allah ya ce da sandararriyar ƙasar, “Duniya,” tattaruwan ruwayen da aka tara kuwa, ya ce da su, “Tekuna.” Allah ya ga yana da kyau.

It doesn't matter if you don't understand Hausa Bible of Genesis 1:1-10.
Christians would agree they don't worship Allah but why would these Christian translators use Allah so much in the Hausa Bible?

I guess this is a plot to deceive the unsuspecting Hausas to accept Christianity just as Grape juice was used to replace wine in the Bible.

Haa! I don hear o

Emusan ona don push this thread to 44 o. And Max hasn't left and from your false prediction, i haven't been saved

I just saw that stuff @ MaxinDhouse gracias sir

LordReed that reiterates that JW org is a cult.
The last last time i checked the meaning of a cult, it converse what the JWs are doing today
This is a proof of his/your hatred for the JWs.

The pharisees in the Bible could be compared to atheists and apostates while Christendom could be compared to Judaism contaminated with men's doctrines. And the JW stand for the uncontaminated pure doctrines of the early church

achorladey:
Then the below from you is useless, irrelevant and very apt at that



What you call my LIES have repeatedly become your TRUTH . No be today you start am. You need reminder from LordReed who you really are?

The early church and its doctrines and practices were pure and were established in the truth not based on human doctrines like the pharisees and today's christians.

The JWs are the only ones zealously doing close to what God and Bible teaches.
If you have any other better performing group, let's us know

achorladey:
Did the Jehovah you call ever asked Jesus to come and teach or preach better performing group.

Did the apostles of Jesus Christ ever preached better performing group?

My post was not even about better performing group.

Se wa kekoo

See as your brother Max avoid im problems and frustrations highlighted above as if the post get leprosy.

Where do you think Adam and Eve went to after death? To the ground and returned to dust right?
Did God say they will live after death?

Steep:
There is Judgment immediately after death and there is also the final judgment.
The first Judgment is to determine where the soul is to be after death and the last judgment is to determine where the resurrected humans would finally end up forever.