₦airaland Forum

felixomor:
Holy Spirit doesnt encourage having baby mamas

Father Abraham (the first tither) had baby mama.

Very soon, more people will join freeze in courageously criticising these men in the open.

Why's the idiot behind the lady so close?
The mumu girl is even smiling.

Where's heaven and where's hell?

Despite your verbosity, the thread is still vacuous. Be concise and succinct next time.

Amberon11:
It is good to pray at all times but however midnight prayer is the most effective.

Everything isn't in the bible, any prayerful christian knows this.

why midnight? scared of demons?

sonofluc1fer:
Didnt' get this.

Do you divulge your iconoclasm in real life as you virtually do here?

sonofluc1fer:
For the past year, ive been in lagos. Its been an eye-opening experience, especially amidst the cries for secession by my people.

Which is weird? Who are my 'people'? Im from Imo, but grew up in PH. I feel more Riverine than Igbo.. Heck, can't even speak my mothertongue properly.

For the first time, I was called a minority by a Yoruba colleague. Funny, it seems most Lagosians know little about the country they live in. Their 'Nigerian' experience spans a single state, the smallest in the nation.

For me, it was my first experience of Sallah. In PH, it's 'that Muslim festival'. Over here, rams made my stomach their home.. It was a wonderful experience.

So, this period had me asking lots of questions about identity, beliefs, nationhood and culture. Seems it's all a mirage. We are all animals, in a sense. Breeding young ones, taking care of them till they grow, just random instance on life's timeline.
...

Ehem, ehem, i don clear gound. Others must contribute , before i kontinue tori.

Nice one. Where does 'sonoflucifer' feature in real life?

Humanistme:
We are not saying the same thing

secularism =/= atheism.

non secularism =/= Theocracy.

satanism is not atheism

Satanists believe in and worship Satan
Satan is their God.

atheists don't believe in Satan or God.

again let me repeat my self

secularism means governments being neutral in matter of religion not anti religion.

communism is anti religion.

Nigeria is not secular yet we are nt a theocracy.

France is 100% secular and they are not communist.

The Vatican and Saudi Arabia is theocratic.
communism is a totally different political ideology that promote atheism not secularism.

communism is anti theistic

secularism is not anti theistic

My thoughts concisely!

shadeyinka:
By definition,
Secularism is a belief system that rejects religion, or the belief that religion should not be part of the affairs of the state or part of public education. The principles of separation of church and state and of keeping religion out of the public school system are an example ofsecularism.

Now, the extent of the rejection of religion could be
Total: in Atheistic Secularism (China, North Korea, Russia)
or
Partial: in Theistic Secularism (Nigeria)

This basic difference is the key in the classifications.

In Nigeria for instance we pray even in government functions and we teach CRK/IRK in schools without according religion a say in governance.

It's biased and practically unrealistic to classify secularism in 2 and place Nigeria under theistic secularism. How would a heavily religious Nigeria compare to secular states like the Denmark, Netherlands and UK in terms of religiosity?

AgentOfAllah:
You asked:





I would say that the adoption and enforcement of human rights laws is pragmatic! And yes, there would certainly be resistance from those who are ideologically opposed to the concept of secularism. But that's the point, isn't it? It's ultimately a war of principles and one is bound to win eventually; that is, the one with the numbers. If I were to wager on which principle that would be, I would put all my money and chips on secularism. My reason being that while other ideologies are usually exclusive and have a tendency to obliterate competitors, secularism is mostly inclusive, so it will always accommodate the most the number of ideologies; thus the most number of supporters. Departing from abstraction, we may examine the trends in some of the world's strictest 'ideolocracies', such as Saudi Arabia and and Iran, and we will see a clear proclivity towards secularism. The persuasive power of this principle, while painfully gradual, shouldn't be underestimated.

Insightful.
Bringing the issue back home (the Nigerian scenario) and being realistic, the enforcement like you put it wouldn't really play out as you may expect. Would it?
Looking at the bolded up there where you mentioned 'the most number of ideologies', -note the superlative "most". The case here depicts two major ideologies (Christianity and Islam), unlike in some other countries where there's a diverse array of religions practiced.

Modified: I almost forgot - considering your initial personal definition of secularism, I have to agree with you

shadeyinka:
Nothing wrong with secularism if prevention of a religious dominance over others is the objective.

However, there are two types of secularism
1. Theistic Secularism
Which respects all religions equally and does not seeking the dominance of one over others while not allowing religion to dominate governance.
2. Atheistic Secularism
Which respects no religion and thus usually promote atheistic values in governance

I'm not fully convinced on your classification of secularism. Especially, the atheistic secularism.

Yoshy:
While eating nunu, kunu, cassava etc, there is drug resistant strain of gonorrhea currently spreading like wildfire due to MouthAction.

Advise intended for married but careless and the unmarried.

Stay healthy!!

Very correct, though most won't understand.

A doctor painstakingly conducts a successful surgery after several hours, a mother and her baby is safe. Next thing she goes to church with goodies thanking the pastor.

AgentOfAllah:
Although, secularism is widely seen as separation of religion and state. However, I'd like to broaden the definition for my purpose to include separation of state and ideology in general. By so doing, my advocacy for secularism makes sense to me. Since it would necessitate the adoption of governance by rational pragmatism. I use a redefined "secularism" because I don't know of any coinage that satisfactorily describes my meaning presently. Maybe I will make one up, in order to avoid confounding the widely accepted meaning of secularism with mine. So yes, given my definition, I do think it will ultimately promote religious tolerance provided it is not just promoted, but enforced.

Considering the bolded, how do you react to this

shaybebaby:
I'm going to say that legislating human rights and enforcing it will solve the problem.
Secularism suggests an ideological concept which for the religious masses may be seen as trying to deliberately water down their beliefs. I believe that may further fan the flames of resistance as it would be perceived as a threat.. .

A medically certified dead fellow should be in the best position to answer this question. Every other answer is a mere speculation.

rekinomtla:
If an atheist state is established it will give atheists a golden opportunity to subjugate non-atheists, specifically theists. Which is currently happening in North Korea. The hatred of God flowing in their veins shall be poured out. And campaigns to eliminate religion will be put in effect, and any means necessary will be used to destroy religion. Religious adherents will be despised and hated in such environments. Communism will most likely also be the position of the state.

I'll start by saying that your statement may not be far from truth. The reverse is what is experienced in Nigeria being a highly religious and theistic state. Atheists and other irreligious people are often discriminated on, hated and despised.

However, please note that secularism is NOT same as atheism. Even a highly secular state is not necessarily an atheist state.

DoctorAlien:
Inasmuch as I wish that all men everywhere would lift holy hands to God in worship, I actually think the church should be separate from the state. The powers and capacities of the state should not be used to further the agenda of the church. That has never been God's plan.

Marriage between the church and state anywhere has always resulted in a monstrous, unholy alliance that seeks to eliminate freedom, and enslave the minds and conscience of men.

Seconded.

shaybebaby:
Then we get a Muslim southerner or a Christian northerner.

. I find this humorous

shaybebaby:
Not without exposing their hypocrisy. Lol. Human rights not only guarantees freedom of worship but freedom from persecution due to religious beliefs.

So how do they want to get round that?

Worse is the fact that Nigeria is majorly divided against a Muslim north and predominantly Christian south.
Its a sensitive scenario where any slight move may be perceived as a domineering effort by one group.

Corroborating budaatum's suggestion, when the people increasingly begin to learn about other believe systems and ideologies, fanaticism would reduce.

shaybebaby:
Succinctly put. I tend to waffle.

The waffle is necessary sometimes.

Considering that secularism is antonymous to religiosity, any step at introducing secular legislation that promote human rights will at some point 'try to curb' religion.

This can't be avoided. So, at some point, religious folks will feel threatened. What do you think?

shaybebaby:
I'm going to say that legislating human rights and enforcing it will solve the problem.
Secularism suggests an ideological concept which for the religious masses may be seen as trying to deliberately water down their beliefs. I believe that may further fan the flames of resistance as it would be perceived as a threat.

On the other hand, whatever divides us be it faith, tribe, customs, all of that can be bridged by recognising something common to us all, we are humans.

Legislate it like it has been done in the West and non can claim religious persecution or dominance because all are guaranteed the same rights regardless of what you profess. Not only on individual level but it actually applies to the interaction between the state and its citizens.
Everyone can seek redress if that which they accord to others as mandated is infringed upon.

Two points are worthy of note - religious folks perceiving secularism as a threat to their cherished beliefs, and bridging our divide by a identifying our common belief.

Let's hear your views.

alBHAGDADI, superhumanist, YoungDaNaval, Uyi168, analice107, lalasticlala, Martinez, Akdegreat, Tosyne2much, Martinez19, Hahn, Jackbizzle, cloudgoddess, shadeyinka, asuustrike2009, shaybebaby, mrmrmister, AgentofAllah, Ifenes, AnonyNymous, sonofluc1fer, Butterflyl1on, AlBaqir, tintingz, DoctorAlien, winner01

budaatum:

I get you, but that's federal democracy for you. If the majority of us in a state worship zog and want to impose the worship of zog on ourselves, it is our democratic right, why shouldn't we be allowed to?

Nigerians are religious as individuals, and are at a stage where our gods rule supreme in every sphere of our lives.


A long time ago, sometime in the 1970s the family had one Bible or Quran it belonged to daddy, and god help any child who touched it. The Quran was in Arabic and people had to learn that language in order to read it.

One day Bibles were given to every student in a baptist secondary school in Lagos, but all the muslims didn't want theirs so the Christians could go home with 10 Bibles if they wanted.

In the 90s, 12 year olds had their own Bibles and the Quran was available in other languages so anyone could read it.

Today, everyone has Bibles and Qurans on their phones, and they are even disputing whether it is the word of god!

Lets wait another few years or so, and people will discover more books and their eyes will further open. They will see more and god will be no more important to them than Zeus and Osiris.

Brings us back to the issue at hand.
Will practical secularism promote religious tolerance?

Hashimyussufamao:
Not in Nigeria a secular nation!! A country who takes God as bedrock in its affairs. A country who swear in its newly elected governors and presidents with an oath which persuade them to fear God after mounting the mandate. A nation with powerful religions leaders which has landmark through out the world. A nation who always has a larger percent of immigrants in makkah and jerusalem yearly. A nation whose national anthem ends with "so help me God"
MY BROTHER KOLEWERK!!!

All you mentioned doesn't depict secularism.

Philosophy should be taught!
Christian and Islamic knowledge should both be taught in history class to both Christian and Muslim students.

"If God did not exist, intentional states of consciousness would not exist".

How.did you arrive at this one Kingebukasblog?

budaatum:
Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries (the attainment of such is termed secularity). One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people. Another manifestation of secularism is the view that public activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be uninfluenced by religious beliefs or practices.

Secularism is a function of education. By this I mean that an increase of the knowledge that people have, increases secularism. It is my opinion that most people who believe their god is the only god, do so because that is the only god that they know. As societies open up and access to information increases people become acquainted with other gods. Eventually, people realise that their god is not the only god and their god loses value over time. It is then that secularism comes about.

It can also come about due to equilibrium in the existing religions, whereby no religion is more powerful than any other so it is agreed that none would be imposed.

That said, Nigeria is already secular. Nobody proposes a bill in the house on religious grounds. You can't however ask people not to pray or get inspiration from their god about a proposed bill, and some may or may chose not to support a bill because of the religion of the bill proposer. An increase in awareness will decrease the influence of gods.

P.s. A pastor is the current vice president of Nigeria but I do not see him ruling the nation with god said.

You're not wrong with your position that Nigeria is already secular, but thats by dedinition. We're still heavily religious.

I ask, how secular is Nigeria?

With Sharia in some northern states;
Government promoting and in some cases sponsoring religious activities and assemblies (eg Prayers);
Public primary and secondary schools conducting religious devotions every morning before commencing classes;
Government subsizing forex for pilgrimage;
Churches and mosques littered everywhere and often disturbing public peace with loud speakers positioned on the streets;
Even religion influences choice candidates for sensitive posts eg President and vice president.

How much legislations are there in the constitution that promotes secularism?

dalaman:
I said secularism that is devoid of fanatism.

I've modified my reply. Check again

dalaman:
Sercularism that is devoid of fanatism and dogmatism will help mitigate the evil effects of religious intolerance so long as it is all inclusive and promotes enlightenment.

Nice input. Let me ask though, you suggest that secularism could be inclusive of fanatism and dogmatism? How so if so?